Beaucaire
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Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:45 am

Greece has been subject to more than hundred deliberately lit bush-fires throughout the country.
So far more than 50 people have burned alive -and that toll is rising..
Army,police and even the Greek secret service are manhunting those criminal scum who are responsible for this mass-murder.it is supposed that many of the fires have been lit to destroy precious and rare woodland for real-estate speculation.
Several counties have been sending planes ,helicopters and firemen to assit the Greek fire-brigades and army in their desperate fight.
I hope they catch at least some of those responsible and put them to jail for the rest of their miserable days....

[Edited 2007-08-25 18:59:16]
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Bofredrik
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:56 am

It is a great disaster.
I saw on TV that people are very angry that the gvmt is not
doing enough but i am sure they do what they can.
The problem is the weather with strong winds and a very
hot temperature. Up to 40+c is not heping and the wind
is us around 20 knots.
 
aloges
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:21 am

Best of luck to those in the affected areas... may they get whatever help they need!

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
So far more than 50 people have burned alive -and that toll is rising.

I hope most of them were overcome by the smoke before that happened, which would make it a tiny little bit less horrid.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:34 am

Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
lewis
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:52 am

A truly devastating day for us. My thoughts to all the families that lost their loved ones or are homeless. It is still very windy and the smell of burning wood is everywhere. It was terrible to walk outside today, too much smoke and ash hanging around. Not much will be done about it during the night.

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
I hope they catch at least some of those responsible and put them to jail for the rest of their miserable days...

Unfortunately not much can be done about it. Unless the government changes the stupid laws that allow people to build over burned forests, people will still be putting fires just to make more money and sell land.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:19 pm

This article in "Athens News" from August 16 ,describe in the last four paragraphs the reasoning behind many of the fires..
then former pine-forrests all of a sudden are sold for millions of €/Ha,the temptations are just too big for ruthless speculators.

http://www.athensnews.gr/athweb/nath...rticle?e=C&f=13248&t=01&m=A02&aa=1

I'm afraid Greek politicians -like in most counties - will hold some very vigorous talks and speeches on TV to show their determination to change things-and then go back to business as usual...
Without backing from some major institutional parties those fires would never have started.
Another issue s the poor infrastructure in many Mediterranean countries when it comes to firefighting.
The cost of maintaining a decent fleet of Berejev's and Canadairs is peanuts compard to the ecological and human dammage caused by those incidents.I can not detect any determined move in neither Greece,Croatia,Portugal,France or Italy to re-enforce those fire-fighting means in place and beef it up considerably.
But when you dig deep enough in the mud of politics you'll come across between very tight liaisons between those in power and those who want the land....
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:22 pm

The fires are now approaching the historic sites of Olympia..
An estimated 180-200 simultaneous fires are being reported.
Approximately half of Greece is currently affected by fire-outbrakes - the worst catastrophy in Greece since 150 years.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6964345.stm
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Doona
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:28 am

Swedish newspaper DN is reporting that Greek authorities are saying that natural causes for the fires are out of the question.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 5):
The cost of maintaining a decent fleet of Berejev's and Canadairs is peanuts compard to the ecological and human dammage caused by those incidents.I can not detect any determined move in neither Greece,Croatia,Portugal,France or Italy to re-enforce those fire-fighting means in place and beef it up considerably.

Perhaps a joint fire fighting air unit for the Mediterranean countries is a good idea? It would save money for each of the countries, and there's probably some EU money to collect...



Cheers
Mats
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:37 am

Urgent update-
the fire has reached the historic sites of Olympia....
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
aloges
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:47 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 8):
Urgent update-
the fire has reached the historic sites of Olympia....

So essentially, the greed of some is destroying the lives of many Greek, the nature of the country and now part of its history. What a shame.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:54 am

As long as those responsible for arson get away with some minor fines - like in France- things will not improve.
This is actually mass-murder , considering the large amount of victims.Justice has historically and permanently considered arson as some kind of minor act .Its time things change and put a bar to this devastating and ecologically disastrous habit.Not only are there many human victims but the effects on wildlife and forrests is absolutely horrible....
Thousands have lost their homes,jobs and existances.I'm not too optimistic the way Greek politicians will handle the situation...
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:42 am

What if they burned them alive?  devil 
Lex Talionis.

