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Braybuddy
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Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:33 pm

Quite right too: a police uniform is no place for religious symbolism:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0823/turban.html
 
Bofredrik
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:23 pm

In Sweden is it now OK to wear turban if you are a policeman AND
cover your hair if you are a muslim police woman, etc. Why? Because
it will come protests from certain groups if it is not allowed and they
are screaming "DISCRIMINATION!" And the gvmt want to be political
correct so the allow everything more or less.
 
Asturias
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:35 am

Good, I am glad common sense prevails over political correctness. Seems rare these days.

saludos

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comorin
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:47 am

The Sikhs are a wonderful and warm people, and many younger Sikhs do question the need for a turban. Technically speaking, the beard and hair are 'religious' requirements and not the turban.

In pre-independence India, the British had come up with various regiments that celebrated diversity - The Sikh Regiment, The Gurkhas and so on that had distinct uniforms. But then, that is part of the cultural milieu of that country. In the UK, you have the kilt-wearing Highlanders and so on. Perhaps some day you may have a special constabulary in Ireland based on ethnic identity.

Having said that, to emigrate to a Western country, and demand that you wear your native garb as uniform ( hijab, turban, yarmulke) raises questions of reasonableness. Religious dress requirements are usually a burden placed upon the less-educated by the orthodox in their own societies, and is more a symbol of backwardness than personal choice. It's not fair to ask an advanced society to take a leap backwards.

Those that want dress regulations relaxed do so because they are not able to overcome the demands of religious (actually parental) stricture and superstition . They are saying 'Hey, I want to be one of you, but I can't give up my religious need to wear a (turban, yarmulke, hijab). Please me it easy for us". This is different from saying "Hey, I have a religious right to wear it and you need to change your ways".

So Ireland, a country of a mere 4M happy folk, said "No thanks, maybe later". If the sentiment of the Irish people is to not allow turbans, so be it. I can't understand why someone would migrate to the West to enjoy the fruits of its toil since the Enlightenment, and also want to bring the baggage of darkness to dump upon their hosts. If you really want to walk around with a bone through your nose, you have every right to do it after hours.

I frankly think that patience has run thin after 9/11 - and the unfairness of being tolerant of intolerant people sinks in. At some point, as an immigrant, you need to make an effort to show that you are willing to give up the past and become one with your host country. And also let your parents know it.
 
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:53 am

When you move to a new country you embrace their cultures,5 million people should't have to embrace yours.I understand his frustration but these are the rules of the Garda Síochánna and if you d'ont agree with then well then maybe it's not the job for you
 
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:08 am

Good on the Irish government.

It is true that if these people come to our contries they should live by our rules. Turbans shouldn't be allowed anyway when the job requires you to wear there head gear, particularly when it is for your safety (Riot helmets).

I think that police officers are required to wear there hats a specific times anyway, like when they are on the beat.


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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:26 pm

I can't see the problem with wearing the turban. Didn't they go through all this in Canada in 1990?

http://history.cbc.ca/history/?MIval...de_id=17&chapter_id=2&page_id=3?=E

"Canada’s Charter of Rights and Freedoms, entrenched in its constitution, had prevailed. Dhillon could wear his turban as a RCMP officer, establishing a precedent of great symbolic power."

Or has it changed there?

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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:58 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 6):
"Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms, entrenched in its constitution, had prevailed. Dhillon could wear his turban as a RCMP officer, establishing a precedent of great symbolic power."

The server is down, so the link isn't working at the moment.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 6):
I can't see the problem with wearing the turban. Didn't they go through all this in Canada in 1990?

Several countries have gone down this road, but that doesn't mean that they've chosen the right one. Like I said above, a police uniform is NO place for religious symbolism. A police officer should leave his religious identity at home. I don't want to see a Garda displaying a crucifix, kipa or turban. A person's religion is a personal and private thing and should be invisible in any police force.

