LHStarAlliance
Topic Author
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Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:26 am

Hi guys !


Imagine Israel wouldn´t be where it is , imagine it being for example in the northern USA , Germany or whatever ...
We wouldn´t have the problems with the Palestinians who are in someway right , they lost a big part of their country!

I know Israel was originally there , but this was hundreds of years ago , IMO this is not applicable , it´s like the Italians would say southern Germany belongs to us because 2000 years ago it was our country ! (this comparison could seem a bit stupid)


maybe the allies should have thought about where putting Israel , where it is now , it´s like a cow with many tigers in a cage !


I know now we can´t change it , but was it an mistake to found Israel where it is , ignoring the "Tigers" ?!


Please don´t understand this wrong ! I just mean that all this problems with Iran and so on wouldn´t exist now ...


so what do you think ??


Konstantin


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LAXspotter
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:28 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
maybe the allies should have thought about where putting Israel , where it is now , it´s like a cow with many tigers in a cage !

Believe it or not, Herzl the founder of Zionism first stated they move to a country in Africa, I believe it was a region near Lake Victoria.


This thread is going to a mudslinging contest in ...... 3 2 1
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rjpieces
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:40 am

If Israel hadn't been created in 1948, Syria or Egypt would have gobbled up Palestine, not the Palestinians.

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
I just mean that all this problems with Iran and so on wouldn´t exist now ...

You are dreaming if you think that the problems we face with Iraq, Syria, Iran, etc would not exist if Israel were not there. As proven this past week when Israel bombed part of Northern Syria, Israel is an asset to American stability and strategic interests in the region.
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JRadier
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:42 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 2):
As proven this past week when Israel bombed part of Northern Syria

and how exactly does that PROVE that it adds to the american stability?
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Klaus
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:43 am

It's not a problem of location, it's a problem of implementation.
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:56 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 1):
Believe it or not, Herzl the founder of Zionism first stated they move to a country in Africa, I believe it was a region near Lake Victoria.

It was Uganda, actually. Herzl was not a very religious Zionist, he was more of a political Zionist. His concern was creating a homeland where Jews would be able to control their own fates rather than be subject to the whims of the Gentile majority, for the safety of the Jews. He didn't much care where that place was to be. However, he failed to realize at that point just how important the idea of returning to the ancestral homeland was to other Zionists.
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:57 am

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 5):
It was Uganda, actually. Herzl was not a very religious Zionist, he was more of a political Zionist. His concern was creating a homeland where Jews would be able to control their own fates rather than be subject to the whims of the Gentile majority, for the safety of the Jews. He didn't much care where that place was to be. However, he failed to realize at that point just how important the idea of returning to the ancestral homeland was to other Zionists.

Well this man seems pretty inteligent , i think they´ld have decided this way if they could have seen how it is now !
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Falcon84
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:00 am

Israel is where it is. Dealing with "what if" solves nothing, and the only ones who have a problem with where Israel is, are the ones who want Israel destroyed.
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mainMAN
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:00 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
maybe the allies should have thought about where putting Israel , where it is now , it´s like a cow with many tigers in a cage !

To all it intents and purposes, it wasn't the Allies who invented Israel. Jews moved there (to the British Mandate of Palestine) throughout the 1920s, 30s and 40s, and declared Israel themselves. Initially they lived very harmoniously with the Palestinian Arabs, and I suppose the Allies weren't in any hurry to stop them forming Israel. They understandably became a very militant bunch.

It's infinitely more complicated than that, but that's my scant understanding anyway.
 
wingnut767
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:03 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 2):
If Israel hadn't been created in 1948, Syria or Egypt would have gobbled up Palestine, not the Palestinians.

Correct. When they destroyed the jews they planned on dividing it up amongst themselves. They are more guilty of the current situation than anyone else

Quoting Klaus (Reply 4):
It's not a problem of location, it's a problem of implementation

I think you are right on.They really blew it.
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yanksn4
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:04 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
We wouldn´t have the problems with the Palestinians who are in someway right , they lost a big part of their country!

except that Palestine was in no way a soverign country at the time.

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
I know Israel was originally there , but this was hundreds of years ago , IMO this is not applicable

unless you already have a good size population of Jews in the area that have been there for hundreds of years despite the Arab majority. To think that Jews were not in the middle east before the Holocaust is ignoring historical facts

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
I know now we can´t change it , but was it an mistake to found Israel where it is , ignoring the "Tigers" ?!

so the arabs are unhappy, big deal. Since when does everything have to be accepted by Arabs / Muslims in order for something to take place.

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
Please don´t understand this wrong ! I just mean that all this problems with Iran and so on wouldn´t exist now ...

you can't say we wouldn't be having the same problems if Israel was never created. Islam (along with other major religions) has had a very violent pasts that still continues to this day. Conflicts between muslims and non-muslims in India, Philippines, Thailand, etc. are in no way related to Israel.
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JGPH1A
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:14 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 6):
Well this man seems pretty inteligent , i think they´ld have decided this way if they could have seen how it is now !

I don't see why. If you look at it dispassionately, Zionism is very similar to the types of religious extremism that are attempting to establish exclusively evangelical Christian enclaves in South Carolian, and which created the Afrikaner wannabe homeland of Verwoerdia in South Africa - people using the excuse of religion as a reason to want to seperate themselves from others. Now in the case of Zionism, they did have the precedent of having had a geographic homeland in the past (2000 years before), but in most other respects, the similarities are there. Rightly or wrongly, Israel exists, by decree of the UN, so there we go - but it would be interesting to imagine what the Middle East would have been like had the holocaust not happened.

