bravo45
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The Cartoons Finally Get Banned In Part Of Europe

Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:41 pm

Spain's High Court has ordered the seizure of all copies of a magazine that carried a cartoon of Crown Prince Felipe and his wife having sex.

Slandering or defaming the Spanish royal family carries a two-year prison sentence.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6909047.stm



Long live the freedom of speech and expression.  Yeah sure


So; Anyone up for changing their flags to Spain?? Big grin
 
MEA-707
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RE: The Cartoons Finally Get Banned In Part Of Europe

Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:26 pm

I think you can't really compare that to the 'Danish' cartoons. Please let's not talk about these now.

Royal family members can't really defend themselves and I can understand why this cartoon is being banned.
Individuals have the right of prosecuting defaming gossips, cartoons and pictures. How would you like it if you and your wife's heads are pasted on porn model bodies and printed everywhere? I think this cartoon just showed lack of good taste.

It would be something different though when Spanish citizens would be attacked about this cartoon abroad and other governments put repercussions on Spain and its businesses while they didn't even make the cartoon in the first place. But again, let's just not make this comparison.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
ltbewr
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RE: The Cartoons Finally Get Banned In Part Of Europe

Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:53 pm

At least they are a lot better looking than Prince Charles and Camilla.
While the cartoon may be tasteless and possibly obscene, to not allow people to criticise the Crown is censorship. Part of that may have to do with their history, to reduce the risk of the overthrow and dismissal of the Crown as under the dictatorship of Gen. Franco for many years, but more of archaic tradition where one cannot ever speak critically of the Crown. The crown should not be above any criticism in a modern democracy. I wonder if the actions of the Government of Spain were in violation of EC laws as to freedom of speech. I hope the magazine is compensated and under appeal, the government is found to have been wrong in this action.
 
MEA-707
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RE: The Cartoons Finally Get Banned In Part Of Europe

Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:21 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 2):
to not allow people to criticise the Crown is censorship. Part of that may have to do with their history, to reduce the risk of the overthrow and dismissal of the Crown as under the dictatorship of Gen. Franco for many years, but more of archaic tradition where one cannot ever speak critically of the Crown.

I am sure sensible criticism, debate about abolishing the royalty and parodies on TV, papers and on stage are common, at least I know it is in Belgium, UK and the Netherlands and I think Spain is not much different.
But in Holland we also had a guy being prosecuted (think a 200 euro fine) who yelled obscenities about the queen all day on the street (think the level of "I like to f** her in the *** etc"). This prosecution, even if they used obsolete laws about criticizm, was more about good taste and offending. I am sure any Spanish magazine or paper can publish a decent but critical article discussing the point of monarchy, the costs, the (lack of) deeds of the individuals without problems.
"Don't try this at home" in monarchies outside Europe though (Thailand or so).
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
bravo45
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RE: The Cartoons Finally Get Banned In Part Of Europe

Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:49 am

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 1):
I think you can't really compare that to the 'Danish' cartoons. Please let's not talk about these now.

I will say, like during the Danish cartoon episode, many including me don't agree.

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 3):
"Don't try this at home" in monarchies outside Europe though (Thailand or so).

My point being the so called 'Freedom of Speech' in Europe. Not that this is the first proof, we had the David Irving sentence coming at the peak of Danish episode.
 
pelican
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RE: The Cartoons Finally Get Banned In Part Of Europe

Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:00 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 2):
While the cartoon may be tasteless and possibly obscene, to not allow people to criticise the Crown is censorship.

Spot on!

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 4):
My point being the so called 'Freedom of Speech' in Europe.

You generalise way too much. Why are you talking about Europe instead of Spain? How does this effect my freedom of speech in Germany (which is also in Europe...)?

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 3):
But in Holland we also had a guy being prosecuted (think a 200 euro fine) who yelled obscenities about the queen all day on the street (think the level of "I like to f** her in the *** etc").

There is a border between criticism, tasteless jokes and libel. Only the latter should be considered and treated as crime.

pelican
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: The Cartoons Finally Get Banned In Part Of Europe

Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:13 am

There is a similar story here in Monaco.