My opinion was reinforced when a member of the Metropolitan Police Sikh Association in London, interviewed on TV this week, said that he was a Sikh first, and a police officer second. I VERY MUCH WELCOME diversity in the Gardaí, but a uniform is a uniform, and any prospective member knows what to expect when he joins: no long hair, no jewellery, no beards. And no nail varnish, skirts, sandals, stilettos, lipstick or turbans.

As Cormorin said above, there is almost an expectation among some cultures that they have a right to wear their religous sybols. Another British sikh interviewed on radio this week talked about wearing the turban in the Gardaí as a right, rather than a desire. What arrogance! It's no wonder that public opinion here is firmly behind the Gardaí's decision.
 
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:48 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 7):
I VERY MUCH WELCOME diversity in the Gardaí,

For Sikhs, their turban is an integral part of their culture. I don't see how you can have one without the other.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 7):
a member of the Metropolitan Police Sikh Association in London, interviewed on TV this week, said that he was a Sikh first, and a police officer second.

I am a person before I am a job.

Uniforms are modified, with the changing times, or the changing society. The Sikh does not object to wearing the uniform - he seems to want to wear it - he is asking that a small modification be allowed, which does not impede his ability to fulfill the job.

Other societies have seen a value in this particular modification. If the Garda does not - if you do not - I can only shrug.

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HowSwedeitis
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:29 pm

This is a rather tricky subject. While I agree that all religious symbols should be removed from a police uniform (including the crucifix) I think it's cool that UN Peacekeepers can have a blue hat or a blue turban!
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Tom12
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:14 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 7):
A police officer should leave his religious identity at home

Exactly. A Police Officer should be an individual that comes across as someone who is completely balanced in everything, so there is no way he can be accused of being bias.
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:15 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
For Sikhs, their turban is an integral part of their culture. I don't see how you can have one without the other.

Yes, and they are very welcome to live and work here. It's great to see cultural diversity, but if they want to join the police, the uniform is a job requirement. There are plenty of other jobs available where employers don't have a problem with religous symbols. Funny, with all the brouhaha over the turban, they don't seem to realise they'll have to shave their beards off as well.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
Uniforms are modified, with the changing times, or the changing society

Rules can be changed, of course, and I can see the beard one probably disappearing, but I can't see the rules being changed for sikhs, or anybody else, to display their religion on their uniform. And I'm not being racist either: if I saw a Garda displaying a crucifix I'd find that equally objectionable.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
Other societies have seen a value in this particular modification. If the Garda does not - if you do not - I can only shrug.

So where do you draw the line? Are Jewish members of the Gardaí to be given exemption from working on the sabbath? Or female muslim Gardaí allowed wear the hijab? You're opening a can of worms here. Who says that any government has to allow for religious strictures? France got a lot of stick over its prohibition of the hijab in classrooms, but still went ahead with it, and Tunisia has had a similar ban in government offices since the 1980s.
 
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:36 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
For Sikhs, their turban is an integral part of their culture. I don't see how you can have one without the other.

True, but there are plenty of modern Sikhs who are clean-shaven and turban-less in India and the US. Their kids are probably tired of looking odd at school. In a way, the more 'intolerant' we are, the more we help their children become part of the 21st century.

I speak as an immigrant, and my grandfather had a ponytail and an earring back in my native village in India.
 
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:46 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 11):
Or female muslim Gardaí allowed wear the hijab? You're opening a can of worms here.

I would think that the hijab would impede their ability to do the job. As I said:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
he is asking that a small modification be allowed, which does not impede his ability to fulfill the job.

But the can of worms is already open.

I don't know what happened in Ireland, but in many countries, "modifications" to the uniform were made for women.

And, in many countries, I can well remember when simply being homosexual got you dismissed from the force - uniform or not.

Times change. Time changes.

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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:49 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 13):
But the can of worms is already open.

