Falcon84
Topic Author
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Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:04 pm

Yes, according to her husband, despite the fact she fought police, yelled and screamed, made a total fool of herself, and just wouldn't cooperate, she deserved a hug, not handcuffs.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/10/airport.death/index.html

I reel for the guy, losing his wife. But come on, she had cooperated with nary a soul, and you want someone to give her a HUG, or sympathy? Why? She made life miserable for people involved in that situation, and it's her own fault she is no longer alive, not the police; not the airline.

I think this smells of a major lawsuit.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:22 pm

Sure, lets just hug all the criminals. Maybe the world would be a better place.  Yeah sure
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
767Lover
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:29 pm

I still don't understand why, if she was so fragile, her family allowed her to travel alone. If you've ever watched "intervention," they always escort the addict to the rehab location.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:43 pm

Yea she did sound like she shouldn't have been alone but I will say this, she didn't the way Phoenix PD says she did. What's worse is nothing will be done about it.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
luv2fly
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:47 pm

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 2):
I still don't understand why, if she was so fragile, her family allowed her to travel alone. If you've ever watched "intervention," they always escort the addict to the rehab location.

Well one reason could be one plane ticket is cheaper than two! And I am sure New York State, where she is from, has treatment centers?
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:49 pm

Life would be so much easier for cops if all the crazy people would just wear shirts identifying them as crazy.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:00 pm

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 1):
Sure, lets just hug all the criminals.

That was WAY out of line. Had you cared to actually find out what happened, this woman had serious mental issues.

I cannot believe that her husband is still going on about what the police did or didn't do. He's the criminal in this, recklessly and negligently allowing his emotionally unstable "wife" (I use quotes because it's becoming apparent his concern and love for her were apparently not there) to travel alone to a rehabilitation center. Air travel can be stressful at times, especially when you miss a flight and are not able to get out for a while. Add an alcoholic, mentally unstable person into the mix...


I feel sorry for her family (minus the husband), the gate agent who was doing his job, and the police who did everything they could to save her life.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
dl021
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:00 pm

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 2):
I still don't understand why, if she was so fragile, her family allowed her to travel alone. If you've ever watched "intervention," they always escort the addict to the rehab location.

having assisted in more than one intervention I'll say that it's sort of a hard and fast rule that you don't let a person fly themselves to a facility....
family is at fault here if anyone besides this woman is....
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
ltbewr
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:27 pm

In the post-9/11 era, police are going to be take more aggressive actions to control those who behave in such a matter as this woman did. Yes, the family is partially to blame for not accompany her to her rehab and she should have gone to a facility much closer to her home in NYC so didn't have to fly. Still, she was in police custody when she died so they do share most of the liability for her dying.

From what we know of this incident, some changes should be made in police procedures to deal with similarly disruptive persons. They should have more officers trained in dealing with those who may be mentally or emotionally ill in a less confrontational way - yes a 'hug' if you will. Aggressive reactions to such persons and their behavior often leads to an escalation in bad behavior back and forth by both parties. The police could have called in Paramedics or others medically trained for advice and assistance. I also think that with her behavior, she should have been not placed in the holding room chained to the bench without direct, full time observation by a police officer or employee and back up quickly available. Such different procedures may have largely prevented the end of this woman's life at PHX.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:40 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 8):
Aggressive reactions to such persons and their behavior often leads to an escalation in bad behavior back and forth by both parties.

Have you even bothered to watch the video of her arrest? The gate agent tried to calm her down gently. TSA personnel standing at the checkpoint tried to calm her down gently.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 8):
The police could have called in Paramedics or others medically trained for advice and assistance

The police ARE medically trained. To call in medics for every instance of a disorderly person would wreak havoc on the system.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 8):
I also think that with her behavior, she should have been not placed in the holding room chained to the bench without direct, full time observation by a police officer or employee and back up quickly available.

Again, to put a suicide watch on every single D.C. arrest would sap too many resources.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:45 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 6):
That was WAY out of line.

No, she was WAY out of line. People need to stop making excuses for people who are out of control.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
NIKV69
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:05 pm

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 10):
No, she was WAY out of line. People need to stop making excuses for people who are out of control.

Though I agree there has to be a point where the subject is subdued and subsequently not killed. I mean not to be anti-police here but I think it's plain to see they caused her death. Short of hanging it's next to impossible to strangle yourself. In fact Michael Baden has publicity said the Police's account of her death is not feasible. Criminal or not we have to law enforcement act properly.