- Assuming WW2 didn't happen, the British mandates in the Middle East would most probably have been given independence in the 50's right after India (although India would have been independent earlier if the war hadn't intervened)
- Palestine would have been a province of Jordan, most likely, with a small and vocal religious Jewish minority presence in Jerusalem along with the other religions.
- Would pan-Arabism have taken off in the way it did without the uniting influence of opposition to Israel ? Maybe, maybe not.
- Would Islamic extremism have taken off in the way it did, for similar reasons ? No reason to suppose it would have done, secularism was very strong in the Middle East during the first half of the 20th century.
- Anti-semitism in Western Europe outside of Germany was definitely on its way out in the 30's - it still existed, but was less and less tolerated, in the same way that racism was on the decline. Different story in Eastern Europe, where anti-semitism was deeper seated, it would have taken longer to disappear.
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LAXspotter
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:28 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 2):
If Israel hadn't been created in 1948, Syria or Egypt would have gobbled up Palestine, not the Palestinians.

yes, but Palestinians would not have to be kicked off their property, that is what is the problem today.

Quoting JRadier (Reply 3):
and how exactly does that PROVE that it adds to the american stability?

Jurgen, its American propoganda, dont listen.

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 6):
Well this man seems pretty inteligent , i think they´ld have decided this way if they could have seen how it is now !

I can say with confidence that we would be having the same problems today if Israel was located somewhere else, the fact of the matter is that the presence of Israel and the subjugation of the Palestinian people is the reason why we have terrorism today.

Quoting Yanksn4 (Reply 10):
so the arabs are unhappy, big deal. Since when does everything have to be accepted by Arabs / Muslims in order for something to take place.

Since when did we have to give up one man's land to another to remove our guilt of our inability to prevent the Holocaust?
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
KLMA330
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:46 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 12):
yes, but Palestinians would not have to be kicked off their property, that is what is the problem today.

"their Property"? Right...
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:48 am

Quoting KLMA330 (Reply 13):
"their Property"? Right...

So whose property was it then ? The previous tenants having left the property oh, um, about 2000 years previously...
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Charles79
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:05 am

Konstantin,

I have often asked myself that very question, not as an attempt to be a revisionist historian or out of disagreement with the Zionists having their own land. In an ideal world they could have been located someplace where the neighbors wouldn't be so intent on "destroying" them, but alas history decided to give us a different kind of challenge.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 11):
If you look at it dispassionately, Zionism is very similar to the types of religious extremism that are attempting to establish exclusively evangelical Christian enclaves in South Carolian, and which created the Afrikaner wannabe homeland of Verwoerdia in South Africa - people using the excuse of religion as a reason to want to seperate themselves from others

I think this is where we find the root of the problem, as both Zionists and their neighbors have used extreme religious ideals to support their decisions. Lately, a lot of people seem to forget that extreme ideas are usually the first step of major political unrest, whether you are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Mormon, etc.

I guess all we can (and must) do now is try and make the current situation work, ensuring the safety and well-being of BOTH Israelis and Palestinians (way too often, as a nation, we tend to cater only to the former). Additionally, we should learn from the experience and avoid making the same mistakes again.

Good topic Konstantin, and one that can lead to a lot of deep discussions!

Cheers!

Charles
 
Falcon84
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:27 am

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 15):
Good topic Konstantin, and one that can lead to a lot of deep discussions!

And to what end? Israel is where Israel is? Do what the Arabs have never been able to do-deal with it.
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LAXspotter
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:33 am

Quoting KLMA330 (Reply 13):
"their Property"? Right...

No, I guess I'm wrong because I am gonna go along with that Bullshit evangelical crap, it is Jew's god given right to kill anyone who tries assert their dominance over that region, and it is our Christian duty to make sure that the Jews have our full support in repelling any movement of the Palestinians to have a shot at having their ancestral homes back.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 16):
Do what the Arabs have never been able to do-deal with it.

Huh? Unfortunately the reason why Israel is so damn tense these days because it knows that it is no longer the powerful figure it once used to be, if they were so powerful they would have destroyed Hezbolloah which was Olmert's plan, not what happened. They getting tense because Iran wants to assert their dominance over the region as well, they want to be on the same playing field as Israel and that isnt in the best interest of the US.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
Falcon84
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:42 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 18):
Huh? Unfortunately the reason why Israel is so damn tense these days because it knows that it is no longer the powerful figure it once used to be, if they were so powerful they would have destroyed Hezbolloah which was Olmert's plan, not what happened. They getting tense because Iran wants to assert their dominance over the region as well, they want to be on the same playing field as Israel and that isnt in the best interest of the US.

I'm sure that makes you happy, LAXspotter.

