MadameConcorde
Topic Author
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Turkey Border Clash

Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:37 pm

I am not a specialist in geostrategy so do you think this Turkey border clash with the Kurdish PKK could lead to a war between Turkey and Iraq? Would the Turkish government go to war over this and send troops to the area?

We have to wait until tomorrow and see how the price of crude oil will react to this.


Quote:
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has called a crisis meeting in Ankara, which is likely to consider whether to attack PKK bases in Iraq.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7055004.stm
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
Alessandro
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:46 pm

They have troops already inside Iraq, basically no one else is watching. The political part is if they will use the airforce or not...
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pilotaydin
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:17 pm

we don't have troops stationed inside, they go in and out, and do what they need to do, and will do what they need to do after what happened today...may those soldiers RIP....

I'm turkish, and i don't stand for any part of my country to be given to anyone else, neither would any of you...and those young kids didn't deserve to die in that ambush today, and I quite frankly can't believe the US is telling us to still back off...no one told the us to back off after 9/11.....
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:19 pm

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 2):
I quite frankly can't believe the US

frankly its double standards. When Israel was attacked by Hezbollah Bush said it was the legal and moral right of Israel to "defend herself" yet when Turkey is attacked by TERRORISTS, they're told to hold back. It is a very similar issue, yet double standards are noticeable once again.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
pilotaydin
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:34 pm

it just makes it more and more clear, that the US has major intentions to secure its own oil and national growth, otherwise you would have wiped out Cuba, instead they choose to back stab us, support the PKK, run a country that is no longer called Iraq, it's a shamble....sad, sad sad.....all for oilll
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
Bofredrik
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:36 pm

I hope that Turkey will wipe out PKK for good!
 
pilotaydin
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:47 pm

I need to make this clear...

in Turkey, we DO not have a problem with KURDS, we have a problem with the PKK a kurdish group of terrorists....it needs to be clear to everyone..... we are not anti kurdish and u will not find any media or any propaganda in turkey that says anything bad about kurdish people...it's the pkk
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:49 pm

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 6):
we are not anti kurdish

so will they ever have a homeland?
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
BCNGRO
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:51 pm

I think Kurdistan's status should be discussed democratically by all the people living there and Turkey should accept their decision. Violence is not justified for any of the parts.
At the bus station, buses stop. At the train station, trains stop. At my desk, I have a work station.
 
emrecan
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:54 pm

The other countries must understand one point. Turkey is against PKK not Kurdish people. Kurdish people living in Turkey are also against PKK. Unfortunately, for the years others have blamed Turkey for killing Kurds and they have never accepted PKK as a terrorist group. Today 'son of the b... Barzani' is saying that he cannot name PKK as terrorists.

The world must understand and must support Turkey on this situation. Even we are alone, we will finish this problem by ourselves.
For years Turks and Kurds are brothers and live together in peace without any problem. Noone can stop this...
 
emrecan
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:56 pm

LAXSpotter:

They can have a homeland in California. Give your land to them if you want so
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:59 pm

I'm gonna take that as a NO.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
pilotaydin
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:59 pm

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 7):
so will they ever have a homeland?

not if it takes from my homeland....
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
emrecan
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:02 pm

BCNGRO:

It is clear that you don't know anything about the subject, so please learn more and then write here ok?????
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:10 pm

Thanks for your input Pilotaydin. Could you please explain what created PKK and what motivates their terrorist actions? Please understand that I am totally ignorant of the situation.  Confused This is why I started the thread.
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
pilotaydin
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:59 pm

i wouldnt call anyone ignorant on this situation, it is not a well publiced matter, only recently since the US has been involved in politics over here has cnn and other affiliates been reporting on it, they make it seem new...

