copaair737
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A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:42 am

I realize he's made many inflammatory remarks, my question is, why do people criticize him so much, when there are other regimes in the region that are much more oppressive?
In Iran, you can at least vote for the leader, though the screening process takes away a lot of the choice.

In Saudi Arabia, you can't even vote, and the regime there is probably the most oppressive regime in the world, yet we see our President treating the Royal Family from there with lots of respect.

Ahmedinejad shows up in America, and he is treated like a criminal, they show up, they are treated extremely well.

Egypt is another oppressive regime that is never talked about. The list goes on and on.

I just don't see how Ahmedinejad is criticized and the others not. I can understand if we took the same stance with all the dictatorships in the region, but we don't.

Seems a bit odd to me.
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rjpieces
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:44 am

Totally understandable question...I guess the difference is that Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc don't try to export Islamic revolution, don't fund terrorist groups like Hezbollah, don't provide explosives and supplies to the insurgency in Iraq, aren't developing nuclear weapons, and don't have Americna blood on their hands, etc...Hope this helps explain it...
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copaair737
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:45 am

should have added this:

I'm not defending his actions in any way, I find his speech full of hatred as well, and a lot of what he says is ridiculous, I'm just wondering why some criticize him so much, and not much is said about the Saudi regime.
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LTU932
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:50 am

Quoting Copaair737 (Thread starter):
I realize he's made many inflammatory remarks, my question is, why do people criticize him so much, when there are other regimes in the region that are much more oppressive?

Simple: Mahmaniac is a much more public figure than, say, Hosni Mubarrak or the Saud family. Hell, even the Burma (or as they want to be called, Myanmar) military junta dictatorship hasn't been discussed in years in the public, or was at least not as publicised as Iran's and/or North Korea's nuclear ambitions.

Quoting Copaair737 (Thread starter):
In Saudi Arabia, you can't even vote, and the regime there is probably the most oppressive regime in the world

I'm not here to defend the human rights violations in Saudi-Arabia, however I have to say that along with Burma, North Korea is the most oppressive regime of them all. Why? Because the DPRK still believes in absolute self reliance (or the Juche policy), despite all the humanitarian aid the country got during the big famine and even today, their dictator is a certifiable madman who believes himself and his father to be god, and their people are literally imprisoned in their own country. The only reason why they even got an airline at all is the little tourism they have, or VFR traffic into Pyongyang.
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:52 am

I think one of the reasons is that the other countries have shown good will to the U.S. Ahmedinejad has done just the opposite.
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copaair737
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:52 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3):
I'm not here to defend the human rights violations in Saudi-Arabia, however I have to say that along with Burma, North Korea is the most oppressive regime of them all.

I forgot about those two. SA is more oppressive than Iran IMO, but NK probably has them both beat.

Burma is pretty bizarre.
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copaair737
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:55 am

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 4):
I think one of the reasons is that the other countries have shown good will to the U.S. Ahmedinejad has done just the opposite.

Yes, but shouldn't they be criticized for their oppressiveness as well, despite them being our "allies" ( I refuse to consider the Saudis an American ally).

So if Ahmedinejad came out, and renounced all his remarks and sided with America, would the criticism stop?

I guess it worked for Khaddafi.
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:58 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3):
The only reason why they even got an airline at all is the little tourism they have, or VFR traffic into Pyongyang.

That, and to take the dignitaries down to Macau to while away the national budget in casinos  Yeah sure

Very interesting points that you make Copaair737 - another Dictator I would add to that list is Mugabe, the beatings handed out to the opposition party members are intolerably inhumane... sanctions really are not enough. It's not as if the famine and hardship the citizens are now going through wasn't inevitable, chuck out the white farmers, burn the machinery and fields and then, shock horror, a couple of years down the line they have food shortages... its utterly stupid.


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copaair737
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:05 am

Mugabe is a savage as well, but I don't think his time with us will be long lived. He's getting up there in age and his health is bad.

