overlander
Posts: 139
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Bloody Sunday - General Sir Mike Jackson

Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:04 pm

I listened to a radio programme yesterday and they were interviewing 'General Sir Mike Jackson'.

He is flogging his book about his experiences on how he is a great man etc etc

Strangely enough they glossed over his responsibility about 'Bloody Sunday'. Apparently soldiers get into a 'rage' in Northern Ireland.

His life seems very ironic.

All the best,

Overlander

PS Can anyone find '1 Para' these days as they have seemed to have dissapeared along with his guilt.
It is better to travel hopefully.............but, always be prepared for the worst!
 
NAV20
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RE: Bloody Sunday - General Sir Mike Jackson

Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:17 pm

Jackson was the Adjutant (sort of 'chief admin officer') of 1 Para. at the time. He was investigated for possible misconduct along with all the other officers and men of the unit.

First Battalion the Parachute Regiment remains in existence but is now part of Special Forces. Only took 20 seconds to google up.  Smile

http://www.army.mod.uk/para/1bn.htm
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
overlander
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RE: Bloody Sunday - General Sir Mike Jackson

Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:37 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 1):
First Battalion the Parachute Regiment remains in existence but is now part of Special Forces. Only took 20 seconds to google up.

Sorry, but 1 Para no longer exists as a regiment.

Thanks for your google advice.

All the best,

Overlander
It is better to travel hopefully.............but, always be prepared for the worst!
 
NAV20
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RE: Bloody Sunday - General Sir Mike Jackson

Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:14 pm

Quoting Overlander (Reply 2):
Sorry, but 1 Para no longer exists as a regiment.

Overlander, it never WAS a regiment - just a battalion of the Parachute Regiment. And it remains so.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
overlander
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RE: Bloody Sunday - General Sir Mike Jackson

Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:15 am

Dear Nav20,

Thanks for the advice, apologies, as my terminology was incorrect.

The point I was trying to make was as opposed to 2nd & 3rd Battalion of the Parachute Regiment, the 1st Battalion seem to be making a quiet exit and do not seem to exist other than as part of Special Forces Support Group.

I would be grateful if you could point me in the direction of their Battalion HQ.

It does me wonder if they are disappearing as a result of their actions on Bloody Sunday and the peace process that so far seems to be successful.

It is a shame that the history of a once a revered name has been besmirched by the actions and in-actions of some evil men in the seventies.

All the best,

Overlander
It is better to travel hopefully.............but, always be prepared for the worst!
 
Banco
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RE: Bloody Sunday - General Sir Mike Jackson

Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:41 am

Quoting Overlander (Reply 4):
It is a shame that the history of a once a revered name has been besmirched by the actions and in-actions of some evil men in the seventies.

Whilst you can talk about a day of shame if you really want to, and mistakes being made on that day (and make no mistake, whatever the rights and wrongs, British troops killing British civilians is shameful) I note the entire absence of the remotest condemnation in your posts for the IRA and their role on that day, or any other day.

Speaks volumes.  Yeah sure
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
GDB
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RE: Bloody Sunday - General Sir Mike Jackson

Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:15 am

As stated by a link, 1 PARA is a more dedicated special forces reqt.
This is a new change, nothing to do with Northern Ireland in 1972. How many N.I. tours did they do in the 20+ years after wards? Quite a few probably.

I'm not going to excuse that day, some of 1 PARA lost control, the initial investigation was a joke, it was the biggest victory the IRA had, in terms of PR, recruiting, funding.

But, the seemingly endless enquiry running since 1998, did throw up the fact that another unit, the Royal Anglicans, who had an observation posts and snipers covering the area.
They engaged gunmen, in the same part of Londonderry just before 1 PARA started firing.
Since it was an IRA tactic to use riots as an opportunity to fire on the army, likely this chance was taken by them briefly, but even if so, that does not absolve 1 PARA.
(They did not hang around long a few months later when the 'no go' areas were cleared, for all their 'we defend our areas' talk they soon pissed off then).

When we say 'riot' though, let's be clear we are not talking about just a few rocks, but petrol bombs, crude nail bombs and bottles filled with acid in some cases.
Since a petrol or nail bomb can potentially kill, at this stage in N.I. in severe situations, after loudhailer warnings, petrol bombers were targeted by marksmen with single aimed shots.
However, if you are dealing with elements of a society that will let their kids throw potentially lethal weapons at armed troops, using lethal force is not appropriate, so this stopped.

For all the specialised training, the highly restrictive rules of engagement-you had to be fired on to fire back, the rapidly learned lessons, soldiers are not policemen.
Throw in the extreme provocation they came under day in, day out, thankfully there was only ever one incident like Bloody Sunday. There would be other controversies, but over 25+ years, when over a whole generation of soldiers served in N.I. this has to be seen in context.
Then look at the number of civilians killed by the IRA, compare to troops and policemen (though many were murdered off duty), the true nature of the IRA becomes clear.