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
I hope they catch at least some of those responsible and put them to jail for the rest of their miserable days....
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:07 am

King Hammurabi of Babylon applied Lex Talionis legislation ( based on equal retaliation..) -I 'm not sure if our legislators are so advanced as the Babylonians...(..probabaly not,considering that for example car theft is considered here in France not even worthwhile for the police to come and see you,they just give you a certificat for the assurance...) -there is more talk on TV about helping the criminals than the victims...
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:40 am

In Monaco there is no need that you set up a fire.
You will be jailed or fined (or both) and immediately dismissed from your job for mocking the Prince, the Prime Minister and/or the government in public or through a web site.

http://rue89.com/2007/08/11/a-monaco...rte-de-prosperer-impose-le-silence

http://www.wikio.fr/news/Marc+Giacone

http://www.bakchich.info/article1502.html

http://www.7sur7.be/hlns/cache/det/a...543.html?wt.bron=hlnBottomArtikels

http://hebdo.nouvelobs.com/hebdo/par...50318-lintermittent_du_rocher.html

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 12):
King Hammurabi of Babylon applied Lex Talionis legislation ( based on equal retaliation..) -I 'm not sure if our legislators are so advanced as the Babylonians...(..probabaly not,considering that for example car theft is considered here in France not even worthwhile for the police to come and see you,they just give you a certificat for the assurance...) -there is more talk on TV about helping the criminals than the victims...
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:16 am

I suggest for all those Mediterranean countries threatened by fires to reduce the number of useless politicians and invest the money saved in better fire-fighting infrastructure. - I know I'm daydreaming but if you see the misery of all those affected and the anticipated bla-bla-bla of the politicians (theoretically ) in charge -...
You wonder if there is any change compared to those days where Julius Cesar wrote about the uselessness of the Senate in Rome...
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
Pyrex
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:50 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
it is supposed that many of the fires have been lit to destroy precious and rare woodland for real-estate speculation.

Well, whenever there is a forest fire (wherever that is) it is always supposed to be for real-estate speculation, bla bla. More often than not it is just (gross?) negligence by the part of rural populations.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 5):
The cost of maintaining a decent fleet of Berejev's and Canadairs is peanuts compard to the ecological and human dammage caused by those incidents

Greece has a HUGE fleet of Canadairs by any measure (last time I counted it was around 25 aircraft) and it still didn't do them any good. If you do not have proper prevention and first strike those are not going to do you any good. For a country like Portugal that argument might be valid but certainly not for Greece.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
Blackbird
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:57 pm

Why have people been starting these fires? What's the motivation?

Andrea Kent
 
rootsair
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:01 pm

Vheck this picture out...pretty shocking indeed !




regards
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:26 pm

The Greek population is increasingly upset with the way the government is tackling -or better not tackling- the crisis.
No central co-ordination HQ for the various fire-fighting forces,very few if none support on-site,mutual political charges without active actions- typical Southern European government shit..
I thought France was bad - but Greece seems to have a price in inefficiency.
Other than talk no action - to the demise of thousands of home and future -less Greek people.
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
lewis
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:46 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 15):

Greece has a HUGE fleet of Canadairs by any measure (last time I counted it was around 25 aircraft) and it still didn't do them any good. If you do not have proper prevention and first strike those are not going to do you any good. For a country like Portugal that argument might be valid but certainly not for Greece.

Yeah but they cannot fly when they are mostly needed, when its windy as hell and the fires get out of control.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 18):
No central co-ordination HQ for the various fire-fighting forces

They have been doing this non stop for the last two months. I do not seem to remember a day during that time when there was no fire burning somewhere around the country. The resources are stretched. Bad thing is that the military did not provide its fire fighting equipment from the beginning.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:13 am

Quoting Lewis (Reply 19):
They have been doing this non stop for the last two months. I do not seem to remember a day during that time when there was no fire burning somewhere around the country. The resources are stretched.

