Falcon84
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MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:56 am

Straight political ads are fine, but this one:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/09/10/petraeus.moveon/index.html steps way over a line. Attacking a very honorable, decorated and fine officer like the General is just not right. He serves this nation honorably, and should be treated honorably.

They don't deserve any support on this idiocy.
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Mir
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:08 am

The ad, running in Monday's edition of the New York Times, shows a picture of Petraeus. Bold letters spell out "General Petraeus or General Betray us?"

Except for one homophobic t-shirt I saw today, that might well be the most childish thing I've heard in a while.

The money spent on that ad could have been put to much better use.

-Mir

[Edited 2007-09-10 22:21:08]
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:16 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):

Thank you very much Falcon.

I really disturbs me that some people opposed to the war, are willing to sink to the level of debasing Gen Petreus. While I've never met the man personally, I have served under his command. And I've also served under many commanders who know him personally. I have never heard of a general spoken so highly of. Indeed, he is very well liked amongst the troops.

He really does not deserve activists and politicians attacking him, simply because they're unable to formulate intelligent counter-arguments. It's very pathetic.  yuck 

-UH60
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deltagator
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:18 am

From the CNN article...

"Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid expressed frustration Monday with the ad. When asked early Monday if this was the right message for his party to send, the Nevada Democrat curtly answered, "No."

One of the first instances of not talking like a buffoon in well, I don't know when but it's a start for him. Might the Dems be taking a stand against MoveOn as a fringe element of their party?


"Every major independent study and many major news organizations cast serious doubt on Petraeus' claims," Eli Pariser, executive director of MoveOn.org Political Action Committee, said in a statement."

Wow! When did major news organizations become experts in military planning? I must have missed that memo.
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allstarflyer
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:19 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Attacking a very honorable, decorated and fine officer like the General is just not right. He serves this nation honorably, and should be treated honorably.

They don't deserve any support on this idiocy.

I agree with UH60; I'm glad you posted this. I just heard about this in the office, then went to MoveOn.org (and got sidetracked by something else). Other than trying to get some headlines for MoveOn, I don't see how this rhetoric has any positive impact on how we should view the Congressional proceedings with the general.
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ltbewr
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:21 am

MoveOn may have reached too far and turned off may who may have supported them in the past by insulting General Petreaus by playing his last name as 'Betrayus'. That is an obscene attack on a Military Officer and should be rejected by all politicans (as many Democrats are).
Yes, one may question his (and the Ambassadors') testimony and how they determined it as they may have a limited view, but then again, they have access to a lot of info we, the public cannot know as may disclosure military and diplomatic procedures and actions. Let us hope that from this, as one lawmaker asked, what the Congress/Senate can do to help or pressure the Iraqi government to do what has to be done so we (the US Military) can leave.
 
Tom in NO
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:25 am

Here's the thing, and this crosses party lines.....whether or not we support the war is one thing. But since we are there fighting a war, I'm damn sure gonna support our troops, and those leading those troops, Patreus included.

Agree with Mir.....that was money poorly spent.

Tom at MSY
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davestanKSAN
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:33 am

Good post my friend Falcon, I agree. Definetly crosses the line.

Dave
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yowza
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:01 am

While I have been against the war from day one there is no way I can be anything but disgusted at this. This type of childishness and bickering are not at all productive. To even hint that somebody who has served in their country's military for so long is a traitor is pathetic.

YOWza

[Edited 2007-09-11 00:02:19]
 
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Tugger
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:22 am

It may have outlived its usefulness. Wasn't MoveOn started to counter the Republican attacks against John Kerry? I believe the Republicans even attacked McCain during the last election cycle, I think it was something about his time as a POW. Crazy.

I don't think either side is clean. I don't appreciate attacks on people who unlike most of us have served their country. It can be argued why and how (Bush?) they served but not that they did, and that in itself is a good thing for our country.