The country of Zimbabwe is going down the tubes at an alarming rate too, what with their 7000% inflation and all.
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N1120A
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:16 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 1):
don't fund terrorist groups like Hezbollah

And it is the Bush Administration that has allowed that to keep on, despite Iranian offers to the contrary

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 1):
don't provide explosives and supplies to the insurgency in Iraq

Which has not been proven.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 1):
aren't developing nuclear weapons

Which really hasn't been proven.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 1):
and don't have Americna blood on their hands

 redflag 
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L-188
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:19 am

Quoting Copaair737 (Thread starter):
In Iran, you can at least vote for the leader,

And if you vote wrong you loose your head.

Fact is that Iran is in a world of hurt because it's best and brightest has fled the country over the last 30 years, leaving most of the dumards behind. Those that are easly enchanted by the hatred that is islam. That country has been poisioned by that belief system. I just can't imagine how much audit council will be needed when they decide they want to return to the world stage.
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copaair737
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:20 am

For all we know, the Saudis could have been behind 9/11, but they are still welcomed as guests of honor into our Country.
One of the hijackers who lived in San Diego was getting checks from Prince Bandar's wife, yet the Sazudi royals are treated like royalty when they come here.

If you are going to criticize one regime, it's hypocritical not to criticize them all.
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copaair737
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:22 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):
And if you vote wrong you loose your head.

Not true, there are other candidates, yet all are screened by the Ayatullahs.
You don't get killed for voting for the other candidate, nor do the rival candidates get jailed or killed.
In Saudi Arabia, you don't even get the choice to vote, all you get is an oppressive regime of royalty.
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LTU932
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:28 am

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 12):
Not true, there are other candidates, yet all are screened by the Ayatullahs.

  

Even the most liberal of all candidates will only appear on the ballot if the Ayatollahs give their blessing for that (no pun intended). Remember: the real people in power in Iran are the clerics, from whom one of them becomes Supreme Leader of Iran, in this case Grand Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who was president himself for a while before becoming the successor of the original Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Khomeini.

[Edited 2007-09-26 03:30:43]
 
CupraIbiza
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:01 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 13):
Remember: the real people in power in Iran are the clerics, from whom one of them becomes Supreme Leader of Iran

This was the point I was going to make. I believe we have to a degree legitimised Ahmadinejad by giving him so much press; I think we should ignore next time he makes an outlandish statement.

If we as a world are concerned about Iran we should focus less on Ahmadinejad and more on the the Supreme Leader.
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N1120A
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:03 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):

And if you vote wrong you loose your head.

Wrong.

Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 14):

If we as a world are concerned about Iran we should focus less on Ahmadinejad and more on the the Supreme Leader.

Even Khamnei doesn't have the final say when it comes to foreign policy. That generally comes from the Council of Guardians, who are heavily influenced by Rafsanjani and former president Khatami.
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b752fanatic
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:08 am

We embrace the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, yet we despise the Islamic Republic of Iran. Both "cruel" regimes.

We embrace the first because is our ally.

We despise the second because is our enemy.

That's America for you. End of story.  Cool
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:10 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
Which has not been proven.

I think you need to speak with our friend UH60. He can tell you about Iran meddling in Iraqi affairs.
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N1120A
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:12 am

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 17):

I think you need to speak with our friend UH60. He can tell you about Iran meddling in Iraqi affairs.

For which he has no evidence as well. What there is evidence of, however, is the millions coming from Saudi Arabia supporting Sunni insurgents.
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copaair737
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:14 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
For which he has no evidence as well. What there is evidence of, however, is the millions coming from Saudi Arabia supporting Sunni insurgents.

Yet the US welcomes the Saudi Royals into America with great hospitality.

It makes no sense to me.
Iran may or may not cause things, but there is evidence of Saudis meddling in things, yet the Iranians are punished.

It should be the other way around.
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LTU932
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:24 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
That generally comes from the Council of Guardians, who are heavily influenced by Rafsanjani and former president Khatami.

How can Rafsanjani and Khatami influence that council? Hell, AFAIK Rafsanjani lost the elections against Mahmaniac and is considered someone who prefers to avoid any conflict with the US, like his successor Khatami, and unlike Ahmadinejad.
 