Don't get me wrong- I most definitely don't blame the Canadair crews who have been stretched to their limits - but a country like Greece with a track-record of extremely hot summers and the resulting fires should have put in place a system more performing than what we see currently..
As mentioned earlier in a previous post,there needs to be some form of co-ordinated European response to this evil.
By the time countries like Germany,Norway,Israel or France send their support-teams,the fires have time to destroy thousands of hectares of land.
This whole situations stinks into political spheres...
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
EL-AL
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:24 pm

This is absolutely terrible. I have been to Greece on April this year, visited many of the sites and cities that now under fire. I Can't even imagine the size of those forest fires, when I saw the satellite photo i was shocked, this photo was in the front page of the second-most popular newspaper in Israel and on the middle page of the most popular one.

Israel sent yesterday 50 fire fighters to help the Greek fire fighters, I hope they can Help. The Israeli fire fighters has experience with those kinds of fires: in Israel there are forest fires almost every summer and every fall, some of those fires were men-made. During the war in Lebanon last summer the Katusha missiles caused large scale fires in Northern Israel, and the Israeli Fire fighters handled those fires very well.

All I hope is that the fire will be under control as soon as possible, and there will be no more lost of life and to stop the economical and ecological damage.
every day is a good day to fly
 
iakobos
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:03 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 5):
This article in "Athens News" from August 16 ,describe in the last four paragraphs the reasoning behind many of the fires..

Not exactly: one Mayor says what everyone seems to believe in Greece.
However, if I am not mistaken, legislation was passed whereby burned (forrested) land had automatically to be reforrested (at least in theory) and could not loose its status of "green land", keeping it thereby out of real estate speculators' reach.

It is true that Greece, and in particular (and non-incidentally) the vicinity of Athens has suffered from man-made fires for the better of 30 years.
No government has ever paid lots of attention to the firefighting department. Having been involved at some stage I will refrain from making public a few unbelievable facts (by XXIst century European standards) !
Shame is not lethal in those places...

I do believe that most Greek fires are accidental, be it from a piece of broken glass on a bed of dry leaves, a cigarette butt thrown by a passing driver, a farmer burning some old wood, etc...
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:34 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 16):
Why have people been starting these fires? What's the motivation?





Did you even bother to read the postings before yours? If you had you would have your answer.  

[Edited 2007-08-28 18:35:57]
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:55 am

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 22):
I do believe that most Greek fires are accidental, be it from a piece of broken glass on a bed of dry leaves,

With all due respect for the theoretical probability that some fires have had accidental cause,the sheer frequency,speed,geographical concentration and synchronisation of outbreaks (more than 180 fires..) - there are many arson crimes being committed ...
Neglect in putting up a decisive fire-strategy has cost Greece now hundreds of millions in damage and ruined the lives of many farmers,breeders and destroyed the homes of thousands.One cannot just argue "..we've always burned down scrub-land"...History would be a bad argument to justify what has happened.
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KSYR
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:44 am

I have been following this story closely; what an enormous tragedy. Best wishes to our Greek friends in getting this crisis under control and I sincerely hope that those responsible will pay for what they have done.
 
iakobos
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:41 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 24):
With all due respect for the theoretical probability that some fires have had accidental cause,the sheer frequency,speed,geographical concentration and synchronisation of outbreaks (more than 180 fires..) - there are many arson crimes being committed ...

Sorry but no.

Arson is (also) a convenient excuse to blind the structural deficiencies and total lack of responsibility of the successive Greek governments for the last three decades. At least and perhaps for the first time, a PM has honestly said what was wrong and what is needed (at government's level). Too late for too many.

Add the need for a deep change of mentality of the common citizen (ie. awareness and responsibility) and it might be better in a few years.

Anyone who flew over the Balkans (even Southern Europe at large) in the last weeks has realized that fires were raging everywhere, not exclusively in Greece.

Anyone whom has visited the (forrested) country side knows that the potential for accidental fires under some climatic conditions is not theoritical. That's what happens when people (among other things) drop their waste wherever it suits them.
 
lewis
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:44 pm

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 26):
Sorry but no.

Arson is (also) a convenient excuse to blind the structural deficiencies and total lack of responsibility of the successive Greek governments for the last three decades. At least and perhaps for the first time, a PM has honestly said what was wrong and what is needed (at government's level). Too late for too many.

Add the need for a deep change of mentality of the common citizen (ie. awareness and responsibility) and it might be better in a few years.