Fact is, Israel can still defend itself; they can still beat any standing army in the region, hands-down. Israel isn't going anywhere, despite you fervent wish that it would vanish.
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LAXspotter
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:45 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 20):
Fact is, Israel can still defend itself; they can still beat any standing army in the region, hands-down. Israel isn't going anywhere, despite you fervent wish that it would vanish

yeah, ofcourse they can defend itself, but I wanna see a war where Israel survives on its own, instead of us helping them financially and militarily. I just want to see a fair fight.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
wingnut767
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:51 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 22):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 20):
Fact is, Israel can still defend itself; they can still beat any standing army in the region, hands-down. Israel isn't going anywhere, despite you fervent wish that it would vanish

yeah, ofcourse they can defend itself, but I wanna see a war where Israel survives on its own, instead of us helping them financially and militarily. I just want to see a fair fight

your muslim bias is showing LAX
6 or 7 Arab armies to one little one is not fair enough to you. besides back then most of there equiptment did not come from America. It was not untill the early 70's that we started to supply them with more. And are they not a soverign nation created by the UN. Why is the UN not protecting Israels rights?
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LAXspotter
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:57 am

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 23):
your muslim bias is showing LAX

oh yes, the fact that I'm born into one religion is really playing a part, damn it I'm a deist.

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 23):
Why is the UN not protecting Israels rights?

When they stop treating Palestinians like second-class citizens, only then.

I'm for a two state solution, but what I see essentially as the denial of Palestinian rights is the reason why I'm an anti-zionist. You choose to listen to suscribe to a different media and different authors, and I have that right as well. I know I wont convince anyone and no one is gonna convince anyone else
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
wingnut767
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:01 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 24):
I'm for a two state solution, but what I see essentially as the denial of Palestinian rights is the reason why I'm an anti-zionist. You choose to listen to suscribe to a different media and different authors, and I have that right as well. I know I wont convince anyone and no one is gonna convince anyone else

They had the chance for a two state solution back in 48. But the Arabs would not stand for it. Who is to blame for that?
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LAXspotter
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:02 am

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 25):
But the Arabs would not stand for it. Who is to blame for that?

well that was almost 60 years ago, oh BTW when the UN did draw up the two lands for the Arabs and the Jews, guess what the Arabs would have to move off their ancestral lands to another designated place, would you have liked to do that, I doubt it.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:16 am

It surprises me every time when when people bring up the "Israel kicked arab asses in ...." issue every time we have a debate, I ask these very people about what happened last summer? Why could Israel not kick some hezbollah ass? If Israel were to ever get into a war with any Arab state the consequences what be very different, a large high tech army means squat in todays world and thankfully Israel knows this unlike many members on this forum.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:31 am

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 31):
Why could Israel not kick some hezbollah ass?

The answer is the same problem that the US military has faced with the Iraq War. The US military excels on the linear battlefield. Tank on tank, plane on plane, army against army.... we can crush any conventional foe. And we did exactly that during the invasion of Iraq. It was the unconventional war that we were thoroughly unprepared to fight.

The same can be said for Israel's past wars verses the last war.

So you are wrong to disagree when people say:

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 31):
"Israel kicked arab asses in ...."

...because they did. And they would do it again, because they are exceedingly deadly in force-against-force engagements. But just like America in Iraq, last year's mini-war with Lebanon was not against a conventional enemy. And cannot be used as an example of the Israeli military being a "shadow of its former self." There is little doubt that Israel could defeat any of their immediate enemies on the battlefield. But they've also been fighting the unconventional war with terrorism for decades, and they know better than some, that sometimes a multi-million dollar tank can be totally useless.

-UH60

[Edited 2007-09-17 01:34:13]
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:35 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 33):
The answer is the same problem that the US military has faced with the Iraq War. The US military excels on the linear battlefield. Tank on tank, plane on plane, army against army.... we can crush any conventional foe. And we did exactly that during the invasion of Iraq. It was the unconventional war that we were thoroughly unprepared to fight.

The same can be said for Israel's past wars verses the last war.

would you look at that, we can agree on something

but here is where I dont agree

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 33):
But just like America in Iraq, last year's mini-war with Lebanon was not against a conventional enemy. And cannot be used as an example of the Israeli military being a "shadow of its former self." There is little doubt that Israel could defeat any of their immediate enemies on the battlefield.

What makes us so certain that the enemies Israel will face in the future are going to fought by conventional means? Maybe Israel needs to prepare for the unconventional enemy that they will surely face in the future.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:40 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 22):
yeah, ofcourse they can defend itself, but I wanna see a war where Israel survives on its own, instead of us helping them financially and militarily. I just want to see a fair fight.

I wonder... what exactly is a 'fair fight"?

Would this mean that whoever Israel fought would also have to go without foreign aid?

Would they have to give up their T-72s? What about SA-6s, 8s, 3s? Or ZSU-23s and 2S6M Tunguskas? How about Korean supplied Scud-C missiles, tipped with chemical warheads?

How about foreign experts who teach them how to effectively link surface-to-air platforms to make a phalanx against Israeli aircraft?

....so basically, would you like to see a "fair fight" on just the side of Israel, or does the rest of the region have to play along?

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:45 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 34):
What makes us so certain that the enemies Israel will face in the future are going to fought by conventional means? Maybe Israel needs to prepare for the unconventional enemy that they will surely face in the future.

But they are already facing that enemy. They have been fighting them for over two decades.

And yes, the next war may not involve tanks against tanks. But needless to say, that missions still needs to be trained for. And Israel is very good at those types of battles. Should a shooting match flare up between Israel and Syria... as almost happened a few weeks ago on the Golan Heights... Israel is undoubtedly the stronger power.

