sy738fan
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:51 am

Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:48 pm

Didn't see this one coming, but it will certainly shake things up a bit in middle America!

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/08/30/iowa.samesexmarriage/index.html

It will also be interesting to see how the various presidential candidates respond, given that most of them have been camped out in Iowa for quite some time now.

Any Iowans on here have any insight on what we can expect when this gets appealed to the state Supreme Court?
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Boeing744
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RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:38 pm

Good news for Iowa! I have a friend there, and I will ask what he thinks will happen about this. I know he himself would be totally for it, and he has said people around his area (Cedar Rapids) are quite progressive.
 
checkraiser
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RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:44 pm

Quoting SY738fan (Thread starter):
but it will certainly shake things up a bit in middle America!

Not really. Here in WI there was a similar ban on the books. A constitutional amendment was introduced to ban gay marriage, and the governor vehemently opposed it saying there were laws already in place.

The proponents of the ban insisted it needed to pass so 'activist judges' wouldn't overturn the existing law banning it. It very easily passed a statewide referendum last November, 60%-40%.

Iowa could probably expect similar results.
N1120A is a camel-fucking terrorist.
 
stlgph
Posts: 9179
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RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:22 pm

It's another joyous day. 6 lesbians wanna live happily ever after and walk their dogs in the park after work (and probably picking up trash while doing so) yet the whole state's gonna go to shit.

...yet more people can't seem to find the USA on a map?!?!? hmmm...
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johnboy
Posts: 2561
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RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:06 pm

Yay for Iowa!!!!

I almost want to move there just to take advantage.

ALMOST.

John
 
sy738fan
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:51 am

RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:49 pm

Quoting Checkraiser (Reply 2):
Iowa could probably expect similar results.

Ultimately, yes, that has been the sequence of events all over the country. The difference is that for the time being, gay couples will be able to legally marry in Polk County (unless the court grants a stay). I'm sure the gay train is already loading up applicants in ORD and MSP  Wink
False. I do not miss Jim.
 
stlgph
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RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:58 pm

Quoting SY738fan (Reply 5):

Of course Iowa did just pass a law that bans discrimination against people for being gay, too.

Talk about a fun mix.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
stlgph
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RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:03 am

History's made!

The first same sex coupled married around 10:30 a-m this morning in Des Moines.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
Falcon84
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RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:04 am

Good for Iowa.

But left to the Republicans, it would be a moot point, since Uncle Sam knows better in their eyes.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
stlgph
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RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:07 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
But left to the Republicans, it would be a moot point, since Uncle Sam knows better in their eyes

and they say they want less government...
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:21 am

Quoting SY738fan (Reply 5):
that has been the sequence of events all over the country.

In most cases yes, though there've been glimmers of hope-- witness AZ

Quoting STLGph (Reply 9):
and they say they want less government...

Until it comes down to leveraging social issues they cannot comprehend.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
N1120A
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RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:52 am

Quoting SY738fan (Thread starter):
Didn't see this one coming

Actually, I thought the same at first but then thought again and wasn't so shocked. Iowa tends to be one of the most progressive states in the Midwest.

Quoting Checkraiser (Reply 2):

The proponents of the ban insisted it needed to pass so 'activist judges' wouldn't overturn the existing law banning it.

Your so-called "activist judges" could still overturn the laws based on the US Constitution.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
D L X
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RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
Your so-called "activist judges" could still overturn the laws based on the US Constitution.

Yup.

How do you define "activist judge?" An activist judge is one that deviates from what you ask him to do.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:12 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 12):
How do you define "activist judge?" An activist judge is one that deviates from what you ask him to do.

Actually, an "activist judge" is one that does the opposite of what you like. That is the modern definition.

Case in point: Mr. Bush sites "activist" judges who approve of gay marriage. But he would approve of a judge being "activist" who would completely remove gay marriage from the books. It all is in our own point of view.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
SNCNtry32
Posts: 552
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:22 am

RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:53 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
Actually, I thought the same at first but then thought again and wasn't so shocked. Iowa tends to be one of the most progressive states in the Midwest.

How so, I think Minnesota is.
Long Live Memphis!
 
huskyaviation
Posts: 912
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:37 am

Awesome news (at least temporarily) for Iowa...now we'll see what the Iowa Supreme Court does, it could all be a moot point. Anybody know what the composition of the Iowa SC is?

Don't go rushing to Iowa to get married though, most states won't recognize out-of-state gay marriages.