The kurds have been displaced for years and years, some say hundreds....they are basically a group of people who have ethnically bounced around between syria, turkey, iraq and iran, and a large portion of them live in turkey, in the millions actually. Some of them want their own nation, Kurdistan, and well the problem is, where is the land? all soil has been claimed for many years now....so what basically happened was a group called the PKK has been trying to dismantle portions of turkey in name of kurdistan, and over the years have killed close to 28,000 turks....we too have taken innocent lives of theirs, and of their militia...but the fighting goes on...in the clinton era it was dormant...but now with bush and america giving the kurds of the north of iraq hope, they are up in arms and are trying to use this wave to turn the us and turkey against each other.....Kurdish people live in south eastern turkey, they are kind and friendly, but the ones that do not appreciate turkey are members of the PKK, the separatist group that wish to take down my country. Their main leader, APO as we call him, was captured by turkish special forces in africa and brought to turkey, he is held captive on a remote island just outside turkey, awaiting sentencing, but that too is a big issue, if we kill him, northern iraq will turn a shit storm, for us and the USA....so it would have been in the USA's best interest to be on our side with this...
no one knows what they are doing now

that's it in a nutshell
any ?s, feel free
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LAXspotter
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:04 pm

Quoting Emrecan (Reply 13):
It is clear that you don't know anything about the subject, so please learn more and then write here ok?????

Wow, you guys really dont want your "Turkishness" to be insulted. Its rather Ironic how the vast majority of Turks would support the movement of a Palestinian homeland, yet deny those same aspirations for the Kurds, and those of you who consistenly continue to emphasize that Turkey treats all Kurds equal, are trying to downplay the reality. Is any talk of Kurdish Nationalism against the law?
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
Alessandro
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:09 pm

Pilot, that´s the official version, everyone knows the truth, Turkish troops are inside Iraq operating.
APO was caught by Mossad and Kenyan special forces in Kenya and handed over to Turkish intelligence as a trophy.
I doubt Turkey dare to execute him.
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Alessandro
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:11 pm

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 16):
Wow, you guys really dont want your "Turkishness" to be insulted. Its rather Ironic how the vast majority of Turks would support the movement of a Palestinian homeland, yet deny those same aspirations for the Kurds, and those of you who consistenly continue to emphasize that Turkey treats all Kurds equal, are trying to downplay the reality. Is any talk of Kurdish Nationalism against the law?

Most Turks don´t care about the Palestines, Turkey got embassy in Tel-Aviv and sell chartertrips to Israelis.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
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alberchico
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:53 pm

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 7):
so will they ever have a homeland?

That's not really Turkey's problem......

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 18):
Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 16):
Wow, you guys really dont want your "Turkishness" to be insulted. Its rather Ironic how the vast majority of Turks would support the movement of a Palestinian homeland, yet deny those same aspirations for the Kurds, and those of you who consistenly continue to emphasize that Turkey treats all Kurds equal, are trying to downplay the reality. Is any talk of Kurdish Nationalism against the law?

The differences between those 2 cases are vast and why should Turkey now have to give up some territory to these people??? The best solution is for a piece of Iraq to be given to the Kurds to set up their homelend.
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:00 pm

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 19):
The differences between those 2 cases are vast and why should Turkey now have to give up some territory to these people??? The best solution is for a piece of Iraq to be given to the Kurds to set up their homelend.

yes, it is different and was a horrible example on my part, apologies. However, as you noted what will probably happen is that Iraq will be divided into three regions, and one of them will be an independent Kurdistan in the North. I doubt tho that life would be better in Independent Kurdistan as to lure in thousands of Kurds from all over the middleeast.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
BCNGRO
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:10 pm

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 16):
Wow, you guys really dont want your "Turkishness" to be insulted. Its rather Ironic how the vast majority of Turks would support the movement of a Palestinian homeland, yet deny those same aspirations for the Kurds, and those of you who consistenly continue to emphasize that Turkey treats all Kurds equal, are trying to downplay the reality. Is any talk of Kurdish Nationalism against the law?

That's the kind of double standards I can not stand.

Same thing here in Spain for people claiming historical rights over Gibraltar (UK) while denying those of Catalonia or the Basque country.

