Falcon84
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Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:00 pm

Yes, Mahmoud Iwantajihad is at it again, saying Israel cannot exist:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/09/12/ahmadinejad.itn/index.html

This guy is a menace to the Middle East region, and to the world in general. Anyone buy his claim he wants peace for everyone? If you do, I can sell you a bridge in Brooklyn.

And I'm just waiting breathlessly for those who always come on here and say this nut doesn't want to destroy Israel. Again, he's made it clear that that is precisely what he wants.
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Springbok747
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:12 pm

He keeps saying this shit all the time. Whats different this time? Let him say all the crap he wants..no one's listening.
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gunsontheroof
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:17 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Mahmoud Iwantajihad

Lame.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
This guy is a menace to the Middle East region, and to the world in general.

He doesn't dictate Iranian foreign policy. What makes you think so?

The guy's a nut, but he doesn't pull the strings that matter. Let's not forget the wiping Israel "off the map" comment was a gross mistranslation that referred specifically to the Zionist government in Jerusalem--not the state of Israel--and for that matter, a quote of Ayatollah Khomeini.

But yeah, we're bombing them. Can't wait.
 
Mir
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:29 pm

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 2):
Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Mahmoud Iwantajihad

Lame.

 checkmark  Just about as childish as the General Patraeus/Betray-us thing earlier this week.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
And I'm just waiting breathlessly for those who always come on here and say this nut doesn't want to destroy Israel. Again, he's made it clear that that is precisely what he wants.

While we're on the subject of childish, I think he just has delusions of grandeur and wants to be in the headlines all the time ("look at me, I'm important!!"). He knows what would happen to him were he to attack Israel, and it wouldn't be just the US going after him. He still shouldn't be allowed to get a nuclear weapon, but I get the feeling that if he were really up to something nasty, he'd be playing his cards a little closer to the vest.

-Mir
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AC773
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:32 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
This guy is a menace to the Middle East region, and to the world in general.

He has limited power within his own government and his people are largely against him. The threat you seem to think he poses is greatly exaggerated.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
And I'm just waiting breathlessly for those who always come on here and say this nut doesn't want to destroy Israel. Again, he's made it clear that that is precisely what he wants.

I want Bush out of office, but I can't do much about it.
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Toast
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:32 pm

Ahmadinejad is a puppet.

"Death to Israel" has been a mantra since 1979 and no normal citizen over there (99.99999% of Iranians) pays any attention to that old bullshit.

His rhetoric is aimed exclusively at domestic consumption, and even in Iran his ratings are low.

For Iran to attack Israel or the US would take an extremely stupid leader. Call Ahmadinejad whatever you want, but he's not stupid and neither are the ayatollahs.
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huskyaviation
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:37 pm

Quoting Toast (Reply 5):
His rhetoric is aimed exclusively at domestic consumption, and even in Iran his ratings are low.

His rhetoric is aimed directly at Hamas and Hezbollah who Iran has supported in their struggle to destroy Israel since their creation.
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:37 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
He knows what would happen to him were he to attack Israel, and it wouldn't be just the US going after him.

Yep. Those Israeli nukes aren't just for show. I'm going to cry laughing hysterically if someone comes into this thread claiming that Iran has nukes and Israel doesn't.

And again, Ahmadinejad can't declare war or mobilize the armed forces. Only Khamenei can do that, and while he's said some pretty nasty things about Israel, he also condemned the 9/11 attacks and refused to attend the Holocaust denier's conference. I don't see him pulling the trigger on any conflict with Israel.

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
He still shouldn't be allowed to get a nuclear weapon, but I get the feeling that if he were really up to something nasty, he'd be playing his cards a little closer to the vest.

I don't think anyone has any business with nuclear weapons, but Bush/Cheney practically told Iran to develop one when they invaded Iraq.

Get ready for a lot more news like this--with the Bush Administration claiming that Iran is supporting groups it has traditionally been enemies with (Sunnis in Iraq, Taliban forces in Afghanistan), you can't feel good about where things are going.
 
