777236ER
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Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:30 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7006412.stm

Absolutely pathetic, and very telling that police chiefs support these two cowardly morons. This is yet another example of over-paid, under-worked police not doing their job and patting themselves on the back as a result.
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ManuCH
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:00 pm

This is a tragic accident... but:

Quote:
He said the PCSOs might not have been able to swim, and in that case they should not have risked their lives.

... which I hope is the key in this case. If the PCSOs couldn't swim, there's no point in jumping in a >2m deep pond to try saving someone - they would have drowned as well.
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lewis
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:08 pm

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 1):
If the PCSOs couldn't swim

This probably explains everything but both of them could not swim in a POND? What kind of training do these PCSOs go through? What are their main duties? They are paid to do what? I think they are probably the 'cops' that tell people to pick up their dog's poo and that's it. That is a waste of money....
 
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:10 pm

Quoting Lewis (Reply 2):
This probably explains everything but both of them could not swim in a POND?

Well, if the pond is more than 2 meters deep, like the article says, it doesn't matter if it's a pond or not...

Quoting Lewis (Reply 2):
What kind of training do these PCSOs go through? What are their main duties? They are paid to do what? I think they are probably the 'cops' that tell people to pick up their dog's poo and that's it. That is a waste of money....

I've never heard of those PCSOs, it must be something UK-specific, but yes, I guess they're doing exactly this, and issuing parking tickets maybe...
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scbriml
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:28 pm

Let's just clarify one thing, PCSOs are not policemen. They are "support officers" - basically, joe blogs playing at being cops. I believe PCSO is the new name for what used to be known as Special Constables. Same thing, new name.

As the article says, they are not trained as policemen.

Quote:
Paul Kelly, chairman of the Police Federation in Manchester, said PCSOs do not have the same level of training as police officers to deal with life-saving situations.

I would hate for real cops to get a bad name over this.

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Thorben
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:53 pm

Reminds me of the headline "Blunkett's pretend-police is putting lives at risk" that I read in a British newspaper some time ago.

Quote:
The inquest into his death heard the PCSOs did not rescue him as they were not trained to deal with the incident.

What kind of training do you need for this? Swimming and pulling a ten-year-old out of the water doesn't require any training.
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:56 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Thread starter):
Absolutely pathetic, and very telling that police chiefs support these two cowardly morons.

Absolutely pathetic is right.. your comment that is!!

"The alarm was raised and the PCSOs arrived on the scene. Police said they could see no sign of Jordon in the water, so they radioed trained officers for help."

It seems from this that there was no sign of Jordon on the surface and unless trained and equipped for water rescue the risk of adding to the coroners work load and the list of bereved relatives is far to great.

If he was on the surface, a different matter, many everyday items can be used for flotation. Spare tyre from a car, even seat cushions will often provide enough bouyancy to support a person(or several)

Tragic I know
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:58 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 5):
Swimming and pulling a ten-year-old out of the water doesn't require any training.

If you consider learning to swim a "training", then yes, it does. There are more people out there who can't swim than what you would believe.
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:00 pm

There are a couple of issues in saving a drowning person that weren't really addressed here, especially when it comes to the issue of what they are trained or not trained in.

* A conscious drowning victim is most likely panicking. It is amazing the strength a panicked person will have.
In their swinging and struggling, you are likely to get knocked out.

* The victim's fight for survival may make you a victim.
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Thorben
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:05 pm

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 7):
If you consider learning to swim a "training", then yes, it does. There are more people out there who can't swim than what you would believe.

Isn't it a prerequisite to be able to swim to work for the police?

Quoting STLGph (Reply 8):
* A conscious drowning victim is most likely panicking. It is amazing the strength a panicked person will have.
In their swinging and struggling, you are likely to get knocked out.

* The victim's fight for survival may make you a victim.