Charles79
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:25 am

To answer the thread starter, it may well come down to media propaganda and who's making the most noise at the time. I agree that our country has a history of making friends with folks and regimes that later on turned out to be less than desirable, but I guess it comes down to making connections and deals. When communism was the enemy we made friends with Saddam, OBL, and others that later on we labeled enemies. However, I think that the US government considered them enemies even then, but had no choice to befriend them as it was fighting a bigger fish. Such is the case today, in the fight against terrorism we've gone to bed with regimes that may be oppressive at home but facilitate our military effort. We can call it wrong, dishonest, hypocrisy, etc, bottom-line it's how governments have operated for hundreds of years.

In an ideal world we wouldn't have oppressive regimes at all; in a less than ideal world we would treat everyone fairly and call a thief a thief all the time, without making distinctions because they are "allies". In the real world, we sometimes have to look a person's sins to obtain their help to achieve a higher objective. But don't worry, those that do wrong will pay when the day comes, no one stays in power forever.

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UH60FtRucker
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:56 am

Quoting Copaair737 (Thread starter):
my question is, why do people criticize him so much, when there are other regimes in the region that are much more oppressive?

Because arms from his country are being used to kill US soldiers, and he is doing nothing to stop it, perhaps even sanctioning it.

I dunno... call me crazy... but people who want me and my friends dead, are usually not my friends! So I think that's a perfectly good reason not to like the man. (Oh and he wants my family in Israel wiped off the map, but who doesn't, these days?)

Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
For which he has no evidence as well. What there is evidence of, however, is the millions coming from Saudi Arabia supporting Sunni insurgents.

Ahh, yes, Alireza knows more than those on the ground.

I guess that manpad - the Iranian made Misagh - which was fired at me.... fell into Iraqi hands by accident? Iran, no doubt, had no knowledge of their weapons being sold/given to insurgents in Iraq. Instead of killing the man who fired the manpad, and turning the platform into my higher command... I probably should have flown 100 miles to the east and hand delivered the thing to the Iranians. I bet they really wanted it back.... because those pesky insurgents stole it. God, get a grip.  Yeah sure

But aside from a personal account, which convinces me that Iranian arms are being supplied to kill US soldiers, there are numerous factual reports that indicate Iran's involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan.

-UH60
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Emirates773ER
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:39 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 22):

But aside from a personal account, which convinces me that Iranian arms are being supplied to kill US soldiers, there are numerous factual reports that indicate Iran's involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan.

That really isn't a good enough reason in all fairness, nato troops get attacked by chinese, pakistani and russian weapons on a daily basis, why don't those nations get some flak? Hell, pakistan harbors Osama Bin Laden himself yet no one wants to left a finger at them, half the saudi sheikhs are financing al qaeda secretly yet no one seems to be pointing fingers at them either, the only reason iran gets to sit on the hot seat is because of its powerful position in the region.
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:44 pm

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 23):
That really isn't a good enough reason in all fairness

Well... read what I said.

I'm not saying we should invade the country. All I did was answer why I didn't like the man. ...His country is arming people who are killing US soldiers, and he's not stopping them. Either the Iranian government is actively/passively arming the insurgency... or they are complete inept and cannot maintain accountability of their own military equipment.

...That's not a good reason to simply dislike a person? Really?

-UH60
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AGM100
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:53 pm

Is it enough that he calls my country the great Satan and wishes us destroyed. I dont know , call me crazy ... but I want to knock his ass in the dirt just for insulting us. I know I know .. were supposed to cower and blame ourselves for all the worlds problems ...

Cant we just insert a special forces team ,and just give him an old fashion ass kicking like the one I had when I disrespected some guy bigger than me one time. Dont Kill him , just pound the dog crap out of him and fly away.

UH could you get them in and out ,, I may have some guys ? Big grin

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andessmf
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:10 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 1):
Totally understandable question

Yes

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 1):
I guess the difference is that Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc don't try to export Islamic revolution, don't fund terrorist groups like Hezbollah, don't provide explosives and supplies to the insurgency in Iraq,

Hard to say that those countries don't do the same thing.

But even if Iraq did not exist, the rest of the ME would never allow the Iranians to get the influence they want in the region. After all, Iranians are not Arabs.