Anyway, they (whisper it) lost, what else are we to make of Gerry Adam's bolt from the blue 20 years after Bloody Sunday, 'the war is over, but we need your help to bring it about' .
So the idea of by force, causing a British withdrawal from a place where the majority wanted to remain British, was not going to happen after all.
Adam's knew by then, it wasn't going to happen of course.

Mike Jackson had a great career, of which Northern Ireland was only a part, he also served in many other areas, reached the top, resisted in 1999, pressure from US commander Wesley Clark to potentially spark off a NATO/Russian armed confrontation in Kosovo.
Since the Bloody Sunday inquiry is still going on, I suspect that coloured that part of his book.
 
overlander
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RE: Bloody Sunday - General Sir Mike Jackson

Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:39 am

Dear Banco,

I would rather not bring up this subject, but when someone starts promoting a book about how he has been such a great servant for the the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland, I find my stomach churning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)

Quoting Banco (Reply 5):
Speaks volumes.

All the best,

Overlander
It is better to travel hopefully.............but, always be prepared for the worst!
 
NAV20
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RE: Bloody Sunday - General Sir Mike Jackson

Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:55 pm

Quoting Overlander (Reply 4):
It does me wonder if they are disappearing as a result of their actions on Bloody Sunday

From the link I provided you'll see that the unit has been converted to a Special Forces role, with people from other battalions serving tours in it; on the same lines as units like the SAS and SBS, Overlander. Such units work hard at maintaining a low profile, for obvious reasons, and that includes keeping their locations pretty quiet too. I don't think it's likely to have any connection with Bloody Sunday.

Quoting Overlander (Reply 4):
It is a shame that the history of a once a revered name has been besmirched by the actions and in-actions of some evil men in the seventies.

I think the operative word is 'some,' Overlander; I was living in the UK at the time, and recall the (plain awful) Widgery proceedings. There was one thing, though, that the Army did right that day; checked everyone's ammunition after the action. Oddly enough, that could well have been (probably was) the result of efficient action by the unit's adjutant.  Smile

From that it emerged that most soldiers hadn't fired their weapons at all; others had fired a number of rounds. I believe that one guy had emptied his magazine and then reloaded and fired more shots.

On the other side, there is of course the still un-resolved question of whether Martin McGuinness (now a distinguished member of the NI Government) fired the first shot; or, if not, who did.

The very best account I read at the time was by Simon Winchester of the Guardian. He was actually there on the street, and even got shot at himself by the Army. Thanks to the internet I discover that his eyewitness story can still be called up:-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/bloodysunday/article/0,,184928,00.html

From that you will gather that rioting and stoning on the usual pattern had been going on for hours; at least one shot was fired at the troops, and other snipers were suspected; and the unit called in its Quick Reaction Force, which over-reacted and opened fire. Following that, there was other non-Army shooting, including automatic fire.

Bloody Sunday was the sort of event (like Dallas and 9/11) where the first visual images you see remain etched in your mind. I can recall a BBC TV report that evening that clearly showed two or three soldiers standing beside APCs firing their SLRs; but also an officer or NCO shouting, "Stop firing, STOP firing...!"

Personally I long ago concluded that this was a case of one small unit - twenty men or so, if you believe Simon Winchester) - that just plain 'lost it.' The only thing you can say in the British Army's defence is that their conduct over the whole 30 years of the troubles was very restrained - they lost far more people killed than they killed themselves. IMO very few armies could have stood up so well to that sort of pressure over such a long period without many more incidents like Bloody Sunday.

You only have to watch the TV news now, any day, and see what routinely happens to bystanders when troops get fired on in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, to be able to judge just how 'restrained' they were compared to today's soldiers.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
overlander
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RE: Bloody Sunday - General Sir Mike Jackson

Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:57 pm

Dear NAV20,

Thanks for your reply.

But, my point is that if 'General Sir Mike Jackson' wishes to publish a book it should be 'warts and all' to paraphrase one of his military predecessors in Ireland.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
From the link I provided you'll see that the unit has been converted to a Special Forces role, with people from other battalions serving tours in it; on the same lines as units like the SAS and SBS, Overlander. Such units work hard at maintaining a low profile, for obvious reasons, and that includes keeping their locations pretty quiet too. I don't think it's likely to have any connection with Bloody Sunday.

Are you sure?

By the way the 2nd & 3rd Battalion have been doing great service in Afghanistan and other areas, and if you are ever in Colchester, Essex, take a walk up Mersea Road as you will see them there, it's no great secret and the town are rightly proud of them. (stop by at the Odd One Out pub before you reach the barracks as you will find some of the finest ales in England.)

All the best,

Overlander
It is better to travel hopefully.............but, always be prepared for the worst!
 
Banco
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RE: Bloody Sunday - General Sir Mike Jackson

Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:13 pm

Quoting Overlander (Reply 7):
Dear Banco,

I would rather not bring up this subject, but when someone starts promoting a book about how he has been such a great servant for the the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland, I find my stomach churning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_...1972)

Dear Overlander,

If you're going to quote support for a subject, don't use Wikipedia.

