tango29
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Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 2:21 am

Hey sports fans

I've been a fan of F1 for about 12 years now and i can't help feeling that ralf has been riding the
F1 train for the past few years just for the money and not the passion of racing. When he came
into F1 with Jordan and then with Williams i really thought he was maybe a future champion and
someone who could challenge his big brother, but since he joined Toyota (for $75m) he's been
outqualified and outpaced by Trulli on a regular basis and on top of that he's turned into a moody
bitch thats a pain in the arse to handle, i ask is it time his big brother bitchslapped him and told
him to get a grip or should Toyota show him the door a hire a young talented driver for the future
like Adrian Sutil or Tonio Liuzzi??
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Beaucaire
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 2:22 am

WIthout his brother he would never ever have made it it into F1 anyhow...
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
tango29
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 2:28 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 1):
WIthout his brother he would never ever have made it it into F1 anyhow...

Very true, he's got worse since micheal retired.
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ba757
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:51 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 1):
WIthout his brother he would never ever have made it it into F1 anyhow...

 checkmark 
 
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LTU932
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:34 am

Quoting Tango29 (Thread starter):
Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Yes. He isn't even remotely as gifted as Michael is. Besides, I can remember a few incidents when Ralf even interfered with Michael's driving, costing his brother a race.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:00 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 1):
WIthout his brother he would never ever have made it it into F1 anyhow...

Quoted for truth. Ralf is a waste of money, and thankfully it appears Toyota won't renew his contract. There is better talent out there, like Vettel or Sutil.
And for comparisons, look at Heidfeld. He only makes a fraction of what Ralf makes, yet he ends up in the points on most of his races, mostly around position 4-5. Granted, his car is more reliable than the TOYota Ralf drives, but just look at the multiple in-race battles Heidfeld has had with Alonso - he definitely knows how to compete on the track, unlike Ralf.
Oh well, once Ralf is out, at least he'll have more time to play with the silicone udders on the brainless piece of plastic he calls a wife.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:05 am

Ralf was a very good talented driver.

But he had to measure up to a yardstick of his brother's record - and only a half-dozen F-1 drivers are in that group.

Without his brother to compare against - Ralf had a successful F-1 career.

But now he is definitely on the downhill side of his racing life. He gets the big money because the family name brings money and attention to his team. He may not be the best racer, but he's the best income producer for the team.

You can't blame a man to taking advantage of opportunity.

You can blame the team management for hiring him.
 
Charles79
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:44 am

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 6):
Without his brother to compare against - Ralf had a successful F-1 career.

That's true, any driver who claims multiple GP wins had a successful F1 career. But Ralf is definitely underperforming, as IMO he could do better than that. The Toyota team must carry the blame as well, for after spending copious amounts of $$$ in F1 they still don't know how to put together a half-decent car.

As for next year, I highly doubt that he'll continue in F1 without a pay cut.

Charles
 
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LTU932
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:15 am

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 7):
As for next year, I highly doubt that he'll continue in F1 without a pay cut.

Not to mention that after this season, Ralf could be sacked as well. I hope Ralf gets sacked, he isn't any good to F1 anyway, regardless of whether Michael is his brother or not.
 
CupraIbiza
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:43 am

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 6):
You can't blame a man to taking advantage of opportunity.

You can blame the team management for hiring him.

Totally agree. It isn't his fault. However that doesn't change the fact that he is a waste of money.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 7):
F1 they still don't know how to put together a half-decent car.

Moving out of Cologne and into the UK should be the first order of business.
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bill142
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:45 pm

http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070830102620.shtml

Toyota are looking at canning ralf at 19 million and hiring someone who'll take 2 million. But no doubt Toyota will find something to waste 17 million on and still wonder why they can't win with a $400 million budget.

No wait, I've found it.

http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070830101955.shtml
 
cornish
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:14 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 1):
WIthout his brother he would never ever have made it it into F1 anyhow...

Actually that's not strictly true. He did win the Japanese F3000 championship when it still actually meant something and when many of the drivers went into F1 from it. Probably better to say that Willi Weber his manager (and Michael's) had more influence in him being in F1 than his brother.

He certainly did enough in lower Formulae to justify getting to F1.


