IFEMaster
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Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:25 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6954639.stm

Quote:
A Mexican woman whose fight to stay in the US with her US-born son attracted national attention has been sent back to Mexico as an illegal immigrant.

Right on. "Anchor babies" have been used for far too long and it's good to see at least one case of the authorities cracking down on it. Shame it took so long.
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Superfly
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:31 am

This is absolutely horrible! I read this story this morning and I hope she is reunited with her son here in the United States.

Kudos to the United Methodist Church in Chicago for protecting her from being split from her child. She will be back here with her son sooner than you think.
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futurecaptain
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:35 am

Great to hear.

Also interesting is she was working at ORD as a cleaner. I assume she had access beyond security. Do people like this not get checked out first or is this another breech of security??
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:43 am

Quoting IFEMaster (Thread starter):
Quote:
A Mexican woman whose fight to stay in the US with her US-born son attracted national attention has been sent back to Mexico as an illegal immigrant.

Good.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 1):
This is absolutely horrible!

No it's not. She's a criminal . . . illegally crossing an International Border is a crime. You still don't get it do you, 'Fly.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 1):
Kudos to the United Methodist Church in Chicago for protecting her from being split from her child.

Harboring a criminal . . . ohhh, good. And in the name of God.

Good riddance. Now grab the other 12 million or so and send them packing too.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
IFEMaster
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:48 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 1):
This is absolutely horrible! I read this story this morning and I hope she is reunited with her son here in the United States.

Kudos to the United Methodist Church in Chicago for protecting her from being split from her child. She will be back here with her son sooner than you think.

She's a criminal. No matter how you paint it, or how vocal and public anyone (including her and her son) get about it, she's a criminal. Besides, I think she showed where her loyalities really lie in her own statement:

Quote:
"I only have two choices. I either go to my country, Mexico, or stay and keep fighting. I decided to stay and fight."

If she still claims Mexico as her country, she should have just damn well gone back there rather than carry on her ridiculous pilgrimage for a free ride in to a country she has no claim or tie to. If she wants to come back that bad, then when son turns 18, he can file to sponsor a green card for her.

The authorities did exactly the right thing. And they need to do this more often.
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KaiGywer
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:50 am

Good for her! Like Pep said, now let's go after the other 12 million.
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andessmf
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:54 am

First of all, as some of you know, my wife and her family are from Mexico.

Here is our take on this, and it may be cruel to some.

What has happened is that in the last several years, ILLEGAL immigrants have essentially asked for and gotten the rights of lawful immigrants and citizens. I mean, why go thru all the hassle of becoming legal when you can do it for free. Not only that, from personal experience, some illegal immigrants are asking anywhere from $15 to $20/hr to do house cleaning.

We as Americans cannot simply go to another country and demand the same rights that country's citizens have.

While some may complain about the US immigration laws, they are nothing compared to laws in other places. For example, my wife's cousin, who is legally in Switzerland, had a daughter while legally there. Does her daughter hold Swiss citizenship? No.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:01 am

There is a sad conflict here. Her son is a legal American Citizen who is a lot better off being in the USA - except for not having his mother with him, however she was fair game to be arrested and deported. She crossed the border illegally at least 2 times and committed serious criminal acts of identity theft and using a stolen Social Sec. number (probably from a dead person) and used that identify to get a job in what is supposed to be a secure area of a major airport. Too bad they couldn't have arrested and prosecuted her on the criminal charges of identity and S.S.N. theft and upon conviction, ending up with a jail term for a while then deported. It could also be used to keep her from ever returning the USA legally again or apply for USA citizenship.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:09 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
No it's not. She's a criminal . . . illegally crossing an International Border is a crime.

Not on any moral level. At best it is an infringement of an antiquated, reactionary and entirely arbitrary line on a map, devised by a bureaucratic requirement but with no moral validity. You can't stop population movements, something the Romans discovered to their cost. There will always be a natural and unstoppable trend of movement from areas with poor resources to areas with plentiful resources, it's as natural as osmosis. Borders are so 19th century.
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ORFflyer
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:16 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 8):
At best it is an infringement of an antiquated, reactionary and entirely arbitrary line on a map, devised by a bureaucratic requirement but with no moral validity.

International borders are "entirely arbitrary" - I don't think so. I'm on the side of good for sending her packing. Illegal is illegal, no matter the reason. Bye-bye!!
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:20 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 7):
There is a sad conflict here. Her son is a legal American Citizen who is a lot better off being in the USA - except for not having his mother with him,

Send him to Mexico too.
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yowza
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direct

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:23 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 6):
For example, my wife's cousin, who is legally in Switzerland, had a daughter while legally there. Does her daughter hold Swiss citizenship? No.