Tug
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n229nw
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:54 am

I agree that this is a poor tactic (personal attack in general, and it is inexcusable that it implies he is treasonous), and I wish this ad was framed differently. But I'm not sure about "further" into disrepute. MoveOn is an organization that has, overall, been very good at applying pressure in productive ways. I think they are important to have around. During the election, they were particularly relevant and principled. It's true, I think they have gone in a bad direction recently, and I don't like some of the decisions they have made about which battles to fight, but most of their ads have been well-designed (until now) and avoided far-left pitfalls, and I certainly don't see them--or myself--as lunatic fringe. Sometimes you have to stand up for what is right and not just engage in cynical politics or lazy acceptance of white house spin. This ad calls attention to the problems surrounding official statistics and spin in Iraq. If it were less childish and petulant, it could have been good...

[Edited 2007-09-11 00:56:33]
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MDorBust
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:17 am

Quoting Tugger (Reply 9):
Wasn't MoveOn started to counter the Republican attacks against John Kerry?

Nope. Moveon.org originated during the Clinton impeachment.

This is the same group that gave us the GWB/Hitler add.

It's a haven for the most extreme of the left to congregate and pretend to be a political action group. This isn't the first absolutely asinine thing to come out of moveon.org, nor will it be the last.
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sw733
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:24 am

Yeah this one is pretty crappy. I don't care if you're for or against the war - I happen to be against it for the most part - but to attack the soldiers, other than the ones who committed crimes, is ridiculous (I agree with Tom in NO and YOWza 100% in what he said...obviously). I'd like to see the MoveOn.org folks go to Iraq...or hell, fly over Iraq at altitudes under 10,000 feet. Yeah, right...

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 3):
Might the Dems be taking a stand against MoveOn as a fringe element of their party?

To me, MoveOn is a far left organization. In recent years, you've seen many Republicans distance themselves from the far right extremes, while the Dems have not really distanced themselves from the far left too much...this may be the start of it.

I sense this could be the beginning of a long road for MoveOn, and I'll be right there to pat them on the back at the end...with a spikey paddle.



EDIT: On second thought, this may not be the end for them. MoveOn attracts the farther left of the spectrum. Those on the farther left probably think Patraeus is an idiot anyways, without any fact or proof behind it, simply because he's in charge of a war they don't like. MoveOn could probably not give a flying cow what the right things...or even what the middle thinks...or hell, even what the near left thinks. They care what the far left thinks, and the far left hates Iraq, hates Bush, and probably hates the General.

[Edited 2007-09-11 02:34:31]
 
Queso
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:33 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
They don't deserve any support on this idiocy.

I agree, Falcon. Thank you for posting.
 
N1120A
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:36 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
He serves this nation honorably, and should be treated honorably.

Based on the statements he made recently, I would say the ad was spot on when talking about cooking the books. Given that he has been heavily influenced by the White House and that the independent GAO has reported numbers opposite to what he has said, criticism is due.

Just because one serves in uniform, it doesn't make them immune to criticism.
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:52 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
Based on the statements he made recently, I would say the ad was spot on when talking about cooking the books. Given that he has been heavily influenced by the White House and that the independent GAO has reported numbers opposite to what he has said, criticism is due.

Prove it.

Just because in recent days the White House has been saying many of the same things General Petraues said today... doesn't mean they wrote the report! There was a face-to-face meet the day before the White House started echoing his comments. Of course they're on the same page. You would no doubt be attacking them, if they weren't.  Yeah sure

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
Just because one serves in uniform, it doesn't make them immune to criticism.

You're right... but I would expect you, of all people, to understand that there ought to be evidence of your accusations, in order for them to stick!! Don't be one of those people who resorts to venemous attacks, based on political anger.

And you're clearly oblivious to the man and his record. And his experiences leading the 101st, in Iraq. Just because you don't like what he has to say, doesn't mean he's conspiring with the White House to mislead the American people! And such an outrageous claim only makes you look desperate.

-UH60
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Mir
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:21 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
Based on the statements he made recently, I would say the ad was spot on when talking about cooking the books. Given that he has been heavily influenced by the White House and that the independent GAO has reported numbers opposite to what he has said, criticism is due.