I think in any police force allowances have had to be made for women, who are physically different from men, but the current female Garda uniform is the same for both sexes. There was a time when skirts were worn, but this seems to have been discontinued. That's COMPLETELY different from wearing religious symbols by any member of the force. I, and, going by public opinion, most of the people in this country, find this completely unacceptable. Religion is a personal, private matter, and if anyone wants to proclaim it let them do it in their private lives.

My local branch of PC World had a Sikh member of staff, and he looks very smart in his lilac turban, to match the company shirts. He's an advantage there as he can be spotted a mile away. Maybe this guy who wants to be a Garda should apply for a job there instead.  

[Edited 2007-08-26 02:22:13]
 
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:03 am

Is there a compromise situation available here?

Do Sikhs need to wear their 'turban' at all times or could they cover their hair and still fit in with in the requirements of the uniform while upholding their beliefs and also upholding the law.

I think it is possible.

All the best,

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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:51 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 14):
I, and, going by public opinion, most of the people in this country, find this completely unacceptable.

It used to be that many believed the open expression of one's sexuality when serving serving one's country was "completely unacceptable".

I am glad that some countries, at least, have grown past that.

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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:10 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 16):
I am glad that some countries, at least, have grown past that.

This has nothing to do with sexuality, and there is even a Garda gay liaison officer to deal with issues regarding the gay community. Whether he's gay or not I don't know, but he wears the same uniform as the rest of the Gardaí.

We're coming at it here from two very different countries, albeit of a similar size and climate . . . you have to remember that New Zealand has had a relatively peaceful history, and has never had a civil war. Ireland has had a turbulent past, and in the past people have been killed in the name of politics or religion. If there's one good reason religious symbolism in the police force is to be avoided, this is it.

[Edited 2007-08-26 03:11:23]
 
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:28 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 17):
This has nothing to do with sexuality

It is representative of an attitude to "difference" - cultural diversity - and the public opinion of it.

Police work is a dangerous occupation, as is any defence force. A member of that force - male or female - must understand that it may involve danger to their person, and potentially at least, danger to their life.

If someone is prepared to do that, it seems a great pity to me that their willingness to make that sacrifice should be negated by a piece of cloth.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 17):
you have to remember that New Zealand has had a relatively peaceful history,

I live in New Zealand now. but I was born and raised in far more turbulent societies, more so than ever Ireland was, where, to this day, people are killed on a daily basis because of religious intolerance.

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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:37 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):
If someone is prepared to do that, it seems a great pity to me that their willingness to make that sacrifice should be negated by a piece of cloth.

Exactly, and if Sikhs have no problem taking off the turban for swimming I don't see any problem making an allowance for police duties, although their long hair and beards would be another problem.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):
to this day, people are killed on a daily basis because of religious intolerance.

Which is the whole point of this debate: if one person has an objection to another on the basis of religion, a police force should not only be neutral, but be seen to be neutral.
 
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:38 am

Quoting RedArrows (Reply 4):
When you move to a new country you embrace their cultures,5 million people should't have to embrace yours

No one is asking the Irish people to embrace their culture, you just have to respect diversity

Quoting Braybuddy (Thread starter):
police uniform is no place for religious symbolism

the question is will it prohibit him from doing his job well

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
For Sikhs, their turban is an integral part of their culture. I don't see how you can have one without the other.

Exactly

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
which does not impede his ability to fulfill the job.

Yup, If a person wants to preserve their cultural heritage they have the right to do so. Basically, some people here are arguing that if a Sikh, Jew, Muslim moves to any other country where they are the minority they must lose their cultural ways and adopt the native customs, lets all embrace diversity and stop limiting the opportunities for people because of their religious preference.
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:44 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 20):
the question is will it prohibit him from doing his job well

The thing is, he could do his job just as well not wearing the turban.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 20):
Basically, some people here are arguing that if a Sikh, Jew, Muslim moves to any other country where they are the minority they must lose their cultural ways and adopt the native customs, lets all embrace diversity and stop limiting the opportunities for people because of their religious preference.

Like I said earlier, do you exempt a Jewish member of the force from working the Sabbath? Where do you draw the line here?
 