Osprey88
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:47 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 1):
He keeps saying this shit all the time. Whats different this time? Let him say all the crap he wants..no one's listening.

Given his pursuit of nuclear weapons, I think we should at least give him some thought...
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LTU932
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:53 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

And yet what did Iran do about Israel: Nothing. Why? Because he knows that he'll have the entire IDF and the Americans (maybe even the Germans) on his ass, and Mahmoud knows that he will lose such a war, especially if the Americans are involved.

Bottom line: Mahmoud ain't gonna do anything, because whatever he does, he'll lose, and he knows that. So Israel, while they should be ready for the unthinkable, can relax a bit more, because Iran's threats don't mean anything, and they (Israel) would have military support in case Iran does declare war on them.

[Edited 2007-09-13 05:56:06]
 
Mir
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:54 pm

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 7):
I don't think anyone has any business with nuclear weapons, but Bush/Cheney practically told Iran to develop one when they invaded Iraq.

Indeed. It not only proved that the US was serious about going after the so-called "axis of evil", but also gave Iran the opportunity to get some influence in the region (which would make them harder to attack). Iran would be nuts not to try and take advantage of that opportunity.

-Mir
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huskyaviation
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:59 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 9):
Bottom line: Mahmoud ain't gonna do anything, because whatever he does, he'll lose, and he knows that. So Israel, while they should be ready for the unthinkable, can relax a bit more, because Iran's threats don't mean anything, and they (Israel) would have military support in case Iran does declare war on them.

I don't think Iran would be stupid enough to attack Israel straight up, but it just sends a signal that Iran is going to continue to finance and support an underground guerrilla-like offensive against Israel through their proxies.
 
Toast
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To E

Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:04 pm

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 6):
Hamas and Hezbollah who Iran has supported

Hamas was democratically elected. Israel didn't like it, pulled the plug on funds, so Hamas asked Iran for help.

Syria supports Hezbollah, too.

Israel remains a brutally efficient player in the region and a handful of excited Shiites isn't going to change that anytime soon.

[Edited 2007-09-13 06:06:21]
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huskyaviation
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:05 pm

Quoting Toast (Reply 12):
Hamas was democratically elected. Israel didn't like it, pulled the plug on funds, so Hamas asked Iran for help.

Syria supports Hezbollah, too.

Doesn't matter that they were elected or not--Iran supports their existence, not their government.
 
Osprey88
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:06 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 9):
And yet what did Iran do about Israel: Nothing. Why? Because he knows that he'll have the entire IDF and the Americans (maybe even the Germans) on his ass, and Mahmoud knows that he will lose such a war, especially if the Americans are involved.

Bottom line: Mahmoud ain't gonna do anything, because whatever he does, he'll lose, and he knows that. So Israel, while they should be ready for the unthinkable, can relax a bit more, because Iran's threats don't mean anything, and they (Israel) would have military support in case Iran does declare war on them.

Given his rhetoric we should take a very hard line against him, and we should take his threats very seriously. He can still cause considerable harm to the state of Israel in an indirect manner. I for one am not willing to standby and watch Iran attain nuclear weapons, or even the capability to attain nuclear weapons without constant regulation by the IAEA, or hopefully, another, more competent organization. It would be ever so easy for them to hand off one of these bombs, or even other types of radioactive material, to Hezbollah, a group that would be only to willing to annihilate Israel with one of them.

The man himself does not have to be crazy for his nuclear technology to fall in to the wrong hands.
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Toast
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:09 pm

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 13):
Doesn't matter that they were elected or not

So I guess the sacred values of democracy that Bush touts so much in the region don't count if the people chooses someone the US and Israel don't like?
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Toast
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:12 pm

Quoting Osprey88 (Reply 14):
I for one am not willing to standby

Join the army then.

Quoting Osprey88 (Reply 14):
nuclear technology to fall in to the wrong hands.

Newsflash: nuclear technology has been in the wrong hand for decades.
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bok269
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:18 pm

Israel could take Iran on their own, but regardless they'd have at least US behind them.

What's scary is that in a poll (I heard this second hand, so take it with a grain of salt) 60% of Israelis don't think Israel will survive to see its centennial. Let them be wrong...