I may not know too much about the kurds' case but I do know about many countries' foreign and "inner" policies on these issues and often they are just non-democratical.
At the bus station, buses stop. At the train station, trains stop. At my desk, I have a work station.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:11 pm

Just to make one thing clear: The PKK is not just for an independent Kurdistan, but it is also a deeply stalinist marxist party, under their, now imprisoned leader Oecalan, who aimed to be their supreme leader.
They have not just been fighting turkish forces, but also opposition Kurdish parties. In
Europe they blackmailed and threaten exiled Kurds to make donations to their party (revolutionary tax). In Germany PKK activists have been burning Turkish owned shops. This is why they are banned as a terrorist and extremist organisation in Germany.

I understand that the Basque ETA is also not just fighting for an independent Euskadi (the name for the Basque country in their own language) , but for an Euskadi led by them, where private property is being nationalised. the Irish IRA had similar aims in Ireland.

During the last elections in Turkey, the people in the Kurdish regions overwhelmingly voted for the moderate Islamic conservative party, which is now ruling Turkey. I think that also new laws which gave the Kurds a limited autonomy and the official recognition of their language and cultire have helped. The support for Kurduish nationalist parties has apparently dropped.
IMO the main problem lies that the Kurdish regions of Anatolia are among the most backward ones of Turkey, with often feudalist structures still in place and poverty widespread. IMO a strong development programme will remove the base from which the likes of the PKK recruit their supporters.

The PKK has seen that they lost influence since Oecalan was arrested and, from what I have heard, the recent attacks on Turkish troops (the armistice was broken by the PKK) were carried out to draw attention to the PKK.

Jan

[Edited 2007-10-21 16:36:12]

[Edited 2007-10-21 16:37:35]
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connies4ever
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:33 pm

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 20):
yes, it is different and was a horrible example on my part, apologies. However, as you noted what will probably happen is that Iraq will be divided into three regions, and one of them will be an independent Kurdistan in the North. I doubt tho that life would be better in Independent Kurdistan as to lure in thousands of Kurds from all over the middleeast.

I think Turkish governments, at one time or another, have said they will not accept a truly independent Kurdish state in what is now northern Iraq. My guess is that they believe it would further inspire PKK to try to agitate for lopping off a part of SE Turkey to annex to the new country. This would definitely claim many lives. Not sure if Turkey would invade an 'independent' Kurdistan or not, as this would really pose an awkward problem for the US -- unless of course they waited until after the inevitable American withdrawal.

I work with 3 Turkish citizens (dual Canadian/Turkish) and all very fine people, and I understand this is a very sensitive problem for them, and they truly feel Turkey is being misrepresented in th world media.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
cfalk
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:43 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Thread starter):
I am not a specialist in geostrategy so do you think this Turkey border clash with the Kurdish PKK could lead to a war between Turkey and Iraq? Would the Turkish government go to war over this and send troops to the area?

It is an extremely tense situation. The PKK is strongly identified with the Kurdish populations in Iraq and Turkey, although as MD11 pointed out, they do not necessarily represent them in terms of political ambitions. The Iraqi Kurds, for instance have no desire for Marxism, but they still identify with and sympathize with the PKK.

The PKK being an internationally recognized terrorist group, it should be fairly easy for the US to go after them at the same time as going after Al Qaeda in Iraq. That way the Turks would join the fight against Al Qaeda. But if they did that publicly, the Iraqi Kurds will be extremely pissed off, and they are the part of Iraq that has progressed the most since the liberation of Iraq.

So it's a delicate situation - how to fight the PKK and help the Turks in their legitimate concerns, without pissing off our best allies among the Iraqi population.

Welcome to Geopolitics!
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virgin744
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:04 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 7):
so will they ever have a homeland?