That may be. But there's a difference between honest criticism and the hateful childish kind in this ad. Had MoveOn run an ad saying "Is Patraeus the newest Bush spokesman?" we wouldn't be having this discussion. There is nothing honest or productive about a play on someone's name, especially when used to suggest that they are betraying their country. It wasn't right when some right wingers did with Obama/Osama, and it isn't right now.

Want to question the accuracy of his report? More power to you. But at least do it in a civilized and adult manner.

-Mir
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sw733
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:22 am

Now, very few of us on this website (or this planet, for that matter) have been to Iraq and seen what's going on first hand. Yet many people on this website are quick to say Iraq is failing or Iraq is on the right road, without having any proof beyond what their chosen media outlet, be it CNN or Fox News or other, has told them (each with their own agendas). You wouldn't trust someone to build your house if they had never done it before, would you? UH60 has been to Iraq, and while one persons testimony cannot prove or disprove much, he is, never the less, one of the few who has seen what is going on in its real light.

UH60 - I am not saying I am agreeing or disagreeing with you on anything Iraq related, I am simply saying I think you have a better clue of what is REALLY going on there than any of us posting here.
 
deltagator
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:25 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
Based on the statements he made recently, I would say the ad was spot on when talking about cooking the books.

So now you have positioned yourself as a military force expert here on A.net? What next out of you? How is it you haven't won Jeopardy with all your expert knowledge in everything?  sarcastic 

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
Given that he has been heavily influenced by the White House...criticism is due.

Source? Proof?

Oh wait...conjecture on the part of the A.net Law Scholar in Residence.  sarcastic 

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
the independent GAO has reported numbers opposite to what he has said

Since when did the GAO become an expert in military force projections and their ability to get, or not get, the job done? You're grasping at straws here Counselor.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
Just because one serves in uniform, it doesn't make them immune to criticism.

No it doesn't but it is obvious what your agenda is here. You need to have some sources and evidence that the books are cooked and that the General is in cahoots with the White House. Until then you sound like a tinfoil hat wearing parrot of the folks over at MoveOn.org.
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:36 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 3):
Wow! When did major news organizations become experts in military planning? I must have missed that memo.

Hell, I don't even trust 'major news orginizations' to deliver accurate, unbiased news and they're branching out into military planning!?! I think I'm going to go hide in a cave somewhere.
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sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:47 am

C'mon now. I think everybody knows Bush lied about Iraq for 4 1/2 years, and now Petraeus is lying for him. Hes using fuzzy math to nake it appear the troop escalation is working, when its not.

The USA cant police Iraq and solve their civil war, only they can do that. Lets get out and let them do it themselves, with out losing more American blood.

When will we admit Iraq is lost? How many more US soldiers have to die before we all admit we never should have went into Iraq and we should leave?

Nine soldiers died today alone, on today September 10th.

This has to end.

The military use to stay neutral and its sad to see 4 star generals cheerleading for Bush and this failed opccupation.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:47 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
that might well be the most childish thing I've heard in a while.

 checkmark 

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2):
Thank you very much Falcon.

Ditto

Spot on Falcon . . . .

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 3):
"Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid expressed frustration Monday with the ad.

Harry Reid likely "approved this message". He's a coward, a quitter, a disgrace . . . .

Quoting YOWza (Reply 8):
To even hint that somebody who has served in their country's military for so long is a traitor is pathetic.

I quite agree . . . . seems to me, I recall some saying the same of Powell . . . . unfortunate.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
Based on the statements he made recently, I would say the ad was spot on when talking about cooking the books.

Based I'm sure, my friend, on your unending experience in a combat zone, leading troops in a firefight, ducking and covering for incoming, and covering your crews ass when they're dismounted.

Look, Alireza, I like you man, a lot, but you've jumped the shark here . . . .

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
Just because one serves in uniform, it doesn't make them immune to criticism.

To be certain. And the General is NOT a traitor. Period. End of frackin paragraph.

Rather surprised at you, really. Disgusted even. I'll live of course.
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L-188
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:01 am

Falcon, I am going to have to give you some points on this one.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 11):
Nope. Moveon.org originated during the Clinton impeachment

Yup, and then George Soros gave them a whole lot of money in an attempt to buy the 2000 election.
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NIKV69
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:08 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 22):
Harry Reid likely "approved this message". He's a coward, a quitter, a disgrace . . . .

