Falcon84
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President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:03 pm

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/

Can't our President just talk lke someone intelligent, and not a cowboy? He's already in deep shit over Iraq, then he talks like this?

Another embarrassment.
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:25 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Can't our President just talk lke someone intelligent, and not a cowboy? He's already in deep shit over Iraq, then he talks like this?

Another embarrassment.

As much as I agree, I really dont see the point of this thread other than to bash bush, similar to some posts where the neo-cons here bash the Democractic Candidates. I dont think he can change the way he talks, he just isnt a good speaker with a vocabulary that is rivaled by a 13-year old valley girl.
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:14 pm

But Falcon... we ARE kicking ass in Iraq!!

And the President said this while talking to the deputy prime minister. It's not like he said this to a group of press (like the "Bring it on" comment).

You're really going to give the guy grief for having a conversation with someone, that happened to be overheard by a reporter? At least the comment was positive. I'd rather have a million "We're kicking ass" comments, instead of one "Iraq is a failure comment."

Which does more damage, Falcon? President Bush's comment, or the Democrats bitching about how Iraq is a failure?

-UH60
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:22 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2):
But Falcon... we ARE kicking ass in Iraq!!

Yeah, we're surely bringing stability to the region, this is an unending conflict and the Americans do no benefit by staying there. The so called "terrorists" werent there when we attacked, and then all of a sudden they came in from all corners of the world trying to engage the Americans. This so called "surge" is a temporary thing, you might be able to kill thousands of insurgents, but they just keep on coming, and this movement of global islamic terrorism cannot be stopped by killing a few thousand of them.
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NWA742
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:23 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Can't our President just talk lke someone intelligent, and not a cowboy? He's already in deep shit over Iraq, then he talks like this?

Another embarrassment.

Oh give me a freaking a break, Falcon.

There's simply no way you're dull enough to actually think this is of any real consequence.........you're simply grasping every single damn opportunity you can to bash Bush.

It's that simple, and it's ridiculous.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 1):
As much as I agree, I really dont see the point of this thread other than to bash bush



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2):
Which does more damage, Falcon? President Bush's comment, or the Democrats bitching about how Iraq is a failure?

 checkmark 




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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:24 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Can't our President just talk lke someone intelligent, and not a cowboy? He's already in deep shit over Iraq, then he talks like this?

Qualifying to fly fighter jets, being elected twice as president, governor of Texas, somewhat successful oil-man, are you embarrassed a cowboy acheived more than you will in your life ? The way you attack anything conservative but defend embarrassments such as clinton, your partisanship is showing again.  Yeah sure
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mt99
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:26 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2):
Which does more damage, Falcon? President Bush's comment, or the Democrats bitching about how Iraq is a failure?

Isnt the first step to overcoming alcoholism is admitting you have a problem?

Trust me on this one - this is a political move to justify troop reductions.

[Edited 2007-09-07 06:27:59]
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Toast
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:27 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2):
You're really going to give the guy grief for having a conversation with someone, that happened to be overheard by a reporter?

A diplomat should always refrain from talking like a yokel when reporters are around.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2):
Which does more damage, Falcon? President Bush's comment, or the Democrats bitching about how Iraq is a failure?

Neither make any difference whatsoever.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2):
I'd rather have a million "We're kicking ass" comments, instead of one "Iraq is a failure comment."

You'd rather be served a hollow compliment a million times than hear the truth once?
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:31 pm

Quoting Toast (Reply 7):
You'd rather be served a hollow compliment a million times than hear the truth once?

Oh shit dude, that is the best I've ever heard, welcome to my RU. As much as I dont care what Bush says now, the way he says things, its really annoying when we are fed this BS that we're actually making progress.
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Confuscius
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:36 pm

we ARE kicking ass in Iraq!!

Now we know who are doing all the fighting over there. And it ain't the...
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:38 pm

What is the point of this thread? We know you hate Bush.

Nice source.

 Yeah sure
 
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:39 pm

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 6):

Trust me on this one - this is a political move to justify troop reductions.

No... the reductions are needed on a very simple fact: We don't have the troop strength to maintain the current level. Of the Army's 38 brigades, all of them are either deployed, getting ready to deploy, or returning from a deployment.