[Edited 2007-10-10 12:05:40]
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
diamond
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:30 pm

Not to sound sappy, but:

This husband is probably in the worst state of grief he's ever experienced. It may come across like he thinks someone should have hugged his wife ... but I think he's expressing what he would like to for her do right now, and is unable to do.

He didn't express it that way, no. But it's not like he had a team of speech writers and handlers to help prepare him for being quoted in the news either. Comments come out wrong. It happens.

I'd give him a huge break, and just realize the guy is in a lot of emotional pain at the moment.
Blank.
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:44 pm

Quoting Diamond (Reply 12):
I'd give him a huge break, and just realize the guy is in a lot of emotional pain at the moment.

Same here, the jackals that are the media should have left him alone. Whatever he said in a eulogy should have been kept private.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
emiratesa345
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:07 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):

Agreed. 100%

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 8):
In the post-9/11 era, police are going to be take more aggressive actions to control those who behave in such a matter as this woman did. Yes, the family is partially to blame for not accompany her to her rehab and she should have gone to a facility much closer to her home in NYC so didn't have to fly. Still, she was in police custody when she died so they do share most of the liability for her dying.

I'm not sure if this has anything to do with it being post 9/11 era. In Canada, where our police services are known to be considerably less aggressive than those in the United States, specifically at the service that I'm involved with, if you resist arrest, you will be taken down with force. This is done for the protection of the Officers invloved as well as the person being arrested. The police are required to use only as much physical force as necessary to gain control of the person, whether that involves being physically taken down, pepper sprayed, hit with the baton or in the worst case scenario, shot. Based on the assessment of the situation done by the Officer, he/she will decide what is required to gain control of this person, based on the limitations of the Use of Force Continuum. Based on my training, I don't see anything wrong with the way this woman was subdued.

-Mark
You and I were meant to fly, Air Canada!
 
greasespot
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:53 pm

wow the next mental health patiant who tries to kick,bite,spit,punch...etc. I am not going to control...I am going to go up and say " Com'on.....some one needs a hug" and then extend my arms for the embrace that will make it all settle down. Who knows if it works I may stop carrying my gun and replace it with a teddybear...

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:59 pm

Quoting Diamond (Reply 12):
This husband is probably in the worst state of grief he's ever experienced. It may come across like he thinks someone should have hugged his wife ... but I think he's expressing what he would like to for her do right now, and is unable to do.

On that, I agree wholeheartedly. I'm not trying to demean the man-Lord knows, he's been through a lot, with his wife's condition, then her death. And, maybe, when he has time to reflect, he'll think that maybe he'd say it differently. But people who go beserk in airports are not going to be treated with kid gloves. They're just not. It constitutes a threat, and has to be dealed with that way.
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767Lover
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:16 pm

OK let's be realistic.

First of all, a man isn't always ready with immediate hugs when it's a woman he loves who is distressed. Usually the reaction is more deer in the headlights "WTF". To expect a police officer to just have an automatic reaction of "Aw, come here, it's okay" with warm and fuzzy hugs during a "call" is just unrealistic.

These officers got called to the scene and found a woman going beserk. The video proves she was going berserk. These officers have no idea who she is, what has happened to her or what substance she is "on" or what sharp object she might be carrying. They simply try to restrain her the best they can. Sometimes it takes a lot to restrain the person. My 78-year old demented mother is strong enough to take me down when she wants to. So I'm sure this lady was being quite difficult.

She is put in a holding cell where she can be safe and not harm herself or anyone else (ostensibly).

Instead of allowing herself to calm down, she goes into some sort of gyration that causes her own death. That is very sad, very tragic, but she caused it herself. I do not see where these officers are at all culpable for her death. It is really no different than me going berserk, a friend running after me to get me to calm down, and me running into traffic and getting hit by a car.

I know there have been instances of police brutality in some cases, but I don't think this is it.
 
Pope
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:10 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 6):
That was WAY out of line. Had you cared to actually find out what happened, this woman had serious mental issues.