One of the Princely State's official organist (and composer) was recently sent to court by the local government because he had published a website called Monaco Politic Circus with pictures of Prince Albert and other pictures of some government members with "red noses" making them look like clowns.

Giacone named Albert "chief seducer clown".

The website lasted about one month. Monaco's authorities had it off the internet.

Marc Giacone, 53, this is the organist's name, could face up to 6 months prison for defamation along with a fine of 1500 Euros for his "misconduct" and insults to the Prince and members of the Monaco government. He is himself a monegasque. The court verdict will fall on October 4.

He was fired from his job as the organist at la Chapelle de la Misericorde.

I do not have any links to this in English but I have some links in French.

http://www.rue89.com/2007/08/11/a-mo...rte-de-prosperer-impose-le-silence

http://www.wikio.fr/news/Marc+Giacone

Total silence is kept on the Marc Giacone condemnation in the Princely State (2 square kilometers). All the talks are about Prince Albert foreign travels and his relationship with swimmer Charlene Wittstock.

I never thought that Prince Albert and his government would be so dictatorial.  devil 
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
bravo45
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RE: The Cartoons Finally Get Banned In Part Of Europe

Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:24 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 5):
You generalise way too much. Why are you talking about Europe instead of Spain? How does this effect my freedom of speech in Germany (which is also in Europe...)?

Well I kinda agree, I wouldn't have used the word 'Europe' had I not wanted to hint to the Danish cartoon episode but it was disgusting to see many defending them using the freedom of speech slogan. So yeah, I got carried away a little. I meant no offence to anyone really, just pointing out to some hypocrisy this world is so full of.
 
pelican
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RE: The Cartoons Finally Get Banned In Part Of Europe

Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:40 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 6):
One of the Princely State's official organist (and composer) was recently sent to court by the local government because he had published a website called Monaco Politic Circus with pictures of Prince Albert and other pictures of some government members with "red noses" making them look like clowns.

Giacone named Albert "chief seducer clown".

The website lasted about one month. Monaco's authorities had it off the internet.

Marc Giacone, 53, this is the organist's name, could face up to 6 months prison for defamation along with a fine of 1500 Euros for his "misconduct" and insults to the Prince and members of the Monaco government. He is himself a monegasque. The court verdict will fall on October 4.

I thought those things belong to the past in Western Europe. Firing him is okay, but prosecution? But then Monaco isn't exactly known as a beacon of democracy.
 banghead   banghead 

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 7):
Well I kinda agree, I wouldn't have used the word 'Europe' had I not wanted to hint to the Danish cartoon episode but it was disgusting to see many defending them using the freedom of speech slogan

Well I defended them then as I defend those people who published the cartoons now. For once I hope the EU will interfere (in Spain).

pelican
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: The Cartoons Finally Get Banned In Part Of Europe

Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:50 am

I wish they would leave him alone. He can always appeal the verdict but that won't help. Monaco's "justice" would find its way around as Giacone is a Monegasque citizen.

Maybe the European Court of Justice could interfere and do a better job helping him. The problem is that Monaco is not part of the E.U.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 8):

I thought those things belong to the past in Western Europe. Firing him is okay, but prosecution? But then Monaco isn't exactly known as a beacon of democracy.
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
NoUFO
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RE: The Cartoons Finally Get Banned In Part Of Eur

Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:21 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 5):
How does this effect my freedom of speech in Germany (which is also in Europe...)?

More than you are obviously aware of. While Spain is not Germany, Titanic, a satirical magazine, was prosecuted and sentenced to a heavy fine that almost broke the magazine's financial neck after they published a doctored picture of former chancellor Kohl with, I believe, straps and a hooker.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 5):
There is a border between criticism, tasteless jokes and libel. Only the latter should be considered and treated as crime.

While I agree, there's a thin line that separates libel from tasteless jokes.