Article 4 of the Turkish Constitution declares "the indivisibility of the Republic and of the Turkish Nation" therefore its illegal.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 16):
Wow, you guys really dont want your "Turkishness" to be insulted. Its rather Ironic how the vast majority of Turks would support the movement of a Palestinian homeland, yet deny those same aspirations for the Kurds, and those of you who consistenly continue to emphasize that Turkey treats all Kurds equal, are trying to downplay the reality. Is any talk of Kurdish Nationalism against the law?

That's got to be one of the most stupid and ill-thought out comments I've read here in a long time!
Treating one's ethnicity with equality cannot be viewed as having to accept that you devide a sovereign state to please that group of people - that would be like America agreeing to give away California to an ethnic group just because America allows equality to prevail in its land. Can you tell me which sovereign state you know of that has given away its land to an ethnic race /group of peoples on the grounds of equality?

Quoting BCNGRO (Reply 8):
I think Kurdistan's status should be discussed democratically by all the people living there

Firstly, theres no such place as 'kurdistan' - that's a fact! kurdistan as you call it is just a phrase that's been coined by people and governments ignorant to the facts and reality of the situation. It would be like me calling Southall in London 'Sikhall' just because lots of Sikhs live there and they outnumber the white-English, it doesnt mean they can carve out that place for their own!
"by all the people living there" Living where!??? there is NO place!!! They, as you call them do not have a land or borders - THEY live in regions and territories of 4 different countries and as such are citizens of those countries they inhabit and live in!
Just because I'm a UK national living in California, it does not mean that I can make my own country here and take it from the US & declare it an independant nation.

Virgin744
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:19 am

Turkey has every right to defend herself against the PKK, but there are many Turks who seem to deny

Quoting Virgin744 (Reply 25):
Article 4 of the Turkish Constitution declares "the indivisibility of the Republic and of the Turkish Nation" therefore its illegal.

That's what I needed

Quoting Virgin744 (Reply 25):
Can you tell me which sovereign state you know of that has given away its land to an ethnic race /group of peoples on the grounds of equality?

NONE

Just wondering tho, what will happen to the aspirations of the Kurdish people who want a Homeland?
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
emrecan
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:22 am

LAXSpotter:

One day come to Turkey and see how we live together with Kurdish people in peace.

[Edited 2007-10-21 23:26:57]
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:28 am

Quoting Emrecan (Reply 27):
One day come to Turkey and see how we live together with Kurdish people in peace.

I must, it is one of the greatest countries in the World. I must visit Istanbul, one of the greatest cities. I dunno how life is for Kurds frankly, that being said I am firmly against PKK and Turkey has every right no matter if the US says to stand back to defend herself, just like Israel was "given" the thumbs up to seek Hezbollah in Lebanon.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
emrecan
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:37 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 28):

It is great to we have the same point of view on this subject.
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:38 am

Quoting Emrecan (Reply 29):
It is great to we have the same point of view on this subject.

I'm not totally unreasonable, I am just wondering what the long term solution is for the "Kurdish Problem".
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:27 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Thread starter):
this Turkey border clash with the Kurdish PKK could lead to a war between Turkey and Ira

it looks as if the Turks are NOT to attack Kurdistan on the ground. But the slightest incident could change this and lead to a limited invasion of Kurdistan by Turkish ground forces.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:34 am

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 2):
can't believe the US is telling us to still back off...no one told the us to back off after 9/11.....

well, the "war on terror" for GWB and his men is OK as long as it is according to THEIR lines, but no longer of interest if other people want to act against terrorism.
-

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 3):
rankly its double standards. When Israel was attacked by Hezbollah Bush said it was the legal and moral right of Israel to "defend herself" yet when Turkey is attacked by TERRORISTS, they're told to hold back. It is a very similar issue, yet double standards are noticeable once again.

and the Turks do not even intend to destroy the runways of Baghdad International Airport, and do not even intend to attack all highway bridges around Baghdad !!  stirthepot   stirthepot 
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:38 am

Quoting Emrecan (Reply 9):
Kurdish people living in Turkey are also against PKK.