If this guy thought his wife was "suicidal" as has been reported. Then he's criminally negligent in my mind for allowing her to travel alone. As a frequent traveller, the last thing I want is to get on a plane with a suicidal nutcase.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
AirCop
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:11 am

Perhaps if a family member traveled with her, then someone would have been there to give her a hug. Something just stinks about this entire case. His comments that she was supposed to meet a friend at the airport, and how is that friend supposed to get through security?

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
I think this smells of a major lawsuit.

Not here in Phoenix, if this case ever went to trial, he will lose big time, unless some information regarding cause of death becomes public that we are not aware of.
 
mspguy
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:41 am

if they would of hugged her then they would be getting slapped with sexual harassment lawsuit
If it ain't broke, DON'T touch it!!!!
 
SaturnVRocket
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:53 am

Quoting MSPGUY (Reply 20):
if they would of hugged her then they would be getting slapped with sexual harassment lawsuit

Learn to be less literal for the love of God.
 
L-188
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:12 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 8):
In the post-9/11 era, police are going to be take more aggressive actions

Sorry but that is a very weak justification for police aggression.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 9):
The police ARE medically trained

No they aren't, other then some basic first aid.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 12):
I'd give him a huge break, and just realize the guy is in a lot of emotional pain at the moment.

Agree completely, he just stated how he feels.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 17):
She is put in a holding cell where she can be safe and not harm herself

Yeah, that really worked out well

Quoting MSPGUY (Reply 20):
if they would of hugged her then they would be getting slapped with sexual harassment lawsuit

Completely politically incorrect but probably correct
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:47 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 10):
No, she was WAY out of line. People need to stop making excuses for people who are out of control.

Though I agree there has to be a point where the subject is subdued and subsequently not killed.

She died, she wasn't killed. Saying she was killed implies the police 'did this to her'. She did it to herself, aided by her family's spectacularly stupid decision to not travel with her.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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Maverick623
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:22 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
In fact Michael Baden has publicity said the Police's account of her death is not feasible.

Did Mr. Baden examine the scene of the accident? Did he do the autopsy on her body?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
I mean not to be anti-police here but I think it's plain to see they caused her death.

I couldn't disagree more with you. I'm not gonna say any more, because it'll prolly earn me a ban.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
Short of hanging it's next to impossible to strangle yourself.

Unless, you know, you wrap a chain around your neck.

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 10):
No, she was WAY out of line. People need to stop making excuses for people who are out of control.

People need to be a little more sensitive to people who recognize that they have a problem AND seek out help for that problem.

Quoting Pope (Reply 18):
If this guy thought his wife was "suicidal" as has been reported. Then he's criminally negligent in my mind for allowing her to travel alone.

Agreed. From the Wikipedia article on Criminal Negligence:

Quote:
But criminal negligence is a 'misfeasance or 'nonfeasance', where the fault lies in the failure to foresee and so allow otherwise avoidable dangers to manifest.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:53 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
Criminal or not we have to law enforcement act properly.

I believe it is federally mandated that all first responders (police, medics, even dispatchers) go through what is called crisis intervention training. In short it is how to deal with crazy people. When I took the class they even admitted if someone gets combative you might have to fight with them. Sounds like she got combative.. And taking on 2 or more cops is not a fight too many people are going to win. She lost, I hate to be cold, but if you fight with the cops you are going to get your ass kicked as sure as the sun will rise in the morning. I am sorry she is dead, but the officers did what they had to do.

NIK before you even start, don't monday morning quarterback what those officers did. None of us were there and it is safe to assume you have never been in the situation they have been in. If their bosses and other people more qualified than most people on this board felt they acted in the wrong action was or will be taken against them within their department.

Quoting MSPGUY (Reply 20):
if they would of hugged her then they would be getting slapped with sexual harassment lawsuit

Or given a reprimand by their department for breaking one of the most basic officer safety rules. Someone who is hugging you is dangerously close to your weapon.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
huskyaviation
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:57 pm

Quoting AirCop (Reply 19):
Not here in Phoenix, if this case ever went to trial, he will lose big time, unless some information regarding cause of death becomes public that we are not aware of.

I'm sorry, but you know this how?
 
767Lover
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:04 pm

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 25):
Or given a reprimand by their department for breaking one of the most basic officer safety rules. Someone who is hugging you is dangerously close to your weapon.

Good point.
 
kalakaua
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:24 pm

Has anyone seen that CSI episode? If you know what I'm talking about... It kinda reminds me of that. But I don't know. I wasn't there.
Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:58 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 23):
She died, she wasn't killed. Saying she was killed implies the police 'did this to her'. She did it to herself, aided by her family's spectacularly stupid decision to not travel with her.