That is because being born in Switzerland is not enough to gain citizenship, this is not the case in th US. Currently just about anyone born in the USA and its territories (children of diplomats notwithstanding) is born a US citizen. If they repealed this law then this 'case' would be a total non-event.

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JGPH1A
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:26 am

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 9):
International borders are "entirely arbitrary" - I don't think so.

Of course they are - in very few cases do they reflect any kind of accurate natural ethnic or cultural boundaries. In the vast majority of cases they were drawn on a map as part of some treaty or other, and very seldom with the consent of the people across whose land the line actually travelled. Borders used to change all the time, as ethnic and cultural assimilation occurs, as economic power and influence fluctuated. Nowadays thanks to 19th century nationalism we're pretty much stuck with the crappy, unrealistic borders that were drawn then, with no option to recognise and accept natural evolution as demographics change. The only sensible option is to make borders irrelevant.
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travelin man
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:26 am

While I feel for her son, it is the mother that put them in this situation in the first place. She (like many others) ignored the potential ramifications of having a child in the US while she was there illegally.

You cannot pick and choose which laws you want enforced, and which are inconvenient to you. The minute that happens, our entire legal system flies out the window.
 
travelin man
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:33 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 12):
The only sensible option is to make borders irrelevant.

How then would you account for varying laws in different countries? Or are you saying there should be no "countries"? Just one big mass of humanity?

Perhaps borders will disappear when people stop trying to come in to commit acts of terrorism. Until then "everyone is welcome" is simply a pipe dream.
 
ORFflyer
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:40 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 12):
Borders used to change all the time

USED to being the key word. If that were the case today.....

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 14):
How then would you account for varying laws in different countries?



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 12):
The only sensible option is to make borders irrelevant.

Doesn't at all sound sensible to me.

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 13):
You cannot pick and choose which laws you want enforced

Exactly. Look, I feel for the child as much as anybody, but if you send this women home, it sends a strong message, don't come here illegally or this could be your consequence. If you sweep this under the rug, it sends a strong message that you can get away with it in these circumstances. I vote for the first option.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:41 am

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 14):
How then would you account for varying laws in different countries? Or are you saying there should be no "countries"? Just one big mass of humanity?

Yes I'm saying there should be no countries. It is possible to maintain and grow unique and valuable cultural identity without the need to ring-fence it with the notion of a country. Countries imply that everyone within them has in some sense to be heterogenous, in order to comply with some arbitrary national "standard". This leads to nationalism, and nothing good ever came from nationalism. Like it or not, we ARE just one big mass of humanity, why create artificial differences when the natural differences between us are interesting enough already.

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 14):
Perhaps borders will disappear when people stop trying to come in to commit acts of terrorism

Yeah, borders really help there. If 12 million illegals can wander across the Rio Grande, what's to stop the 12 millionth and one bringing a suitcase bomb with him ? Hell, a hundred bucks and good deal of patience will get you a US tourist visa, then who's going to stop you ?
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Flighty
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:44 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 12):
The only sensible option is to make borders irrelevant.

Hahaha. There you go. You admit borders are in fact very relevant in today's world. Now, more than ever.

We can't rely on vast oceans to protect us. Instead, we need borders.

It's not impractical. Just try to go to Norway and become a citizen. Try. It's a very wealthy country that most humans would love to join. But unfortunately, they have border patrols with guns. Why? Because the Norwegians do not want 100 million newcomers to overrun their country and mess things up. This is Norway's privilege.

And, Mexico, a very middle-class country, is paradise for many of the world's poor. Do you suppose Mexico is eager to take 100 million Nigerians and Angolans? Of course not, Mexico would round them up and deport them if they came.

Your logic says that just by having babies, you can claim a rich nation's assets. Just send your offspring over there and collect the rewards. Just not the case. I do not understand the idea that anyone deserves the rewards of a successful society, even if they have not participated in that society. It disrespects the whole idea of the hard work it took to build a successful society. I am not entitled to things just because I was born. I am entitled to things because my society is well organized, helps me, and in return I will pay it back and more. To destroy the integrity of the society by an assault of amneotic fluid is simple biological warfare. This woman is doing no less.

China is also aware of this bio-colonization, which is what they are doing in Tibet, again using women as incubators to neutralize the Tibetan society biologically. I find that objectionable too, but for different reasons. Societies have rights equal to -- or greater than -- outside individual humans.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:47 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
illegally crossing an International Border is a crime.



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 4):
She's a criminal. No matter how you paint it, or how vocal and public anyone (including her and her son) get about it, she's a criminal.