Am Yisrael Chai!
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Osprey88
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:19 pm

Quoting Toast (Reply 16):
Newsflash: nuclear technology has been in the wrong hand for decades.

And that means we should not at least try and stop its proliferation into the hands of people with malicious intent?
"Reading departure signs in some big airports reminds me of the places I've been"
 
huskyaviation
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:21 pm

Quoting Toast (Reply 15):
So I guess the sacred values of democracy that Bush touts so much in the region don't count if the people chooses someone the US and Israel don't like?

When one of Hamas' sole causes for being is the destruction of another country (not just the regime, but the nation itself), and Iran economically, spiritually, and militarily supports their cause, that is war by proxy, whether or not they are in government or just a militant organization. You said Ahmadinejad's rhetoric is empty, I am submitting to you otherwise.

Just because they are now elected means their cause is legitimate?
 
Toast
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:39 pm

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 19):
Just because they are now elected means their cause is legitimate?

Do you really think it's a coincidence Hamas won the election? If you were born and had to live and raise your children on a tiny arid piece of land bordered by the sea and surrounded by a ruthless army ready to gun you down if you're in the street after dark, I bet you'd have a totally different view on who's the victim in this story.

As long as the Israelis treat the Palestinians like shit with the tacit approval of the US, there is no chance of peace in the region. Without a viable Palestinian state, no amount of bombing Israel's "enemies" into submission will accomplish anything but even more death and resentment.

Quoting Osprey88 (Reply 18):
And that means we should not at least try and stop its proliferation into the hands of people with malicious intent?

As it is now, the world's largest stockpile of WMDs is in the US and the world's most seriously demented and warmongering leader is Bush. Would you like to be attacked "just in case" to stop Bush from further fucking the world?
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huskyaviation
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:44 pm

Quoting Toast (Reply 20):
Do you really think it's a coincidence Hamas won the election? If you were born and had to live and raise your children on a tiny arid piece of land bordered by the sea and surrounded by a ruthless army ready to gun you down if you're in the street after dark, I bet you'd have a totally different view on who's the victim in this story.

As long as the Israelis treat the Palestinians like shit with the tacit approval of the US, there is no chance of peace in the region. Without a viable Palestinian state, no amount of bombing Israel's "enemies" into submission will accomplish anything but even more death and resentment.

You've gone totally off topic because you have no argument. This thread is about Ahmadinejad calling for Israel's destruction, which you claimed is only for "domestic consumption." It isn't--it's much more than that. This is more about Iran's and Ahmadinejad's open cheerleading of the terrorist organizations that it props up to do the dirty work that it can't do out in the open. Therefore, it's not empty rhetoric and should be taken at least semi-seriously, considering Ahmadinejad is a total nut.
 
Toast
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:10 pm

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 21):
Therefore, it's not empty rhetoric and should be taken at least semi-seriously,

Fine, if you're so paranoid about Iran and its support for Hezbollah (which it should be reminded is a potential threat to Israel and not the US, so it should be none of the US' business), what do you propose? Start killing Iranians before any Iranian can even pose the slightest theoretical threat to the US?

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 21):
This thread is about Ahmadinejad calling for Israel's destruction

Ahmadinejad and every Iranian leader since the revolution. Just because he likes to talk about it doesn't mean Iran's the only country to dream about destroying Israel.

And even that is nothing but a tired slogan in Iran. Iran, contrarily to the US Saudi friends for example, has a large Jewish population which isn't oppressed any more than other Iranians. The majority of the worst jihadists who infest the region come from Saudi Arabia, that nest of vipers Bush calls his second home. Saudi extremism is the elephant in the room - cozying up to the people responsible for most Muslim terrorism, including 9/11, while planning to attack a country moderate by comparison is just idiotic and hypocritical. Start dealing with the Sauds and I'll start believing you really have an interest in peace in the Middle East.
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gunsontheroof
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:59 pm

Quoting Toast (Reply 16):
Newsflash: nuclear technology has been in the wrong hand for decades.

