Seattle Ops
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Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:31 pm

 
LASoctoberB6
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:10 pm

uh..okay then, someone obviously has some mental problems to work out..
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Cactus739
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:26 pm

Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Reply 1):
uh..okay then, someone obviously has some mental problems to work out..

uh, she's dead.... ain't no working those out.... duh.
You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
 
Bridogger6
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:55 pm

Yeah, my friend from work was trying to text me the news of this when it had actually happened but they were so vague and disjointed I didn't think much of it! People really do lose it sometimes when they miss their flights, but killing yourself? Wow, that's pretty extreme...
 
LASoctoberB6
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:18 pm

Quoting Cactus739 (Reply 2):

uh, she's dead.... ain't no working those out.... duh.

it was supposed to be had... duh
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SA7700
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:41 pm

Okay, she was agitated and irate, but apart from that why was she still handcuffed in the holding cell?
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
ltbewr
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:18 pm

She somehow killed herself trying to get out of the handcuffs. I suspect there should be an investigation of how this arrest went very wrong. Probably she had mental health problems, that led to her being arrested in the first place.. She has a husband, the son of a NY City administrative official, I believe Consumer Affairs, who I suspect will file a big time lawsuit against the airport/PHX police forces for her death
 
chris133
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:00 pm

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 5):
but apart from that why was she still handcuffed in the holding cell?

Well if she was in a mental state to kill herself trying to get handcuffs off, what other things could she have done if she hadn't been handcuffed. The last time i checked airport "holding cells" are not the same kind of damage and escape proof ones you would see in a police station. If she was not handcuffed there was probably a significant risk that she might have escaped or injured someone else as well.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 6):
She somehow killed herself trying to get out of the handcuffs. I suspect there should be an investigation of how this arrest went very wrong. Probably she had mental health problems, that led to her being arrested in the first place.. She has a husband, the son of a NY City administrative official, I believe Consumer Affairs, who I suspect will file a big time lawsuit against the airport/PHX police forces for her death

Other than maybe taking an officer away from patrolling the airport to sit for hours and watch someone already in custody i fail to see how the police did anything wrong with the arrest. Why are we "looking" to blame someone for this woman's actions. While her death is tragic (and my sympathies go out to the family) why is she not to blame for her actions i.e becoming irate and needing to be restrained and then trying to escape and killing herself in the process. For those that say she may have had mental issues (that has yet to be determined if she did) why did someone who actually knows her and her conditions not travel with her to prevent this from ever happening.
 
Thorben
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:24 pm

Why did she have to be arrested in the first place?
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
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chrisnh
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:49 pm

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 5):
Okay, she was agitated and irate, but apart from that why was she still handcuffed in the holding cell?

That is an excellent question. Aside from how 'unstable' and 'agitated' this woman was, I cannot fathom the need for redundancy here. This is the most obvious catalyst for a lawsuit I think I've ever seen.

Chris in NH
 
jwenting
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:03 pm

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 9):
That is an excellent question.

Violent behaviour. Officers unable to get her to turn so they can get them off.

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 9):
This is the most obvious catalyst for a lawsuit I think I've ever seen.

Typically American reaction. Use anything as an excuse to sue someone.
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Thorben
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:07 pm

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 10):
Typically American reaction. Use anything as an excuse to sue someone.

No, typical American police behaviour, do what you can to escalate the situation. A pax is denied to her flight and is angry about it, but instead of calming her down they arrest her and throw her handcuffed in a cell.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
Thorben
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:25 pm

Being angry and running up and down the gate area? (I assume "running" in the sense of fast walking). Completely understandable when you're having a stressful journey and have to wait longer than originally expected.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
n1786b
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:28 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 11):

No, typical American police behaviour, do what you can to escalate the situation. A pax is denied to her flight and is angry about it, but instead of calming her down they arrest her and throw her handcuffed in a cell.