Yes he is. I will continue to give my salute every time I drive through Searchlight. A disgrace to the state of NV.

As for moveon.org and codepink they just showed us how low they have sunk today.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:08 am

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 21):
C'mon now. I think everybody knows Bush lied about Iraq for 4 1/2 years,

Horseshit. Prove it. What you need to do, n00b, is go read a few dozen threads here and see how badly this "theory" of yours has been buttstroked over the last 2-3-4 years. Then, talk the talk . . .

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 21):
and now Petraeus is lying for him.

More horseshit.


Pathetic . . .

Quoting L-188 (Reply 23):
Falcon, I am going to have to give you some points on this one.

Yup . . . my friend in CLE ocasionally has spike koolaide, but he's spot on today
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Tugger
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:25 pm

I read this this weekend:
In his 1998 book, George H.W. Bush forecast problems if Iraq was invaded, writing: “We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. Had we gone the invasion route, the U.S. could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different – and perhaps barren – outcome.”

The original president Bush had it right.

Some here may also recognise the following:

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
-- Theodore Roosevelt

I suggest that the same is true with the military. It is honorable and a worthy duty for a person to take on but it does not make that person better than another. Or deserving of more praise or less deserving of critical review. Without the civilian support, from the mercenary contractors that are assisting in Iraq, to the civilians who grow the food they eat, to the civilians who make the bullets and bullet-proof vests for them, the military could not function without the myriad civilians "safely" at home doing their mundane work for the nation. We all contribute.

The military serves the needs of the public and is subject to the will of the people. We the people have the right and the duty to challenge what the military does and tells us. No one is truly beyond reproach, and it is not divisive that the organizations that rule and defend this nation are under direct control of and questioned by its citizens. This is why this is the greatest most powerful nation this world has ever known.

And for people here to suggest that only the military based reports can have accuracy is silly and uninformed. The military does have an agenda, they have their orders and I will point out that General Petraeus' superior is the President. He will follow his orders if directed to do so. It is why the military works, without a strong command structure everything in war fails. The objective of war is to win, to defeat the opponent. And I am not saying or suggesting that he is lying or being misleading. What I am saying is that his report does not deserve any less of a critical, careful, and thorough review and comparison against other reports just because he is a General.

Unfortunately we are stuck all the "wings" trying to present particular points of view and are sometimes left with a disparate muddle and trying to ascertain which is the best, most correct, least skewed, most accurate. While the general's assessment may be a good and very valid one, it is good and proper to compare it against other reports and assessments. From all the information together we get a better and more accurate picture.

Dumping on one side without examining the flaws of ones own side leads to nothing productive. You need to actually look within and know that you are not doing or encouraging the same thing you are accusing others of doing. So while I don't agree with those besmirching a good and honorable man who has done nothing to deserve such vitriol, I believe that we also need to be honest with ourselves why such actions are occurring.

I will leave you with another very well known ancient saying to share with those posting here:

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Tug

[Edited 2007-09-11 07:45:49]
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:28 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 26):
It is honorable and a worthy duty for a person to take on but it does not make that person better than another. Or deserving of more praise or less deserving of critical review. Without the civilian support, from the mercenary contractors that are assisting in Iraq, to the civilians who grow the food they eat, to the civilians who make the bullets and bullet-proof vests for them, the military could not function without the myriad civilians "safely" at home doing their mundane work for the nation. We all contribute.

You're absolutely right... his report should spark debate in America. People should examine the evidence he presents to Congress.

...but to attack the man's character? General Betray-us? How does that advance the debate?

There is still plenty to debate, but when people perform character assassination, because they want to silence what that person is saying, is wrong.

What MoveOn.org is doing, is no different than what their arch enemy Ann Coulter did to the widows of the 9/11 victims. Their accusations are unsupported by evidence, and it smacks of immaturity, and venomous hatred.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
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fxramper
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:44 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Attacking a very honorable, decorated and fine officer like the General

I agree with you sir. I watched most of the hearins today. Way uncalled for for MoveOn; CNN was even reporting it as out of line to slander the General that way...