 checkmark 

Take Toast's advice in the other thread and Google up some images from Hiroshima. Read some stories of charred people with no skin wandering about the streets or trying to keep their guts from falling out of their torsos. Then come back and tell me that there's anybody in the world who has any business possessing this shit to wield as a deterrent or threat. No sane person can support the continued existence of these weapons by anybody. They're all "the wrong hands."
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:09 pm

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 17):
Israel could take Iran on their own, but regardless they'd have at least US behind them.

and yet they couldnt destroy Hezbollah, what a shame

Atleast that wast the threat that Olmert made.
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baroque
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To E

Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:25 pm

Quoting Toast (Reply 15):
So I guess the sacred values of democracy that Bush touts so much in the region don't count if the people chooses someone the US and Israel don't like?

It seems not. The failure to engage with Hamas will go down as the second craziest effort of the Bush administration after Iraq.

Quoting Toast (Reply 20):
As it is now, the world's largest stockpile of WMDs is in the US and the world's most seriously demented and warmongering leader is Bush. Would you like to be attacked "just in case" to stop Bush from further fucking the world?

As Tom Lehrer said, are they "half as scared as I".

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 23):
Quoting Toast (Reply 16):
Newsflash: nuclear technology has been in the wrong hand for decades.

checkmark

Take Toast's advice in the other thread and Google up some images from Hiroshima. Read some stories of charred people with no skin wandering about the streets or trying to keep their guts from falling out of their torsos. Then come back and tell me that there's anybody in the world who has any business possessing this shit to wield as a deterrent or threat. No sane person can support the continued existence of these weapons by anybody. They're all "the wrong hands."

 checkmark  Except you need to add that friend Ahmad is well aware of MAD, and he knows full well that any nuclear exchange will end up with Iran wrecked, whatever happens to anyone else. His main worry is that this might happen without any threat from Iran. And there seem to be a few a,netters who would like to confirm this fear.

As someone remarked possibly in a different thread, the "diplomacy" from the US has largely consisted of negotiate or we will bomb you. This does not usually count as negotiating in good faith.  Wow!
 
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:39 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
And I'm just waiting breathlessly for those who always come on here and say this nut doesn't want to destroy Israel. Again, he's made it clear that that is precisely what he wants.

If you believe for one single second that he is planning on actually destroying Israel by nuking it, thereby immediately, completely and irreversably sealing the fate of his own nation, and destroying every and all of the countless efforts Iran has made to gain power and influence in the Middle East, then I've got more than just one of those bridges on sale for you.
 
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:46 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
And I'm just waiting breathlessly for those who always come on here and say this nut doesn't want to destroy Israel. Again, he's made it clear that that is precisely what he wants.

Welcome to the club, Falcon. Most of the replies in this thread reflect the thinking most of the current (younger than you and I) generation that has never been around a world war or the cold war and do not understand the concept of their freedom and way of life being truly threatened.

But for the brave few who serve now and those of their own generation that fully support them, I really wonder about the future of our country if a major armed threat surfaces again in 20-50 years. The common-sense people in the younger generation are quickly becoming outnumbered by those who believe in "peace at any cost", even if that cost is the downfall of their own country because it was not armed and ready for a fight for it's life.

Ahmadinejad is not one to be taken lightly. If the US public was not already so "war fatigued" by the media I think we might deal with him head-on. But unfortunately it will come down to a country that still has some "balls" (Israel, because they still understand threats to their country) to fix the problem. I hope so, anyway.
 
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:58 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
And I'm just waiting breathlessly for those who always come on here and say this nut doesn't want to destroy Israel. Again, he's made it clear that that is precisely what he wants.

The problem is that people don't seem to grasp what kind of power an Iranian president has. One cannot compare his power over his country to that of POTUS, for example, Imanutjob's power is considerably smaller. He does not control the military, for example. The presidency of Iran seems to be the Ayatollah's way of keeping himself secure in the centre. Before the current president, there was Khatami, who was quite progressive, but got too friendly with the west, and was then replaced with a candidate who was the exact opposite. And, it turns out, nobody in Iran likes their president very much at the moment, because he has been utterly unable to fulfill any of his campaign promises. And I'm thinking that the Ayatollah is not to pleased with him either. This gnome is out in the next election, IMO.