You know in the United States we have something called laws - which both of you obviously do not respect, or read.

Entering the US illegally is a civil violation - not a crime. It is similar to, but less than, a parking ticket.

Now if you want to do something about illegal immigration, the needs to:

(1) Establish a national identidy card linked to a real-time database so forgeries will raise immediate alarms;

(2) Make it a felony with jail time for small business, infact any business, to employ someone without legal status;

(3) Eliminate the 'contractor' loophole

When there are no jobs and no possibility of jobs the flow of illegals will be substantially reduced.

Everything else, fences, border patrols, etc - is just some one getting rich off political connections.

And just to be clear - if she is here illegally, she needs to be deported - the age of her US citizen child does not matter.

She can be legally admitted to the US relatively quickly - but only from her home country.

[Edited 2007-08-20 19:49:07]
 
Flighty
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:49 am

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 15):
if you send this women home, it sends a strong message, don't come here illegally or this could be your consequence.

I'm not sure it's a strong message. It's just showing we are not brain-dead, we still have a few brain cells working.

Sending 1 million of these visiting foreign friends home would be more of a "strong statement." Like, we have enjoyed having you here in our country, but now your visit has come to an end. Everyone has a home, including these women. Surely Mexico will allow these to bring their American babies home to Mexico. These are strong and useful women that Mexico should be proud to have. How can Mexico build its country when its most industrious people leave?

Mexico has plenty of money. It is simply a horribly governed middle-class country with a horrible education system. It is up to Mexicans to fix this. They are not short of money. I am not sure why I should feel sorry for them. Because in fact, they are asking for a profound charity. It's not standard procedure, it's asking to become brothers. I am not sure one always needs to consent to this request, even though it is flattering.
 
Flighty
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:53 am

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 18):

When there are no jobs and no possibility of jobs the flow of illegals will be substantially reduced.

Everything else, fences, border patrols, etc - is just some one getting rich off political connections.

You are absolutely correct. It's a mathematical fact that too few people understand. You have correctly identified the complete, 100% answer to this problem.

Those simple changes and this "intractable" issue is solved before 2007 is over. It may yet happen with these IRS "non-match" letters being sent out. That is one way to solve this problem, if they actually DO IT like they say they will.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:54 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 6):
While some may complain about the US immigration laws, they are nothing compared to laws in other places. For example, my wife's cousin, who is legally in Switzerland, had a daughter while legally there. Does her daughter hold Swiss citizenship? No.

In about 40-50 countries the US standard applies - children born in the country are legally entitled to be citizens of that country. (Many of those countries took their immigration / citizenship laws from the US)

But most developed countries have stricter limits.

In Japan, children of Japanese mothers married to US servicemen have NO rights to stay in that country after turning 21. (As of 1986 - might be wrong on that right now).

The US has a big problem compared to those other countries, we don't have a way to identify our citizens positively - not having a national idenity card system and database.

Both of my children HAD the right to citizenship in the Republic of the Philippines.

However, like the US - they had to initiate efforts to claim that citizenship before age 25.

A child born in the US, taken to Mexico and raised there to age 25 does not have US citizenship - even though he/she may have a US birth certificate. However due to our lack of an identity standard - that would not be uncovered until he/she applied for a passport.

[Edited 2007-08-20 19:56:42]
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:56 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 17):
It's not impractical. Just try to go to Norway and become a citizen. Try.

I can very easily go to Norway, I don't even need a passport to do so. There is no border between Norway the rest of Europe, Norway has signed the Schengen Treaty. I may not be able to become a citizen, but why would I need to, I can live and work there without restrictions.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 17):
But unfortunately, they have border patrols with guns. Why? Because the Norwegians do not want 100 million newcomers to overrun their country and mess things up. This is Norway's privilege.

They do ? Where ? I never saw them.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 17):
t disrespects the whole idea of the hard work it took to build a successful society.

So you feel somehow deserving because by an accident of birth you were born in the USA. Was this your hard work ? No - it was blind luck.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 17):
Societies have rights equal to -- or greater than -- outside individual humans.

Fascist claptrap. Societies only consist through the consent of the individuals of who make up that society. "Society" itself has no existence independent of its constituents.
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Flighty
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:03 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 22):
Fascist claptrap. Societies only consist through the consent of the individuals of who make up that society. "Society" itself has no existence independent of its constituents.

We agree. However, those "constituents" do have a meaningful relationship. An enemy cannot simply inject amneotic fluid and "democratically" become part of that society. There need to be rules. Or, indeed, there will be no highly developed countries. Why bother, if you're just going to get amneotic fluid sprayed all over you?