I'd like to see you go down to any airport in Europe and throw a fit and see how the local police and security react. I have seen irate passengers being lead away in handcuffs at CDG. I've been an irate passenger before, but nobody arrested me.

First of all, how do you know the circumstances that lead up to her being arrested? Was she warned, were efforts made to calm her down, was she rebooked on the next flight (yes)? How do you know that no effort was made to calm her down? What do we know except what was written in the press...

You know, I'd tend to trust the judgment of the police officers at the airport confronting and dealing with this irate passenger rather than some A.net member sitting behind their keyboard in Germany judging their actions as "typical American police behavior."

-n1786b
 
Thorben
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:34 pm

Quoting N1786b (Reply 15):

I'm not going to the defend the German police here - leave alone the French - but I doubt they'd arrest a person that is walking up and down and saying some words of anger over a denied boarding.

Quoting N1786b (Reply 15):
'd tend to trust the judgment of the police officers

I always thought the Germans were the ones who would blindly follow authorities. Guess I was wrong.
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NWA742
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:43 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 14):
Being angry and running up and down the gate area?

If you're being disruptive at the gate of a flight you're not allowed to be on, that's more than enough to be arrested for. Not only is it a security risk, it's disorderly conduct.

And remember, what if that means she was actually running up and down the gate itself? That's a major security risk. Someone at AUS was recently arrested because he missed his flight and decided to take it upon himself to use an emergency exit, walk out on the tarmac, climb the gate stairs, and board that way.

But hey, it's all okay. He missed his flight, so he should be allowed to do whatever he pleases.  

Quoting Thorben (Reply 14):
I assume "running" in the sense of fast walking

  

You weren't there.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 14):
Completely understandable when you're having a stressful journey and have to wait longer than originally expected.

Oh really? So I guess whenever my flight is late or if I have to wait longer than I would like, I should be allowed to act like a complete jackass in public.



Quoting Thorben (Reply 16):
but I doubt they'd arrest a person that is walking up and down and saying some words of anger over a denied boarding.

Yes, becausing "walking up and down and saying some words of anger" is all she apparentely did here.



Quoting Thorben (Reply 16):
I always thought the Germans were the ones who would blindly follow authorities. Guess I was wrong.

Maybe - perhaps the Germans are the ones to blindly follow idiots.............hmmmmmmmmmm.


I'll also point out that if it turns out that this woman was mentally ill and lost her life because of that, than I feel very sorry for her. But if it was just stupidity.............sorry.





-NWA742

[Edited 2007-09-30 16:46:29]
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Femme
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:56 am

Poor woman may have had a heart attack, stress is sometimes all it takes.....Tragic situation

Claire
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TheCol
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:54 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 11):



Quoting Thorben (Reply 12):

Get your head out of the sand. Its obvious that the women was a complete nutcase.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:34 pm

Quoting Chris133 (Reply 7):
Other than maybe taking an officer away from patrolling the airport to sit for hours and watch someone already in custody i fail to see how the police did anything wrong with the arrest.

Welcome to one of the dirty little secrets of law enforcement. Sometimes officers get pulled off patrol to go be glorified babysitters. So stop bitching when it takes 30 minutes for someone to get to the scene of your fender bender

Quoting Thorben (Reply 11):
No, typical American police behaviour, do what you can to escalate the situation. A pax is denied to her flight and is angry about it, but instead of calming her down they arrest her and throw her handcuffed in a cell.

So how many times have you been "wrongly" arrested and for what? If you throw enough of a hissy in the terminal, you will be handcuffed and led away. Welcome to the post 9/11 world.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:46 pm

Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Reply 1):
uh..okay then, someone obviously has some mental problems to work out..

Sounds like the type of hysteria I've seen New York women do a couple of times in the past. Lots of histrionics, lots of fast talk, lots of accent.
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Maverick623
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:04 pm

Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Reply 1):
someone obviously has some mental problems

Bingo. All this nonsense of how the police responded to the situation is just that. This woman was quite clearly a nutcase if she managed to strangle herself with handcuffs.