Who here does not believe that a nuclear arms race in the region would do no good?
 
dc863
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:26 pm

The Saudis are our "allies" because of oil and our deal to protect the Royals with our military. In the 1970s Pakistan had the honor of militarily defending the House of Saud.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
And it is the Bush Administration that has allowed that to keep on, despite Iranian offers to the contrary

We aren't privy to all the details of the Iranian "peace" offering. Every administration has had trouble with the Iranian clerics since Carter. There are some things in the Iranian deal that are probably unacceptable to our "allies" in the region. Dealing with a regime like Iran's isn't so cut and dry.
 
LAXspotter
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:55 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):



Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
For which he has no evidence as well. What there is evidence of, however, is the millions coming from Saudi Arabia supporting Sunni insurgents.

I'm gonna take his word for it, someone who clearly knows the region, and is from there.

Just wondering tho, if Saudi Arabia is an ally of the US, yet 15 of the 19 Hijackers came from there, and obviously most of the extremists are coming out of there, so why not take the global war of terror to the Saudis, instead of taking it into Iraq, where not one hijacker came from or received funding.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:08 pm

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 28):

Just wondering tho, if Saudi Arabia is an ally of the US, yet 15 of the 19 Hijackers came from there, and obviously most of the extremists are coming out of there, so why not take the global war of terror to the Saudis, instead of taking it into Iraq, where not one hijacker came from or received funding.

The way I see it - the government is an uneasy ally of the US.

...It is the people who are enemies of the US. And why? I mean really... when you look at the life of an average Saudi Arabian, has the US really committed some great injustice against them. I'd say... no.

The truth is, their governments are far more guilty. Their government and their religion are far more oppressive to their lives, than the US. It's a lot like how religion can be. Think about it, if you're the Saudi government, how do you keep an entire population from rising up because the mistreatment they endure? You blame someone else.

Hundreds of years ago in Europe, the church kept control of the people by saying, "All of your problems are a trial by god. Live a moral life, work hard, don't complain and you will be rewarded by god, when you die." The same is done by governments today, "Don't look at us! We're not to blame for your poor living conditions! America [or whoever your enemy is] is to blame for your lot in life! Blame them! They're the infidels!"

So no wonder a lot of them hate us! They've been told to hate us all their lives. When I was in Iraq, I was amazed at how little many of the Iraqis knew about the rest of the world. Literature, art, culture, politics, the rights/privileges other nations enjoy... but sure as hell... they could all spout off about how the West was corrupt.

Bill Clinton's infidelities? They knew all about it.

Nixon? Sex tapes of celebrities? The mother who drown her kids? And all kinds of other scandals. But the all of the aid provided to the tsunami victims? Yeah right.

-UH60
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LAXspotter
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:46 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 29):
Literature, art, culture, politics, the rights/privileges other nations enjoy... but sure as hell... they could all spout off about how the West was corrupt

Iraq was the birthplace of all of those, maybe they didnt know about the political and cultural systems of the west, but we Americans are quite ignorant about the rest of the world and frankly dont give a shit either, so by saying the Iraqis are rather uneducated isnt hardly anything to note since Iraq is a 3rd world country, yet it is even more shameful that a country like the US has such a good number of people who live under a self-imposed ignorance.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 29):
It is the people who are enemies of the US. And why? I mean really... when you look at the life of an average Saudi Arabian, has the US really committed some great injustice against them. I'd say... no.

The truth is, their governments are far more guilty.

and we support those governments, that is why.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
copaair737
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:09 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 29):
Hundreds of years ago in Europe, the church kept control of the people by saying, "All of your problems are a trial by god. Live a moral life, work hard, don't complain and you will be rewarded by god, when you die." The same is done by governments today, "Don't look at us! We're not to blame for your poor living conditions! America [or whoever your enemy is] is to blame for your lot in life! Blame them! They're the infidels!"

Switch Europe to Saudi Arabia and church to Royal Family and you have the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:18 pm

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 31):
Switch Europe to Saudi Arabia and church to Royal Family and you have the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

lol... hence my comment:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 29):
The same is done by governments today, "Don't look at us! We're not to blame for your poor living conditions! America [or whoever your enemy is] is to blame for your lot in life! Blame them! They're the infidels!"

But seriously Copa, do you understand why I don't like the guy? I'm not saying we ought to invade the country... I'm just saying... when your weapons are being given to people trying to kill me... well... you're not high on my RU list!