The only way we can keep the level up is increase the deployment cycles beyond 15 months. Speed up the deployments of National Guard units... many of whom were promised that they would have 5 years off. Get troops from other countries to assist. Or institute a draft.

None of which are very likely.

Quoting Toast (Reply 7):
Neither make any difference whatsoever.

 redflag 

Bull.

If you don't think the leaders of both the House and the Senate saying that Iraq is lost, doesn't hurt the effort, then you're high.

Been there - and I assure you that they pay just as close to the news as we do. They hear those words and it effects their opinion, just as it does ours.

Even from an operational point of view, if you were fighting an enemy, and you heard that high ranking leaders in your enemy's government were publicly calling the fight with you a failure... would you not be emboldened by that?

Quoting Toast (Reply 7):

You'd rather be served a hollow compliment a million times than hear the truth once?

 redflag  Bullsh*t. Again.

Read my thread that I quoted above.

When I say that we're kicking ass, I'm not joking. We're kicking ass, taking names and smashing them hard. Good times.

-UH60
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:48 pm

Now who am I going to take notice of here...Toast, MT99, LAXSpotter, with their armchair politics, or UH60, who's been there and fought the fight and sees what the media doesn't report and what most everyone else on a.net hasn't see?

Gee, thats a tought decision  sarcastic 

Thanks for the voice of truth, UH60.
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:49 pm

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 9):

Now we know who are doing all the fighting over there. And it ain't the...



The wrong answers just keep rolling in.

I went to Iraq this last time to specifically work with the Iraqi forces.

I was impressed with the level of improvements made on the streets, since I was last there this past spring. And I was also impressed with the Iraqis I worked with.

Not only did they actually understand what they were suppose to do, they were effectively putting the lessons and training we taught them... and using them correctly on the battlefield.

Look, where is the biggest failure? The national government. Why any of us thought we could successfully achieve our goals on all fronts, at the same time, is beyond me. General Petreaus's methodical approach to this situation has definitely allowed us to get a better grip on the situation. THAT is a fact.

-UH60

[Edited 2007-09-07 06:51:52]
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Toast
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:53 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 11):
if you were fighting an enemy, and you heard that high ranking leaders in your enemy's government were publicly calling the fight with you a failure... would you not be emboldened by that?

If I was honest enough to admit I was fighting the wrong people in the wrong country under a bullshit pretext, no amount of cheerleading from my superiors or feigned defeatism from the "enemy" would make me able to look at myself in a mirror.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 11):
We're kicking ass, taking names and smashing them hard. Good times.

Good times indeed. Yee-haw.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 11):
Get troops from other countries to assist. Or institute a draft.

Good luck.
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:55 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Can't our President just talk lke someone intelligent, and not a cowboy? He's already in deep shit over Iraq, then he talks like this?

Falcon your rhetoric is about a stale as the snizz between Hillarys legs. It's the same crap with you over and over again. I am glad we are kicking ass in Iraq, it's much better than getting our ass kicked. Wouldn't you agree? And I am glad that Bush has his moments where he seems like a normal guy. His remark wasn't cowboy like at all. If he rode a Tomahawk missile with a cowboy hat in one hand yelling 'yippie kay yay yeah mother fuc@#rs" then I could see him being compared to a cowboy. You're drawing for straws, and it's a poor attempt.
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mt99
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:55 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 11):
No... the reductions are needed on a very simple fact: We don't have the troop strength to maintain the current level. Of the Army's 38 brigades, all of them are either deployed, getting ready to deploy, or returning from a deployment.

Oh i agree with you completly. But just wait and see how it gets spinned in a way to appeal to the 70%+ of the population who favors troop withdrawal Just in time for the 2008 election campaign

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 12):
Now who am I going to take notice of here...Toast, MT99,

I feel honored that i got noticed  Smile
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:57 pm

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 12):
Now who am I going to take notice of here...Toast, MT99, LAXSpotter, with their armchair politics, or UH60, who's been there and fought the fight and sees what the media doesn't report and what most everyone else on a.net hasn't see?

Gee, thats a tought decision

Exactly.

Falcon knows without a doubt I respect his opinion, and him . . . but this is a simple plain straightforward 'let's bash PotUS' thread.

