747400sp
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Why No High Speed Diesel For Ships?

Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:05 pm

I notest that most cargo ships has low speed diesel and most passenger ships has medium speed diesel, could a high speed diesel engine be made big enough to power a ship?
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Why No High Speed Diesel For Ships?

Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:38 am

What is the difference between the three?
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Why No High Speed Diesel For Ships?

Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:31 am

A little leg work on your part, and you could have easily found the answer.

I know wiki is a joke when it comes to credibility, but this sounds fairly accurate:

Quote:
The size of the different types of engines is an important factor in selecting what will be installed in a new ship. Slow speed two-stroke engines are much taller, but the area needed, length and width, is smaller than that needed for four-stroke medium speed diesel engines. As space higher up in passenger ships and ferries is at a premium, these ships tend to use multiple medium speed engines resulting in a longer, lower engine room than that needed for two-stroke diesel engines. Multiple engine installations also give more redundancy in the event of mechanical failure of one or more engines and greater efficiency over a wider range of operating conditions.

As modern ships' propellers are at their most efficient at the operating speed of most slow speed diesel engines, ships with these engines do not generally need gearboxes. Usually such propulsion systems consist of either one or two propeller shafts each with its own direct drive engine. Ships propelled by medium or high speed diesel engines may have one or two (sometimes more) propellers, commonly with one or more engines driving each propeller shaft through a gearbox. Where more than one engine is geared to a single shaft, each engine will most likely drive through a clutch, allowing engines not being used to be disconnected from the gearbox while others keep running. This arrangement lets maintenance be carried out while under way, even far from port.

As you can see, the diesel engine of a modern cargo ship is quite large:



...so there is your answer.

-UH60
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Flighty
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RE: Why No High Speed Diesel For Ships?

Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:01 pm

Ships have become very efficient. I read that today's super-cargo ships have 1 engine and 1 prop, since it's more streamlined + fuel saving that way. So, they do whatever saves fuel. Look for your answer there.
 
747400sp
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RE: Why No High Speed Diesel For Ships?

Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:42 am

There are some cruise ships have slow speed diesel. For example Royal Caribbean Sovereign Of Sea class and Carnival Holiday class have slow speed diesel. If you ever get a chance to hear these ships in a cruise ship port where they base, you can hear there engine for about a mile, just like a container ship.
 
L-188
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RE: Why No High Speed Diesel For Ships?

Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:11 am

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
could a high speed diesel engine be made big enough to power a ship?

Yes, and for proof I turn to the brits, who in their race for a high speed diesel engine, went to Napier who in their sick and twisted engineering minds came up with the Deltec engine as a high speed engine.


What you had in this engine was 6 opposed pistons arranged in a triangle or delta shape, There was a crankshaft at each corner of the triangle and each of those there driven by 2 of the 6 pistons. You could have multiple banks pistons I don't know what the largest one one, but I think 18 cylinder engines where not uncommon. The three crankshafts then drove a single shaft for power.

http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/images/ClenSection.jpg
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N231YE
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RE: Why No High Speed Diesel For Ships?

Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:09 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2):

If I am not mistaken, the photo you provided is of the world's largest engine (a marine diesel, obviously), built by a company in Korea. I forgot the horsepower figures, but it was some double-digitX1000hp.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):

Wow, I knew Napier had a fetish for strange arrangements, but this one by far outdoes everything I've seen so far.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Why No High Speed Diesel For Ships?

Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:47 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
Yes, and for proof I turn to the brits, who in their race for a high speed diesel engine, went to Napier who in their sick and twisted engineering minds came up with the Deltec engine as a high speed engine.

Napier was in a class by themselves when it came to goofball engineering. However it must be said that the Napier Sabre became a good solid engine after its teething period. I have heard that the Deltic is a good engine when it's running right.

Ya know, this subject is really interesting so let's hijack this thread.

I've just finished reading Clay Blair's two part history of the Uboat war and there were an uncommon number of wartime patrols that got scrubbed because of engine failures in the german boats. Apparently the engines were built by MAN or Germania Werft

In the beginning our fleet subs in the Pacific were equipped with the notoriously unreliable Hooven-Owens-Rentschler diesel engine, a double acting design which was shelved in favor of the Fairbanks Morse opposed piston diesel and the Winton/GM 2 stroke diesel.