Not that bad when you weigh three times of what that person weighs.
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:12 pm

This stinks. I watch as one or two of these plodders pass my house every day. I know where they are going. Down the local council estate office. Real coppers? NO! But the way they strut their stuff you would think they were. If they are not capable of saving lives (in this case water) they should not be employed. Worthless. Absolutely worthless. Isn't 'saving lives' a major part of police work?
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:20 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):
Not that bad when you weigh three times of what that person weighs.

i remember in all my water safety classes that the size of a person really doesn't matter. you yourself can still get knocked out and you yourself can still drown.
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:21 pm

Quoting Farcry (Reply 10):
Isn't 'saving lives' a major part of police work?

It should be.

[Edited 2007-09-21 15:29:42]
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:27 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 4):
They are "support officers" - basically, joe blogs playing at being cops.

No, they are community wardens, so to speak. They can detain someone until a police officer arrives.

They do not have authority to carry out a search of you, unless with a police officer, I believe.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 4):
I believe PCSO is the new name for what used to be known as Special Constables.

No No No  Wink

A "Special Constable" is a volunteer Police Officer, with the same powers as a full time cop.
Please don't confuse the 2, hope this clears things up a little.  Smile


Back to the situation, it was a 2m deep pond, with there being 2 of them at the scene, i'm sure they could have teamed up to try and save the child concerned. A sad state of affairs i'm afraid  Sad




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CaptOveur
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:32 pm

Quoting Lewis (Reply 2):
What kind of training do these PCSOs go through?

Probably a lot of crap about what they can and cannot do- and a healthy scare about being sued by everyone under the sun if they overstep their authority. Thank the lawyers, they were probably a big factor in these guys not acting.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 8):
* The victim's fight for survival may make you a victim.

Lesson one of lifeguard school... Which is why it is good they did not attempt the rescue- especially if they were weak swimmers themselves.
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:41 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):
Isn't it a prerequisite to be able to swim to work for the police?

Not for PCSOs, who aren't real police.
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777236ER
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 4):
Let's just clarify one thing, PCSOs are not policemen. They are "support officers" - basically, joe blogs playing at being cops. I believe PCSO is the new name for what used to be known as Special Constables. Same thing, new name.

As the article says, they are not trained as policemen.

The police asked for, and got PCSOs in the 2002 Police Reform Act. It was the idea of the police force, and allows them to reduce the number of real police officers on the streets.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 6):
It seems from this that there was no sign of Jordon on the surface and unless trained and equipped for water rescue the risk of adding to the coroners work load and the list of bereved relatives is far to great.

If he was on the surface, a different matter, many everyday items can be used for flotation. Spare tyre from a car, even seat cushions will often provide enough bouyancy to support a person(or several)

Bollocks. It's a pond and his sister had already jumped into the pond to try and rescue him. Two passers-by jumped into the bloody thing, the community support officers still stood by. They are paid by the public for protection, yet the police consistently pay themselves more and give themselves less duty. To stand by while a little child drowns in a pond in ridiculous.

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 13):
No, they are community wardens, so to speak. They can detain someone until a police officer arrives.

Yes, these fake police can detain people, stop and search people and vehicles, seize posessions and fine the public without recourse to courts, yet they can't jump into a 2m pool to save the life of a ten year old?

The 'officers' should be sacked, there should be a public enquiry to the whole seedy business of PCSOs and there should be wholesale of the police force, with the removal of the six-figure salaried senior officers who blame the government, lack of legislation, foreigners and the poor for problems caused by themselves.
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Tom12
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:51 pm

Thats rediculous.


They should havce some form of swimming training when they sign up.

Even so, couldn't they try and find someone who could swim?
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CaptOveur
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:55 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):

Isn't it a prerequisite to be able to swim to work for the police?

I don't recall a swimming test- or even swimming lessons anywhere in my Department's training syllabus. I am thinking that is probably the norm.