One of these days this issue is going to make it to the US Supreme Court--I attended a luncheon this year with Sandra Day O'Connor and she said she thought the issue will eventually be heard by the Court, but of course she wouldn't say how she thought it would be decided. I think it would be a close call, but I think there are 5 votes for legalizing gay marriage (Kennedy (the big question mark), Stevens, Ginsburg, Breyer, Souter).
 
N1120A
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RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:53 am

Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 14):

How so, I think Minnesota is.

Minnesota is a bit different in that it is so far north as to not be affected by the more conservative southern thought. Iowa is a true culture clash but tends to maintain a surprisingly progressive stance.

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 15):

Don't go rushing to Iowa to get married though, most states won't recognize out-of-state gay marriages.

Which, of course, violates full faith and credit.

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 15):
but I think there are 5 votes for legalizing gay marriage (Kennedy (the big question mark), Stevens, Ginsburg, Breyer, Souter).

I wouldn't be totally shocked if Roberts voted on that side as well.

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 15):
I attended a luncheon this year with Sandra Day O'Connor and she said she thought the issue will eventually be heard by the Court, but of course she wouldn't say how she thought it would be decided.

Based on her concurrence (which should have been the opinion of the court) in Lawrence, it is pretty obvious how she would vote.
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huskyaviation
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Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:45 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
Which, of course, violates full faith and credit.

Although I agree that states should recognize those marriages, Congress passed DOMA in 1996 which says states don't have to recognize them. Full faith and credit doesnt necessarily apply here--it primarily refers to states respecting other states' judicial proceedings and judgments and there is a public policy exception wide enough to drive a truck through as determined by the Supreme Court in Pac. Employers Insurance v. Industrial Accident (1939).

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
Based on her concurrence (which should have been the opinion of the court) in Lawrence, it is pretty obvious how she would vote.

Well O'Connor no longer sits on the Court so her vote wouldn't matter much.  Silly

Her concurrence in Lawrence was fairly well-reasoned under equal protection grounds, but I think Kennedy's majority opinion really left the door open on the issue by not explicitly stating the level of scrutiny that would be used under the substantive due process. Most lawsuits filed in support of gay marriage have used both the due process and equal protection arguments, so it could come out in favor of gays under one or both.
 
D L X
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Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:09 am

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 17):
Although I agree that states should recognize those marriages, Congress passed DOMA in 1996 which says states don't have to recognize them.

DOMA is unconstitutional because it violates Full Faith and Credit.

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 17):
it primarily refers to states respecting other states' judicial proceedings and judgments

A marriage IS a state judicial proceeding and judgment though. The public policy exception is there, but for a state to execute that exception, they have to have a constitutional reason to do it. "We don't like gays" is not constitutional, and choosing which genders can marry whom is not constitutional either (as will eventually be determined).
 
huskyaviation
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Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:36 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 18):
A marriage IS a state judicial proceeding and judgment though.

I disagree with that. Marriage is a creature of statute now, not a judicial proceeding. Therefore, I don't think DOMA is unconstitutional on those grounds because the public policy exception for state statutes is much wider than for judicial proceedings. Besides, isn't matrimonial law in general covered by state choice-of-law rules? States don't have to recognize out-of-state common law marriages if they choose not to.
 
D L X
Posts: 11701
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RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:42 am

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 19):
Marriage is a creature of statute now, not a judicial proceeding.

I don't agree with that. When you get married, you go to a Justice of the Peace (judge) or the state delegates to an Officiant. You get your marriage registered with the state, just like if you buy a house. These are all judicial proceedings, and these are exactly the types of things that the Full Faith and Credit Clause was meant to protect, and that's exactly why the Loving case went down the way it did. (The Lovings got married in DC and wanted to live in Virginia.)
 
huskyaviation
Posts: 912
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:57 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 20):
I don't agree with that. When you get married, you go to a Justice of the Peace (judge) or the state delegates to an Officiant. You get your marriage registered with the state, just like if you buy a house. These are all judicial proceedings, and these are exactly the types of things that the Full Faith and Credit Clause was meant to protect, and that's exactly why the Loving case went down the way it did. (The Lovings got married in DC and wanted to live in Virginia.)

The state action required is a marriage license usually issued by the town/county clerk. How is that a judicial proceeding? The state sets certain parameters that the couple must meet in order to be married (age being one of the primary factors, blood test, perhaps man/woman, etc.) and thereafter the clerk cannot deny the couple a marriage license. There is no proceeding--if anything, it would be considered an administrative proceeding. That would be akin to saying getting a driver's license is a judicial proceeding just because your name is registered with the issuing state.

IIRC, Loving was decided on equal protection grounds of invidious racial discrimination, not full faith and credit. Race classifications receive strict scrutiny, which the SC has already said that sexual orientation classifications receive rational basis review.
 