There is no doubt when it comes to their fighting abilities in conventiona fights.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
wingnut767
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:54 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 35):
Would they have to give up their T-72s? What about SA-6s, 8s, 3s? Or ZSU-23s and 2S6M Tunguskas? How about Korean supplied Scud-C missiles, tipped with chemical warheads?

How about foreign experts who teach them how to effectively link surface-to-air platforms to make a phalanx against Israeli aircraft?

....so basically, would you like to see a "fair fight" on just the side of Israel, or does the rest of the region have to play along?

Bingo

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 32):
So what do you listen to my friend? Do you actually go to the scene of the event, I mean that is the only way one can really get unbiased reporting and can formulate their owns thoughts without having the news to give it to

That is were you are wrong. Do not believe that you are getting unbiased reporting from the MSM. They tell you a story that they want you to hear. Not what actually happened

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 26):
Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 25):
But the Arabs would not stand for it. Who is to blame for that?

well that was almost 60 years ago, oh BTW when the UN did draw up the two lands for the Arabs and the Jews, guess what the Arabs would have to move off their ancestral lands to another designated place, would you have liked to do that, I doubt it.

This ancestrial land stuff has to stop. If you are going to get into that then all of the Arabs wil have to go back home. You cannot pick and choose when you are going to decide who gets there Ancestrial lands back. And if you believe that it should go by ancestrial lands then the jews of the region would win hands down. And it was not the Jews that made them move. Many arabs stayed and are still there in Israel. Did they drive them all out? Are there no Israeli Arabs?
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skywatch
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:56 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
Imagine Israel wouldn´t be where it is , imagine it being for example in the northern USA , Germany or whatever ...
We wouldn´t have the problems with the Palestinians who are in someway right , they lost a big part of their country!

Although a novel idea, I don't believe that most Jews would have settled for a "homeland" away from their historical homeland. Besides, after the Holocaust, pro-Jewish sentiments were strong enough to create Israel in its current location. I dare say the only nations that had a problem with that were their "neighboors." Iranian president Ahmadinejad's comments regarding Israel are enough to make me wanna defend it with every spare cent my government can muster.

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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:58 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 14):
So whose property was it then ? The previous tenants having left the property oh, um, about 2000 years previously...

Possession is 9/10ths of the law, especially using English law as a base, so I agree with you.

I think everyone except the Jewish people accept that putting Israel into the Lion's Den was a poorly thought out plan.
I'm of the opinion they didn't need to be given any land in the first place. Rwanda lost 900,000+ Tutsi in a 100 day genocide, but Nobody has given the surviving Tutsi part of another country in Africa to make up for it. The whole thing stinks of 'Robin Hood' mentality "steal from the haves, to give to the have nots". It's still a crime to steal, but somehow it is justified because it helps someone else.
Flown to 126 Airports in 47 Countries on 80 Operators. Visited 56 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:01 am

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 29):
And if you believe that it should go by ancestrial lands then the jews of the region would win hands down.

damn it dude, Jewish ancestral rights extend to about 2000 years, Arab ancestral rights to only about 60 years, when the jews were kicked out 2000 years ago, how many Jews actually returned to their ancestral lands, they only returned in large numbers in the 1870's and more so after the Holocaust. There are Arab's as we speak who can point out where their olive trees stood or where they home was, I doubt any Jew can tell your where his/her tribe stayed 2000 years ago.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
n710ps
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:10 am

The Arab nations war within themselves and always have with or without Isreal in the pictue. When there is no reason to fight they find a reason. It is the nature of the beast. Isreal is where it is and that is the end of it as far as I am concerned really. Whether it was placed where it is (I beleive a logical place) or someplace in Africa, it would make no diffrence. The Arabs fight. That is their way and the answer to everything as far as I am concerned. There is no other religion out there fighting the way they do. Jews do not fight the Jews. The anti Isreal talk will go on for 5 billion more years and it will continue elsewhere when humans populate other parts of the universe if it ever came to that. Isreal and the planet will be long gone and the fight over whos is whos will continue. People need to give it up already. I am pretty low key at work and I hear it constantly amound my colleuges (i think that is the correct spelling) over and over and bite my lip. Accept what is and lets try to be a more peaceful world as far as I am concerned.
There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
 
Klaus
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RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:16 am

Quoting N710PS (Reply 33):
The Arabs fight. That is their way and the answer to everything as far as I am concerned. There is no other religion out there fighting the way they do.

Looking back at a long, long history of intense infighting among the various christian factions actually confirms your claim - christians have been worse!

As for the jews: They have been so much under external persecution pressure that their infighting has been relatively subdued - relative being the operative word.

And as far as we know today, up to and under the the roman occupation of antique Judaea there was "the usual" level of infighting among various jewish factions as well. No real surprise.

People fight. And religious people fight more. Few exceptions apply.

Quoting N710PS (Reply 33):
Jews do not fight the Jews.

Tell that to Jitzhak Rabin.

[Edited 2007-09-17 02:19:03]
 
coleplane
Posts: 171
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:54 pm

RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:18 am

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 15):
I guess all we can (and must) do now is try and make the current situation work, ensuring the safety and well-being of BOTH Israelis and Palestinians (way too often, as a nation, we tend to cater only to the former).

What do think would happen if Israel put down their weapons? What would happen if the US abandoned Israel?