Having said that however, he has long overstayed his welcome. There were times at Williams where he looked the real deal, yet on other occasions he looked anonymous. While Trulli is a good driver, he's not top rank and more often than not he is leaving Ralf well behind.

Unsurprisingly Toyota were looking to replace him earlier in the season, but it wasn't possible for them to get who they wanted. Also Ralf's performances briefly picked up too.....

Much more sensibly Toyota are chasing Nico Rosberg hard for next season - just the type of young hungry driver they need. Sadly for them it seems Nico is more interested in what he drives more than what he is being paid as he apparently doesn't want to go to them - but as Toyota provides Williams with their engines, he may have no choice....


But frankly Ralf is just one of a number of drivers who should be moving out of F1 having been around a long time and no longer add very much, but still take home sizeable salaries. Along with Ralf, there's Fisichella, Trulli, Webber, Coulthard for starters. I'll keep Rubens out of it as his car is rubbish.
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ZakHH
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:55 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 4):
Besides, I can remember a few incidents when Ralf even interfered with Michael's driving, costing his brother a race.

Reminds me of the old joke (works better in German):

F: Was ist der Unterschied zwischen Siegfried & Roy und den Schumacher Brüdern?
A: Der Gesichtsausdruck, wenn der eine dem anderen hinten reinfährt.
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DAL767400ER
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:05 pm

Quoting ZakHH (Reply 12):
Reminds me of the old joke (works better in German):

F: Was ist der Unterschied zwischen Siegfried & Roy und den Schumacher Brüdern?
A: Der Gesichtsausdruck, wenn der eine dem anderen hinten reinfährt.

 rotfl  rotfl  rotfl 
 
sudden
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:06 pm

He sure does not have the same quality as his brother, but a waste of money? No!

Reason for this is that he might actually bring loads of money from his sponsors, and THAT is what this sport is all about. Mucho dineros!

Personally I think he had his chance in F1, and should be replaced.


Aim for the sky!
Sudden
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B747forever
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:18 pm

Quoting Sudden (Reply 14):
and THAT is what this sport is all about. Mucho dineros!

Maybe not for everybody.

Quoting Sudden (Reply 14):
Personally I think he had his chance in F1, and should be replaced.

 checkmark 
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
rfields5421
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:21 am

F-1 is like any other top level sport.

There are a very, very few incredible talents who dominant.

There is a large middle who are in the right place, but will never be more than average in a field where average is so far above the common man it should be worshipped.

There are a few who barely got in the door but relish that they made the big show.

And unfortunately, the dream of breaking out of the middle group into the top group blinds people to the fact that they's slipped from group two to group three.

Be it F-1, NASCAR, Indy cars or baseball -

"Do you realize how good you have to be to be the worst player in the major league?"
 
PanHAM
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:37 am

Quoting Tango29 (Thread starter):
Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Well, you should see his wife !  Cool

signed : Stefan Raab

Quoting ZakHH (Reply 12):
Reminds me of the old joke (works better in German

Good one. Almost as good as the differnence between Jesus and Casanova.
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tango29
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:39 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 5):
Oh well, once Ralf is out, at least he'll have more time to play with the silicone udders on the brainless piece of plastic he calls a wife.


You describe her so well, nice one!



Quoting Cornish (Reply 11):
Probably better to say that Willi Weber his manager (and Michael's) had more influence in him being in F1 than his brother.

Very true, the man has a lot of influence.

Quoting Cornish (Reply 11):
I'll keep Rubens out of it as his car is rubbish.

I feel really sorry for Rubens, in my opinion he is one of the nice guys of F1 and deserves a better car as the
guy has a lot of talent and experience but not much luck on his side.
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B747forever
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:43 am

Quoting Tango29 (Reply 18):
feel really sorry for Rubens, in my opinion he is one of the nice guys of F1 and deserves a better car as the
guy has a lot of talent and experience but not much luck on his side.

Just remember when he drove for Ferrari.
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tango29
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:55 am

Quoting B747forever (Reply 19):
Just remember when he drove for Ferrari.