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:59 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 21):
The thing is, he could do his job just as well not wearing the turban.

no, the way it works as I know in most countries who claim to be "democratic" and respective of people's beliefs, would allow that small adjustment.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 21):
Like I said earlier, do you exempt a Jewish member of the force from working the Sabbath?

Maybe So, the only problem is I cant relate, because most Orthodox Jews in this country dont really work those jobs as I know it.
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:05 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 19):
Which is the whole point of this debate: if one person has an objection to another on the basis of religion, a police force should not only be neutral, but be seen to be neutral.

It is not my point.

My point is that no one person should have an objection to another on the basis of religion (or anything else).

Certainly a police force should be "neutral". But it should also be representative of the community that it protects.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 21):
do you exempt a Jewish member of the force from working the Sabbath? Where do you draw the line here?

I guess the Israeli police force manages just fine.

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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:23 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 23):
My point is that no one person should have an objection to another on the basis of religion (or anything else).

And the Gardaí have NO objection whatsover to anyone, on the basis of race, sexuality or religion. The only requirement is that they wear the uniform and do their job.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 23):
Certainly a police force should be "neutral". But it should also be representative of the community that it protects.

So you either avoid displaying tribal/religous/sexual symbols altogether, or you display them all. You could do either, but the former is far simpler than the latter.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 23):
I guess the Israeli police force manages just fine

So the Israeli police force is prepared to set aside religious strictures to do their job. That is as it should be.

We're not going to agree here Mariner. You believe cultural diversity takes precedence over law, I believe otherwise. Look at the debate going on in the US at the moment where (again Sikhs) believe they should be exempt from full secuity checks. This is where "cultural diversity" causes problems.
 
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:25 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 23):
It is not my point.

My point is that no one person should have an objection to another on the basis of religion (or anything else).
Certainly a police force should be "neutral". But it should also be representative of the community that it protects.

Thats right, stop "acting" like you guys are pissed off about Political Corectness or displaying religious symbols, I see that you guys who are against this man from serving his community because the forces cannot make a simple adjustment for him. You guys seem to be reluctant to accept cultural diversity and the influx of immigrants, and in this case one who wants to contribute to his community. He wants to maintain his identity as well as work in that force, I dont see whats so difficult about allowing that to happen.
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:41 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 24):
You believe cultural diversity takes precedence over law,

I do not believe that for one moment. Everyone is subject to law. Everyone.

But - laws are changed as the society changes, just as the laws regarding homosexuality were changed.

I did not realise that the details of the Garda uniform are protected by the law of the land - it seems extreme - but again, laws can be changed, have been changed, will be changed.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 24):
Look at the debate going on in the US at the moment where (again Sikhs) believe they should be exempt from full secuity checks

I am not aware of that debate, but if it is what you say, then the Sikhs would be wrong in that instance.

But again - accomodations - modifications - have been found even in the application of security.

If security wishes to see the face or body of a woman wearing a hijab, then she must comply. Many countries have made arrangements for that compliance to be done in a private room, however.

Similarly, I do not understand why, in some places in the UK, Christmas symbols, Christian symbols - mangers, carols, etc., are regarded as offensive to some.

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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:44 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 25):
You guys seem to be reluctant to accept cultural diversity and the influx of immigrants, and in this case one who wants to contribute to his community. He wants to maintain his identity as well as work in that force, I dont see whats so difficult about allowing that to happen.

It's not a case of being reluctant to accept cultural diversity: this country could not function at the moment if all the Poles, Czechs, Filipinos, Nigerians, Chinese, etc suddenly decided to go home. We need them to keep the economy going. And most of them assimilate very well, and are happy to accept the requirements of any jobs they take, but it's a different matter when beliefs or aspirations are proclaimed to be "rights". Why do people assume that religious beliefs must take precedence over law?

This guy can still retain his identity and be a member of the Gardaí, he's just being asked not to proclaim it to the public. Is that too much to ask of someone? If it is, maybe he should reconsider his career.
 