Ultimately the defenses of borders arose as a biological necessity when humans passed the hunter-gatherer stage and settled on lands. The same biological necessity remains valid today. A rich country still cannot function with open borders. Dubai is a rare example, but the EU is _certainly_ ... certainly!!!! not an example of an open-border region.

Africa is just to the EU's south. Given open borders, the EU would essentially collapse into anarchy and the largest slums in the world. This is not a racist or fascist statement. It is simply a mathematical statement about what 500 million poor people would do to the EU in the space of 2 to 3 years. They would destroy it.

So, you are speaking nonsense.
 
Flighty
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 22):
So you feel somehow deserving because by an accident of birth you were born in the USA. Was this your hard work ? No - it was blind luck.

It's not about what I deserve. It is about what my society deserves. I am no better than the poorest baby in the world. However, my society is better than the poorest and most lawless societies. I think it is good that my society is functioning well. If I simply give that society away, I participate in its destruction. I am not overly concerned with my own comfort. I will be fine either way. It's the society I feel proud of, and therein lies a duty for me to protect it.
 
mt99
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direct

Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:13 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 6):
I mean, why go thru all the hassle of becoming legal when you can do it for free.

You cannot be seriously be asking this question. Why? I dont know what work you do (and i really dont care) but i would bet that whatever is that you do - you would not be able to do without papers. That is why you go thru the hassle.

In essence you got thru the hassle to be able to get a "good" work. Would you trade your "hassle" for a job at as a restaurant water boy? I certainly would not.

Your point is only valid if you are envying the job that illegal immigrants do.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 6):
Not only that, from personal experience, some illegal immigrants are asking anywhere from $15 to $20/hr to do house cleaning.

How much you think they should ask? Are you hiring illegal immigrants? If you are you are part of the problem

[Edited 2007-08-20 20:15:51]
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JGPH1A
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:21 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 24):
If I simply give that society away, I participate in its destruction.

How is letting other, economically vital people participate in the growth and continued prosperity of that society, "destroying" it ?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 23):
Ultimately the defenses of borders arose as a biological necessity when humans passed the hunter-gatherer stage and settled on lands.

Formal borders only happened about 5000 years after settled agriculture began, and were designed to protect commerce.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 23):
It is simply a mathematical statement about what 500 million poor people would do to the EU in the space of 2 to 3 years. They would destroy it.

That presupposes, in a peculiarly American way, that all 500 million are all just sitting at home thinking up ways to swim across the Mediterranean, which palpably is not the case. Eliminating unfair trade and protectionism (as part of the effort to elimnate borders, would mean that far fewer people feel the need to change continents to have a better life.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 18):
You know in the United States we have something called laws - which both of you obviously do not respect, or read.

 rotfl 

Haven't read my profile have you . . .

And based on the balance of your post, you haven't read much of posts on this either . . .

No matter . . .

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 18):
(2) Make it a felony with jail time for small business, infact any business, to employ someone without legal status;

(3) Eliminate the 'contractor' loophole

I've said this before. Over and over.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 18):
Everything else, fences, border patrols, etc - is just some one getting rich off political connections.

Not to mention - fence won't work. Said this before too.
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KaiGywer
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:24 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 17):
But unfortunately, they have border patrols with guns. Why?



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 22):
They do ? Where ? I never saw them.

Along the Norway/Russia border. Only Norwegian military personnel armed while on duty in time of peace.

Although, getting into Norway isn't that hard. If your uncle's cousin's girlfriend's sister's adopted son has the same last name as a person already in Norway, they will just file for "family reunification". Sad, but true.
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:37 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 28):
Along the Norway/Russia border.

Oh, OK - thanks for the clarification.
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andessmf
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:40 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 22):

I think the discussion you have started almost deserves another thread, and you have certainly brought up some interesting points.

First of all, travel between countries and within countries has gotten a lot easier and cheaper in the last several decades. Not long ago, international travel was basically limited to the people with money. Not really any more.Before, IIRC, there was healthy legal commerce (this may still apply) between the US/Mexico border, where nationals could easily cross for shopping purposes.

Now we don't really know who's crossing and why they are doing so.

In Europe you have less of a problem, since most countries hold similar standards of living.

Between Mexico and the US, the differences can be staggering. And unfortunately, Mexico has gotten dependent on their illegal workforce in the US for revenue, second only to their oil revenue.
 
DC10extender
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:51 am

Finally. This should stop those illegals with anchor babies from thumbing their noses at U.S. immigration laws. I think that separation from loved ones is a consequence they have to endure just like all other criminals.
Did you ever read on your birth certificate that life is fair? Thats cause its not there.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:51 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 30):
Between Mexico and the US, the differences can be staggering. And unfortunately, Mexico has gotten dependent on their illegal workforce in the US for revenue, second only to their oil revenue.