And you STILL make not a single comment about the IRA. Fascinating.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
777236ER
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RE: Bloody Sunday - General Sir Mike Jackson

Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:01 pm

As per this http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/biography/0,,2169585,00.html review, he does talk about the events of Bloody Sunday.

Jackson also gives an account of Bloody Sunday, the day in January 1972 when soldiers from 1 Para fired on civil-rights marchers, resulting in 14 deaths. Jackson was then adjutant of the regiment. While he acknowledges he did not see any gunmen firing at the soldiers, he says there was "no doubt" in his mind that the Paras had come under fire. He makes a dig at the amount of time the Saville Inquiry into Bloody Sunday has taken to reach a conclusion and its expense. The controversy, he says, centres on the question of how British soldiers came to fire on "apparently unarmed civilians". It would be quite wrong, he argues, to attempt to answer the question until Lord Saville reports. But the Ministry of Defence admitted to the inquiry more than three years ago that none of those killed by the Paras were armed.

Unsurprisingly, it seems like he takes an implied pro-army point of view, which you'd expect. Not to come down one way or the other, but Jackson did say that the Bloody Sunday victims were innocent and shooting them was a mistake, in the Irish News last year, I think.

What must also be borne in mind is how political the Saville inquiry is (was). Sucessive Tory governments refused to have another inquiry after the Widgery enquiry, an enquiry which was such a farce that it caused as much damage as the events themselves. Blair's first government went to so many lengths to ensure the impartiality of the Saville inquiry, with the clear acknowledgement (if implied) that the Widgery enquiry was bollocks, that it gave significant credibility to the peace process Blair was trying to chair. The start of the Saville enquiry marked the end of the tit-for-tat blame game.

It's depressing that despite ten years of so much hope and potential that otherwise intelligent and rational people still descend into petty bickering, making sure that whenever one attrocity is mentioned the 'opposing' one is never far behind. Any death during the Troubles is a tragedy, but everyone, from all sides, has to move on. There's a chance for a real and lasting peace (and prosperity) in Northern Ireland, and silly comments like

Quoting Overlander (Thread starter):

Strangely enough they glossed over his responsibility about 'Bloody Sunday'. Apparently soldiers get into a 'rage' in Northern Ireland.

His life seems very ironic.

and

Quoting Banco (Reply 5):
I note the entire absence of the remotest condemnation in your posts for the IRA and their role on that day, or any other day.

do everything they can to undo the progress.

It doesn't matter what Mike Jackson thinks of Northern Ireland, or anything else. He's an old man that has no bearing on the present and the future.
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GDB
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RE: Bloody Sunday - General Sir Mike Jackson

Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:38 am

What do you expect from Gen Jackson, a diatribe right out of Republican news ?

He has nothing to be ashamed of, neither have the vast majority of the generation of British service personnel who served there.
They were put into a situation they would never have wanted, their commanders knew there was no military solution, that they were there to prevent a re-run or worse, of 1968/9's mass unrest, but the IRA thought there was a military-or what it was-a terrorist solution, it would have been better for all concerned had they reached that obvious conclusion many years before.

The army ended, officially, Operation Banner some weeks ago, with little fanfare.
Contrast that with the last major act of Irish Republican Terrorism, the 1998 Omagh bomb, aimed at such obvious elements of the 'Crown Forces' such as shoppers, Spanish tourists, infants in the womb.
Says it all.
 
overlander
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RE: Bloody Sunday - General Sir Mike Jackson

Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:54 pm

Hello All,

Apologies for bringing back this thread, but it has been my first oppurtunity to do so.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 11):
It would be quite wrong, he argues, to attempt to answer the question until Lord Saville reports

In this case, 'General Sir Mike Jackson' is correct.

My father, a British Soldier of 24 years has been advised not to comment any further about our time in Palace Barracks, Hollywood in 1972.

All the best,

Overlander
It is better to travel hopefully.............but, always be prepared for the worst!
 
777236ER
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RE: Bloody Sunday - General Sir Mike Jackson

Sun Oct 07, 2007 12:13 am

Quoting Overlander (Reply 13):

In this case, 'General Sir Mike Jackson' is correct.

My father, a British Soldier of 24 years has been advised not to comment any further about our time in Palace Barracks, Hollywood in 1972.

The issue is not what the Saville Inquiry reports, but more that it happened in the first place.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
overlander
Posts: 139
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RE: Bloody Sunday - General Sir Mike Jackson

Sun Oct 07, 2007 1:05 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 14):
The issue is not what the Saville Inquiry reports, but more that it happened in the first place.

Civil Rights protesters being killed?

Mike Jackson the adjutant?

I should read his book, a wise man like him no doubt never got to where he is without cracking a few eggs on the way.

All the best,

Overlander

PS For anyone who wants to start a thread about a book written recently by an IRA killer, please let me know. My contemt for them is even more than Wacko Jacko.
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