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 26):
What makes us so certain that the enemies Israel will face in the future are going to fought by conventional means? Maybe Israel needs to prepare for the unconventional enemy that they will surely face in the future.

As do we LAXspotter. As do we...
"About a nine on the tension scale there Rupe."
 
LAXspotter
Posts: 3227
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:16 pm

RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:20 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 34):
Looking back at a long, long history of intense infighting among the various christian factions actually confirms your claim - christians have been worse!

As for the jews: They have been so much under external persecution pressure that their infighting has been relatively subdued - relative being the operative word.

People fight. And religious people fight more. Few exceptions apply.

Quoting N710PS (Reply 33):
Jews do not fight the Jews.

Tell that to Jitzhak Rabin.

Thankyou Klaus. Thankyou.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
Emirates773ER
Posts: 1318
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:10 am

RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:33 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 25):
...because they did.

And I am not disagreeing on that, but getting drunk on your past victories to assume success in future ones is a wet dream at best. The enemy had changed dramatically in the past 60 years, armies do not fight in this day and age its infact the insurgents.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
wingnut767
Posts: 762
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:50 am

RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:40 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 32):
Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 29):
And if you believe that it should go by ancestrial lands then the jews of the region would win hands down.

damn it dude, Jewish ancestral rights extend to about 2000 years, Arab ancestral rights to only about 60 years, when the jews were kicked out 2000 years ago, how many Jews actually returned to their ancestral lands, they only returned in large numbers in the 1870's and more so after the Holocaust. There are Arab's as we speak who can point out where their olive trees stood or where they home was, I doubt any Jew can tell your where his/her tribe stayed 2000 years ago.

In the mid-1200's, Mamelukes, originally soldier-slaves of the Arabs based in Egypt, established an empire that in time included the area of Palestine. Arab-speaking Muslims made up most of the population of the area once called Palestine. Beginning in the late 1300's, Jews from Spain and other Mediterranean lands settled in Jerusalem and other parts of the land. The Ottoman Empire defeated the Mamelukes in 1517, and Palestine became part of the Ottoman Empire. The Turkish Sultan invited Jews fleeing the Spanish Catholic inquisition to settle in the Turkish empire, including several cities in Palestine


Most of the Jews who continued to practice their religion fled or were forcibly exiled from Palestine, eventually forming a second Jewish Diaspora. However, Jewish communities continued to exist, primarily in the Galilee, the northernmost part of Palestine. Palestine was governed by the Roman Empire until the fourth century A.D. (300's) and then by the Byzantine Empire. In time, Christianity spread to most of Palestine


No other peoples had ever established a national homeland in "Palestine" since the Jews had done it 2,000 years before. Also it looks like that there has always been someone of Jewish origin in the area. They never totaly left. And most that did leave were forced out or buried there.

And what about the Jewish refugees from 60 years ago. Are they going to get there ancestral homes back in the countries they fled?

During 1940's through 1950's nearly ALL the Jews had to flee from Arab countries to avoid persecution and pogroms. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab countries is estimated to be a million. This number is greater than the number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948, estimated as 343,000 (see Peters' book cited below).





Did you also know that although the fact is little publicized, more than one historian has affirmed at the Arab world's second holiest city, Medina, was one of the allegedly "purely Arab" cities that actually was first settled by Jewish tribes
Yakum purkan min shmaya
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:43 am

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 37):
The enemy had changed dramatically in the past 60 years, armies do not fight in this day and age its infact the insurgents.

Then how do you explain what happened only a few weeks ago on the Heights?

Surely had the situation turned hot, the battle would not have been a fight against an insurgency. It would have been a fight of Israel and Syrian conventional forces clashing together. ...And you don't think Israel still holds the tactical advantage over Syria?

I understand what you're saying about the non-conventional terrorists/insurgents. But Israel still has to train for a conventional war... and I don't think there is much debate of whether they can still win.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
LAXspotter
Posts: 3227
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:16 pm

RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:45 am

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 38):
Did you also know that although the fact is little publicized, more than one historian has affirmed at the Arab world's second holiest city, Medina, was one of the allegedly "purely Arab" cities that actually was first settled by Jewish tribes

believe it or not muhammad was actually invited to Yathrib because of his Arbitration skills and his respect amongst the arab peoples, and please stop posting those long essays, I dont need a history lesson from you, I know that Palestinians never had a nation, but that doesnt lessen their claim to their homes. I am not buding and neither are you, so lets get back to topic and answer LHRstaralliance question, and IMO things would be a lot different if Israel was somewhere else, and in your opinion no it wouldnt.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
Emirates773ER
Posts: 1318
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:10 am

RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:50 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 39):
and I don't think there is much debate of whether they can still win.

The crux of the debate is how you would define a "win", is it a destruction of a countries conventional army or a total defeat of any group within that particular country which is hostile towards the invading army. Israel could win a "conventional war" with any of its neighbouring country, but it is the after math of such a war that will gauge the true success. Much like what the US faced in Vietnam and USSR in Afghanistan.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:40 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 19):
yeah, ofcourse they can defend itself, but I wanna see a war where Israel survives on its own, instead of us helping them financially and militarily. I just want to see a fair fight.