Oh I am exactly implying that. There is no possible way for a human being to strangle oneself other than hanging. If you tried to choke yourself with your hand, handcuffs or rope you would lose consciousos and not be able to keep constant pressure on your neck to finish the deed. The police caused her death, most likley by accident and they are covering it up.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 25):
I believe it is federally mandated that all first responders (police, medics, even dispatchers) go through what is called crisis intervention training. In short it is how to deal with crazy people. When I took the class they even admitted if someone gets combative you might have to fight with them. Sounds like she got combative.. And taking on 2 or more cops is not a fight too many people are going to win. She lost, I hate to be cold, but if you fight with the cops you are going to get your ass kicked as sure as the sun will rise in the morning. I am sorry she is dead, but the officers did what they had to do.

NIK before you even start, don't monday morning quarterback what those officers did. None of us were there and it is safe to assume you have never been in the situation they have been in. If their bosses and other people more qualified than most people on this board felt they acted in the wrong action was or will be taken against them within their
department.

Did what they had to do? You must be kidding. They overreacted and caused the death of this woman. I totally agree if you disobey law enforcement you should get a beating and thrown in a cell but they crossed the line. I am not saying they did it on purpose but they got caught up in the moment and acted with too much aggression. Medical experts have totally debunked the account the officers gave on how she died. It can not happen the way they said it did. I base my opinion on facts and the testimony of experts that know what they are talking about. The only way this woman could have caused her own death was to hang herself in her cell, That clearly did not happen. I would hope someone would come forward and give this family the truth because we sure haven't heard any.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:40 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 29):
Did what they had to do? You must be kidding. They overreacted and caused the death of this woman.

So how long have you worked in law enforcement?

I am guessing never

How many hostile people have you ever had to physically bring under control?

I am guessing zero


STFU NIK, you are out of your element. I don't tell you how to do your job, so try not telling cops how to do theirs.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 29):
I am not saying they did it on purpose but they got caught up in the moment and acted with too much aggression.

Without looking these guys probably had pretty good service records. Way to question both their abilities and integrity in one swoop that is pretty impressive even for you. You are probably the first person to say ban the taser when someone dies from being tased.

The best advice in the world is this: If you don't want to get banged up, don't fight with the cops. It is just that simple.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:00 pm

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 30):
How many hostile people have you ever had to physically bring under control?

LOLOL, this woman was how big, weighed how much? Come on pal. They screwed up. Big time too. This woman could have been put under control easily. Bravado took over and they killed her. Face it.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 30):
Way to question both their abilities and integrity in one swoop that is pretty impressive even for you. You are probably the first person to say ban the taser when someone dies from being tased.

Actually I am a big fan of the taser. In would have probably worked better in this case instead of the choke hold.

If a person dies from the taser I have no problem with it. This is a tad different. I still hope the truth comes out because the officer responsible for this needs to pay. I know you are supposed to listen to LO but refusing to do so should not cost your life.

[Edited 2007-10-11 08:07:27]
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
AirCop
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:02 pm

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 26):
I'm sorry, but you know this how?

A review of case histories in Maricopa County Superior Court shows that Phoenix civil juries side with the police.
 
huskyaviation
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:10 pm

Quoting AirCop (Reply 32):
A review of case histories in Maricopa County Superior Court shows that Phoenix civil juries side with the police.

That may be true, but you don't know all the facts of the case (nor do I), so to already come to a conclusion as to the result of a potential civil trial is sheer folly.
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:10 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 31):
LOLOL, this woman was how big, weighed how much? Come on pal. They screwed up. Big time too. This woman could have been put under control easily.

That shows just how little you know.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:38 pm

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 34):
That shows just how little you know.

Ok joe pro cop. Tell me how an unarmed female that couldn't weighed more than 120 lbs was arrested and put in a cell and is now dead. When the most respected forensic patholigist showed that she could not have died the way the PO said she did? Now really, even if she was totally freaking out she could have been restrained quite easily. Given all the tools LO has at it's disposal. Now I could care less about your background. Stick to the facts please. Don't confuse the issue here. This woman, unarmed, in an airport where multiple officers were present to restrain her. Something is wrong here. So don't tell me I don't know anything. Next you will tell me Dr Michael Baden doesn't know what he is talking about either right?
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
greasespot
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:35 pm

I work with people who missed 2 weeks of work becasue of a small 100 lb woman( got kicked in the knee)....Some of the greatest resisters are the small people who are hi......