Sorry, waste of a thread . . .
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:00 pm

Quoting Toast (Reply 14):
If I was honest enough to admit I was fighting the wrong people in the wrong country under a bullshit pretext, no amount of cheerleading from my superiors or feigned defeatism from the "enemy" would make me able to look at myself in a mirror.

But there you go... I don't need "cheerleading from my superiors" to let me know that we're kicking ass. I saw it first hand. I participated it in, first hand.

Look, I am not saying that we are going to win the war. I've had my hopes dashed far too many times, to know that we're a long way from that.

...But when I say that the summer surge is having impressive results, and that the surge is improving security, I say it with certainly. I saw it and I was amazed at what we were able to do in just one summer. It's amazing how cleaning house (Gen P brought over his own "wiz-team" when he took command), how increasing troop levels (which those of us who've been to Iraq have been saying we needed, for a very long time) and a tough and aggressive strategy, can do.

It's a totally different ball game, then back in early 2006, when I arrived in Iraq.

I don't know if we'll win. I don't know if the Iraqi government will get their shit together and actually govern. But I DO KNOW that we're kicking ass, and the surge is producing good results.

-UH60
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:01 pm

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 12):
or UH60, who's been there and fought the fight and sees what the media doesn't report

ever come across that maybe some people have relatives in the Middle east? I guess not, ever come across that some people have agendas and need self-supporting words of consolement to ignore what this war has led to, its a failed effort and 3,500 and counting soldiers have died for no reason. Our objective was to take out Saddam and his sons, now its become a prolonged conflict where we just sit and wait until what the Iraqis take control of their country, like that is ever going to happen...
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:03 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 18):
But I DO KNOW that we're kicking ass, and the surge is producing good results.

What exactly is good results? killing more insurgents, less American deaths per month, the poltical situation is shitty as you pointed out, and I dont think its gonna get better, and you noted that its too far-fetched to think we're gonna win the war, so why fight on and see your comrades die in a lost cause?
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:06 pm

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 5):
Qualifying to fly fighter jets, being elected twice as president, governor of Texas, somewhat successful oil-man, are you embarrassed a cowboy acheived more than you will in your life ? The way you attack anything conservative but defend embarrassments such as clinton, your partisanship is showing again. Yeah sure

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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:08 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2):
But Falcon... we ARE kicking ass in Iraq!!

I wouldn't go that far. We're certainly doing better than we have been, but Iraq needs to make some more consistent progress across the board before I'd say that we're kicking ass. If we continue at this rate, we'll get to ass-kicking soon enough, but we're not there yet, at least on the national scale.

I do agree, however, that while it would probably have been better for Bush to use some more decorum, in the big scheme of things it's virtually insignificant.

-Mir
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Toast
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:10 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 18):
I don't know if we'll win. I don't know if the Iraqi government will get their shit together and actually govern. But I DO KNOW that we're kicking ass, and the surge is producing good results.

How would you define "winning" in Iraq?

I wish you all the best over there, I've talked to a lot of people involved in Iraq and I realize what a nightmare it is to be stationed there. I still remain profoundly skeptical as for the outcome of this adventure.
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QANTAS077
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:15 pm

well APEC is now OPEC or the Iraq summit and the Australian forces are now Austrian, all this and he hasn't even been here 3 days.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22378059-5013109,00.html



never mind that the man he made the 'kicking ass' comment to found his speech, well, tiring to say the least.
 
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:19 pm

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 20):
What exactly is good results? killing more insurgents, less American deaths per month, the poltical situation is shitty as you pointed out, and I dont think its gonna get better, and you noted that its too far-fetched to think we're gonna win the war, so why fight on and see your comrades die in a lost cause?

Good results?

When it comes to security, every measurable indicator showed a reduction.

-Less IEDs.
-Less VBIEDs.
-Less motar attacks
-Less probing gun fire into FOBs
-Less convoy engagement by SAR
-Less bullets fired by US troops
-Less engagements initiated by insurgents
-Less Iraqi civilian deaths
-Less US troop combat deaths

And what numbers are up?

-In the entire year of 2006, we found ~2600 insurgent weapon caches. We've found ~3800 in the last 7 months
-tips reporting insurgent activity
-number of dead insurgents

.... I don't see how a person could shit all over that news. Not unless they were rooting for my buddies and I to fail.