Anywho, my point is that what little Mahmoud is saying is not as important as we seem to think. Believe me, he'd be alot louder and more pissed off if government leaders around him were not plotting bomb-strikes and shit, and at the same time, not a bit more dangerous.

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HAWK21M
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:33 pm

Domestic Audience Entertainment.  Smile
regds
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baroque
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:59 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 29):
Domestic Audience Entertainment.

I hope you realise that is an anagram for the DEA - same difference I guess.  Smile  Smile
 
wingnut767
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:56 pm

Quoting Toast (Reply 20):
As long as the Israelis treat the Palestinians like shit with the tacit approval of the US, there is no chance of peace in the region. Without a viable Palestinian state, no amount of bombing Israel's "enemies" into submission will accomplish anything but even more death and resentment

As opposed to how all of the Surrounding countries in the middle east have been treating Israel since 1947.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 24):
Quoting Bok269 (Reply 17):
Israel could take Iran on their own, but regardless they'd have at least US behind them.

and yet they couldnt destroy Hezbollah, what a shame

Atleast that wast the threat that Olmert made

Your muslim (arab) bias continues to show
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huskyaviation
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:42 pm

Quoting Toast (Reply 22):
Fine, if you're so paranoid about Iran and its support for Hezbollah (which it should be reminded is a potential threat to Israel and not the US, so it should be none of the US' business), what do you propose? Start killing Iranians before any Iranian can even pose the slightest theoretical threat to the US?

What do I propose? How about Iran stops exporting terrorism and giving aid and comfort to those who want to kill as many civilian Israelis as possible and literally wipe that nation off the planet? That would be a good start. I never said anything about killing Iranians, did I? Your purely emotional response shows your anti-US and anti-Israeli bias.

I like how you switched the argument from Hamas to Hezbollah because you know Hamas has publicly called for attacking American targets. However, Hezbollah is believed to be responsible for the 1983 Lebanese barracks suicide bombing that killed 241 Americans as well as other suicide bombings that killed French peacekeeping soldiers. That, along with the US effort to broker peace between the Palestinians and Israelis, on which several US presidents have invested a lot of time and political capital, means it is absolutely our business.

Quoting Toast (Reply 22):
Ahmadinejad and every Iranian leader since the revolution. Just because he likes to talk about it doesn't mean Iran's the only country to dream about destroying Israel.

Of course not, but Iran also makes no secret of it and is one of the most powerful countries in the Middle East. So yes, it bears noting when the Iranian President makes statements like that. It's not as if Iran doesn't actually act on those statements; it does.

Quoting Toast (Reply 22):
The majority of the worst jihadists who infest the region come from Saudi Arabia, that nest of vipers Bush calls his second home. Saudi extremism is the elephant in the room - cozying up to the people responsible for most Muslim terrorism, including 9/11, while planning to attack a country moderate by comparison is just idiotic and hypocritical. Start dealing with the Sauds and I'll start believing you really have an interest in peace in the Middle East.

No argument regarding Saudi Arabia; few people would believe that the Saudis don't have blood on their hands in this whole thing. But again, this is about Iran, not Saudi Arabia.

I guess President Carter's personal effort to get Israeli-Egyptian Peace Treaty in place, or the liberation of Kuwait and keeping Israel out of it, or the Israeli-Jordanian Peace Treaty, negotiating the Golan cease fires after the '73 war, being instrumental in the Oslo Accords negotiations, or nearly bringing peace between the Palestinians and Israelis in 2000 before Arafat walked away from it....yeah, the US has never worked at all for Middle East peace.
 
ZakHH
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:08 pm

Quoting Queso (Reply 27):
But for the brave few who serve now and those of their own generation that fully support them, I really wonder about the future of our country if a major armed threat surfaces again in 20-50 years. The common-sense people in the younger generation are quickly becoming outnumbered by those who believe in "peace at any cost", even if that cost is the downfall of their own country because it was not armed and ready for a fight for it's life.