-UH60
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flymia
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:37 pm

Saudi Arabia and Egypt dont support to get rid of Israel and call the Holocaust fake or support terrorism and hate the United States and its allies. It is pretty easy to see why we dont want this guy in the US. Of course he has the right to go to the UN but thats it why else would we want him here.
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Arsenal@LHR
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:34 am

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 19):
Yet the US welcomes the Saudi Royals into America with great hospitality.

It makes no sense to me.
Iran may or may not cause things, but there is evidence of Saudis meddling in things, yet the Iranians are punished.

I'm suprised you asked this question i thought you'd might have a better idea. The reality is that US foreign policy is very selective, the "rogue states" are hand picked by the neo-cons, while the "allies" list includes unsavioury nations such as Pakistan and Saudi Arabia (just two examples, there are more). Simply because US policy abroad is based on national interest and coporate greed........ freedom, democracy and human rights are petty side issues which go out the window when power and influence are concerned. Hypocrisy is at the heart of US foreign policy no matter which way you look at it, and this radiates to the American public. Witness yesterdays vicious verbal attack on Ahmadinejad by a mob at a university.
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copaair737
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:44 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 32):
But seriously Copa, do you understand why I don't like the guy? I'm not saying we ought to invade the country... I'm just saying... when your weapons are being given to people trying to kill me... well... you're not high on my RU list!

I don't think its a question whether or not you like him or not. That's your choice. I'm pointing out the inconsistencies with foreign policy.

If we are all about regime change, and this democracy in the Middle East, why is Saudi Arabia supposed to be our ally?
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cfalk
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:54 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 1):
Totally understandable question...I guess the difference is that Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc don't try to export Islamic revolution, don't fund terrorist groups like Hezbollah, don't provide explosives and supplies to the insurgency in Iraq, aren't developing nuclear weapons, and don't have Americna blood on their hands, etc...Hope this helps explain it...

That's it in a nutshell.

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 6):
So if Ahmedinejad came out, and renounced all his remarks and sided with America, would the criticism stop?

I guess it worked for Khaddafi.

Exactly. Libya stopped trying to export trouble outside their borders, and stopped developing weapons which could fall into the wrong hands. In return, we made peace with him and are now doing business with Libya.

If Iran were to do the same thing, I can guarantee you that relations would be re-established within a month, and both Iran and the US would benefit from that.
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MSYtristar
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:01 am

Quoting Arsenal@LHR (Reply 34):
Witness yesterdays vicious verbal attack on Ahmadinejad by a mob at a university.

An event which I am very embarrassed ever took place, but it is what it is. But in all fairness, Ahmadinejad was mobbed by Bollinger, not so much by the students.

Quoting Arsenal@LHR (Reply 34):
Hypocrisy is at the heart of US foreign policy no matter which way you look at it, and this radiates to the American public

Unfortunately, the public has to live with the consequences of inept and/or marginal leadership. If people in the Middle East hate Americans, believe me, that hate starts at the top and works its way down. Too bad too, because most people in this county are more even keeled and have a more objective view of the world than those in D.C could ever hope to have.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
What there is evidence of, however, is the millions coming from Saudi Arabia supporting Sunni insurgents.

Isn't that the truth!

Quoting Copaair737 (Thread starter):
why do people criticize him so much

Because off the off-the-wall comments which he seems to regulary make, I would think. I'd imagine most people think of him as a nutcase. He's always in the spotlight and always seemingly saying something controversial, even though I don't see how people can take half of what the man says seriously.
 
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:55 am

Quoting Copaair737 (Thread starter):
Egypt is another oppressive regime

Egypt is NOT under an oppressive regime, it in fact is a democracy to a very wide extent, which means a democratically elected parliament with many parties, a democratically elected president, a considerable freedom of the media, personal freedom in many ways. True, a restrictive police, and doubtful methods of the government in many ways. BUT you may realize that the improving democracy has brought about more restrictive laws in many respects.
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"Oppressive" is what you can say, to some extent, about Muammar al-Khaddafi, the state-leader of Libya, and about the leadership in Syria.
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Quoting RJpieces (Reply 1):
like Hezbollah, don't provide explosives and supplies to the insurgency in Iraq,

Saudi Arabia is financing both Hamas and some of the rebel groups in Iraq (some of the insurgencies, if you prefer this word)
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Quoting LTU932 (Reply 20):
How can Rafsanjani and Khatami influence that council?