Then take away all the Russian, Chinese and French weapons the Arabs have gotten over the years. Ever think of that? Fact is, war is not about a "fair fight". That's utopian bullshit, LAXspotter. It's about you having better weapons, better soldiers and better intel than the other side, and fuck the other side. Sorry, but that's what war is. "Fair" is your men and woman come home, screw the other guy.

So you're idea of "fair" is 1. bullshit, and 2. you simply want Israel eviscerated militarily, by denying THEM weapons. That's you're idea of "fair".

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 22):
They had the chance for a two state solution back in 48. But the Arabs would not stand for it. Who is to blame for that?

In '48? Hell, try just a few years ago, when Arafat had the opportunity to begin the process of a true Palestinian State. But with Yassir it was "once a terrorist, always a terrorist", and he threw the chance away by calling for an Intifadeh! That was THE DUMBEST move ever made by an Arab leader since Israel was born.

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 24):
If Israel were to ever get into a war with any Arab state the consequences what be very different, a large high tech army means squat in todays world and thankfully Israel knows this unlike many members on this forum.

Problem is, the Arab states also have armies built to fight a conventional war, and Israel, again, would kick Arab ass. Sorry, but they would.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 25):
The answer is the same problem that the US military has faced with the Iraq War. The US military excels on the linear battlefield. Tank on tank, plane on plane, army against army.... we can crush any conventional foe. And we did exactly that during the invasion of Iraq. It was the unconventional war that we were thoroughly unprepared to fight.

The same can be said for Israel's past wars verses the last war.

The point of the thread.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 26):
What makes us so certain that the enemies Israel will face in the future are going to fought by conventional means?

There is no certainty in that. But Israel, in order to survive, surrounded by enemies, has had to adapt over the years, and they'll do so this time. They learned a valuable lesson last year, and they'll be better for it.

Sorry, LAX. You may want Israel to vanish from the face of the earth, but barring a nuclear holocaust, that isn't going to happen.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:52 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 12):
Jurgen, its American propoganda, dont listen.



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 17):
They getting tense because Iran wants to assert their dominance over the region as well, they want to be on the same playing field as Israel and that isnt in the best interest of the US.

You say that it's American propaganda to say that Israel is a strategic ally but then demonstrate it in your next post. Good work.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 12):
the fact of the matter is that the presence of Israel and the subjugation of the Palestinian people is the reason why we have terrorism today.

Haha, are you kidding? Osama Bin Laden and 15 Saudis who have never been to Israel or Palestine flew planes into buildings in the United States because of Israel and it's "subjugation" of the Palestinians? Who feeds you this propaganda?

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 17):
Huh? Unfortunately the reason why Israel is so damn tense these days because it knows that it is no longer the powerful figure it once used to be, if they were so powerful they would have destroyed Hezbolloah which was Olmert's plan, not what happened.

The United States is the most powerful country in the world and we can't destroy an insurgency in Iraq. Your logic doesn't follow...And besides, many would make the argument that Israel did in fact win last summer. Hezbollah is in a much more precarious position and the pressure on them in Lebanon has increased greatly.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 19):
yeah, ofcourse they can defend itself, but I wanna see a war where Israel survives on its own, instead of us helping them financially and militarily. I just want to see a fair fight.

Israel won it's most difficult wars with Czech and French weapons. Again your logic does not follow.

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 20):
6 or 7 Arab armies to one little one is not fair enough to you. besides back then most of there equiptment did not come from America. It was not untill the early 70's that we started to supply them with more. And are they not a soverign nation created by the UN. Why is the UN not protecting Israels rights?

Excellent post.

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 24):
Why could Israel not kick some hezbollah ass?

It's truly amazing. People like yourself and LAX should have hoped that Israel beat Hezbollah, which has done nothing but bring death and destruction to Lebanon and killed more Americans than any other terrorist group excluding Al Qaeda. Instead you and him are clearly happy that Hezbollah was not squashed last summer....It's clear where your sympathies are, with a murderous terrorist group.

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 24):
If Israel were to ever get into a war with any Arab state the consequences what be very different, a large high tech army means squat in todays world and thankfully Israel knows this unlike many members on this forum.

Tell that to Israel when they use high-tech F-16s to bomb Iran, if it comes to that. Or Syria if they act up again.

Quoting Skywatch (Reply 30):
Iranian president Ahmadinejad's comments regarding Israel are enough to make me wanna defend it with every spare cent my government can muster.

I feel the same way. A safe and secure Israel is in our national interest, no doubt about that.

Quoting Coleplane (Reply 35):
What would happen if the US abandoned Israel?

We won't. We have invested far too much in Israel over the years. Forgetting the moral superiority of Israel's cause, we will always support Israel to protect our large and always-increasing investment in Israel as a strategic ally.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 42):
You may want Israel to vanish from the face of the earth, but barring a nuclear holocaust, that isn't going to happen.

And even if it does, there will always be Jews longing for Israel...So short of another Hitler killing the Jews, Israel will live.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
LAXspotter
Posts: 3227
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:16 pm

RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:30 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 43):
Haha, are you kidding? Osama Bin Laden and 15 Saudis who have never been to Israel or Palestine flew planes into buildings in the United States because of Israel and it's "subjugation" of the Palestinians? Who feeds you this propaganda?

hey, next time listen to OBL for his causes of engaging America, then you will understand, no where do he mention its because we're christian, or we're this. Ive been to these countries, I dont think you've ever been to these places so you dont know what these people are thinking when they decide to carry out these attacks.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 43):
United States is the most powerful country in the world and we can't destroy an insurgency in Iraq

History shows time and time again, that powerful countries always have difficulties beating Insurgent, unconvential tactics. What have we achieved in the last four years? We havent been able to even bring Iraq down to state of calm, I want you to go to Al Anbar province or outside of the green zone in Baghdad, just take a little tour, see what we've achieved?