And to the German poster... you were probably 9,000 miles away at the time it happened. I've talked to people that were right there. She was way beyond being calmed down, hence the handcuffs and jail cell.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Doona
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:08 pm

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 18):
Welcome to one of the dirty little secrets of law enforcement.

Hey, if it prevents mentally disturbed people from killing themselves in holding cells, I wouldn't call it a "dirty little secret", IMO it would be an important part of the job.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):
She was way beyond being calmed down, hence the handcuffs and jail cell.

Then she should have been sedated. A person died, and if it could have been prevented it should have been.

Cheers
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:46 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 11):
No, typical American police behaviour, do what you can to escalate the situation.

Typical Euro reaction - assume that the American police are monsters and are always in the wrong.

Gosh, if only we were all as enlightened as you...  sarcastic 
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
OB1504
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:53 pm

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 15):
Maybe - perhaps the Germans are the ones to blindly follow idiots.............hmmmmmmmmmm.

Everything in your post was spot-on, but this was a little uncalled for.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:35 pm

This story has got more than usual attention here in NYC for the connections between the woman who died and her mother in law being a known NYC official (Public Advocate). Her behavior may have been in part due that the next day there was to be an 'open house' for their million $+ townhouse her and her husband have for sale and wanted to be there for that.
From what we know of this woman's behavior at PHX, the police/security most probably made the right decision to arrest her. Still, this is a serious problem for the PHX police. Something went very wrong and may have been prevented. The Coroner will do their investigation to see if somehow she choked herself trying to get out of her handcuffs. The PHX police will have to be investigated to look at their procedures to see if they could have done something to prevent this woman's death. Nobody should ever die if arrested and the police could have prevented that.
 
NWA742
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 23):
Everything in your post was spot-on, but this was a little uncalled for.

Perhaps, but remember he's the one who wants to sit there and generalize, so maybe he deserves a taste of his own medicine.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
rfields5421
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:35 am

Quoting Doona (Reply 21):
Then she should have been sedated.

Forcably administered chemicals to cause stupor or unconciousness against her will by non-medically trained people?

Are you kidding? Is that allowed in your country - because it isn't in the US.

From the news media reports the woman clearly needed to be arrested. Her behavior made her a threat to other passengers and a risk to aircraft safety.

Yes, she was upset at missing a flight - anyone would be. But we all know there are limits to what is acceptable behavior.

"She kept punching. She kept screaming. She kept kicking."

She wasn't left along for very long - only a few minutes.

Usually in such a situation they give the person a little while alone to calm down and get their emotions under control. Then a decision about moving them to a jail, or even releasing them is made.

EDIT - more - better detail

http://www.kpho.com/news/14243858/detail.html

She was not in a "cell" she was in an office.

She missed a once hourly 96nm regional flight.

She was going to Tuscon to enter an alcohol treatment center.

[Edited 2007-10-01 21:40:39]
 
Doona
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:47 am

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 26):
Forcably administered chemicals to cause stupor or unconciousness against her will by non-medically trained people?

Are you kidding? Is that allowed in your country - because it isn't in the US.

Yeah, because I think that having untrained people administering drugs left and right is a good idea. No, what I meant was that perhaps having somebody around who actually is trained, and has the authority to be able to sedate people who are quite clearly in need of it. Especially in a large airport like PHX, pax freaking out and/or displaying dangerous behaviour is probably not unheard of.

Cheers
Mats
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
geedo
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:49 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 22):
Quoting Thorben (Reply 11):
No, typical American police behaviour, do what you can to escalate the situation.

Typical Euro reaction - assume that the American police are monsters and are always in the wrong.

Gosh, if only we were all as enlightened as you...

Agreed. Glad everyone has us figured out. They all sing a different tune, though, when they need our help, don't they?


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rfields5421
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:52 am

Right or wrong - there are significant laws in the US which make sedation of a patient outside a hospital without their permission or that of a relative illegal.