I've toured a powerhouse in southern Iowa which has F-M opposed piston diesels, and i understand they're still being made.



http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/diesel/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposed_piston_engine
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
L-188
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RE: Why No High Speed Diesel For Ships?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:28 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 7):
I've toured a powerhouse in southern Iowa which has F-M opposed piston diesels, and i understand they're still being made.

I believe they are alongside the Alco 251 engine, which was a really common railroad engine back in the 1950's.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 7):
Apparently the engines were built by MAN or Germania Werft

In the beginning our fleet subs in the Pacific were equipped with the notoriously unreliable Hooven-Owens-Rentschler diesel engine, a double acting design which was shelved in favor of the Fairbanks Morse opposed piston diesel

It is amazing how much cleaner a US subs engine room looked compared to a german one. A product of having the crankshaft at the top of the motor of the FM engines.

Still you got to love those mans with the external push rods and rockerarms moving up and down.
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jetmech
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RE: Why No High Speed Diesel For Ships?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:00 am

Quoting N231YE (Reply 6):
forgot the horsepower figures, but it was some double-digitX1000hp.

Well, according to this link, the Wartsila-Sulzer RTA96-C puts out 108,920hp (81,254 kw) and 5,608,312 ft-lb (7,604,871 Nm) of torque at 102rpm. Furthermore, "the cylinder bore is just under 38" (96.52cm) and the stroke is just over 98" (248.92 cm). Each cylinder displaces 111,143 cubic inches (1820 liters) and produces 7780 horsepower (5,804 kw). Total displacement comes out to 1,556,002 cubic inches (25,480 liters) for the fourteen cylinder version."

Regards, JetMech

[Edited 2007-10-06 04:01:51]
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MCOflyer
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RE: Why No High Speed Diesel For Ships?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:51 pm

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 4):
Royal Caribbean Sovereign Of Sea class

Very true. I live by Port Canaveral and can hear them from the restaurant facing the Cruise Terminal.

Hunter
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
N231YE
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RE: Why No High Speed Diesel For Ships?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:45 pm

Quoting JetMech (Reply 9):

Damn! My guess was wayyyyy off!  smile 
 
Dougloid
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RE: Why No High Speed Diesel For Ships?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:35 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 8):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 7):
I've toured a powerhouse in southern Iowa which has F-M opposed piston diesels, and i understand they're still being made.

I believe they are alongside the Alco 251 engine, which was a really common railroad engine back in the 1950's.

The powerhouse is the Lamoni City Utilities plant and they've got 5 F-M diesels. A lot of city utility plants were built here before electricification got really big in the late thirties. They're often maintained for standby service in the summer and there are a wildly eclectic bunch of engines of all types. The power plant in Greenfield Iowa has a pair of Alco V-12s.

The Winterset City Utilities has a big Cooper-Bessemer and the only operating Nordberg radial diesel in the world.

When I worked in Winterset and it was a hot morning and I saw a plume of dirty black smoke coming from the utility plant I knew that the call had come in from Midwest Energy "Get 'em running and online in 2 hours" and they'd cranked up the Nordberg.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
bhill
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RE: Why No High Speed Diesel For Ships?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:15 pm

Errr...so what is the use of that huge engine in the picture? Is it installed in a ship or is running a generator set?

Thanks
Carpe Pices
 
Dougloid
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RE: Why No High Speed Diesel For Ships?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:53 pm

Quoting Bhill (Reply 13):
Errr...so what is the use of that huge engine in the picture? Is it installed in a ship or is running a generator set?

Thanks

Here's a link to the Wartsila site...BIG motors.

http://www.wartsila.com/,en,products...uct,,24079490412160704,no,8001.htm
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
747400sp
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RE: Why No High Speed Diesel For Ships?

Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:02 pm

Wow I would not mind owning, The World Not Enough. Click under The World Not Enough to read about it.


http://www.wartsila.com/,en,products...79490412160704,no,8001.htm[/quote]

Could you imagine the places you could go to in a week if you live in Flordia, with a 70 knot yacht?
The Carribean would be your play ground.


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