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 43):
It's truly amazing. People like yourself and LAX should have hoped that Israel beat Hezbollah, which has done nothing but bring death and destruction to Lebanon and killed more Americans than any other terrorist group excluding Al Qaeda.

yes, because if were against zionism/israel's policies that makes us supporters of terror. I just pointed out Hezbollah stood up to the might of Israel, and besides how you ever thought about it for a second, that Palestinian children die sleeping in their beds, should be call Israel a terrorist then? they sure do terrorize Palestinian women and children, and supporting Israel with your logic makes you a supporter of Israel's terror, and dont tell me its colaterral damage.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 43):
We won't. We have invested far too much in Israel over the years.

When the middle-east loses its economic importance, and the evangelical lobby in the US loses power, we will cease to support Israel, they will have to fend for themselves.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:34 pm

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 44):
hey, next time listen to OBL for his causes of engaging America, then you will understand, no where do he mention its because we're christian, or we're this. Ive been to these countries, I dont think you've ever been to these places so you dont know what these people are thinking when they decide to carry out these attacks.

When does any American listen to, let alone by, the nonsense OBL says? Do you? Do you buy it? Do you subscribe to it?

And OBL has said he wants us all to convert to Islam. Isn't that a hint he doesn't like our faith.

Where are YOUR loyalties, LAXspotter? With the United States, or with someone like OBL. And I'm not talking about Bush's "If you're not for us, you're against us" crap. But who's side are you really on? You sit here telling us to try and understand OBL. When did that fuck ever try to undestand us?

What I see in your posts is a wish for Israel and its citizens to just die, and for us to try and understand the likes of bin Laden.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 44):
When the middle-east loses its economic importance, and the evangelical lobby in the US loses power, we will cease to support Israel, they will have to fend for themselves.

We supported Israel long before the evangelicals came to power, and we'll support them long after.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
AA777
Posts: 2358
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 7:07 am

RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:37 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 2):
If Israel hadn't been created in 1948, Syria or Egypt would have gobbled up Palestine, not the Palestinians.

I dont know where you came up with that argument from....and even though you are seemingly pulling it out of thin air- let me humor you and say, "ok... maybe Syria or Egypt would have 'gobbled' up Palestine'....the huge difference...is that there wouldnt have been mass expulsions of Palestinians/ Arabs from their lands....

Quoting Yanksn4 (Reply 10):

except that Palestine was in no way a soverign country at the time.

Does that mean its okay for hundreds of thousands of people to be forcibly expelled from their land (which, by the way, they had lived on for hundreds, and many for thounsands of years.)? Britain was in control...but I really dont see how that makes any difference.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 16):

And to what end? Israel is where Israel is? Do what the Arabs have never been able to do-deal with it.

Despite what you may think... not all arabs want to see Israel pushed into the sea. That is such a myth. People wouldnt CARE about Israel one way or the other now if there was actually a FAIR solution. The biggest myth though is that Israel has tried and tried to make 'big' concessions to the Palestinians. And the terrible Arabs have never accepted. This is what we are told in the United States... Israels biggest ally (Surprise!) The fact is that there have never truly been fair options given to the Arabs. But we dont really hear about that. Fox news isnt doing its job lately.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 43):
Haha, are you kidding? Osama Bin Laden and 15 Saudis who have never been to Israel or Palestine flew planes into buildings in the United States because of Israel and it's "subjugation" of the Palestinians? Who feeds you this propaganda?

The Root of all Terrorism...that is aimed against the west... has some roots in the Palestinian situation. Solving it is the key to the almost entire thing. This is exactly what America does not want to admit...because the world sees our ardent support for Israel, which is by definition an Occupier. They dont see that America is doing anything to help the people who are being occupied. Osama has mentioned Palestine in the tapes. It is CERTAINLY a part of what happened on 9/11-- and thats not propaganda...its directly from America's number one enemy.... Palestinians are oppressed and treated with disregard and disdain, are restricted in rights and attacked by the Israeli 'defense' forces on a daily/weekly basis........and you expect no one to get mad about it? Open your eyes.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 43):

I feel the same way. A safe and secure Israel is in our national interest, no doubt about that.

Right, so the United States can continue to be hated for our continued support of a nation that has violated tons of humans rights laws, that oppresses an entire group of people. The whole argument that Israel is a key ally in the Middle East is a flawed argument anyways. That argument gained support during the cold war era. Times have changed. Let Israel be safe and secure... but also let the Palestinians have decent treatment and a fair nation. Let them not be occupied anymore. Let Israel stop building 'security fences' and more settlements deep into the west bank areas.... If the US was actually fair in its dealings with Palestinian... there would be no problem at all.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 43):
Forgetting the moral superiority of Israel's cause