It normally requires a court order issued by a judge.

She could have been transported to a hospital, evaluated by an ER doctor, have him recommend a consult by a shrink and the shrink admit her to a mental ward. Only then could she be sedated legally.

But the doctor will have to justify his actions to a court within either 24 or 72 hours depending upon the jurisdiction.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:32 am

The video was released by Phoenix PD, you can view it at CNN.com

I think it quite clearly shows that the woman had problems, and that the police acted very approprately.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
AirCop
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:54 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 6):
I suspect will file a big time lawsuit against the airport/PHX police forces for her death

They already have hired a big time Arizona attorney who won a couple of million dollar lawsuits against Sheriff Joe.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 11):
A pax is denied to her flight and is angry about it, but instead of calming her down they arrest her and throw her handcuffed in a cell.

Not exactly what happen here, you might want to read the article on azcentral.com. Remained handcuffed in the holding cell perhaps she was still a danger to herself and I believe its policy to leave the handcuffs on until they are transported downtown.

What no one as asked; why was she traveling ALONE. Here we have a person with mental health and substance abuse issues going to a clinic, and no one from the family thought it was important to travel with her as a sign of moral support, to make sure she got there etc.
 
NWA742
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:54 am

Quoting Doona (Reply 27):
No, what I meant was that perhaps having somebody around who actually is trained, and has the authority to be able to sedate people who are quite clearly in need of it. Especially in a large airport like PHX, pax freaking out and/or displaying dangerous behaviour is probably not unheard of.

You have seriously got to be kidding..........

A. You're STILL trying to pin blame on authorities here. You're actually still trying to fault someone or something else.
B. Gee...........a trained person that has the authority to sedate someone if they need it? What's next, Doona? Should PHX have a comedian on staff full-time in case I get mad over crappy airport food or a delayed flight?

Get real.




-NWA742

[Edited 2007-10-04 20:10:51]
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
AirCop
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:01 am

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 29):
She could have been transported to a hospital, evaluated by an ER doctor, have him recommend a consult by a shrink and the shrink admit her to a mental ward. Only then could she be sedated legally.

You are kidding aren't you? The fastest way to get her evaluated in Phoenix, would be to transport her to the county jail, taking her to the ER would take hours.. I wonder what the passenger sitting next to her, thought about her on the flight west, was she acting strangely on the plane?
 
WellHung
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:06 am

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 15):
So I guess whenever my flight is late or if I have to wait longer than I would like, I should be allowed to act like a complete jackass in public.

Well, you do it on the without any provocation on the tubular interwebs, so why not in real life?

Quoting Doona (Reply 27):

When you're dealing with folks who take pleasure in pointing out people who they believe 'deserve' to die, you won't find much of a compelling argument.
 
NWA742
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting WellHung (Reply 34):
Well, you do it on the without any provocation on the tubular interwebs, so why not in real life?

Wow - it's been awhile since your last obsessive little jab. Good to see you back at it...........keep up your battle!



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:22 pm

Here's a bit more info...and if you're looking to point fingers to hold someone accountable for her death, it has to be squarely at her...and HER HUSBAND. Read on...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21148192/

Gotbaum, the 45-year-old stepdaughter-in-law of New York's public advocate, was arrested Sept. 28 for disorderly conduct after she was kept off a connecting flight that was to bring her to Tucson, where she was set to enter a treatment center to confront her alcoholism.

Her husband, Noah Gotbaum, exchanged several phone calls with his wife during her two-hour layover at Sky Harbor International Airport, an attorney for her family said.

He husband called emergency dispatchers before learning of her death to say she was in a deep depression and suicidal, according to the police report.

"They're not dealing with some lout who's just drank too much on an airplane," the report quoted Noah Gotbaum as saying. "That's not what's going on here."


Ok Noah, tell me - WHY WEREN'T YOU TRAVELING WITH YOUR DEPRESSED, SUICIDAL WIFE?