You were not there....I was not there....My perception may be different than yours. what I see may be different than what they see...easy to armchair after the fact and from a video......

You can what iff every situation.... what if she had a knife or a gun in her waist band....You only know AFTER they are arrested...You do not always know before if a person is armed.There have been enough officers killed in the last your doing routine incidents...
I am not paid to get hurt even though sometimes it is part of the job...


GS

[Edited 2007-10-11 10:37:11]
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
TheCol
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:51 pm

Quoting EmiratesA345 (Reply 14):
In Canada, where our police services are known to be considerably less aggressive than those in the United States

Yeah, thats why people are screaming for independent inquires of RCMP misconduct.  Yeah sure
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
lobster
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RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:55 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 35):
When the most respected forensic patholigist showed that she could not have died the way the PO said she did?

You tell him to stick to the facts and yet you make an comment like that. Hmmmm. First off, Dr. Henry Lee is the most respected forensic pathologist in the US, if not the world, hands down. I wasn't able to find one article that said he conducted the autopsy.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 35):
even if she was totally freaking out she could have been restrained quite easily. Given all the tools LO has at it's disposal

Like CaptOveur said, just shows how little you know. Ever try to take down a small 120lb lady who's extremely combative? No? Huh, well I have. Many times in the course of my work. It's not nearly as simply as it looks. Those are the ones that fight the hardest and make us look like a bunch of wimps to Joe Smoe.

And those "tools" you talk about. Yeah, maybe they could of Tasered her, but then you'd just be crying policy brutality.

The lady is dead. I said it before and I'll say it again, she made her own choice to resist arrest, and then continue to be "disorderly" and finally attempt to free herself from the restraint system. It's Darwinism at it's finest. Good riddance, thanks for leaving the gene pool.
 
emiratesa345
Posts: 2043
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 10:11 am

RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:02 pm

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 15):
wow the next mental health patiant who tries to kick,bite,spit,punch...etc. I am not going to control...I am going to go up and say " Com'on.....some one needs a hug" and then extend my arms for the embrace that will make it all settle down. Who knows if it works I may stop carrying my gun and replace it with a teddybear...

Haha well said!

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 31):
LOLOL, this woman was how big, weighed how much? Come on pal. They screwed up. Big time too. This woman could have been put under control easily. Bravado took over and they killed her. Face it.

All that is totally irrelevant. It's called excited delirium. I've seen a couple guys who were so strung out that it took 6 or 7 Officers just to get them under control with the aid of a taser.


I don't blame you for your ignorance, my opinions would have been similar had I not become involved with the organization that I'm with.

-Mark
You and I were meant to fly, Air Canada!
 
emiratesa345
Posts: 2043
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 10:11 am

RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:15 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 37):
Yeah, thats why people are screaming for independent inquires of RCMP misconduct.

I'm not sure how many times in Canada you've been approached by an Officer with his firearm drawn, while at a routine traffic stop.

-Mark

[Edited 2007-10-11 11:22:48]
You and I were meant to fly, Air Canada!
 
slider
Posts: 6806
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:33 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 7):
having assisted in more than one intervention I'll say that it's sort of a hard and fast rule that you don't let a person fly themselves to a facility....
family is at fault here if anyone besides this woman is....

Exactly---and it's also interesting that she changed her itinerary as well.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 12):
I'd give him a huge break, and just realize the guy is in a lot of emotional pain at the moment.

But not so much pain that this privileged family can't hire their own MD for an autopsy or retain a bunch of lawyers who, through a settlement, can assuage their pain through litigation.
 
redngold
Posts: 6673
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2000 12:26 pm

RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:51 pm

It may be "next to impossible" to strangle yourself, but if you're drunk and unable to control your muscles, it's much easier.

I've heard of men dying of asphyxia because they got drunk, then got on a car/plane/train and fell asleep with their head sagging down over their tie knot therefore causing pressure either on the trachea or carotid arteries. Subsequently the brain was deprived of oxygen and they were too drunk to respond to the warning signs.