The solution might therefore be to make the difference less staggering. Is it realistic to suppose that in the absence of a border, every single Mexican would automatically head north ? No it isn't. In a natural and flowing labour market, there will be flow of skills in both directions, and the balance will even out. It might take time, but would it not make more sense to tackle the problem with some long term vision rather than exacerbating it with short term protectionism ? Unless someone actually tries to SOLVE the problem, rather than admitting it's there and doing nothing to improve the situation, how will the problem ever go away ?
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MaidensGator
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:03 am

The problem with this is that the time, money, and manpower devoted to this high-profile case could have been used much more effectively in either preventing entry of or locating and deporting hundreds, if not more, illegal immigrants.

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 10):
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 7):
There is a sad conflict here. Her son is a legal American Citizen who is a lot better off being in the USA - except for not having his mother with him,

Send him to Mexico too.

Be careful what you wish for... once they start deporting natural born US citizens there's no telling where they'll stop...
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
andessmf
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:19 am

Quoting DC10extender (Reply 31):
This should stop those illegals with anchor babies from thumbing their noses at U.S. immigration laws

The law has actually changed, IIRC, and babies no longer get immediate citizenship upon a US birth.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 32):
Unless someone actually tries to SOLVE the problem, rather than admitting it's there and doing nothing to improve the situation, how will the problem ever go away ?

The problem, of course, is a lot more complicated. And politicians are usually not good at solving very complicated issues.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:25 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 34):
The law has actually changed, IIRC, and babies no longer get immediate citizenship upon a US birth.

When did that change ? My brother's kids got US citizenship at birth, 4 years ago.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 34):
The problem, of course, is a lot more complicated. And politicians are usually not good at solving very complicated issues.

That's true, but again, we tend to end up with the politicians we deserve. Maybe it's time to deserve better politicians ?
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
slider
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:40 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 1):
She will be back here with her son sooner than you think.

Sadly, you're probably right. Because they deported her to Tijuana, where she can just traipse back across. THey should have airlifted her deep in-country.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 8):
At best it is an infringement of an antiquated, reactionary and entirely arbitrary line on a map, devised by a bureaucratic requirement but with no moral validity.

No moral validity?

Excuse me? This nation is a nation of laws, it is united under a set of ideals. Ideals rooted very firmly in morality and justice. These aren’t buzzwords or jingoistic banter…they form the foundation for what has become the most prosperous nation in the history of civilization. Moreover, these values and the things we stand for are things that people fight and die to preserve. I’ll be damned if you insult them by claiming that nations and borders are simply passé and that there is no moral validity to taking a stand to defend one’s homeland.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 16):
Yes I'm saying there should be no countries.

Great, so play Imagine again, John Lennon, and sing kumbayah while you’re at it.

What you are saying is absolute hogwash. It is diametrically opposed to human nature—where people associate with other people based on common languages, races, cultures, etc, etc. There will never be, nor SHOULD there be, “one world, one people” and the sooner utopians such as yourself figure it out, the better off we’ll be because we can then work on solving problems realistically instead of idealistically.

This is one instance in the history of my posting on A.net that I wish there were a DISrespect rating.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:01 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 36):
This nation is a nation of laws, it is united under a set of ideals. Ideals rooted very firmly in morality and justice.

It is also a nation of immigrants. What ever happened to giving the little guy an even break ? Isn't that the American Way ? Or is it just about pulling the ladder up after you ? Imagine if they'd done that in 1776 ? How many of our gallant rah-rah send 'em packing demagogues would be sporting the American flag in their profiles if they had ? Who decided America was full ?

Quoting Slider (Reply 36):
This is one instance in the history of my posting on A.net that I wish there were a DISrespect rating.

Just the one instance ? Surely not...

Quoting Slider (Reply 36):
It is diametrically opposed to human nature—where people associate with other people based on common languages, races, cultures, etc, etc

Exactly - FREE association, not dictated to by artificial boundaries. Language and culture are uniting factors, but they don't have to be excluding factors, if cultural practises are not diametrically opposed (and yes, in a number of instances, they are).

Quoting Slider (Reply 36):
There will never be, nor SHOULD there be, “one world, one people”

And yet here we are, one world, one people. We are all biologically and genetically identitical, we just happen to speak different languages and believe different things. So what ?

Quoting Slider (Reply 36):
the sooner utopians such as yourself figure it out, the better off we’ll be because we can then work on solving problems realistically instead of idealistically.