Regards.
 
miamiair
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:40 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):

 redflag 

Your reasoning has left the building with this one.

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 21):
This has to end.

And it will, when the job is done properly. And as for the military, they are there 24/7. The top brass didn't quit and take their ball and go home after Clinton slashed the Armed Forces to give us the problem we face today.

I do not like GWB, but he is the President and I respect the office, and the thankless job he does. To see the CIC come to your sand box to visit, and in the past share a Thansgiving meal inspires some sort of loyalty, and it works up and it works down. If the brass wants to be GWB's cheerleaders, I don't have a problem with it, they are entitled to their opinions and views. Where does it say the military has to be mute?

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 21):

Quit your sniveling.
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Falcon84
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:26 pm

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 21):

1. We do not know if Bush lied. We know the intel was horribly innacurate. I did not agree wtih going to war in Iraq, but I've always maintained that there's no concrete proof Bush lied.

2. I don't sense any perception from Petraus. I think he's giving his level-best assessment of the situation, and while I do not trust Mr. Bush, I certainly think we have to go with the guy on the ground in Iraq, who firsthand has studied this situation. Unlike other military/civilian leaders we've had in Iraq, I sense this man is doing his best to be as honest with the American people as he can. He knows the American people are tired of the bullshit, and I think he's trying to cut through this.

The next few months are crucial, and I believe the surge should be allowed to continue, and see if it can have even further positive effects on the situation.
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CALTECH
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:48 pm

Quoting Queso (Reply 13):
Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
They don't deserve any support on this idiocy.

I agree, Falcon. Thank you for posting.

Ah, I second that, I agree with you Falcon84.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 29):
The next few months are crucial, and I believe the surge should be allowed to continue, and see if it can have even further positive effects on the situation.

Ah, I agree with you on this also. Wow 2 agrees in one post.
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N1120A
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:09 am

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 28):

Your reasoning has left the building with this one.

How so?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):

Based I'm sure, my friend, on your unending experience in a combat zone, leading troops in a firefight, ducking and covering for incoming, and covering your crews ass when they're dismounted.

What he has or has not done in battle is irrelevant here. He may be a damn fine soldier, but he can still be told what to say.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):

To be certain. And the General is NOT a traitor. Period. End of frackin paragraph.

I don't necessary think he is a traitor, I bet he truly thinks what he is doing is right.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 18):

So now you have positioned yourself as a military force expert here on A.net?

Not at all.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 18):

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
Given that he has been heavily influenced by the White House...criticism is due.

Source? Proof?

He reports to the White House and is mentioned at every chance the White House gets. That suggests influence.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 18):

Since when did the GAO become an expert in military force projections and their ability to get, or not get, the job done? You're grasping at straws here Counselor.

Not at all. The GAO was set up to monitor government projects to make sure they are not wasting American resources. This is exactly what they do.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 15):

Prove it.

Prove he is telling the truth and that the GAO is wrong

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 15):

And you're clearly oblivious to the man and his record. And his experiences leading the 101st, in Iraq. Just because you don't like what he has to say, doesn't mean he's conspiring with the White House to mislead the American people! And such an outrageous claim only makes you look desperate.

It has nothing to do with not liking what he has to say, rather that what he says goes completely against what the most politically independent agency in the US government has to say.

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):

Want to question the accuracy of his report? More power to you. But at least do it in a civilized and adult manner.

What exactly is civilized and adult about political propaganda? Organizations like MoveOn and the NRA exist to cater to the whim of their members, which means making incendiary statements. This is no different than someone making a political joke.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:19 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 15):

Prove it.

Prove he is telling the truth and that the GAO is wrong

On the surface, I'd rather trust a military man than some bureaucrat, even if the bureaucrat is all about accountability, and this is doubly so since it's the military man who's in the mix while the GAO is a spectator along with the rest of us.
Living the American Dream
 
N1120A
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:22 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 32):

On the surface, I'd rather trust a military man than some bureaucrat, even if the bureaucrat is all about accountability, and this is doubly so since it's the military man who's in the mix while the GAO is a spectator along with the rest of us.