And most importantly, the local government in Iraq is being stood up. We actually have a functioning government in Fallujah, who is making some significant strides with the aid of the USMarines. FALLUJAH! Can you believe it? When I was last there, it was a disaster. The entire city, along with near by Ramadi, were full blown war zones. And that's totally changed. I cannot describe how proud I am of my fellow Army and Marines. It's amazing how one man (Gen P) could give such a huge morale boost.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 20):
and you noted that its too far-fetched to think we're gonna win the war

No, I don't think it's "far-fetched" I think it's going to be up to the Iraqi government.

We're finally doing our part, and making it secure. Now it's going to be on them to start making improvements. I don't know if they can do it. And neither do you. Because they've never been given the appropriate security and stability to do their jobs.

I think it's going to take time, but sorry, I am not willing to write this war off as a failure.

-UH60
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:20 pm

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 24):

Damn..nice pic! We should have a "guess whats shes thinking" thread Big grin

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 24):
well APEC is now OPEC or the Iraq summit and the Australian forces are now Austrian, all this and he hasn't even been here 3 days.

OPEC..er...APEC only officially begins tomorrow (Saturday) right?
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:21 pm

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 4):
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2):
Which does more damage, Falcon? President Bush's comment, or the Democrats bitching about how Iraq is a failure?

Democrats .. whoops i ment to say Socialists have invested in Americas defeat for their own personal gain. They care not for this country or for you and I. Together with the Drive-by-media they continue day in and day out to stab at this great nation and the leaders that keep it safe from harms way. Its sad to see what will happen if these fools get in office. Many 9/11's to come.
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:28 pm

Quoting Toast (Reply 23):
How would you define "winning" in Iraq?

The key question. I have no doubts as to how much "ass" is being "kicked" in Iraq, but I'm unconvinced that life for regular Iraqis is getting significantly better as a result of the "surge." The infrastructure is still decimated, there's a shortage of doctors and other social services, there's still a growing diaspora in Jordan and Syria, and there's still no reason to believe this isn't about oil and military bases.

Today in the Washington Post:

"Reductions in violence form the centerpiece of the Bush administration's claim that its war strategy is working. In congressional testimony Monday, Army Gen. David H. Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, is expected to cite a 75 percent decrease in sectarian attacks. According to senior U.S. military officials in Baghdad, overall attacks in Iraq were down to 960 a week in August, compared with 1,700 a week in June, and civilian casualties had fallen 17 percent between December 2006 and last month. Unofficial Iraqi figures show a similar decrease.

Others who have looked at the full range of U.S. government statistics on violence, however, accuse the military of cherry-picking positive indicators and caution that the numbers -- most of which are classified -- are often confusing and contradictory. "Let's just say that there are several different sources within the administration on violence, and those sources do not agree," Comptroller General David Walker told Congress on Tuesday in releasing a new Government Accountability Office report on Iraq.

Senior U.S. officers in Baghdad disputed the accuracy and conclusions of the largely negative GAO report, which they said had adopted a flawed counting methodology used by the CIA and the Defense Intelligence Agency. Many of those conclusions were also reflected in last month's pessimistic National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq.

The intelligence community has its own problems with military calculations. Intelligence analysts computing aggregate levels of violence against civilians for the NIE puzzled over how the military designated attacks as combat, sectarian or criminal, according to one senior intelligence official in Washington. "If a bullet went through the back of the head, it's sectarian," the official said. "If it went through the front, it's criminal.""


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2007/09/05/AR2007090502466_pf.html

Tuesday, from McClatchy's Washington Bureau:

"The surge of additional U.S. troops in Iraq has failed to curtail violence against Iraqi civilians, an independent government agency reported Tuesday.

Citing data from the Pentagon and other U.S. agencies, the Government Accountability Office found that daily attacks against civilians in Iraq have remained "about the same" since February, when the United States began sending nearly 30,000 additional troops to improve security in Iraq.