Kurdish people in Turkey are against the PKK for TWO reasons. A) it is a violent organisation and B) it is a far-let organisation. I am sure however that quite many Kurds inside Turkey would be in favour of a unification of the Kurdish majority areas in Turkey with Iraqi Kurdistan.
 
BigTom
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:43 am

Turkey is completely within their rights to strike back at the PKK. With the Iraqis not being able to control what is happening within their own borders, Turkey has to do whatever it has to to keep their citizens secure. If the US doesn't like it too bad.

None of the countries with Kurdish minorities, Turkey, Syria, Iran and Iraq will countenance an independent Kurdish state, in fact they will actively oppose it. Even if Northern Iraq becomes an independent entity, they can expect a hostile reception from their neighbours, unless the US defends their borders.

Quoting BCNGRO (Reply 8):
I think Kurdistan's status should be discussed democratically by all the people living there and Turkey should accept their decision. Violence is not justified for any of the parts.

This sounds very good in an ideal world, but there is no way this will be allowed to happen No country should be divided just because a minority seeks independence, it is just not workable in today's world and will lead to a flood of conflicts all across the globe.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:08 am

Quoting BigTom (Reply 34):
None of the countries with Kurdish minorities, Turkey, Syria, Iran and Iraq will countenance an independent Kurdish state, in fact they will actively oppose it. Even if Northern Iraq becomes an independent entity, they can expect a hostile reception from their neighbours, unless the US defends their borders.

-
Iraqi "Kurdistan" can be regarded as already "semi-independent". Whether anti-independence Talabani still represents much of the Kurdish population is beyond my knowledge, what however IS clear is that a good part of all the soldiers educated by the USA since 2003 were Kurds and many of them in the meantime returned. Equally obvious, whenever beyond proof, is that lots of the "disappeared" US weaponry in Iraq went to Kurdistan. Completely beyond my knowledge is whether the US-American "services" in Iraq really do not realize this or in reality actively support this. However, to allow Turkish Kurds to venture out of "Kurdistan" is simply playing with the fire, as the gigantic Turkish army COULD invade substantial parts of Kurdistan within hours, and retreat within a day.
 
BigTom
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:24 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 35):

Absolutely. And if there ever comes a time when, this semi-independent Kurdistan becomes independent, you can expect punitive action from Turkey, Syria and Iran, all of whom would be worried about the effect an independent Kurd entity would have on their own Kurd minorities.

The problem with allowing self-determination for all ethnic groups is the danger of setting off Yugoslav like mayhem in almost all parts of the world as restive minorities exist in almost every corner.

Cheers
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:42 am

Quoting BigTom (Reply 36):
Turkey, Syria and Iran, all of whom would be worried about the effect an independent Kurd entity would have on their own Kurd minorities.

in case of Syria, the Kurdish minority is so small that Syria might feel tempted to donate some square-kilometers to Kurdistan, and make whatever trouble a Turkish-Iranian-Kurdish affair. I much doubt that Iran would do much upon a full independence of Kurdistan. It is different in Turkey as Turkish Kurdistan is to the North of the Von-der-Goltz/Mustafa-Kemal line of 1917 and is an essential aspect of the Turkish Republic. As is anything in regard to territorial integrity. I you look into the geography of what now is Turkey in 1918 to 1921, with the Ottoman Empire mainly consisting of Istanbul and suburbs, must of Western Anatolia and of Trakya be given to Greece, what is the Southeast now, including Adana, having become part of French Kylikya, the Northeast enroute to pass to the Armenian Soviet Republic, etc, it is obvious that the territorial integrity is a most central aspect in Turkey, so that the Turks out of all this fear anything which might include an idea that they should give up anything of what they regard as THEIR territory. Any idea to "split up" Iraq btw. might remind many Turks of the fact that Mossul and Kirkuk until 1917 were important Turkish cities !
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:47 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 28):
I dunno how life is for Kurds frankly, that being said I am firmly against PKK and Turkey has every right no matter if the US says to stand back to defend herself, just like Israel was "given" the thumbs up to seek Hezbollah in Lebanon.