If we didn't bother with ideals, and simply dealt with mundane realities, we'd all still be living in caves wondering how to make rocks more palatable. Ideals are what differentiate us from the animals, and should be the yardstick by which history judges us.
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Flighty
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direct

Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:18 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 26):

That presupposes, in a peculiarly American way, that all 500 million are all just sitting at home thinking up ways to swim across the Mediterranean, which palpably is not the case. Eliminating unfair trade and protectionism (as part of the effort to elimnate borders, would mean that far fewer people feel the need to change continents to have a better life.

Well fine, you can go live in the world of 1,000 years ago. It was better in many ways. But personally, I enjoy my high standard of living that my society has created for me. I often think about how lucky I am.

To have a borderless world would be so risky it could result in the worst atrocities in human history. Global government with 1 ruler? Global democracy? Who are you kidding? Even democracy in the USA barely works. It is far from a proven concept.

Maybe a Communist dictatorship then? Go live in China, it's not bad.

I am sorry but it is you who are the radical revolutionary here. I am as politically sympathetic as any person within reason. But unlike some, I will not participate in mathematically impossible policies. Such as, allowing unfettered immigration. Mostly because I do not want to see the world's poor outside my doorstep begging for food. I know they are out there. I am overjoyed we have border guards to keep immigration orderly.

It's not immigration I hate. It is crime, disorder, laziness and unfairness that I detest. Our bureaucrats have been lazy and unfair beyond belief in tolerating our recent waves of foreign visitors. Immigration? I am all for it. But we are not talking about immigration, per se. We are talking about attempted immigration, a source of disorder and unfairness.

That is not to say a Mexico-centric immigration permissive policy is fair and balanced. Actually, that is deeply racist. Racist against Asians, Africans and Europeans. I will not stand for preferential treatment of certain immigrant groups. If we are to have 10 million new immigrants, let the process of selection be fair and open. Not centered on one geographic region. All people are equally worthy of consideration for a US green card, on an equal basis. Equality is an American tradition. Not global equality, mind you, but American equality. Therein lies the difference.

I have had friends kicked out of Canada. Friends kicked out of Japan. Even friends kicked out of the USA. Not one of them complained to me it was unfair. They knew they broke the rules and they knew ANY country has the right to ban you, for life, if it so desires. This is what I call a human right.
 
Superfly
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:28 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 36):
Sadly, you're probably right. Because they deported her to Tijuana, where she can just traipse back across. THey should have airlifted her deep in-country.

Free trip to Cancun? Big grin
Seriously though, there is no way a high profile case like this will keep a mother and child separated. She will return to her son and hopefully very soon.
I know I am in the minority opinion here but I can't celebrate the separation of a parent from there child as long as they abusing them.
Kudos to her for accepting a very unglamourous job that I doubt anyone here would do. As this case gets more attention, when she returns to her child, she may not need to push a broom or clean a toilet again for money considering all the attention she is getting from the anti-immigrant crowd.
Bring back the Concorde
 
57AZ
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:30 am

Also, to make one more point the United States Constitution grants citizenship to all persons born or naturalized in the United States or it's Territories under the 14th Amendment, ratified in 1868. Thus this part of the immigration issue is also a Constitutional Law issue. By having a state document that clearly identifies that the child was born within the territory of the United States, the child is legally a United States citizen and will remain so unless he renounces it at some point in the future.

While some would argue that doing away with the 14th Amendment birth clause would abate the "anchor baby" problem, it would also create a massive problem pertaining to the citizenship of the children born to legal residents. Remember that the original purpose of the 14th Amendment was to extend legal citizenship to the former slaves after the Civil War. Changing the laws could be done, but the encumbering process will be long, costly and not without a great degree of difficulty.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
slider
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 37):
It is also a nation of immigrants.

Yes, and we fueled our growth not by opening up the borders unilaterally but by being selective. What people forget while they lose the argument whilst quoting Emma Lazarus and waxing nostalgic is that we screened people back then. They had to be medically examined. They used to even flip up an eyelid—if it was so much as pink, you were on the next steamship back across the pond. It is now 2007, the old arguments do not intellectually parallel those that were valid during the turn of the last century and the Industrial Revolution.

Today we have created a virtual slave class, bought and paid for by our government that commits treason for the sake of cheap labor. The social fabric of the US is being torn apart, not to mention the obvious economic impact.

There IS such a thing as a good and bad immigrant. We should always strive to want to attract the best and brightest, the most talented and gifted who will enrich our nation AND assimilate into the distinct American culture. E Pluribus Unum, not the other way around. It seems the hand-wringing self-loathing crowd in this country has a problem making a moral stance, one that is very much justified, necessary and appropriate.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 37):
Just the one instance ? Surely not...