The GAO also found that the number of Iraqis fleeing violence in their neighborhoods is increasing, with as many as 100,000 Iraqis a month leaving their homes in search of safety."


http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/19448.html

That's not to say that I don't place value on what folks like UH60 who are actually there are saying, but I'm seeing plenty of news that contradicts what I'm hearing from an administration that I've been given every possible reason not to believe in the last four years.

And while I agree that Bush could probably stand to restrain his language (considering the number of times it has come back to bite him in the ass), I'm not sure this thread is going anywhere productive.
 
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:34 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 25):
Good results?

When it comes to security, every measurable indicator showed a reduction.

interesting how you measure success, less bombings but more civilian deaths in August than at any other time...wouldn't be that the bombs are getting more sophisticated and able to do more damage which means less are being built and detonated? such a marvellous way you measure success, tell that to the 1700+ civilians that died in the month of August, the deadliest month for civilians yet, ohh...it is about the safety of the Iraqi civilians that we're concerned about, right?  Yeah sure
 
Toast
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:37 pm

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 28):
The infrastructure is still decimated, there's a shortage of doctors and other social services, there's still a growing diaspora in Jordan and Syria

That is one of the reasons I think that Iraq as a country is over. I work a lot with refugees and there is a significant surge in the number of Iraqis arriving in Belgium and Luxembourg. They are all well-educated, well-to-do doctors, lawyers, architects. With a country deprived of its best citizens, with heavily damaged infrastructure, hundreds of thousands of people dead, torn by religious strife fueled by neighboring KSA and Iran, jostling for control over the oil fields, occupied by foreign armies, Iraq is unlikely to ever rise from its ashes.
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LAXspotter
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:37 pm

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 28):
The key question. I have no doubts as to how much "ass" is being "kicked" in Iraq, but I'm unconvinced that life for regular Iraqis is getting significantly better as a result of the "surge." The infrastructure is still decimated, there's a shortage of doctors and other social services, there's still a growing diaspora in Jordan and Syria, and there's still no reason to believe this isn't about oil and military bases

Exactly, I have a feeling what we're doing is at the interests of us, and we dont really give a damn about how the average Iraqi will be doing, so bombing the hell out of the infrastructure and insurgents blowing stuff up, is really a shitty situation. Iraq wont be a success until people are able to live in a country free of crazy violence, and live in a society free of fear.
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LAXspotter
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:39 pm

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 29):
1700+ civilians that died in the month of August, the deadliest month for civilians yet, ohh...it is about the safety of the Iraqi civilians that we're concerned about, right?

Welcome to my RU, thankyou for pointing out the obvious, I knew I saw that headline earlier, thanks for pointing it out.
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Toast
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:46 pm

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 28):
I'm not sure this thread is going anywhere productive.

Since when are internet forums meant to be productive?  Smile We all know we're here just to let off some steam Big grin
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skywatch
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:46 pm

Quoting Toast (Reply 14):
If I was honest enough to admit I was fighting the wrong people in the wrong country under a bullshit pretext, no amount of cheerleading from my superiors or feigned defeatism from the "enemy" would make me able to look at myself in a mirror.

And what gave you that opinion? The media or firsthand experience in the matter? I marvel at people who think they know more than the leaders who are calling the shots. They have more inside intelligence than you and I can fathom! Whether or not I agree with the war is inconsequential.....I can't form a well-based opinion about it unless I go there and see for myself! Until then, it's nothing but tainted speculation.

As for Bush's comment, why not encourage some troops? If you were risking your life everyday wouldn't you honestly want a little encouragement? Even if I knew it wasn't true, I'd still appreciate it! As for the possible offensive word...he isn't the first President to let one fly every now and then.....Johnson's Cabinet practically had their ears singed everyday.... Until people stop wearing their "F Bush" shirts, I don't think they have a right to complain.

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 12):
Thanks for the voice of truth, UH60.

 checkmark 

---Skywatch
------Forever Watchin' The Sky------
 
gunsontheroof
Posts: 3226
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:46 pm

Quoting Toast (Reply 32):
With a country deprived of its best citizens, with heavily damaged infrastructure, hundreds of thousands of people dead, torn by religious strife fueled by neighboring KSA and Iran, jostling for control over the oil fields, occupied by foreign armies, Iraq is unlikely to ever rise from its ashes.