Over the last ten or so years Turkey has relaxed much in relation to it's nationalism. In the past, it was frankly denied that a Kurdish people exists on Turkish soil, they were described as "Mountain Turks". During the last 10-15 years the ban on Kurdish language was lifted, AFAIK it is taught in schools and there exist moderate Kurdish parties in the Turkish parliament.
One problem still is the poverty in the kurdish regions of Anatolia and that there still exist corrupt feudal structures, e.g. big style land owners, who own whole regions and act like 18th century aristocrats versus share croppers and peasants. Many people from these regions are also extremely conservative and backward (mostly due to lack of education), many "honour killings" among imigrants from Turkey in Germany are carried out by people of kurdish descend.
The poverty also makes it easy for the PKK to recruit supporters, they only have to spread propaganda about disowning the big land owners after their victory and distributing the land, though, as stalinist as Oecalan was, I assume that the peasants could find themselves in agrarian collectives.
One thing the EU could help with is an infrastructural development programme for this region, but it has to be insured that the money would not end up in the pockets of the already rich corrupt regional lords.

The PKK is the most militant of the kurdish parties and likes to show off that they are the only ones who dare to fight Turkey.

On the other hand more than 150 Turkish soldiers (probably mostly conscripts) have been killed by the PKK since the armistice was broken this spring. Due to public pressure, the Turkish government can not wait anymore and is forced to react.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
virgin744
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:59 pm

So, the PKK terrorists have ambushed and kidnapped 8 Turkish soldiers - Irsael went to war with Palestine over 2 soldiers and the world stood by and bitched at the Hezbolla to release them or pay consequences. The PKK has killed and kidnapped these soldiers who were in Turkey defending their own country. Lets see what the world will say about that now.


Don't tell me theres no double standards here!!!

virgin744
 
cfalk
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:04 pm

Quoting Virgin744 (Reply 39):
Don't tell me theres no double standards here!!!

So, you are advocating for the US going to war with the Iraqi Kurds?
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Turkey Border Clash

Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:18 pm

One thing: Not so long ago the two major Kurdish parties in Northern Iraq had armed militias each, which were fighting each other.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
virgin744
Posts: 825
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 1999 5:51 pm

RE: Turkey Border Clash

Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:00 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 40):
Quoting Virgin744 (Reply 39):
Don't tell me theres no double standards here!!!

So, you are advocating for the US going to war with the Iraqi Kurds?

Where, in my statement does it say that I am advocating that!???  Angry  Yeah sure
Maybe English doesnt read as well as its written in the US? I am saying that theres one rule for Israel and one rule for Turkey. When Israel has 2 soldiers kidnapped they destroy the whole infrastructure and demolish Palestine whilst the US and everyone else sits idly by saying 'its your fault Palestinians for provocating the Israelis' but when Turkey has numerous soldiers and civilians killed and kidnapped the US says calm down Turkey, lets use diplomacy!!!!! This has been going on for far too long and enough is enough, theres no such thing as good terrorist bad terrorist - they're ALL bloody terrorists!
 hissyfit   banghead 
 
LAXspotter
Posts: 3227
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:16 pm

RE: Turkey Border Clash

Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:01 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 38):
Over the last ten or so years Turkey has relaxed much in relation to it's nationalism. In the past, it was frankly denied that a Kurdish people exists on Turkish soil, they were described as "Mountain Turks". During the last 10-15 years the ban on Kurdish language was lifted, AFAIK it is taught in schools and there exist moderate Kurdish parties in the Turkish parliament.
One problem still is the poverty in the kurdish regions of Anatolia and that there still exist corrupt feudal structures, e.g. big style land owners, who own whole regions and act like 18th century aristocrats versus share croppers and peasants. Many people from these regions are also extremely conservative and backward (mostly due to lack of education), many "honour killings" among imigrants from Turkey in Germany are carried out by people of kurdish descend.
The poverty also makes it easy for the PKK to recruit supporters, they only have to spread propaganda about disowning the big land owners after their victory and distributing the land, though, as stalinist as Oecalan was, I assume that the peasants could find themselves in agrarian collectives.
One thing the EU could help with is an infrastructural development programme for this region, but it has to be insured that the money would not end up in the pockets of the already rich corrupt regional lords.