Some bureaucrat? The GAO's function is to prevent government waste and evaluate programs, including military campaigns, for their efficiency. A military man's job is to do what his commander tells him.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:32 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 33):
The GAO's function is to prevent government waste

If that's their primary function, then the GAO itself is an obvious waste.
Living the American Dream
 
N1120A
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:37 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 34):

If that's their primary function, then the GAO itself is an obvious waste.

Excuse me? When you have what is essentially the largest corporation in the world that has the dual function of governing a population of 300 million, there had better be an arm set up to trace accountability.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:43 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
Prove he is telling the truth and that the GAO is wrong

I already did.
UH60 Sees Progress In Iraq (by UH60FtRucker Aug 29 2007 in Non Aviation)

I saw first hand, the facts that he reported to congress.

So, Alireza... prove he's lying.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
It has nothing to do with not liking what he has to say, rather that what he says goes completely against what the most politically independent agency in the US government has to say.

And what did the GAO say Iraq's biggest failures were?

Politics.

The government is still failing to produce. However, that is not the mission of General Petreaus. His mission was to improve the security, and stability, of Iraq. And the troops, under his command, are doing that.

General Petreaus is accomplishing what he was tasked with doing - making Iraq safer. Ambassador Crocker, on the other hand, is still unable to report that the Iraqi government is making progress.

You're pissed at the wrong guy.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
N1120A
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:54 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 36):

You're pissed at the wrong guy.

Not at all. I am pissed off at him for being the mouthpiece of his bosses. The White House has claimed for months that it would be writing the report that they are attributing to the General, all while Bush calls it the General's report. Which one is it?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/07/20070712-5.html

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 36):

I already did.

And I don't believe you. Absolutely nothing personal, but I know you have gotten in trouble before for things posted from Iraq and I don't believe that you would ever be allowed to post anything more than peaches and cream.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 36):

General Petreaus is accomplishing what he was tasked with doing - making Iraq safer.

The only thing that has become safer is the situation for US troops, which is definitely a good thing but has nothing to do with Iraq itself. US troops would be plenty safe if they were here at home too. Attacks on civilians have not decreased and Iraq's own security forces, the ones who should be tasked with this job, have not improved.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
gunsontheroof
Posts: 3226
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:15 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 35):
When you have what is essentially the largest corporation in the world that has the dual function of governing a population of 300 million, there had better be an arm set up to trace accountability.

Or else, weird things start happening...like $9 billion going missing in Iraq...

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/09/12/1410243

This message not brought to you by George Soros.
 
davestanKSAN
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:26 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 37):
And I don't believe you.

What does UH have politically to gain in lying to us all here? If he was limited by OPSEC, wouldn't he refrain from posting at all? It's not like he's the spokesperson for the Army, nor would he be payed to spread false information on the internet. It just wouldn't make sense for him to lie me thinks.

Dave
Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:42 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 37):
And I don't believe you. Absolutely nothing personal, but I know you have gotten in trouble before for things posted from Iraq and I don't believe that you would ever be allowed to post anything more than peaches and cream.

lol... so now I'm lying too? Anyone else you want to lump into your vast conspiracy theory?

But of course... you have your facts wrong.

I once had a company commander who didn't want his soldiers - including me - to post on online forums. For over a month, I adhered to his rules, and didn't post. But he moved on to another unit and my new commander's rules were more lax.

The military, as a whole, has had moderate success cracking down on specific blogs. Some soldiers were ordered to stop blogging, while others weren't. It all depended on which authors the military could easily identify.

....But the reoccurring theme is the military is closing down blogs. Certainly not making soldiers post lies! lol... I mean really, that's such a ridiculous claim for you to make!!!