SNCNtry32
Posts: 552
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RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:34 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
Minnesota is a bit different in that it is so far north as to not be affected by the more conservative southern thought. Iowa is a true culture clash but tends to maintain a surprisingly progressive stance.

And thats why Minnesota is constantly a swing state come election time?
Long Live Memphis!
 
D L X
Posts: 11701
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RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:48 am

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 21):
IIRC, Loving was decided on equal protection grounds of invidious racial discrimination, not full faith and credit.

That is correct, but the reason why it was a big deal was because it was the enforcement of another jurisdiction's marriage. Virginia had to give full faith and credit to the judgment of DC -- they couldn't just say "yall ain't married." Instead, they tried them for having a criminal marriage. Obviously, it was against Virginia's public policy at the time to allow the interracial marriages accepted by other jurisdictions, but that wasn't enough for them to get out of giving full faith and credit to the marriage from the other jurisdiction.

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 21):
The state action required is a marriage license usually issued by the town/county clerk.

But you hit the nail on the head with the first 3 words -- "state action." Judgments do not have to be courtroom proceedings.
 
huskyaviation
Posts: 912
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:55 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 23):
But you hit the nail on the head with the first 3 words -- "state action." Judgments do not have to be courtroom proceedings.

I don't agree with your assertion that all state action is considered to be a "judgment." If that were the case there would be no differences in state law. If there is no controversy, there can be no judgment.

If the Loving case had been decided purely on full faith and credit terms, then the Court would not have invalidated the Virginia statute as such; it merely would have forced Virginia to recognize the legal DC marriage. By deciding the case on equal protection grounds it invalidated the Virginia statute on its face, which is a significant difference.
 
N1120A
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RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:05 am

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 17):
Congress passed DOMA in 1996 which says states don't have to recognize them.

And DOMA clearly violates FFC

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 17):
Full faith and credit doesnt necessarily apply here--it primarily refers to states respecting other states' judicial proceedings and judgments

Well, this is a judgment, now isn't it? Further, it is the courts that license and officially sanction marriages, which means that marriages essentially function as judgment decrees anyway.

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 17):

Her concurrence in Lawrence was fairly well-reasoned under equal protection grounds, but I think Kennedy's majority opinion really left the door open on the issue by not explicitly stating the level of scrutiny that would be used under the substantive due process.

Her concurrence was spot on under equal protection and should have been the opinion of the court. Kennedy's due process opinion was clearly an attempt, which will likely be successful, to extend intermediate scrutiny to sexual orientation.

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 19):
Marriage is a creature of statute now, not a judicial proceeding.

Not really. See above.

Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 22):

And thats why Minnesota is constantly a swing state come election time?

It is a swing state in the media's eyes only. In reality, it is a left of center state that will really only go with a Republican if there is a perception of economic, but not social, conservatism.
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huskyaviation
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RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:31 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):
And DOMA clearly violates FFC

Would you care to expand on that very broad statement? That is also a judgment--one you haven't bothered to back up with anything except an opinion.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):
Well, this is a judgment, now isn't it? Further, it is the courts that license and officially sanction marriages, which means that marriages essentially function as judgment decrees anyway.

No, it depends on the state in which you are married. In many states the town clerk sanctions the marriage which is an administrative position and not a judicial position. The state legislature sanctions marriage by statute. For example, setting age requirements and mandating that parental consent is required for people under the age of 18 to be married.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):
Her concurrence was spot on under equal protection and should have been the opinion of the court. Kennedy's due process opinion was clearly an attempt, which will likely be successful, to extend intermediate scrutiny to sexual orientation.

The Court had already determined in Kennedy's opinion in Romer that rational basis review is used for sexual orientation classification under equal protection. Kennedy used the due process approach because he could leave the scrutiny level undetermined. O'Connor's opinion wanted to have it all ways: leave Bowers v. Hardwick in place, try to prevent the equal protection analysis from being extended to gay marriage, and at the same time overturn the Texas law. It was inconsistent to say the least. Scalia's dissent as I recall called her on this and gutted it. That is why no one joined her concurrence.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:44 am

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 26):

Would you care to expand on that very broad statement?

It is plain in the language.

"Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State"

It does not just apply to judicial proceedings, in fact it explicitly goes beyond.

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 26):
one you haven't bothered to back up with anything except an opinion.

No opinion there, it is right there in the language.

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 26):
The state legislature sanctions marriage by statute. For example, setting age requirements and mandating that parental consent is required for people under the age of 18 to be married.

Under your example, marriage acts as a public record, also falls under FFC.