Basic first aid and CPR isn't even covered at our academy- Everyone gets their red cross certifications hopefully before they complete FTO.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 16):
The 'officers' should be sacked

Because they made a perfectly legal decision that allowed them to go home at the end of the shift? Put yourself in their shoes for a minute and think about the situation objectively.
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777236ER
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:03 am

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 19):

Because they made a perfectly legal decision that allowed them to go home at the end of the shift? Put yourself in their shoes for a minute and think about the situation objectively.

In their position I would have got into a 2m pond and tried to save the life of the child. In fact, I (and most people, you included?) would do that whether or not I was being paid by the public to protect and serve them. The fact that PCSOs can stand there while a child drowns, his sister is trying to save him and passers-by are wading in to try and help is absolutely pathetic.
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:08 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 20):
The fact that PCSOs can stand there while a child drowns, his sister is trying to save him and passers-by are wading in to try and help is absolutely pathetic.

Did you even read the article you posted.......
"Jordon Lyon leapt into the water in Wigan, Greater Manchester, after his eight-year-old stepsister Bethany got into difficulties on 3 May"
He was attempting to save his sister not the other way round.

The 2 officers in question should at least have been sanctioned/disciplined in some way.

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777236ER
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:43 am

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 21):
"Jordon Lyon leapt into the water in Wigan, Greater Manchester, after his eight-year-old stepsister Bethany got into difficulties on 3 May"
He was attempting to save his sister not the other way round.

Yes, but at the point where anglers had pulled his sister out the boy had disappeared from view and passers by and his sister got in to try and help. I was talking about the point at which the PSCOs had arrived. It was ultimately the boy's stepfather who pulled him out of the water.

Edit: all this according to the radio!

[Edited 2007-09-21 17:43:51]
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legoguy
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:54 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 22):
and his sister got in to try and help.

No where in the article does it state his step-sister helped.

I would have thought commonsense would have made the PCSOs at least attempt looking for the child in the water by wading in.

However I also have to ask... where were the parents during this? Surely the parents should have been aware where the children were playing and kept a watchful eye over them incase such an event occurred.
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:55 am

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 15):
Not for PCSOs, who aren't real police.

If it isn't a requirement it bloody should be. These two particular useless idle layabouts should be fired on the spot. I don't care whether they've been trained or not, in a job like that you HAVE to try and help, without question and without thought of self. They have a duty of care to the public, end of story.
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:39 am

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 1):


Quote:
He said the PCSOs might not have been able to swim, and in that case they should not have risked their lives.

Anyone else think that the ability to swim should be a requirement for even those over glorified hall monitors?
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Mir
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:45 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 24):
Anyone else think that the ability to swim should be a requirement for even those over glorified hall monitors?

Ability to swim and CPR/First Aid training should be a requirement for all police officers who are on patrol.

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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:16 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 25):
Ability to swim and CPR/First Aid training should be a requirement for all police officers who are on patrol.

Agreed.
Anyone involved with the emergency services should be able to swim, and at least, hold basic first aid badges
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:31 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 16):
Bollocks. It's a pond and his sister had already jumped into the pond to try and rescue him.

Have you actually seen pictures of this 'pond'? Its several dozen meters wide, and deep in the middle.



If the boy was not in view when the officers arrived there, he could have been anywhere in that lake - it took his father and other people a not insignificant amount of time to find Jordan when they started looking, and that was with the anglers pointing out the last place he was seen.

The real question here is what the hell was a 10 year old, an 8 year old and other similiarly aged siblings doing messing around near deep water unsupervised? They should never have been in that water to begin with.
 
777236ER
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:53 am

Quoting Moo (Reply 27):

Have you actually seen pictures of this 'pond'? Its several dozen meters wide, and deep in the middle.

Oh yes, a veritable death trap of water that, certainly any adult could quite easily drown in there!  Yeah sure

Quoting Moo (Reply 27):

If the boy was not in view when the officers arrived there, he could have been anywhere in that lake - it took his father and other people a not insignificant amount of time to find Jordan when they started looking, and that was with the anglers pointing out the last place he was seen.