Are you speaking about the brave and sensible people that triggered the so very badly needed Iraq war? That freed Iraqi people and established safety and freedom there, as well as in the whole region by leading a well-planned and fully justified war?

Here is actually another problem caused by the Iraq war (apart from the direct consequences). Personally, I do not take Ahmadinejad lightly at all. Much of what was said here may be true - his limited national influence, the little support in the society etc. Still, there is quite some historic examples of somewhat similar developments in other countries, and none of them turned out really good in the end.

But with their poor diplomacy and Mickey-Mouse-tactics, the US have lost a fair share of international support, that would be well needed now that there may a problem that could be really worth looking at.

Too many people both inside and outside the US have no more trust into the US administration. Feel free to think that is only because of the liberal media, but whining will not help solving the problem. It will be a long way to regain trust. Displaying a "try-and-stop-us" attitude and going for another solo war would probably not be the smartest thing to do.

But then, since when did the current US administration care about actions being smart...
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Toast
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:13 pm

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 32):
yeah, the US has never worked at all for Middle East peace.

Not since Bush got elected. And "working for peace" while being openly and unashamedly pro-Israeli is what has inflamed the region more than anything else.

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 32):
this is about Iran, not Saudi Arabia.

Which means, let's deal with a potential problem and ignore the real one?

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 32):
Hezbollah is believed to be responsible for the 1983 Lebanese barracks suicide bombing

Is believed. 1983.

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 32):
So yes, it bears noting when the Iranian President makes statements like that

I'm glad the US showed more restraint in 1960 when Khrushchov yelled "we will bury you", banging his shoe on the UN pulpit. Those were luckily times when politicians saw the difference between talk and action.

The entire Cold War paranoia, the excesses of McCarthyism and countless wars were based on the false premise that the USSR was going to attack the US given the slightest chance. The people in ex-Soviet countries never would have condoned such an action, and neither will the Iranians today. It's all about chest-banging, muscle-flexing and all those things alpha male assholes do.

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 32):
your anti-US and anti-Israeli bias.

 Yeah sure
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huskyaviation
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:26 pm

Quoting Toast (Reply 34):
And "working for peace" while being openly and unashamedly pro-Israeli is what has inflamed the region more than anything else.

Oh, please. You must have forgotten that the creation of Israel is largely a function of the mess the Europeans made, and was mandated by the UN. The all-wonderful, all-knowing, peace-loving, problem-solving UN. It was Sadat that wanted US involvement in 1978-1979; it was the Palestianians who wanted the US to broker the negotiations during the Clinton administration.

Quoting Toast (Reply 34):
The entire Cold War paranoia, the excesses of McCarthyism and countless wars were based on the false premise that the USSR was going to attack the US given the slightest chance. The people in ex-Soviet countries never would have condoned such an action

I never realized that people in ex-Soviet countries had any say in the matter! Hmmm, the Hungarians in 1956, the Czechs in 1968, the Afghans in 1979, or the Poles that lived under martial law in the 1980s...they clearly had a LOT of influence over Soviet policy.

What "countless wars" do you speak of? Yes, McCarthyism was a dark period in US history, we got over it in about 4 years. Do you not think the USSR thought the same exact thing, that the US would attack it given the chance? Given the enormous disparity in conventional arms, and the USSR's desperation to create a series of communist satellite states, the US and its European allies had a lot more to fear than the USSR ever did.

Quoting Toast (Reply 34):
I'm glad the US showed more restraint in 1960 when Khrushchov yelled "we will bury you", banging his shoe on the UN pulpit. Those were luckily times when politicians saw the difference between talk and action.

Yeah, and then 2 years later we discovered nuclear missiles 90 miles off our shores in Cuba. The talk preceded action.
 
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:27 pm

Quoting Toast (Reply 34):
Not since Bush got elected. And "working for peace" while being openly and unashamedly pro-Israeli is what has inflamed the region more than anything else.

And it always puzzled my why the Oslo accords are called, well the Oslo accords.  biting   sarcastic 
 
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:32 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 36):
And it always puzzled my why the Oslo accords are called, well the Oslo accords.