Tis true. I’ve not always cared for some people’s posts here over the years, but am repulsed by yours. It’s despicable IMHO and insults my nation, my values and those who died for the very freedoms you so cavalierly deride as passé or old fashioned.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 37):
Exactly - FREE association, not dictated to by artificial boundaries.

You defeat your own argument here. Free association and HUMAN NATURE dictate that when men associate, they also create a border, to establish the criteria upon which they have associated. Cavemen had boundaries, tribes formed and social compacts have existed since man has existed. You may not care for the alleged arbitrary nature of a physical boundary, but men fight wars for them, to establish them, to defend them, and to preserve what is inside from being tainted by some external force. Borders are ingrained into human nature and they WILL NEVER disappear.

Besides, if there were no borders, where would people go? The reason more people WANT to come here is because we ARE a special land of opportunity. You bastardize that and the USA becomes a third world country in no time. Then where will people go? Then what benefit did the utopian panacea bring about? Nothing.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:45 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 38):
To have a borderless world would be so risky it could result in the worst atrocities in human history. Global government with 1 ruler? Global democracy? Who are you kidding? Even democracy in the USA barely works. It is far from a proven concept.

To have a borderless world right away would be very risky, I won't deny that. But is it unreasonable to have that as an aim ?

And you're right, democracy is flawed where there isn't perfect accountability too. But that's a whole other debate (how about next November  Smile ) - but let us not completely discount the possibility for some future time. Today we are too constrained by limited, geographically concentrated resources, and until these limitations are overcome, there will be haves and have nots. No harm in trying practical and balanced means to reduce the gap between them.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 38):
I am sorry but it is you who are the radical revolutionary here. I am as politically sympathetic as any person within reason. But unlike some, I will not participate in mathematically impossible policies. Such as, allowing unfettered immigration. Mostly because I do not want to see the world's poor outside my doorstep begging for food. I know they are out there. I am overjoyed we have border guards to keep immigration orderly.

You claim to resent unfairness, but are quite happy for unfairness to exist, as long as you don't have to see it first hand ? Wouldn't a fairer application of the American ideal be to try and eliminate unfairness everywhere, rather than build a wall round yourselves and say "Isn't it lovely and fair in here - build the wall higher, so we don't have to see the unfairness beyond" ? Why not extend the benefits of your way of life to as many people as possible ? Lead by example.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 38):
It's not immigration I hate. It is crime, disorder, laziness and unfairness that I detest. Our bureaucrats have been lazy and unfair beyond belief in tolerating our recent waves of foreign visitors. Immigration? I am all for it. But we are not talking about immigration, per se. We are talking about attempted immigration, a source of disorder and unfairness.

That is not to say a Mexico-centric immigration permissive policy is fair and balanced. Actually, that is deeply racist. Racist against Asians, Africans and Europeans. I will not stand for preferential treatment of certain immigrant groups. If we are to have 10 million new immigrants, let the process of selection be fair and open. Not centered on one geographic region. All people are equally worthy of consideration for a US green card, on an equal basis. Equality is an American tradition. Not global equality, mind you, but American equality. Therein lies the difference.

I'm with you on that one - selective legal immigration based on nationality and race is the most invidious and divisive form of racism imaginable. If I was a French citizen, I would qualify for the Green Card lottery, but as I'm British, I'm not eligible. Sounds pretty un-American to me.

That said, the Mexico-centric, or Central America-centric problem (because Mexicans are not the only nationality from Central America entering the US clandestinely, is a unique one, because it is not just illegal migrancy, it has reached the scale and unstoppability of a demographic population movement in line with similar great population waves in previous millennia. 12 million people ? That's huge, probably bigger than all the population waves in Europe in the last 2000 years put together. Clearly the forces at work are too big to be resisted by conventional means.
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mham001
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:52 am

Deporting parents of citizens is nothing new, it's been going on for awhile. The parent has a choice, leave the children with legal guardians or take them with. It appears all the publicity is having the desired affect, reports say that the Mexican shelters along the border which used to serve people heading north are now filled with people heading south. It appears that the atttrition that would naturally occur with simple law enforcement is happening - without the massive deportatation of 12 million people that the pro-illegals spout about.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 37):
It is also a nation of immigrants. What ever happened to giving the little guy an even break ? Isn't that the American Way ? Or is it just about pulling the ladder up after you ? Imagine if they'd done that in 1776 ? How many of our gallant rah-rah send 'em packing demagogues would be sporting the American flag in their profiles if they had ? Who decided America was full ?