Fact is that Europeans tend to play the libel card quicker than Americans. To Americans, freedom of speech is (or at least comes close to being) the holy grail of freedom and liberty.
In contrast, Europeans tend to value "dignity", freedom from being harassed and insulted, higher than freedom of speech.

As a result, any European can file a counter-statement if he or she wishes to oppose the claim made in any news source. In the U.S., you could try to convince the publishers to take their claims back, but they would not be obliged to publish your reply in accordance with the press law, as Americans consider this a first step towards censorship.

It's not so much an indicator that one region of the world values freedom higher than another part, but interpret the term differently.

[Edited 2007-08-19 23:23:36]

[Edited 2007-08-19 23:25:40]
I support the right to arm bears
 
pelican
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RE: The Cartoons Finally Get Banned In Part Of Eur

Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:18 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 10):
More than you are obviously aware of. While Spain is not Germany, Titanic, a satirical magazine, was prosecuted and sentenced to a heavy fine that almost broke the magazine's financial neck after they published a doctored picture of former chancellor Kohl with, I believe, straps and a hooker.

But that has nothing to do with the case discussed. But it's unfortunate that such things happen here, too (prosecution not the cartoon).
I guess this doesn't fit in your view of Kohl, but the case which almost crippled Titanic was against Björn Engholm and not Helmut Kohl. The latter got his nickname "Die Birne" from Titanic, but Kohl did not file a single suit against them.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 10):

While I agree, there's a thin line that separates libel from tasteless jokes.

Indeed it is hard to draw a line. The more I read about the case and similar ones the more I realise that it is quite complicated. Nonetheless I think the courts in Germany are too fast with compensations for famous "victims".

pelican
 
NoUFO
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RE: The Cartoons Finally Get Banned In Part Of Europe

Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:43 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 11):
I guess this doesn't fit in your view of Kohl, but the case which almost crippled Titanic was against Björn Engholm and not Helmut Kohl.

Ok, than I confused both politicians, but no, it has got nothing to do with my personal view on either politician.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 11):
But that has nothing to do with the case discussed.

Why not? In both cases, representants were depicted unfavourably in cartoons, and in both cases courts have ruled this inadmissible, whereas you tried to insinuate that freedom of speech was administered differently in Spain.
I support the right to arm bears
 
bravo45
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RE: The Cartoons Finally Get Banned In Part Of Europe

Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:03 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 6):
I never thought that Prince Albert and his government would be so dictatorial.

Power corrupts.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 8):
For once I hope the EU will interfere (in Spain).

A face saving action in case this news catches wind.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 10):
More than you are obviously aware of. While Spain is not Germany, Titanic, a satirical magazine, was prosecuted and sentenced to a heavy fine that almost broke the magazine's financial neck after they published a doctored picture of former chancellor Kohl with, I believe, straps and a hooker.

Hmm....Thanks for that, I am sure I can find more should I dig in to look for them. Things like these happen all over.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 11):
But that has nothing to do with the case discussed.

It has everything to do with this, I read this news passingly and posted it here because this forum was full of people playing the 'We have freedom here' card. This and many other cases prove its a card reserved for one's own convenience. I could have taken your challenge up and searched for case in Germany, but I was trying not to look for conflicts. I now feel I should have, in any case I think NoUFO just proved Germany ain't perfect either. But that's not the point. I believe there should be limits and its not like Germany claims not to have any, they too have the Holocaust denial laws. I am not against them, but then lets not claim to be the ultimate freedom lovers when you feel like trampling others.
 
N1120A
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RE: The Cartoons Finally Get Banned In Part Of Europe

Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:50 am

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 1):

Royal family members can't really defend themselves and I can understand why this cartoon is being banned.

I cannot understand why it is being banned. It is an affront to the concept of free speech.

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 1):
Individuals have the right of prosecuting defaming gossips, cartoons and pictures.

Not if they are parody and not if the individual is holding out as a public figure, as a royal does.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 8):
For once I hope the EU will interfere (in Spain).

This isn't uncommon among EU member states, unfortunately. In the UK, freedom of speech is at the leisure of Parliament.
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