Quoting N1120A (Reply 37):
Attacks on civilians have not decreased and Iraq's own security forces, the ones who should be tasked with this job, have not improved.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g52/UH60PilotIraq/Random%201/p3.jpg

...They're not the lowest they've been, and they are still unacceptably high by any civilized standard, but the surge is helping to bring the level down. Unfortunately, what's happening is since the insurgents are being denied the opportunity to conduct their attacks on the same frequency, they are switching their tactics to include deadlier bombs.

Their bombs are literally becoming more deadly. So less attacks, but at same time - very deadly attacks. Part of this can be explained by the added expertise of Iranians. They've helped designed shape charges, larger charges, etc...

If you look at the chart, you'll see two spikes (one in May and one in July) those were results of two large car bombs that killed a large number of innocent Iraqis.

But one of the benefits of the surge, is the ability to be more flexible. With more troops, we're able to cover more ground, put more pressure on the insurgency, and also achieve faster response times to reports of violence.

...but of course... that's all made up! The real truth is, attacks are up, millions of soldiers and civilians are dying, Kennedy isn't dead, Aliens run the government... and the military is forcing me to lie!

Alireza, have you ever met Blackbird???


-UH60

[Edited 2007-09-13 02:53:59]
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:54 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 35):
Excuse me?

Huh? Say what? Control yourself.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 35):
When you have what is essentially the largest corporation in the world that has the dual function of governing a population of 300 million, there had better be an arm set up to trace accountability.

Sounds like you trust them implicitly.  sarcastic 

Quoting N1120A (Reply 37):
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 36):

I already did.

And I don't believe you.

 thumbsdown  Again, 1st-hand reports usually, and in this case, definitely, carry greater weight.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 37):
Attacks on civilians have not decreased

Dead wrong, and here is why. This report is dedicated to this very issue. Contrary to what Rep. Wexler (D-Fla.) says, that even though the first 6 months of '07 were the worst for any 1st 6-month period of a calendar year, it was still an improvement over the last 6 months of '06, and that graph from the 1st link shows that there's been marked improvement since early this year until now.
Living the American Dream
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:56 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 37):
The White House has claimed for months that it would be writing the report that they are attributing to the General, all while Bush calls it the General's report. Which one is it?

There are two reports due out. One has already been released, that is the one that General Patraeus and Ambassador Crocker presented to Congress. The next one is due in a week and is larger in scope. The General and the Ambassador gave input into the second report but the first one, the one they presented this week is all their own.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
the independent GAO

Independent? It's an arm of Congress.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
gunsontheroof
Posts: 3226
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:02 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 40):


Your observations are dully noted. What about Iraqis?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3571504

"Barely a quarter of Iraqis say their security has improved in the past six months, a negative assessment of the surge in U.S. forces that reflects worsening public attitudes across a range of measures, even as authorities report some progress curtailing violence.

Apart from a few scattered gains, a new national survey by ABC News, the BBC and the Japanese broadcaster NHK finds deepening dissatisfaction with conditions in Iraq, lower ratings for the national government and growing rejection of the U.S. role there."


Let's not forget that the vast majority of the people in that country want the U.S. out now. In an alleged democracy, that should count for something.

I've got other things to say about this, but I'll save it for the more relevant thread.
 
MDorBust
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:06 am

Two things.

1) Iraqis saying they think security isn't better doesn't mean security isn't better. I know tons of old people living in upper scale neighborhoods who have fortified their houses with all sorts of security systems because they think crime is a problem... while living in the lowest crime rate areas of town.

2) How do you get to walk around conducting surveys of the Iraqi populace if they don't think it's safe enough to come out and talk to you?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
gunsontheroof
Posts: 3226
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:13 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 44):
1) Iraqis saying they think security isn't better doesn't mean security isn't better. I know tons of old people living in upper scale neighborhoods who have fortified their houses with all sorts of security systems because they think crime is a problem... while living in the lowest crime rate areas of town.

So when it comes to the quality of life in Iraq, you're more interested in what Dave Patraeus has to say than what 2,222 Iraqis have to say?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 44):
2) How do you get to walk around conducting surveys of the Iraqi populace if they don't think it's safe enough to come out and talk to you?

Who said it was safe? Just about everything worth reading out of Iraq comes from unembedded journalists who are running the risk of getting killed every day.