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:50 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 26):
But - laws are changed as the society changes, just as the laws regarding homosexuality were changed.

There were never any laws here barring homosexuals from joining the Gardaí. In the past they wouldn't have been open about it, but it's never been an issue.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 26):
I did not realise that the details of the Garda uniform are protected by the law of the land - it seems extreme - but again, laws can be changed, have been changed, will be changed.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear here, but the Garda uniform is not protected by the law: it's a matter for the force itself, and it has changed over the years, but it's remained the same for all, apart from minor differences between males and females.
 
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:23 pm

What if these religious gentlemen wanted to join the Irish Constabulary ? Their religion prohibits the wearing of clothes...

 
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:48 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 28):
There were never any laws here barring homosexuals from joining the Gardaí.

They didn't need individual law. Homosexuality used to be illegal in Ireland (until 1993, I believe?).

Back in the 60's, I was close friends with Micheal MacLiammoir and Hilton Edwards. When I stayed with them in Dublin, they gave me very long lectures about it, especially in regard to the police.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 27):
This guy can still retain his identity and be a member of the Gardaí

He seems to think not, so perhaps he will reconsider his career choice. Here's a solution - maybe he could move to London and apply to join the police there.  Smile

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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:36 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 30):
They didn't need individual law. Homosexuality used to be illegal in Ireland (until 1993, I believe?).

You're right on the second count: homosexuality was indeed decriminalised in 1993, but the fact that it was illegal up to then didn't mean that gays were prosecuted, or indeed barred from public office. The law was on the books, but gays were never prosecuted on account of their sexuality, and gay life flourished regardless. Indeed, the country's leading campaigner for gay rights, David Norris, was at that time (and still is) an openly gay member of the Senate, the upper house in government. I've known gay members of the Gardaí going back over twenty years: they wouldn't have been proclaiming their sexuality from the rooftops, but it was never an issue, and no-one was ever removed or barred from the force because of it.

It was ironic that, while homosexuality was illegal in this country, gays were never harassed the way they were in the '70s and '80s in the UK, where the police often engaged in the nasty practice of entrapment.
 
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:55 pm





Its common out here.
However It would depend on the Country in question to determine the rules.
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:56 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 31):
It was ironic that, while homosexuality was illegal in this country, gays were never harassed the way they were in the '70s and '80s in the UK, where the police often engaged in the nasty practice of entrapment.

I can't speak for the 70's and 80's, but in the 60's - as noted above - Mr. Macliammoir and Mr. Edwards thought differently from you.

I was present when Mr. Macliammoir had a very unfortunate run-in with the police. It was only the arrival of an older cop - who recognized hm - that turned the situation around.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 31):
they wouldn't have been proclaiming their sexuality from the rooftops

There were gays in the UK police - and Australia and NZ - before the laws were changed. But to survive, they had to "be discreet" - hide - their sexuality.

Happily, the world has moved on some, and now police forces in several countries act try to enlist gays, to better represent the overall community.

Just as the presence of any minority group in the force might better represent the overall community.

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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:52 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 33):
Just as the presence of any minority group in the force might better represent the overall community.

Exactly, any minority group is a welcome addition to a police force. But to expect it to bend to suit its demands is completely unacceptable, and also arrogant.
 
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:07 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 34):
But to expect it to bend to suit its demands is completely unacceptable, and also arrogant.

I can only shrug. I find your use of the word "arrogant" depressing. Other countries have come to terms with this. The turban is now officially recognised as RCMP uniform.

http://www.civilization.ca/hist/hats/l_9527be.html

"The turban is now part of the official uniform of the RCMP. The blue turban corresponds to the forage cap for routine duties, and the brown turban is worn, like the stetson, for ceremonial events."

However, since this Belfast newspaper is reporting that the man in question has withdrawn his application to serve in the Garda Reserve - I note that is was for the Reserve - the debate seems moot, at least for now:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne.../local-national/article2886515.ece

"The Sikh man has said he will not be taking up his post"

I was interested to read, in the same article, that the PSNI would allow Sikhs to wear the turban in their force.