Don't make up theories, let's go by the facts. The facts are that the two anglers who did the right thing and tried to help were both in their sixties. It's one of them who said that the PCSO just 'stood there' after they had rescued the girl.

Sixty year old anglers have no qualms about diving in to save a child, a father and friend have no qualms about diving in to save a child, yet police officers, even fake ones, who are paid ever-increasing amounts do nothing, stand there and watch a father desperately dive into a pond to try and save his son? Sorry, that can't be condoned. You've also handily ignored the fact that when a real police officer (Sgt. Craig Lippitt) arrived at the scene, after the PCSOs arrived, he jumped in to help.

This is the latest tragic instance of the police abusing the power, money and priviledges that the rest of society give them, in this case by creating fake police who are expensive and pointless.
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moo
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:08 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 28):
Oh yes, a veritable death trap of water that, certainly any adult could quite easily drown in there! Yeah sure

Have you visited the location? No? Then you have absolutely no knowledge of the conditions then.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 28):

Don't make up theories, let's go by the facts. The facts are that the two anglers who did the right thing and tried to help were both in their sixties. It's one of them who said that the PCSO just 'stood there' after they had rescued the girl.

Who is making up theories? Everything I stated in my above post has been stated before on a news network or by the police in a statement - the anglers pulled the girl from the water by using their rods, the boy had not been seen for 'some time' before the officers arrived on scene, and it took others even more time to find him and pull him from the water.

This was in no means an easy rescue - once a victim is under water, they can and invariably do shift.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 28):
Sixty year old anglers have no qualms about diving in to save a child,

They did not dive in, you are exaggerating their actions.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 28):
a father and friend have no qualms about diving in to save a child,

I most certainly expect the father to do everything he can.

I do not expect untrained people to risk their own lives, regardless of their profession.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 28):
This is the latest tragic instance of the police abusing the power, money and priviledges that the rest of society give them, in this case by creating fake police who are expensive and pointless.

Ahh, and here we come to your real agenda - all of this is really just a thinly veiled attack on an entity that you have issues with. Explains a lot.
 
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:13 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 28):
You've also handily ignored the fact that when a real police officer (Sgt. Craig Lippitt) arrived at the scene, after the PCSOs arrived, he jumped in to help.

 Confused Why accuse him of ignoring a fact which is not stated within the article you linked? No where in the opening thread start does it say the police man you named jumped in to search for the child upon arrival.
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777236ER
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:17 am

Quoting Moo (Reply 29):

Have you visited the location? No? Then you have absolutely no knowledge of the conditions then.

I know that anglers, passers by and another police officer jumped into the pond. Therefore the conditions were suitable for an adult to jump into the pond.

Quoting Moo (Reply 29):
They did not dive in, you are exaggerating their actions.

Please, it's a figure of speech, as you well know. They probably didn't jump in either.

Quoting Moo (Reply 29):

I do not expect untrained people to risk their own lives, regardless of their profession.

It doesn't take any training to try and save a 10 year old child from drowning in a pond. The police are paid to serve and protect us, and it's clear from this case that the public would expect a police officer to try and save a drowning child. It seems you agree with the incessant self-imposed dumbing down of the police - albeit with increased cost and loss of liberties to the public.

Quoting Moo (Reply 29):
Ahh, and here we come to your real agenda - all of this is really just a thinly veiled attack on an entity that you have issues with. Explains a lot.

It's clear what my agenda was from my first (and subsequent) posts. This is yet another example of the pointless nature of PCSOs. Regardless of that point, nearly everyone seems to agree that what the PCSOs did was pathetic, especially given that elderly men, children and a PC had no qualms about trying to save the child.