It runs counter to the official line, therefore, it is bullshit.
 
MDorBust
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:25 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 45):
So when it comes to the quality of life in Iraq, you're more interested in what Dave Patraeus has to say than what 2,222 Iraqis have to say?

Nope. Just saying that impressions are not always reality and by extension the perceieved level of safety is not the same as the statistical level of safety. Both people can be 100% right. The Iraqis might not feel safe (perception), yet there may be fewer attacks (fact).

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 45):
Just about everything worth reading out of Iraq comes from unembedded journalists who are running the risk of getting killed every day.

The journalists can run around Iraq all day risking their lives if they want. If the Iraqis don't feel safe enough to talk to them they won't.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:28 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 43):
Let's not forget that the vast majority of the people in that country want the U.S. out now. In an alleged democracy, that should count for something.

I think a lot of people (including some people here on Anet!) are getting very defensive over this report. It's almost like they view the damn thing as some kind of threat to their argument!!

Look... nothing that was reported from General Petreaus indicates that "victory" is right around the corner! Both the general and the ambassador said that the Iraqi government, and national leadership, have a LONG way to go. We all know that to get the Iraqi government running smoothly will take an huge effort. Hell, it just may prove to be impossible. I don't know, I am not an expert in that field.

So why are people getting so upset over this report? All he's saying is that our troops are having greater success, preventing the insurgents from conducting acts of violence. What is so threatening about that? Should we not be HAPPY over this news?

We're having some honest success making it more secure and safe. Fact.

The government is still a disaster. Fact.

So someone tell me why people are willing to commit character assassination on General Petreaus? Why are they so threatened by the news that our troops are doing their mission (and that's all it is... we still have so many other things to achieve in order to succeed)? And how is this any different than what Ann Coulter did to the 9/11 widows - attack the integrity of someone you don't agree with????

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:32 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 45):

So when it comes to the quality of life in Iraq, you're more interested in what Dave Patraeus has to say than what 2,222 Iraqis have to say?

But he didn't report on the quality of life.

And honestly, I don't think that the mission of the US military ought to be to build the nation. Our mission is, and ought to be, the security of Iraq. And we're doing that!

When it comes to creating a successful government, that is beyond the charter of the military, and we ought to be asking hard questions to both the State Department and the administration, "Why does Iraq's government still flounder?"

But really... all General Petreaus is saying is that we're making it safer. He's not saying Iraq, overall, is glowing success. So why are people attacking him? By all means, attack the administration for the fact that the overall picture remains grim... but don't attack this guy because you don't LIKE what he has to say.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
deltagator
Posts: 6170
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:56 am

RE: MoveOn.org Slides Further Into Disrepute

Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:52 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 18):

So now you have positioned yourself as a military force expert here on A.net?

Not at all.

You claim that the general is cooking the books based on a MoveOn.org ad and you've never served a day of your life in any combat situation but yet you just know he's lying.

Hmm...I wonder what the other educated people out there will take as a better source?

Alireza the Wonder Persian Lawyer With Knowledge of All vs. a seasoned military general with experience in the Suck?

I know which one I've chosen.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
He reports to the White House and is mentioned at every chance the White House gets. That suggests influence.

The White House mentions him because he is getting stuff done. Technically he may report with a dotted line to the WH but any military man can telll you that a general who plays politics finds himself to be a retired general pretty quickly. To imply that he would let the WH influence his report in a way that might get his soldiers killed is an insult to him, the soldiers, and the intelligence of everyone on this board.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
The GAO was set up to monitor government projects to make sure they are not wasting American resources. This is exactly what they do.

And for them to say Iraq is a success or not is not something they are capable of doing unless they have accountant/military experts on staff. If they want to determine we are wasting money on $500 toilet seats in the Pentagon that is one thing but to have any say in whether or not troop levels are working is not in their ballpark.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 33):
The GAO's function is to prevent government waste and evaluate programs, including military campaigns, for their efficiency.

And given the continuous stories of government waste and inefficiency that we hear about they seem to be doing a pretty crappy job of helping fix the issue.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."

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