The Norwegians and notably Holst led the negotiations, and the US pushed Israel into entering the negotiations and supported the outcome.
 
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:37 pm

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 37):
The Norwegians and notably Holst led the negotiations, and the US pushed Israel into entering the negotiations and supported the outcome.

Pity that it did not ensure both parties kept to the agreement.
 
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:41 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 38):
Pity that it did not ensure both parties kept to the agreement.

Yeah, wouldn't want the big, bad, meddling US to get involved.

IIRC, it was Arafat who walked away, not the Israelis.
 
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
This guy is a menace to the Middle East region, and to the world in general. Anyone buy his claim he wants peace

-
no, his is NOT a menace, but a tiresome nuisance. What he wants is irrelevant, as it is NOT he who makes the decisions in Tehran .
-

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
And I'm just waiting breathlessly for those who always come on here and say this nut doesn't want to destroy Israel.

- by his words, he does neither want to destroy Israel himself nor urging anybody to do so. By his words, he want Israel simply to stop existing !  yes   yes   rotfl   rotfl  it just is interesting to see how much resonance he achieves by doing such speeches
-
 
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:09 am

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 39):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 38):
Pity that it did not ensure both parties kept to the agreement.

Yeah, wouldn't want the big, bad, meddling US to get involved.

IIRC, it was Arafat who walked away, not the Israelis.

You might want to check on what the Oslo accords specified in relation to west Bank settlements and what actually happened.
 
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:10 am

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 35):
the creation of Israel is largely a function of the mess the Europeans made, and was mandated by the UN.

No argument there. That must have been the most badly botched attempt at state creating in history.

However, the US has ever since supported Israel in whatever it did - and at did a lot of shameful things - only scolding Israel slightly when its actions became absolutely indefensible. And none of the attempts at bringing peace to the region ever included any plan to deal with the core problem, Jerusalem, in any other way than to leave it as the capital of Israel. No other Western country has embarrassed itself by such one-sided politics toward Israel.

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 35):
It was Sadat that wanted US involvement in 1978-1979

And paid a terrible price for it.

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 35):
it was the Palestianians who wanted the US to broker the negotiations during the Clinton administration.

And saw their hopes go up in smoke as usual. Today, the Palestinians have just about had enough with the half-baked US attempts at peace in the region.

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 35):
2 years later we discovered nuclear missiles 90 miles off our shores in Cuba.

Not surprising given that the US had been aiming missiles at the Soviet countries for years, not 90 miles away from them but at their doorstep. Hardly surprising it made them nervous and try to balance the equation.

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 35):
I never realized that people in ex-Soviet countries had any say in the matter!

Sure, they had nothing to say and wouldn't be able to prevent the USSR from doing anything. But if the US had launched a preventive attack against a Soviet country, thereby killing civilians as it always does, the Americans would have instantly lost every last bit of good will the population had toward them. This is what is going to happen the moment the first US bomb hits Iran. A moderate and globally anti-extremist population would turn against the US. Iranian national pride would override all political divisions and you'd have one of the world's largest and well-armed countries against you.

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 35):
Do you not think the USSR thought the same exact thing, that the US would attack it given the chance?

No, it just ruthlessly used that idea for scaring its people into complacency, the same thing Bush has tried at home. Inventing a common enemy always works.
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:47 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 23):
Take Toast's advice in the other thread and Google up some images from Hiroshima. Read some stories of charred people with no skin wandering about the streets or trying to keep their guts from falling out of their torsos. Then come back and tell me that there's anybody in the world who has any business possessing this shit to wield as a deterrent or threat. No sane person can support the continued existence of these weapons by anybody. They're all "the wrong hands."

Spot on - welcome to my RU list mate. Reminds of a quote - "'tis an ill wind that blows nobody any good"

Quoting Baroque (Reply 25):
And there seem to be a few a,netters who would like to confirm this fear.

It is a worry. More fodder for the playstation generation who have no real concept or value on what they are suggesting should happen. Fools.