Exactly. The Iraqi "Brain Drain" is going to have the exact same effects on reconstruction efforts in the wake of this fiasco that de-Baathification had in the wake of the invasion: the people who know what the hell they're doing aren't going to be around to do it.

An anonymous Iraqi academic in March 2006:

"Under the American and British occupation, Iraqi academics are being forced out of their jobs and their country under the veil of politics. This is especially true for female Iraqi academics, who once made up nearly half of Iraqi academics in higher institutions and now fear for their lives and the lives of their families. In and outside the workplace they are being targeted by extremists and by the occupiers - more than 200 prominent Iraqi academics have been assassinated in the past three years alone. Those who are not assassinated are abducted or forced out of the country. Iraq is suffering from a huge brain drain that will not be compensated for another 20 years. This is a dramatic loss for the country and, without Iraq's educated middle class, we will be sure to see a rise in sectarianism and extremism, which is what the occupier wants."

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0310-25.htm

I would stress that in this case, "the occupier" is likely viewed as the Bush Administration whose continued involvement in Iraq is dependent on chaos, not the boots on the ground.
 
QANTAS077
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:47 pm

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 33):
Welcome to my RU, thankyou for pointing out the obvious, I knew I saw that headline earlier, thanks for pointing it out.

the civilian population seems to be the one that's forgotten about...its all well and good to say that there are less bombings in one month, but what the fuck does that mean to 1700 others who died for nothing? I don't care how it affects the military because that's their job, they choose a life in the armed services and they know full well that it could result in death. The civilian population has zero option but to accept what's happening around them in the name of "freedom & democracy".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFTNeHRZZEs
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:52 pm

Quoting Skywatch (Reply 35):
And what gave you that opinion? The media or firsthand experience in the matter? I marvel at people who think they know more than the leaders who are calling the shots. They have more inside intelligence than you and I can fathom! Whether or not I agree with the war is inconsequential.....I can't form a well-based opinion about it unless I go there and see for myself! Until then, it's nothing but tainted speculation.

There's no doubt that the leaders "calling the shots" know more than we do. That doesn't mean they're telling you the truth. I don't feel like I should have to elaborate on that. As for "firsthand experience," it's certainly important to take into account, but individuals like UH60 aren't everywhere in Iraq. There's way more going on than one person can see. McCain and company's visit to a "peaceful Baghdad market" a ways back (surrounded by dozens of troops and helicopters) and their subsequent "I've been there, it's improving" bullshit is a pretty good example of this.
 
LAXspotter
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:53 pm

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 36):
don't care how it affects the military because that's their job, they choose a life in the armed services and they know full well that it could result in death. The civilian population has zero option but to accept what's happening around them in the name of "freedom & democracy".

well said, but as you mentioned most people dont really care about the poor citizens of Iraq who just want to be left alone. When the USA leaves Iraq, it will break out into a all out war and eventually part of Iraq will become part of Iran as a stronger shiite country, and the rest of Iraq will be a sunni stronghold which might have ties to Al Qaeda in the future. Sad this is, the Iraqi's coudl have solved it by themselves, but we just had to go in there by stating that Saddam was tied to Bin laden.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
flanker
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:56 pm

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 31):
Iraq wont be a success until people are able to live in a country free of crazy violence, and live in a society free of fear.

Silly statement. No society is free of fear and or "crazy violence" .
Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
 
QANTAS077
Posts: 5171
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:58 pm

Quoting Flanker (Reply 39):
Silly statement. No society is free of fear and or "crazy violence" .

need look no further than the country that bought more fear and crazy violence to the Iraqi people in 2003.
 
Toast
Posts: 1249
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:59 pm

Quoting Flanker (Reply 39):
No society is free of fear and or "crazy violence"

I'm sorry to hear you've never had the occasion to see or live in such a society. I live in one of those, I can assure you peace and security are taken for granted here.
Shit Piss Fuck Cunt Cocksucker Motherfucker Tits
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:01 pm

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 29):
ohh...it is about the safety of the Iraqi civilians that we're concerned about, right?

Well considering that we... including myself... have consistently put our lives in danger to protect the lives of threatened Iraqi civilians, then yes, it is very much about the innocent Iraqi civilians.