If, God-forbid, my wife ever needed drug or alcohol rehab - I AM NOT SENDING HER OFF ALONE.

There's no excuse - short of being held at gunpoint or in a coma - that should have kept Noah Gotbaum from flying with his wife.

If he did, odds are she'd be alive today.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:24 pm

I can just imagine her standing in the gate area yelling, "I'm not a terrorist." So can you. Just close your eyes and imagine Fran Drescher throwing a tantrum while screaming, "I'm not a terrorist. I'm a Long Island Jewish Princess! Why are you DOING this to me? (Snort, snort, whine, moan) But, I'm NOT a terrorist! Noah! I'm not a terrorist!"
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AirCop
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:51 pm

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 37):
I can just imagine her standing in the gate area yelling, "I'm not a terrorist."

Nah, its Phoenix, if she didn't say in Spanish, no one understood her.
Thanks EA CO AS for making my point.
 
wukka
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:17 am

I'm not going to say that the police did anything wrong except for not calling the paramedics once they had her in cuffs and restrained. That may come up as an issue in this whole mess.

People that are acting that messed up could very well have a serious medical condition that needs immediate attention.

I've seen dehydration turn people into the pope.

Someone with a medical background should have gotten some vitals on this lady.

That said, if she checked out ok, then by all means book her for at least a disorderly.

It sounds like this lady really needed a traveling companion based on the media reports.

Sad, really.
We can agree to disagree.
 
lobster
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:35 am

Quoting Wukka (Reply 39):
I'm not going to say that the police did anything wrong except for not calling the paramedics once they had her in cuffs and restrained

Why?? Because some passenger was acting completely out of control? If the cops had to call EMS for every person put in restraints who was acting like that, the EMS system would grind to a halt in a spit second. She was just another douche bag the cops had to deal with that day and they did nothing wrong. She's at fault for her own death. No one but herself tried to get out of the restraints. That's Darwinism right there folks.
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:02 am

You can't take a lifelong New York woman out of her closed, self-centered environment and expect her to survive. Christ Alrighty! You might as well have dropped her in the middle of Siberia or Mason City, Iowa.

She was probably confused by all the courtesy and good manners. Maybe she was overwhelmed by the all the beige that predominates the Phoenix skyline. Maybe she was amazed that there were places where she could buy a hotdog for less than $5.

Whatever the case, only she and her husband are responsible for her death. And I'm willing to bet he's to stupid to realize it.
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
Maverick623
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:03 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 38):
Nah, its Phoenix, if she didn't say in Spanish, no one understood her.

You have no idea how true that is.  banghead 

Quoting Lobster (Reply 40):
That's Darwinism right there folks.

Finally, someone else gets it!
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
bok269
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RE: Irate Dies After Being Arrested!

Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:24 am

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 5):
Okay, she was agitated and irate, but apart from that why was she still handcuffed in the holding cell?

I was watching a documentary on TV about the Las Vegas jail and their use of a device caused a restraint chair. If a suspect becomes irate and violent, they handcuff him/her behind the back, shackle their legs, and strap them to the chair. They are then placed in a room until they can calm down. A suspect being restrained, much like this women was, allows them to focus on why they are in the situation that they are in, rather than thinking about thrashing around. Handcuffs are used to protect officers and suspects if a threat is believed to be present. The officers felt a theat was present, and restrained her appropriately.

Quoting Doona (Reply 21):

Then she should have been sedated. A person died, and if it could have been prevented it should have been.

Cheers
Mats



Quoting Doona (Reply 27):
Yeah, because I think that having untrained people administering drugs left and right is a good idea. No, what I meant was that perhaps having somebody around who actually is trained, and has the authority to be able to sedate people who are quite clearly in need of it. Especially in a large airport like PHX, pax freaking out and/or displaying dangerous behaviour is probably not unheard of.

Most pax freaking out don't need to be sedated. They get mad and calm down. This women clearly had issues that were beyond the norm.
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