Yeah he had a lot of good times and some bad i.e Austria (he handled that well)

I would like to see him win his hope GP before he retires but can't really see that happening.
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LTU932
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:52 am

Quoting Cornish (Reply 11):
Much more sensibly Toyota are chasing Nico Rosberg hard for next season - just the type of young hungry driver they need. Sadly for them it seems Nico is more interested in what he drives more than what he is being paid as he apparently doesn't want to go to them

Not to mention that Frank Williams seems to be very pleased with Nico. The problem with Nico is probably the car and the pressure (he is after all the son of Finnish F1 legend Keke Rosberg). Maybe the pressure could give Nico a harder time in the future, just like what happened with Damon Hill in the past, but that's a different issue. The problem with Ralf was never the car or even the pressure of being Michael's kid brother, it was his over aggressive driving and probably a bit arrogance (unlike his brother, Ralf was sort of like Jacques Villeneuve and Juan Pablo Montoya, an asshole). In the end, despite winning titles in lower formulae, he was never really gifted enough to truely compete against the likes of Mika Häkkinnen and Michael Schumacher.

Quoting ZakHH (Reply 12):
F: Was ist der Unterschied zwischen Siegfried & Roy und den Schumacher Brüdern?
A: Der Gesichtsausdruck, wenn der eine dem anderen hinten reinfährt.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

Dude, that was simply priceless!  bigthumbsup 
 
sudden
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:46 pm

Quoting Tango29 (Reply 18):
I feel really sorry for Rubens, in my opinion he is one of the nice guys of F1

I could not agree more, but on the other hand I don't really understand why he signed for Honda. Maybe that was his only choice.
By now, in my mind, he will not get any offer from asny of the top teams anymore. He is stuck in the mid field, just as D.C.

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tango29
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:08 pm

Quoting Sudden (Reply 22):
By now, in my mind, he will not get any offer from asny of the top teams anymore. He is stuck in the mid field, just as D.C.

Very true, but i have to take my hat off to rubens and DC they are both very experienced talented
drivers that are in the twilight of there careers and they are still giving it 100% every week, i know
rubens has a shitbox of a car but he still gets on with it, and DC is driving his heart out and getting
a few points for Red Bull so maybe Ralf should take a look at his elders.
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swissy
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:37 pm

I would say no..... is he over payed? yes

Is Ralf Michael? no

Agree, looking just at Ralfs F1 performance and forget his brother...... he did better than 99.9% of us would do.

Toyota & Honda have the same problem, it seams they can not get the cars going like Ferrari, McLaren, BMW......
the shop location has nothing to do with it as you can see BMW-Sauber is closing in...... but why is their performance so low, considering the "endless" flow of $$$$$ and engineer resources they have...........

Cheers,
 
bill142
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:07 pm

Quoting Swissy (Reply 24):

Toyota & Honda have the same problem, it seams they can not get the cars going like Ferrari, McLaren, BMW......
the shop location has nothing to do with it as you can see BMW-Sauber is closing in...... but why is their performance so low, considering the "endless" flow of $$$$$ and engineer resources they have...........

It's their management structures. Tokyo needs leave them alone and do what they do best and go racing. Perhaps employing some people who know a thing or two about managing racing teams wouldn't go astray.
 
swissy
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:22 pm

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 25):
It's their management structures. Tokyo needs leave them alone and do what they do best and go racing. Perhaps employing some people who know a thing or two about managing racing teams wouldn't go astray.

Agree that is for sure one of the main reason, also what I have been told is the turn over of very qualified engineers has been high, I guess due to the HQ engineer development program of Honda & Toyota......

Never less it is a pleasure to see how Heidfeld has a fire under his a... again since Kubi joined the team, I think same should be possible for Honda and Toyota...... Trulli/Schumacher & Barrichello/Button are closed matched within their own teams over all......

Cheers,
 
tango29
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:55 am

Another poor showing for Ralf again today finished 15th and a lap down surely Toyota must be getting
fed up with these results every grand prix.
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:57 am

Quoting Tango29 (Thread starter):

I think he´s just there because of his brother
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tango29
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:33 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 28):
I think he´s just there because of his brother

Not for much longer, i can think of better drivers that deserve his seat, Sutil,liuzzi and davidson
could do a better job.
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dhhornet
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:47 am

Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Yes!

Runs hot and cold. Good one day crap the next. Send him Nascar racing!
 
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LTU932
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:40 am

Quoting DHHornet (Reply 30):
Send him Nascar racing!