You think you're real cute, sitting back and sniping at the situation in Iraq, and mocking our intentions. But there is a lot of heroic soldiers who's name is now on a gravestone because they died protecting innocent Iraqis. So you really don't know jack.

You're terribly quick to stomp on the US troops, but I don't see you showing the same pissy attitude towards the insurgents who are actively targeting innocent lives.

When was the last time you saw an insurgent place his helicopter (or vehicle in their case) between the fire fight and wounded civilians, in order to evac them?

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 28):
That's not to say that I don't place value on what folks like UH60 who are actually there are saying, but I'm seeing plenty of news that contradicts what I'm hearing from an administration that I've been given every possible reason not to believe in the last four years.

I don't want to paint this rosy image, that everything on the security front is going swimmingly well for US troops. That's the last thing I want to do.

When I was there from Jan 06 - Apr 07, everything was a mess. Every step we took forward, was counted by two steps backward. It was demoralizing and disheartening. And I was only back there for 45 days, but I saw a lot of improvement. I saw people on streets, that were killing zones when I was last there. With the security, I saw our public works projects actually surviving! (Previously, we'd build the Iraqis some sort of public facility or infrastructure, and it would more than likely be destroyed in a few weeks) but this is changing.

There are still IEDs... and they're getting deadlier.

There are still snipers... and they too, are getting deadlier and more elusive.

There are still major issues to tackle. It's by NO means, the next hot vacation spot in the middle east! But the progress made in just a few months time is very impressive. Like I said - I am extremely proud in my fellow Army and Marine soldiers. They're doing a fantastic job bringing the fight to the enemy.

I just don't understand how people can shit on good news. I'd expect them to be HAPPY that there is less violence. It's ridiculous that people would see this news and say, "Oh that's good news, but they didn't complete x, y and z." Well christ... it's only been a few months. I'm glad you all think us soldiers are supermen, who can move the moon to the earth... but give us a break. Good news is good news, and ought to be received as such.

-UH60

[Edited 2007-09-07 08:01:42]
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
gunsontheroof
Posts: 3226
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:06 pm

Quoting Flanker (Reply 39):
Silly statement. No society is free of fear and or "crazy violence" .

No, Iraq has apparently suffered enough of it to become the second "most failed state" in the world. They deserve better.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articl...4_RTRUKOC_0_US-IRAQ-USA-STATES.xml

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 38):
When the USA leaves Iraq, it will break out into a all out war and eventually part of Iraq will become part of Iran as a stronger shiite country, and the rest of Iraq will be a sunni stronghold which might have ties to Al Qaeda in the future.

Saddam Hussein thought the exact same thing about Arab Khuzestan--where most of Iran's oil is--during the Iran-Iraq War. So too did Khomeini believe that Shiite Iraqis would rise up and topple their Sunni leader. Neither happened, people overwhelmingly sided with their own countries during the war despite ethnic/religious ties across the border. Iraq, no matter how much the U.S. doesn't want it to be, is always going to be tied closely to Iran if there's ever a real democracy there. It's a fact of life. However, the idea that Iranian influence is going to become so strong that parts of Iraq are annexed to Iran is a bit unbelievable to me. There's simply no historical reason to believe that's going to happen. For that matter, there's no reason to believe things would get worse if the U.S. left when it's simply undeniable that things have gotten worse from the moment the U.S. military entered the country.

As far as "all out war" is concerned...just what would you call it now?

[Edited 2007-09-07 08:07:30]
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:06 pm

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 36):
The civilian population has zero option but to accept what's happening around them in the name of "freedom & democracy".

Hiya Monte . . . .haven't seen you for a bit my friend. . .

So, to topic . . .

How well did the same civilian population fare under Saddam?

Yeah, yeah, I know . . . I hate it, really when civilians pay the ultimate price in any conflict. I'd be less of a man not to, but I have to ask . . . just how many yet to be unearthed mass graves will we find?

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 37):
As for "firsthand experience," it's certainly important to take into account, but individuals like UH60 aren't everywhere in Iraq.

There are more of them than you realize . . . to bad they don't all post here. I can introduce you to a Captain in the Texas National Guard that did his time, twice, who I respect wholly, who I refer to as my son, and I hear his accounts as I hear UH60s . . .