I had not thought the six counties to be so progressive.

mariner
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:18 pm

Quoting Comorin (Reply 3):
At some point, as an immigrant, you need to make an effort to show that you are willing to give up the past and become one with your host country.

Multikulti zealots would strongly disagree with that idea.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 13):
I don't know what happened in Ireland, but in many countries, "modifications" to the uniform were made for women.

That's apples and oranges. Physical aspects due to different sexes and cultural/religious symbols. You don't have a choice in the first case, do you?

Quoting Comorin (Reply 29):
What if these religious gentlemen wanted to join the Irish Constabulary ? Their religion prohibits the wearing of clothes...

Exactly. Where do you draw the line then. Can I demand to be alloweed to show up for my police duty dressed in StarTrek uniform? My religion prevents me from wearing anything else.
 
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mariner
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:26 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 36):
That's apples and oranges.

No, sir. The point is that the uniform was modified - for whatever reason. Just as the RCMP and the Metropolitan Police modified their uniforms, for various reasons.

The uniform is not immutable.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 36):
StarTrek uniform? My religion prevents me from wearing anything else.

Star Trek has tax exempt status in you country? Interesting.

mariner

[Edited 2007-08-27 12:29:29]
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:37 pm

During the last few centuries, Ireland was the site of a very bloody civil war based largely on religion (Catholics versus Protestants). Just look at Northern Ireland, where the RUC has been seen for a long time as prefering protestants over catholics. As a result the Garda has to be seen as strictly neutral in religious matters. You will find NO religious symbolism on a Garda uniform.
While I agree that the military version of a Sikh turban looks smart (see the Naik (correct rank?) in the picture posted by MEL), I think concerning the historical background of Ireland, the introduction of a religious symbol in the uniform will open a can of worms (if the Sikh can wera his turban, why can I not wear my cross or other symbol?).

Jan
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mariner
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:41 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 38):
Just look at Northern Ireland, where the RUC has been seen for a long time as prefering protestants over catholics.

But the police in Northern Ireland have accepted the concept of the turban as part of the uniform.

mariner

[Edited 2007-08-27 12:51:35]
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:53 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 39):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 38):
Just look at Northern Ireland, where the RUC has been seen for a long time as prefering protestants over catholics.

But the police in Northern Ireland have accepted the concept of the turban as part of the uniform.

mariner

Still a religious symbol like wearing a cruzifix or a kippa.

Jan
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Banco
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:57 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 39):
But hte police in Northern Ireland have accepted the concept of the turban as part of the uniform.

Yes. This seems from the outside to be an instance of being difficult for the sake of it. If you want a representative police force (and surely you do) then allowing Sikhs to wear a turban seems a pretty minor thing to make an issue out of. As you rightly point out, in the UK it is permitted, and the sky hasn't fallen in. On the contrary, it works well. It doesn't interfere with them doing their jobs and it allows that representative police force.

I can't honestly see that the argument has been made as to why it shouldn't be allowed. I mean, what difference does it really make?
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:09 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 40):
Still a religious symbol like wearing a cruzifix or a kippa.

But in recent decades, there has been far more religious strife - more blood shed, more deaths - in Northern Ireland than in the Republic, yet in Northern Ireland they don't have a problem with this religious symbol.

mariner
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:13 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 30):
maybe he could move to London and apply to join the police there.

Or he could come to good old NZ where people are not just tolerant but celebrate all cultures, religions, festivals and diversity
 
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:21 pm

Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Reply 43):
Or he could come to good old NZ where people are not just tolerant but celebrate all cultures, religions, festivals and diversity

Imagine the fuss if the NZ police told a Maori cop he couldn't wear his greenstone taonga.  Smile

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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:35 pm

Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Reply 43):
Or he could come to good old NZ where people are not just tolerant but celebrate all cultures, religions, festivals and diversity

Same in Good old India & one can add the excellent music & of course Food  Smile
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:05 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 35):
I can only shrug. I find your use of the word "arrogant" depressing. Other countries have come to terms with this. The turban is now officially recognised as RCMP uniform.