Don't be facetious - you would have waded in to try and save the child, as any decent human would have done. Don't try and defend these fools to make some bizarre political point.
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777236ER
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:20 am

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 30):

Confused Why accuse him of ignoring a fact which is not stated within the article you linked? No where in the opening thread start does it say the police man you named jumped in to search for the child upon arrival.

Moo has done his own research into what happened, he would have come across this fact. If not, then fair enough, here is the source:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2174312,00.html
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legoguy
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:22 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 32):

Thanks for the extra link. I agree the Police Support Officers should have done more, but I also agree with Moo about the absence of parental supervision of the young children.
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:56 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 32):
Moo has done his own research into what happened, he would have come across this fact. If not, then fair enough, here is the source:

And where did I dispute that particular little factoid? Nowhere, thats where.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 31):
I know that anglers, passers by and another police officer jumped into the pond. Therefore the conditions were suitable for an adult to jump into the pond.

Right, because the support officers in this case knew that for a fact - the actions of another person are the actions of another person, made on the judgment of another person.

This all regardless of the fact that one support officer was not actually at the scene the whole time, he was at the main road guiding the emergency services in as there had been some confusion about the exact location of the lake. What would have happened if the other officer had gone in and become a casualty himself? His support partner was not there.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 31):

It doesn't take any training to try and save a 10 year old child from drowning in a pond.

I am a trained life guard, and yes, it does take significant training to save *anyone* in a drowning scenario without bringing undue risk to yourself.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 31):
The police are paid to serve and protect us,

Not at the cost of their own lives they aren't.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 31):
It seems you agree with the incessant self-imposed dumbing down of the police - albeit with increased cost and loss of liberties to the public.

Ahh, putting words into my mouth are you eh?

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 31):
This is yet another example of the pointless nature of PCSOs.

And yet you know sod all about all the other work PCSOs do, but you are quite willing to write them off based on the little that you do know.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 31):
Regardless of that point, nearly everyone seems to agree that what the PCSOs did was pathetic, especially given that elderly men, children and a PC had no qualms about trying to save the child.

So you say, I haven't exactly heard a big outcry about it, only some fairly biased media coverage and some comments from the family.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 31):
Don't be facetious - you would have waded in to try and save the child, as any decent human would have done.

I actually cannot say, at this moment in time, whether I would have or not - only 'wannabe heroes' say they would without hesitation do what these officers didn't. I would need to judge the situation, the risk and the information known at the time.
 
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:06 am

Quoting Moo (Reply 27):

Have you actually seen pictures of this 'pond'? Its several dozen meters wide, and deep in the middle.

That is a pond and would be easily swum by someone with even a modicum of ability.
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:10 am

Apparently, despite it's benign appearance, that water IS seen as being dangerous, due to it being rather deeper than it seems.
While on the surface, this does seem to stink, and I think that both police officers and PSCO's should have more training in this area, there might be a reason for caution due to an incident that many have forgotten.
In the early 80's during rough weather at a coastal town whose name escapes me, a member of the public went in to try and save his dog who had got into difficulty.
He did too, so two police officers went in to save him.
All three drowned.
That was the sea, in bad weather true, but don't think that there was no impact on procedures etc, as a result of it.

If the water in this incident was known to be dangerous, what the hell were two kids doing, unsupervised by their parents, swimming in it? That's what swimming pools are for.
As a kid, I was only ever allowed to go swimming in public pools.
I bet the parents are making a big noise about this, yes they are in grief, yes there are issues about training and procedure around this tragedy, but heaven forbid they take any responsibility for this, that's not the done thing all too often these days.

It's also known that many rank and file police officers are unhappy with PSCO's, partly due to fears of potential 'mission creep', partly due to any failings by them being blamed on the Police force in general.
 
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:12 pm

Quoting Moo (Reply 34):
I am a trained life guard, and yes, it does take significant training to save *anyone* in a drowning scenario without bringing undue risk to yourself.