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 37):
McCain and company's visit to a "peaceful Baghdad market

. . . . was a bullshit political move . . .

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 40):
need look no further than the country that bought more fear and crazy violence to the Iraqi people in 2003.

Hmmmm, I think you're missing to boat.

Monte, do you know WHY we never heard about the fear and the crazy violence pre-1993?

Because Saddam and his boys didn't let it out . . . a small bit of research on your part will tell you that. A small bit of research will reveal just what bastards Saddam and his sons were . . . .

You can't possibly believe that everything in Iraq was peaches and cream pre-1993 . . . you're smarter than that . . . I hope.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
skywatch
Posts: 851
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:07 pm

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 37):
There's way more going on than one person can see. McCain and company's visit to a "peaceful Baghdad market" a ways back (surrounded by dozens of troops and helicopters) and their subsequent "I've been there, it's improving" bullshit is a pretty good example of this.

Which is precisely why I have accepted the fact that I just won't ever know for sure, and neither will anyone else, including Sadaam, Bush, and every general there ever was. Everyone has their own take on things....one person sees progress, another digression. Pretty obvious.....

In other words, "why continue on in endless circular debates when, in the end, your opinions are still the same?"

The answer being: No one wants to be wrong, therefore we argue. Simple enough! (wait...are we supposed to be talking about Iraq or philosophy and logic?) Big grin
------Forever Watchin' The Sky------
 
gunsontheroof
Posts: 3226
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:16 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 44):
How well did the same civilian population fare under Saddam?

According to a poll at the beginning of the year, 90% of Iraqis said "better."

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/14282

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 44):

There are more of them than you realize . . . to bad they don't all post here. I can introduce you to a Captain in the Texas National Guard that did his time, twice, who I respect wholly, who I refer to as my son, and I hear his accounts as I hear UH60s . . .

And I've heard/read others make similar assessments. At the same time, I keep reading accounts from Iraqi civilians, journalists and others on the ground there that don't paint a similar picture. At best, I'm uncertain about how much better or worse things are in Iraq today. It's especially difficult given everything that's already happened and the massively complicated rebuilding process that lays ahead if relative stability is achieved.
 
Toast
Posts: 1249
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:17 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 44):
just how many yet to be unearthed mass graves will we find?

Just out of curiosity, have any been found since the US invaded?

However I count, there seems no way Saddam could have killed nearly as many people as this war has already.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 44):
A small bit of research will reveal just what bastards Saddam and his sons were . . . .

Nobody in his right mind doubts that.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 44):
You can't possibly believe that everything in Iraq was peaches and cream pre-1993 . . .

Compared to what? I for one would certainly rather live under Saddam than under Khomeini or the Sauds...

And does the fact Iraq was a poor and dictatorial country justify its invasion and turning it into a destroyed, depopulated anarchy?
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skywatch
Posts: 851
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:25 pm

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 46):
journalists

Key word..."journalist".....never trust 'em!  Big grin Most journalism is either far left or far right. Take your pick or don't believe a word of it...that's unfortunately what it has boiled down to. And that's no new deal. Look at journalism from the Spanish-American War..... Yellow journalism practically started US involvement in that war.
------Forever Watchin' The Sky------
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
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RE: President Bush Goes Cowboy Again Over Iraq

Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:26 pm

Quoting Toast (Reply 47):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 44):
just how many yet to be unearthed mass graves will we find?


Just out of curiosity, have any been found since the US invaded?

Apparently, my friend, you need to so dome research too . . . .

I won't spare you the agony of doing it yourself . . . but the answer is yes . . . many of them . . .

Quoting Toast (Reply 47):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 44):
A small bit of research will reveal just what bastards Saddam and his sons were . . . .

Nobody in his right mind doubts that.

I would agree with you, but you need to wade back through a couple of these type threads right here on this site to see people exclaiming that very thing . . . really . . .

Baffling isn't it.

Quoting Toast (Reply 47):
I for one would certainly rather live under Saddam than under Khomeini or the Sauds...

Opinion noted. Not sure I'd pick either of the three . . . Saddam or his sons were screwballs . . . the Iranians, well... who knows. The Sauds . . . anyone thinks they are our friends has been hitting the peyote too hard. Lose, Lose, Lose all the way around.
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