Quoting Toast (Reply 34):
Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 32):
yeah, the US has never worked at all for Middle East peace.

Not since Bush got elected. And "working for peace" while being openly and unashamedly pro-Israeli is what has inflamed the region more than anything else.

Sad to say, but this is causing so many problems - it shouldnt, but it is. Sad.
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:35 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 24):

and yet they couldnt destroy Hezbollah, what a shame

They screwed it up, but doesn't mean they couldn't do it.
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:54 am

Quoting Osprey88 (Reply 14):
Given his rhetoric we should take a very hard line against him, and we should take his threats very seriously.

I do not mean to diminish the military threat that Iran may impose, especially on Israel, but all I'm saying is that, given their inaction, we should take what they say with a grain of salt or two. As we say in German: "Drohungen muss man wahr machen, sonst verarscht man sich selber" or "Threats have to be fulfilled, or else you make a fool out of yourself". I guess that saying does fully apply in this case.
 
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:01 am

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 19):
Just because they are now elected means their cause is legitimate?

Um, yes it does, at least in the eyes of their electorate - democracy can be such a bitch, not so ? You might not like it, but nobody's asking you.
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:09 am

The dude who is threatening us controls significant military forces and represents a ruling council of mullahs who would use any weapon they thought necessary to keep power and grow their influence.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 1):
He keeps saying this shit all the time. Whats different this time? Let him say all the crap he wants..no one's listening.

Lots of people are listening. He's working actively to further destabilize Iraq as well as make the rest of his neighbors nervous.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 2):
He doesn't dictate Iranian foreign policy. What makes you think so?

He certainly has influence over their policy. The only people who wield power over him are the ruling mullahs.

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):

Just about as childish as the General Patraeus/Betray-us thing earlier this week.

No...Dave....this dudes a psycho Iranian who is calling for the destruction of nations. General Petreaus is a US Army general and combat veteran. He was hit cheapshot by Moveon......the Iranian president does call for jihad openly.

Not childish as much as accurate.
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:09 am

Quoting Toast (Reply 42):
However, the US has ever since supported Israel in whatever it did - and at did a lot of shameful things - only scolding Israel slightly when its actions became absolutely indefensible. And none of the attempts at bringing peace to the region ever included any plan to deal with the core problem, Jerusalem, in any other way than to leave it as the capital of Israel. No other Western country has embarrassed itself by such one-sided politics toward Israel.

I agree, the US hasn't done enough to restrain Israel when it's gone too far, and it certainly has, like Sabra and Shatila. But I don't agree that the US hasn't made legitimate efforts to be an honest broker among the parties there. Both Carter and Clinton staked a lot of their prestige on bringing peace to that region.

Quoting Toast (Reply 42):
And paid a terrible price for it.

 checkmark  One of the great tragedies.

Quoting Toast (Reply 42):
And saw their hopes go up in smoke as usual. Today, the Palestinians have just about had enough with the half-baked US attempts at peace in the region.

The May 2000 summit between Barak and Arafat was a disaster--for the Palestinians. One of the worst decisions to walk away from that with nothing--the Palestinians could have gotten almost everything they wanted, and then gone back for the rest. One of the principles of negotiation. I'm not really sure how this is the US' fault.

Quoting Toast (Reply 42):
But if the US had launched a preventive attack against a Soviet country, thereby killing civilians as it always does, the Americans would have instantly lost every last bit of good will the population had toward them. This is what is going to happen the moment the first US bomb hits Iran.

Again, I never have advocated that the US strike Iran. I agree with the consequences you mentioned above.

Quoting Toast (Reply 42):
No, it just ruthlessly used that idea for scaring its people into complacency, the same thing Bush has tried at home. Inventing a common enemy always works.

That's going too far. Bush hasn't scared anyone into complacency, and there is a common enemy--Islamic extremists. It would be naive to say that there isn't an actual threat.
 
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RE: Iran's Ahmadinejad: Israel Can't Continue To Exist

Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:18 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):

This guy is crazy !


They should know , the day they attack Israel was their last day ...


I like left Politics , but this guy is getting worse and worse every day ...


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