Anyone who flew over the Balkans (even Southern Europe at large) in the last weeks has realized that fires were raging everywhere, not exclusively in Greece.

Anyone whom has visited the (forrested) country side knows that the potential for accidental fires under some climatic conditions is not theoritical. That's what happens when people (among other things) drop their waste wherever it suits them.

I cannot comment on the Peloponnese fires but ALL fires in Attica were caused by arsonists. The fire two blocks from my house was caused by a pile of gas cans which I witnessed myself. Same with fires in Penteli, Immitos and Keratea, gas cans and arson devices were found. In northern Greece, deep forest area fires started simultaneously in many different parts where no man could have thrown a cigarette butt or trash that could inflate due to heat. Negligence of local populations is to be blamed in many cases, but unfortunately arson is not just the convenient excuse. Tell me how a fire can start 'naturally' as you say after 9pm when there is no sunlight and then I will accept that arson is just the convenient excuse.
 
iakobos
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:27 pm

Quoting Lewis (Reply 27):
The fire two blocks from my house was caused by a pile of gas cans which I witnessed myself.

So, was it deliberate arson or gross irresponsibility ? (including the neighbours who were aware)

Gas cans, big and small (and you know how popular they are to make Greek coffee), supposedly harmless when empty, are part of waste items. Same goes for cigarette lighters, broken glass, the old fridge. Look around you, especially in the Athens area.

At the precise same period there were huge fires in FYROM, Bulgaria, Romania, Croatia, Serbia, Italy, France
General arson pattern or similar climatic conditions prevailing for weeks ?

Quoting Lewis (Reply 27):
deep forest area fires started simultaneously in many different parts where no man could have thrown a cigarette

Nothing such in Greece. What about hunters, bee-keepers, mushroom seekers, et al
 
lewis
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:56 pm

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 28):

Nothing such in Greece. What about hunters, bee-keepers, mushroom seekers, et al

Wrong. Check fires in northern Greece and the area of Olympos. Apart from few villages, there is just forest with no road access. Was there two weeks before the fires around Krania started. Nothing too serious but just an example. The fire started lower, was immediately extinguished in the afternoon and at night it re-appeared in higher grounds where the access to fire trucks was harder. I do not think their target was to burn and build but it was rather a sicko, a pyromaniac or someone that probably sat there and was 'entertained' while people fought with the fire. You can't imagine how many sick people are out there. When suck criminals are imprisoned for a ridiculously short time, are set free and get arrested again and again it's no wonder that this pattern never stops.

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 28):
So, was it deliberate arson or gross irresponsibility ? (including the neighbours who were aware)

You misunderstood. It was not a pile of waste that happened to contain gas cans (here in Voula waste is not that bad), they were put there deliberately and ignited. This is an area nearby shepherds want to get their hands on for years. Not forest per se, just forest marked area that cannot be built on. We are still looking for the white Opel driver that was seen igniting them by the way....

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 28):
At the precise same period there were huge fires in FYROM, Bulgaria, Romania, Croatia, Serbia, Italy, France
General arson pattern or similar climatic conditions prevailing for weeks ?

Yes it is like that every year. Again, I am not saying that all the fires are act of arson but people take advantage of these climatic conditions. Whenever there is heat and strong winds, to us its the 'joy of the arsonist' and poof, there is ALWAYS a fire. In Greece it was so vast and started at so many places at the same time or at night time that its causes have to be something more than just a broken glass or any other 'natural' cause. The climatic conditions mostly helped a fire that would otherwise be controllable to get completely out of control.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:06 pm

About ten years ago I talked to a firefighter from Vigo in the Spanish province of Galicia. There they also have a serious problem with wildfires in their pine forests. Apparently many fires were laid by unscrupelous timber merchants, who would then buy up the charred trees for a discount price, instead of having to pay the full amount to the forest owner for a fully grown up tree.
This virtually stopped when a law was passed, which prohibited the sale of timber from forest fire areas.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Superfly
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RE: Greece In A State Of National Emergency..!

Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:07 pm

Were any of the forested hillsides in Athens affected?
I went on a nice walk through there last year with a friend I met at the hotel I was staying at. Sad to hear about all of the fires in Greece.
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