The PKK is the most militant of the kurdish parties and likes to show off that they are the only ones who dare to fight Turkey.

On the other hand more than 150 Turkish soldiers (probably mostly conscripts) have been killed by the PKK since the armistice was broken this spring. Due to public pressure, the Turkish government can not wait anymore and is forced to react.

Thanks for that Info, appreciate it.

Quoting Virgin744 (Reply 39):
Don't tell me theres no double standards here!!!

that's what Ive noted each and every post here. Double standards clearly exist, and Turkey should piss off the US by going into Iraq.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Turkey Border Clash

Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:28 pm

Quoting Virgin744 (Reply 42):
Where, in my statement does it say that I am advocating that!???

You are criticizing the lack of active response to go after the PKK. So if you are not suggesting going after them, what exactly are you suggesting?

Or are you good at criticizing but not much good at offering solutions?
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Turkey Border Clash

Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:47 pm

It seems that for the Iraqi Kurds the PKK are bastards, but they are "our bastards".

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Turkey Border Clash

Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:11 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 45):
It seems that for the Iraqi Kurds the PKK are bastards, but they are "our bastards".

Exactly. Theirs is a tribal culture, and in such cultures they stick together.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Turkey Border Clash

Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:53 am

Quoting Virgin744 (Reply 39):
o, the PKK terrorists have ambushed and kidnapped 8 Turkish soldiers - Irsael went to war with Palestine over 2 soldiers and the world stood by and bitched at the Hezbolla to release them or pay consequences. The PKK has killed and kidnapped these soldiers who were in Turkey defending their own country.

-
And the Turks do NOT even threaten to bomb the runways of Baghdad International Airport and all the highway bridges between Basra and Mossul ! Aren't they nice !

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 40):
advocating for the US going to war with the Iraqi Kurds?

-
nobody is advocating for the US going to war with the Iraqi Kurds. People are just advocating for the US to tolerate the Turks to clean up in Kurdistan. When the Israelis attacked a whole country, your government gave them 2 months. As the Turks only want to attack in a semi-independent region you ought to give them 5 months. And of course, your president should stop to argue against war against terrorists, and no longer should stand into the way of the struggle against terrorism and should abstain from shielding and protecting terrorists. As easy as that !

[Edited 2007-10-22 23:19:14]

[Edited 2007-10-22 23:23:21]

[Edited 2007-10-22 23:25:51]

[Edited 2007-10-22 23:29:34]
 
LAXspotter
Posts: 3227
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:16 pm

RE: Turkey Border Clash

Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:54 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 47):
. When the Israelis attacked a whole country, your government gave them 2 months. As the Turks only want to attack in a semi-independent region you ought to give them 5 months. And of course, your president should stop to argue against war against terrorists, and no longer should stand into the way of the struggle against terrorism and should abstain from shielding and protecting terrorists. As easy as that !

hence double standards, its quite simple. No ifts or buts, that what I've hard from this adminstration for the last 78 months.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Turkey Border Clash

Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:40 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 48):

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 47):
When the Israelis attacked a whole country, your government gave them 2 months. As the Turks only want to attack in a semi-independent region you ought to give them 5 months. And of course, your president should stop to argue against war against terrorists, and no longer should stand into the way of the struggle against terrorism and should abstain from shielding and protecting terrorists. As easy as that !

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[quote=LAXspotter,reply=48]
hence double standards, its quite simple. No ifts or buts, that what I've hard from this adminstration for the last 78 months.

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well, it is not just only double standards. It is passive support for terrorism and terrorists, it is guarding and harbouring terrorists, and it is a stance against the Struggle against Terrorism

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