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While Khatami never had much influence, Rafsanjani via "links" has a lot of influence. That he lost the elections does not mean much. He apparently is second in line behind Khamenei and is to become Supreme Leader.
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Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
I think you need to speak with our friend UH60. He can tell you about Iran meddling in Iraqi affairs.

For which he has no evidence as well. What there is evidence of, however, is the millions coming from Saudi Arabia supporting Sunni insurgents.

Quite true, BUT there also are Shi'ite rebel groups who hardly get money from Riyadh. Evidence ? Proof ? That is exactly what those involved try to make impossible.
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GDB
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:22 am

A fair question indeed.
Yes Saudis were 15 of the 19 hijackers, but they wanted their own government gone too.
Saudi did for many years, export it's own nasty brand of Islamism.
But the operative word here, is 'blowback'.

Many cite Sept 11th, as the ultimate 'blowback' against perceptions, real or imagined, about the US and the Mid East.

But the Saudi extremism exports caused 'blowback' to them, first in the form of Sept 11, which was in part done to drive a wedge between the West and Saudi, then at home, after 2003, they could no longer deny (or as before, blame it on hapless ex-pats), the Islamist terror on their own soil.

Then the removal, in 1953, of an elected Iranian leader, by the UK and US, 26 years later caused 'blowback' in the hostile form of the Iranian revolution.

But at the heart of this, the Saudis do not seek direct interference in other Mid East States, are not deliberately funding, by government order, terror groups, are not after WMD's.
The Saudi regime seeks, whatever our differences, a friendly relationship with the West.
 
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:26 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):

For which he has no evidence as well. What there is evidence of, however, is the millions coming from Saudi Arabia supporting Sunni insurgents.



Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 37):

Isn't that the truth!

It's interesting to note that looking at the Summer Surge, our greatest inroads have been made in the Sunni communities. We have found the most success in getting them to come to the table, and especially getting them to work with the US. If you look at Ramadi and Fallujah - two cities that were the most dangerous places on earth, only 8 months ago - they are remarkably different. And why is that? Because the local religious leaders are exerting pressure to end the violence, and we've finally been able to help establish stable local governments.

It's odd that we can find success at the local level, when the nation level is so dysfunctional.


ANYWAY... the evidence suggests that Alireza is wrong. When you look at the situation, it's the Shi'ites who are still hesitant to come to the table. They are the ones who are still going out there planting IED/VBIEDs, sniping, etc... And they are certainly NOT supported by Saudi Arabia!!!

However, they do enjoy strong support from Iran. Kinda goes to everything I was saying earlier, doesn't it!?  Wink

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:50 am

Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 14):
I think we should ignore next time he makes an outlandish statement.

If we as a world are concerned about Iran we should focus less on Ahmadinejad and more on the the Supreme Leader.

Much the best idea, not that you will get a great deal out of the SL, but he makes the decisions. Abusing Ahmad, might just lessen his unpopularity at home. After all, if the Americans take the trouble to abuse him, he cannot be all bad will be the logic. He is almost certain to self destruct at or even before the next elections.

I understand your worry about weapons, UH60, but why has it taken until the last few weeks - it seems - to put in border controls? The same goes for the complaints about Syria and its border. Yes, I know it is a long border, but it was a long border when Iraq was invaded. And the most obvious thing about knocking off Saddam was that his demolition would leave a vacuum and into vacuums are drawn all sorts of things you might not like. IF the Iranians are sending weapons, that does not excuse them but the coalition of the willing has effectively been complicit in its own problems by failing to control the borders.

Maybe Rummie was to blame, but .........!!! What would Powell's plans have been had anyone asked him on the military side? I suggest not leaving the borders open.
 
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:03 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 41):
I suggest not leaving the borders open.

Easier said than done. Plus, you need two willing governments to keep a border secure.
 
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:04 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 41):

I understand your worry about weapons, UH60, but why has it taken until the last few weeks - it seems - to put in border controls? The same goes for the complaints about Syria and its border.