If this woman got her arm up under her chin and twisted, then was unable to relieve pressure against her lower jaw and the muscles of her tongue (which are fixed to the hyoid bone deep in the neck) she could conceivably strangled herself.
Up, up and away!
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10889
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:38 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 24):
Did he do the autopsy on her body?

The won't let him. If they do then we will know the truth.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 24):
Unless, you know, you wrap a chain around your neck.

And then what? You have to apply and keep pressure applied to be effective. She could not have done it. It's impossible. It's been proven and you all don't want to accept it because you want to stand on this ritual about LO. Sorry to say but she needed some aid from someone to strangle herself. If you are going to deny it I can't help you. It's sad though.

Quoting Lobster (Reply 38):
You tell him to stick to the facts and yet you make an comment like that. Hmmmm. First off, Dr. Henry Lee is the most respected forensic pathologist in the US, if not the world, hands down. I wasn't able to find one article that said he conducted the autopsy.

It is you that needs to get your facts straight sir. Lee specializes in crime scenes and blood splatter. Baden is the man.
Kind of curious why every news agency has him on for his advice in stories on this?

Quoting Lobster (Reply 38):
And those "tools" you talk about. Yeah, maybe they could of Tasered her, but then you'd just be crying policy brutality.

As stated I am a huge fan of the taser. Would have worked better than the strangle hold, aye?
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4636
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:37 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 29):
Oh I am exactly implying that. There is no possible way for a human being to strangle oneself other than hanging. If you tried to choke yourself with your hand, handcuffs or rope you would lose consciousos and not be able to keep constant pressure on your neck to finish the deed. The police caused her death, most likley by accident and they are covering it up.

Ever consider that when the chain went around her neck she fell over and was not strong enough to pull herself out of the choke?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 31):
LOLOL, this woman was how big, weighed how much?

Never underestimate the power of an out of control person.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 35):
When the most respected forensic patholigist showed that she could not have died the way the PO said she did?

Again, was he present at the autopsy? Did he examine the scene? If he goes about making BS claims like that, he deserves no respect.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 35):
Now really, even if she was totally freaking out she could have been restrained quite easily.

Have you ever tried to restrain a person who is not in their right mind? Thought no.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 35):
Now I could care less about your background. Stick to the facts please

My background is entriely relevant to the facts. I'm about to finish my degree in Criminal Justice, have been on many ride-alongs with the police, and have numerous family members that are either current or retired cops. I think I know what I'm talking about

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 35):
Next you will tell me Dr Michael Baden doesn't know what he is talking about either right?

Unless he has directly examined the evidence, he has no effing clue. And neither do you.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10889
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:11 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 44):
Ever consider that when the chain went around her neck she fell over and was not strong enough to pull herself out of the choke?

Can't happen. It's impossible. Go get a chain and try it yourself.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 44):
Never underestimate the power of an out of control person.

I'm not but she could have been restrained without killing her of seriously hurting her.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 44):
Again, was he present at the autopsy? Did he examine the scene? If he goes about making BS claims like that, he deserves no respect.

No but he has been present at thousands and has seen a million ways people die. I think he is qualified to say what he wants.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 44):
Unless he has directly examined the evidence, he has no effing clue. And neither do you

I wish he was able to examine the evidence. Would clear a lot of things up.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:53 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 45):
Can't happen. It's impossible. Go get a chain and try it yourself.

Invalid argument. We are all in a sound state of mind.

As has already been said the smallest people are the most violent resisters and can easily take 3 or more people to get into handcuffs. People who are drunk, suffering side effects of mind-controlling drugs, or just plain crazy have a big advantage in a fight- they don't feel pain. This gives them strength you cannot believe. If you have any doubts ask for a ride-along with your local police department. Most departments are pretty open about it, because they do work for you afterall. Hopefully you can ride along on a Friday or Saturday night and you can see all the beaten up people in the drunk tank.

Sorry for my slow response.. I had to sleep and work.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4636
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:44 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 45):
No but he has been present at thousands and has seen a million ways people die. I think he is qualified to say what he wants.

I'll say it again: no self-respecting physician would make a diagnosis, or proscribe a treatement, without directly examining the patient.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: Lady Who Died At PHX Should Have Gotten "Hug"

Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:02 am

Quoting EmiratesA345 (Reply 40):

So you've had American cops pull sidearms out on you more than once?
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.

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