Wow, you have some audacity to use the phrase, "Moral Superiority." Moral Superiority of a state that is in violation of DOZENS of UN Resolutions? Moral Superiority of a state that bulldozes neighborhoods and entire apartment buildings leaving dozens homelss...in the name of catching a 'suspected terrorist'? Moral superiority of a state that was founded by violating a cease-fire agreement in 1948 by smuggling weapons into the area against the cease-fire rules... Moral Superiority of a state that started with operations with groups like the Haganah- its own group of terrorists. Moral superiorty of a state that recieves billions of dollars in aid from the United States...... so that it can exert its influence in the region and raze any Arab area that it pleases with one bomb. Moral superiority of a Nation that sends its fighter jets to break the sound barrier over Beirut just for fun...because they can and because they want to scare the hell out of the people in Lebanon. Moral Superiority of a nation that holds thousands of men uncharged in Jails, and without trial...for crimes......when it turns out the only crime they committed was being Arab. There are very few innocent people in this conflict. There are Arab Terrorists as you love to point out anytime you can........ the difference...the huge difference is that Israels terrorism is state-sponsored....and FAR more damaging in both the physical and psychological sense than Arab terrorism has been. Especially since the 'fence' was built. Israel- its government really- has no moral superiority whatsoever...and the sad part is that you think they are the victims. Go see the Palestinian areas, see the squalor they live in, and tell me who is the victim. Moral Superiority.

-AA777

[Edited 2007-09-17 05:38:56]
 
Yellowstone
Posts: 2821
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:32 am

RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:49 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 43):
We won't. We have invested far too much in Israel over the years. Forgetting the moral superiority of Israel's cause, we will always support Israel to protect our large and always-increasing investment in Israel as a strategic ally.

Agreed. Although sometimes I wish the US would make its support a bit more contingent on Israel maintaining its moral superiority to the degree that we would like.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
LAXspotter
Posts: 3227
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:16 pm

RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:02 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 45):
Where are YOUR loyalties, LAXspotter? With the United States, or with someone like OBL. And I'm not talking about Bush's "If you're not for us, you're against us" crap. But who's side are you really on?

What kind of question is that? I live in the US, I love it here, but that doesnt mean I wont criticize the policies of Israel because that will make a me a anti-semite.

Quoting AA777 (Reply 46):

Thankyou, Thankyou, thankyou, welcome to my RU

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 45):
What I see in your posts is a wish for Israel and its citizens to just die

When the hell did I ever say Israeli's should die, but I am just talking for the Palestinians here, those who have been forsaken for years and years. I am for a two-state solution, but Israel needs to start treating the Palestinians humanely. Many Israeli's dont want A palestinian state or for them to have self-identity, many Palestinians dont have a choice, so a two-state solution will be to the best of their interests.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Should Israel Be Where It Is?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:40 pm

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 44):
hey, next time listen to OBL for his causes of engaging America, then you will understand,

I remember him mentioning the US stationing troops in Saudi Arabia, and a wide host of other issues including Israel. So does listening to Osama bin Laden's rants mean that we should basically do what he says? Maybe we should convert to Islam while we are at it, just to be safe. Or the South Park method, stick our heads in the sand.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 44):
yes, because if were against zionism/israel's policies that makes us supporters of terror. I just pointed out Hezbollah stood up to the might of Israel,

You both seemed to be gloating about Hezbollah not being defeated last summer, whether it was intentional or not. Tell me, would you have been happier if Hezbollah had been totally destroyed?

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 44):
When the middle-east loses its economic importance, and the evangelical lobby in the US loses power, we will cease to support Israel, they will have to fend for themselves.

The Israelis fend for themselves. They die in suicide bombings, they send their young boys off for three years in the Army, they die fighting for the Jewish people. The United States will never, ever abandon Israel. I can assure you of that.

Quoting AA777 (Reply 46):
I dont know where you came up with that argument from....and even though you are seemingly pulling it out of thin air- let me humor you and say, "ok... maybe Syria or Egypt would have 'gobbled' up Palestine'....the huge difference...is that there wouldnt have been mass expulsions of Palestinians/ Arabs from their lands....

You don't know where I am coming up with that argument from? Let's see, when Israel was formed they all sent their armies to fight there. Had the Arab armies won, do you think they would have just returned home?

Quoting AA777 (Reply 46):
Despite what you may think... not all arabs want to see Israel pushed into the sea. That is such a myth.

I'm sure...People like you demonstrate time and time again on these boards that you don't have interest in peace. Your sole interest is in the dismantling of the Jewish state. That is why you reject the 2000 peace plan, it would have left a separate Jewish state.

Quoting AA777 (Reply 46):
If the US was actually fair in its dealings with Palestinian... there would be no problem at all.

Haha, are you joking? It is downright naive to think that the hundreds-of-thousands of enraged Muslims from Berlin to Bali would be normal if the US was fair with the Palestinians.

And besides, Europe is "fair" with the Palestinians and where has that gotten them? Homegrown terrorist attacks are thwarted pretty much on a regular basis there these days...

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 47):
Agreed. Although sometimes I wish the US would make its support a bit more contingent on Israel maintaining its moral superiority to the degree that we would like.

Israel has the moral superiority as far as most Americans are concerned. They make mistakes sometimes, but name me a country that doesn't. Israel has done nothing that in my opinion would make it deserving of decreased American support...They offered Arafat peace in 2000 and got four years of suicide bombing, they pulled out of Gaza in 2005 and have had two straight years of constant rocket attacks.

What exactly do you want the Israelis to do?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"

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