I highly doubt NASCRAP may want a loser like Ralf Schumacher. Getting Montoya to join them was already pushing the boundaries a bit.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:31 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 21):
The problem with Ralf was never the car or even the pressure of being Michael's kid brother, it was his over aggressive driving and probably a bit arrogance (unlike his brother, Ralf was sort of like Jacques Villeneuve and Juan Pablo Montoya, an asshole).

I have heard exactly the opposite from somebody who knows both brothers quite well (a former colleague in CGN, who went to car mechanics school Kerpen with the two brothers, actually Ralf was a class mate, while Michael was a year or so ahead). Acc. to the guy, Michael was the one who had exact ideas of what he wanted and he would care of nobody to get it. You can see it also in his aggressive driving style.
Ralf was much less aggressive and more easygoing.
I also heard comments about Ralf from another ex-colleague, who now works for Toyota. This guy is doing stock car races (all he can afford) and is a racing fanatic, who regularly helps out at Nuerenburg Ring. He said that, when they had a meeting of all the volunteer marshallers and rescue people, Ralf Schuhmacher was the only one of the racing drivers who dropped in and said thank you to all the volunteers.

It seems that Ralf's problems stem from not having his brother's killer instingct and essentially by being a nice guy.

Jan
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CupraIbiza
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:53 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 32):
It seems that Ralf's problems stem from not having his brother's killer instingct and essentially by being a nice guy.

cmon lets not beat around the bush. His lack of talent has a fair bit to do with it as well.
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LTU932
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:33 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 32):
It seems that Ralf's problems stem from not having his brother's killer instingct and essentially by being a nice guy.

Or the killer instinct is there, but not properly used.
 
CupraIbiza
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:55 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 34):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 32):
It seems that Ralf's problems stem from not having his brother's killer instingct and essentially by being a nice guy.

Or the killer instinct is there, but not properly used.

Or he is just no good. I have heard the lastest excuse made for him is the switch to Bridgestone. Puh-lease - spare me!
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LTU932
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:02 pm

Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 35):
Or he is just no good. I have heard the lastest excuse made for him is the switch to Bridgestone. Puh-lease - spare me!

And to Ralf: So what? Michael never bitched about the switch to Bridgestone when Goodyear left F1.
 
bill142
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:40 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 36):

And to Ralf: So what? Michael never bitched about the switch to Bridgestone when Goodyear left F1.

And let's not forget that Toyota switched to Bridgestone last season. So he's had more time the most to adjust.
 
legoguy
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:02 pm

Here are some stats from Ralf's career in F1;

Races 178 (176 starts)
Championships 0
Wins 6
Podium finishes 27
Pole positions 6
Career points 329
Fastest laps 7

If looking at his career as a whole, no he certainly was not a waste of money.

This season he is only 2 points behind his teammate Jarno Trulli (Trulli has 7, Ralf has 5), and has finished infront of Trulli 5 times this season.

Overall, I believe his salery demands are too high, but he is of value to several teams.
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CupraIbiza
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:30 am

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 38):
If looking at his career as a whole, no he certainly was not a waste of money.

Statistics like anything can tell any story.

If you look at the quality of teams he has been in then you cannot argue that 6 victories is a decent return.

Also when he has been at lesser teams he has been unable to improve them. Look at what his brother did in his only race with Jordan. Or his early days at Bennetton. This is someone who is worth the money.

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 38):
Overall, I believe his salary demands are too high, but he is of value to several teams.

Isnt this another way of saying that Ralf is a waste of money?
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LTU932
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:35 am

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 37):
And let's not forget that Toyota switched to Bridgestone last season. So he's had more time the most to adjust.

I didn't notice that. Anyway, Ralf bitching about the tyres is so last year...
 
legoguy
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:06 pm

Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 39):
Isnt this another way of saying that Ralf is a waste of money?

Sort of yes, sort of, no. While he is not worth the money he is currently being paid (I do not know the exact amount however have read it is quite high), however he is not totally worthless as his experience is worth having, especially for the smaller teams such as Spyker and Super Aguri and maybe Torro Rosso.
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tango29
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RE: Is Ralf Schumacher A Waste Of Money?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:45 am

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 41):
While he is not worth the money he is currently being paid (I do not know the exact amount however have read it is quite high),

$75m over 3 years, great investment by Toyota.
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