I can only shrug too. Who's to say that other countries have made the right decision? Allowances breed allowances, so where do you stop? This is not a racist issue, although I'm sure some people would like to turn it into one. Why do some people have a problem with having a police force devoid of the trappings of religion? What's so wrong about that? In any modern, secular society it should be the norm. Other police forces may have chosen another path, possibly out of fear of being seen to be "racist" (as if religion had anything to do with race), or equality, when in fact it has nothing to do with either.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 35):
I was interested to read, in the same article, that the PSNI would allow Sikhs to wear the turban in their force.

I had not thought the six counties to be so progressive.

We're on different wavelengths here Mariner . . . I would consider ancient religious headgear retrogressive, but however . .

Quoting Banco (Reply 41):
If you want a representative police force (and surely you do) then allowing Sikhs to wear a turban seems a pretty minor thing to make an issue out of. As you rightly point out, in the UK it is permitted, and the sky hasn't fallen in. On the contrary, it works well. It doesn't interfere with them doing their jobs and it allows that representative police force.

A representative police force is a good thing, and there's NOTHING stopping this Sikh from becoming a Garda but his inflexible religious beliefs. This country is full of Catholics who don't go to Mass, don't take communion, who eat meat on Fridays and indulge in casual sex, and I have Muslim friends who don't pray five times a day, and who drink alcohol regularly. No, the sky hasn't fallen in in the UK over police wearing turbans, but if I remember correctly, after the 7/7 bombings, there was a strong feeling in the country that integration HADN'T been the success it was thought to be, and many people felt that the country had gone too far to accommodate minorities. Perhaps we can learn from this. You wouldn't have seen the interveiw with the Sikh representative from the UK Metropolitan Police, Banco, but he stated that he was a Sikh first, and a police officer second. What happens when his religion puts him in conflict with his job?

Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Reply 43):
Or he could come to good old NZ where people are not just tolerant but celebrate all cultures, religions, festivals and diversity

We do so here too, you know . . .
 
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:19 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 46):
What happens when his religion puts him in conflict with his job?

We've seen that before haven't we?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5410094.stm

Can you imagine the sh*tstorm if a white policeman refused to guard... let's say Ugandan embassy?
 
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:22 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 46):
We're on different wavelengths here Mariner . . . I would consider ancient religious headgear retrogressive, but however . .

Yes, we are. I regard all religious symbols as retrogressive, but I will not try and impose my view on any one else.

It is not so vey long ago that te Garda marched in religious (Catholic) parades in Dublin. There was nothing"wrong" with that - Ireland was then a white, Catholic country.

Ireland is not that now.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 46):
Who's to say that other countries have made the right decision?

Who is to say they have not?

Many would claim that multi-national immigration into white societies was a "wrong" decision. I think it was great - the point is that that it happened, and those societies changed.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 46):
he stated that he was a Sikh first, and a police officer second.

Yes, he is. He has always been a Sikh. He became a policeman later. I am a person before I am a job.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 46):
What happens when his religion puts him in conflict with his job?

He has sworn to uphold the laws of the country, just as he has sworn to wear the turban.

Clearly - provably - he would be a man of his word.

mariner
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RE: Irish Police Refuse To Lift Ban On Turbans

Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:30 am

Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Reply 43):
Or he could come to good old NZ where people are not just tolerant but celebrate all cultures, religions, festivals and diversity

Ahem . . . I posted too quickly: a two-minute Google search threw-up the following:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3192425.stm

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4167172a6160.html

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 47):
We've seen that before haven't we?

From the article:

"The Association of Muslim Police Officers . . . said Pc Basha had asked to be excused from his duties because he felt "uncomfortable and unsafe"

You couldn't make it up . . .  rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

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