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 26):

The Court had already determined in Kennedy's opinion in Romer that rational basis review is used for sexual orientation classification under equal protection.

Yes, but that was pre-Lawrence. Chemerinsky has stated that the door is now open to Intermediate Scrutiny.
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huskyaviation
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Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:56 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
It is plain in the language.

"Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State"

It does not just apply to judicial proceedings, in fact it explicitly goes beyond.

The Court has long interpreted differentiations within this clause, it isn't enough to just quote the language. The Court has explicitly adopted a public policy exception to FFC:

"There are some limitations upon the extent to which a state may be required by the full faith and credit clause to enforce even the judgment of another state in contravention of its own statutes or policy. And in the case of statutes...the full faith and credit clause does not require one state to substitute for its own statute, applicable to persons and events within it, the conflicting statute of another state, even though that statute is of controlling force in the courts of the state of its enactment with respect to the same persons and events." Pac. Employers Ins. v. Industrial Accident (US 1939).

"Our precedent differentiates the credit owed to laws (legislative measures and common law) and to judgments." Franchise Tax Board v. Hyatt (US 2003).
 
huskyaviation
Posts: 912
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:59 am

Just as an aside it's not as though I don't want the SC to legalize same-sex marriage. My partner of 6 years and I would love to get married in our state of Maryland, or at least have access to an equivalent status. I just disagree with the FFC assertions  Smile
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:24 pm

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 28):

"There are some limitations upon the extent to which a state may be required by the full faith and credit clause to enforce even the judgment of another state in contravention of its own statutes or policy. And in the case of statutes...the full faith and credit clause does not require one state to substitute for its own statute, applicable to persons and events within it, the conflicting statute of another state, even though that statute is of controlling force in the courts of the state of its enactment with respect to the same persons and events." Pac. Employers Ins. v. Industrial Accident (US 1939).

Pacific Employers Insurance applied to specific statutory application, not to public records like here. That case was about choice of law and enforcement of law, not about granting full faith and credits to Public Acts, Records and Judgments. The sanction of marriage is the public recording of a contract, which the full faith and credit clause explicitly includes, much like it does with judgments. Since it is explicit, Baker v. General Motors controls and FFC must be granted.
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D L X
Posts: 11701
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RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:02 pm

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 24):
If the Loving case had been decided purely on full faith and credit terms

Loving wasn't decided on FFC grounds at all. That wasn't the point. The point was that *because* of FFC, Virginia had to accept the marriage issued by the acts of DC. They weren't able to squeeze out of it by claiming a public policy exception. In other words, had they been able to ignore FFC, there never would have been a supreme court cases.

I am quite convinced (especially with a Democrat likely taking the white house) that DOMA will be struck down in 2009 and gay marriage bans will be held unconstitutional. Then, the next step is gay marriage in every state in 2010. And then we'll have forgotten about it when people realize that married gays are just as miserable as married straights in 2011.
 
huskyaviation
Posts: 912
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:38 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 31):
Loving wasn't decided on FFC grounds at all. That wasn't the point. The point was that *because* of FFC, Virginia had to accept the marriage issued by the acts of DC. They weren't able to squeeze out of it by claiming a public policy exception. In other words, had they been able to ignore FFC, there never would have been a supreme court cases.

I totally agree with you, I said that Loving wasn't decided on FFC grounds. The public policy exception in that case wouldn't apply anyway because it was a racial classification. The public policy *may* apply because sexual orientation classifications simply don't need to get past strict scrutiny--it's only rational basis. That's a much easier standard for a state government and Congress to get past in court.

Quoting D L X (Reply 31):
I am quite convinced (especially with a Democrat likely taking the white house) that DOMA will be struck down in 2009 and gay marriage bans will be held unconstitutional.

We can certainly hope! I would like to see the Democrats stop paying lip service to this issue and actually take a stand rather than trying to straddle the fence on it because they are afraid to alienate centrist/right-leaning voters. I understand the political strategy but if the Democrats truly want to be an inclusive party they're gonna have to step up to the plate for gay rights and stop taking the gay vote for granted. Congressional Democrats and the presidential candidates haven't done all that much for gay rights.

Quoting D L X (Reply 31):
And then we'll have forgotten about it when people realize that married gays are just as miserable as married straights in 2011.

LOL too true. Straights have already screwed marriage up plenty, there's not much gays could do to the institution at this point!  Big grin
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Iowa Court Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban

Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:14 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 31):

I am quite convinced (especially with a Democrat likely taking the white house)

Well, it was Hillary's husband who signed DOMA into law in the first place.
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