Well, I'm not. And guess what, I was able to rescue a drowning friend from a deep river without endangering myself. It's not so hard as some people describe it if one uses his brain.
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CaptOveur
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:15 pm

Clearly a few people have thrown out common sense in this thread to forward another agenda.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
777236ER
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:33 pm

Quoting Moo (Reply 34):
Right, because the support officers in this case knew that for a fact - the actions of another person are the actions of another person, made on the judgment of another person.

This all regardless of the fact that one support officer was not actually at the scene the whole time, he was at the main road guiding the emergency services in as there had been some confusion about the exact location of the lake. What would have happened if the other officer had gone in and become a casualty himself? His support partner was not there.

You're making excuses for the PCSOs that they (and the police themselves) aren't even using, why? A real police officer, as well as elderly anglers, waded into the pool, they made the judgement that the risk of a child dying was more important than the risk to their own lives, and they are to be commended, yet the people charged with serving the public feel it was better for them to stand by the side an watch.

Quoting Moo (Reply 34):

I am a trained life guard, and yes, it does take significant training to save *anyone* in a drowning scenario without bringing undue risk to yourself.

Something which didn't phase two 60+ anglers, other children and another police officer.

Quoting Moo (Reply 34):

Not at the cost of their own lives they aren't.

Ridiculous, regardless that there is no apparent significant risk to their lives wading into a pond like that but police officers are paid to serve and protect us. In fact, their sworn duty is to protect the community. But of course, because of the installation of fake police like PCSOs, this is dumbed down to the point where ludicrous things like this happen.

Quoting Moo (Reply 34):
And yet you know sod all about all the other work PCSOs do, but you are quite willing to write them off based on the little that you do know.

I know exactly what PCSOs do. They aren't sworn police officers, yet can detain people. It's illegal to ignore their instructions. They can fine the public, they can seize the public's posessions, and they get paid up to £25k PA.



Quoting Moo (Reply 34):
I actually cannot say, at this moment in time, whether I would have or not - only 'wannabe heroes' say they would without hesitation do what these officers didn't. I would need to judge the situation, the risk and the information known at the time.

A cop out. Knowing what you know, and putting yourself in the position of the PCSOs, would you have tried to save the child?
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RE: Police Stand By As Child Drowns In Pond

Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:27 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 39):

I know exactly what PCSOs do. They aren't sworn police officers, yet can detain people.

We have those in this country too. We call them security guards. What is your big problem with them? They probably cost half what a police officer does and can be trained in a third of the time- or less.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 39):
A cop out. Knowing what you know, and putting yourself in the position of the PCSOs, would you have tried to save the child?

Invalid. He knows if he knows how to swim. We have no idea if the PCSOs could swim. If they could not swim they were better off staying on shore.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 39):
Something which didn't phase two 60+ anglers, other children and another police officer.

Ever hear the phrase ignorance is bliss? Maybe the 60+ year old anglers didn't know the risks associated with water rescue? Maybe the police officer was trained in water rescue? Maybe he had worked as a lifeguard when he was younger? Maybe you need a girlfriend? The maybes in this are what make arguing about it pointless. We have named several valid reasons to not proceed into the water. Ever think maybe the PCSOs could swim.. but maybe they didn't think they could with 35-40lbs of gear on (thats about what a US police officer's gear weighs) It takes a fair bit of time to get all that gear off. Even then someone has to guard the gear- I know your cops don't carry weapons, but the radios alone are worth a few thousand dollars and you don't want bad guys with a police radio. I don't know if they wear bullet proof vests- but those are a pain to get on and off and if they get submerged in water they do 2 things: they turn into a weight that could drag anyone down- and after being submerged they have to be thrown away at a cost of almost a thousand dollars.

What is your major problem with the PCSOs? Is it because they have some but not all the powers of a full police officer and you don't? They actually get paid for their services? Did one write you a ticket? Would we be having this discussion if it had been 2 police officers on the shore not doing anything? Somehow I doubt it.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.

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