Well we have been on the borders for some time... but you have to understand it's a numbers game. Troops on the boarder means, less troops in the cities. So yeah, it has a lot to do with Mr Rumsfeld. He thought we could fight the war on the cheap. Every serious military leader said an invasion would need over 300,000 troops, but Rumsfeld knew better.  Yeah sure

Although, btw, the Syrian border has been under relative control for some time. We have much more success along that border than the Iranian boarder. Aside from there being a considerable size difference, the Syrian border is also more remote.... and well... lets just say the people sneaking across the Syrian border are usually more dumb in their tactics!

A lot of natural trade occurs on the Iraq-Iranian border, and it means setting up check points, vehicle inspections, etc... This in conjunction with guarding the rest of the border against smugglers.

**sigh** so much to do, with so little people to do it with.  Sad

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
N1120A
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:21 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 22):
fell into Iraqi hands by accident?

Or from gun runners.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 22):

Ahh, yes, Alireza knows more than those on the ground.

Or is more willing to speak the truth

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 20):

How can Rafsanjani and Khatami influence that council? Hell, AFAIK Rafsanjani lost the elections against Mahmaniac and is considered someone who prefers to avoid any conflict with the US, like his successor Khatami, and unlike Ahmadinejad.

What do you mean how? Rafsanjani is one of the most hated men in Iran, yet wields some of the most power because of his economic clout and influence in the creation of the Council of Guardians. Further, Khatami, in his time as president, gained influence as well. The Council of Guardians makes foreign policy decisions in conjunction with Khameni.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 40):
It's interesting to note that looking at the Summer Surge, our greatest inroads have been made in the Sunni communities

Oh really? Is that why NPR was reporting an increase in violence in the Sunni communities?

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 40):
the evidence suggests that Alireza is wrong.

What evidence?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
baroque
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:30 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 43):
**sigh** so much to do, with so little people to do it with. Sad

Them's the breaks as they say, and those problems go with the territory of conquest. It is just astonishing that Blair at least did not know about the woes of the UK in trying to guard the NW Territory borders for far too long and basically failing to do so in spite of being pretty serious in terms of troop deployments.

Then again, I feel sure Powell passed on a heck of a lot more advice than if you break it you own it and surely he told them what the problems would have been.

I guess Rummie replied it could all be done by satellite and UAVs. Which assumes that the opponents cannot find counter strategies, always a foolish assumption!

Sigh indeed!!
 
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LTU932
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:39 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 44):
What do you mean how? Rafsanjani is one of the most hated men in Iran, yet wields some of the most power because of his economic clout and influence in the creation of the Council of Guardians. Further, Khatami, in his time as president, gained influence as well. The Council of Guardians makes foreign policy decisions in conjunction with Khameni.

So, despite both Rafsanjani and Khatami having been non-confrontational during their presidential terms, they may now be partly responsible for the current tensions between the US and Iran?
 
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:48 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 46):
So, despite both Rafsanjani and Khatami having been non-confrontational during their presidential terms, they may now be partly responsible for the current tensions between the US and Iran?

Not as confrontational as this clown, but they did not stop supporting terrorists like Hezbollah and Hamas.

Like I said, if they cut their ties to terrorists, and agreed to full IAEA inspections, you'd see a new US Embassy in Tehran and an Iranian one in Washington.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:52 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 47):
Like I said, if they cut their ties to terrorists, and agreed to full IAEA inspections, you'd see a new US Embassy in Tehran and an Iranian one in Washington.

That's very true.
 
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RE: A Question For Those Against Ahmedinejad

Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:07 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 46):
they may now be partly responsible for the current tensions between the US and Iran?

They aren't responsible. The Council of Guardians backed Iranian envoy offered

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 47):
but they did not stop supporting terrorists like Hezbollah and Hamas.

The 2003 offer included pulling all support from Hamas and transitioning Hezbollah fully to political party only, which the US rejected.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 47):
and agreed to full IAEA inspections

Iran has already offered that

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 47):
you'd see a new US Embassy in Tehran and an Iranian one in Washington.

If the Bush Administration would have allowed it to happen, that would already be the case.
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