How convenient of you to forget that we allow more legal immigration each year than the rest of the developed world- combined(last I looked) so get off the "nation of immigrants" propaganda. At some point a country has a right to control its population growth as we encounter real problems with resources such as water. Convenient to forget also that in the 70's we were programmed to believe that there were too many people in country and we all had to make fewer babies. What has changed since then?
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:03 am

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 43):
How convenient of you to forget that we allow more legal immigration each year than the rest of the developed world- combined(last I looked) so get off the "nation of immigrants" propaganda.

Glad to hear it, but the US is also the largest country in the developed world, by population, so that's not exactly surprising.

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 43):
Convenient to forget also that in the 70's we were programmed to believe that there were too many people in country and we all had to make fewer babies. What has changed since then?

Economic necessity, probably, resulting from a shortage of unskilled labour vital to an economy still somewhat dependent on primary production such as agriculture. As other sectors expand, less desirable jobs in mining, agriculture and heavy industry no longer attract local labour, and labour has to be got from somewhere.
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tsaord
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:07 am

I'm so glad that woman was sent back after refusing to leave last year here in Chicago. But ICE should have sent her son with her. Its a shame that they use their children as crutches to try and stay here. Saul is her responsibility and they should have sent him back with her. He can come back any time.

She used a fake SS number, came back after being deported once. Why are Immigrants coming here and just ignoring the laws like they have some right to be here and saying F the USA we aren't going anywhere?

The US Government let this fester for too long as well. Why can't the Mexican Government take better care of it's people why are they running to the USA while the Mexican president just sits in his office and laugh?

She had the nerve to say I'm leaving the Church come and get me and thats exactly what they did! She is no Rosa Parks!
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slider
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:15 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 42):
But is it unreasonable to have that as an aim ?

YES it is because it is diametrically opposed to human nature. Ergo, it is unachievable.

Quote:
It’s not the first time Arellano was deported. She came to Washington state illegally in 1997. She was deported to Mexico shortly after, but returned and moved to Illinois in 2000, taking a job cleaning planes at O'Hare International Airport.

She was arrested in 2002 at O'Hare and convicted of working under a false Social Security number. She was to surrender to authorities last August, but instead took refuge at a Humboldt Park church for more than a year before visiting Los Angeles over the weekend.

 
tsaord
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:19 am

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 4):
The authorities did exactly the right thing. And they need to do this more often.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 18):
You know in the United States we have something called laws - which both of you obviously do not respect, or read.

Entering the US illegally is a civil violation - not a crime. It is similar to, but less than, a parking ticket.

Now if you want to do something about illegal immigration, the needs to:

(1) Establish a national identidy card linked to a real-time database so forgeries will raise immediate alarms;

(2) Make it a felony with jail time for small business, infact any business, to employ someone without legal status;

(3) Eliminate the 'contractor' loophole

When there are no jobs and no possibility of jobs the flow of illegals will be substantially reduced.

Everything else, fences, border patrols, etc - is just some one getting rich off political connections.

And just to be clear - if she is here illegally, she needs to be deported - the age of her US citizen child does not matter.

She can be legally admitted to the US relatively quickly - but only from her home country

Great response. I agree completely. But now what is the USA going to do with twelve million of them? There are too many loopholes in the system with having kids and what not that they use to stay here. Then you have these silly Congressman trying to give them an express pass without actually doing something to curb another twelve million of them coming later. Can the White House put more pressure on Mexico to help its people so they can stop running away?

I do not believe Immigrants are doing the jobs Americans wouldn't. If the person needs a job then they will have to do it or starve ig they really need a job. This was the case before immigrants became such a problem.
there are icons, then there are legends, then there is rick flair
 
mham001
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:22 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 46):

She was arrested in 2002 at O'Hare and convicted of working under a false Social Security number. She was to surrender to authorities last August, but instead took refuge at a Humboldt Park church for more than a year before visiting Los Angeles over the weekend.

She should consider herself lucky that she's not sitting in a jail cell.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Illegal Aliens: Small Step In The Right Direction

Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:24 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 46):
YES it is because it is diametrically opposed to human nature. Ergo, it is unachievable.

Human nature changes, it's called evolution. 1000 years ago it wasn't "human nature" to consider women as equals - in most cultures they were simply chattels. Things change, we move on, we improve.

Re your quote, does this not illustrate the impossible scale of the problem. This women was prepared to risk everything to get to the US to do a crappy job nobody else wants to do. Twice. There must be some powerful driving forces at work here, more than just the chance of a Sears chargecard and a second hand Buick.
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