RJdxer
Topic Author
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UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:59 pm

Somedays you just can't win. Try and help stop supposed man made global warming, get lumped in with with some evil people.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071027/...;_ylt=ApDyQrcYQQr6NaxO51W09ZvQOrgF


The world price of wheat doubled in one year and the price of corn quadrupled, leaving poor countries, especially in Africa, unable to pay for the imported food needed to feed their people, he said. And poor people in those countries are unable to pay the soaring prices for the food that does come in, he added.

"So it's a crime against humanity" to devote agricultural land to biofuel production, Ziegler said a news conference. "What has to be stopped is ... the growing catastrophe of the massacre (by) hunger in the world," he said.


Where the heck is Nobel Peace prize winner Al Gore? He ought to be able to solve this in nothing flat.

 laughing 
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Klaus
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:07 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Thread starter):
Somedays you just can't win. Try and help stop supposed man made global warming, get lumped in with with some evil people.

Intensive farming under massive primary energy input and even more massive consumption of water for so-called "bio fuel" is simply idiotic and makes no sense for the environment whatsoever anyway - it is purely smoke and mirrors for political ends. And this deception attempt is crashing and burning here.

The only "bio fuel" that can deserve the name is the one generated from biological waste products which would be dumped otherwise. Such projects exist and are indeed promising, but they will never be able to substitute fossil fuels on their own. Especially not it they are used as inefficently as they are now.
 
RJdxer
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:20 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
And this deception attempt is crashing and burning here.

I didn't make the claim, your vaunted UN did. You know, the one that was dead on about global warming? You want to shoot someone, shoot the guy at the UN.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
Klaus
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:22 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 2):
I didn't make the claim, your vaunted UN did.

"The UN" recommended intensive farming for fuel? Where and when?
 
jamincan
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:47 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 2):
I didn't make the claim, your vaunted UN did. You know, the one that was dead on about global warming? You want to shoot someone, shoot the guy at the UN.

I think you misunderstood Klaus. Ziegler's argument is hardly new; although calling biofuels a crime against humanity is maybe a tad dramatic. I've been hearing this criticism regarding fuel v. food for years now. Personally I think (or hope) that developments with regard to cellulose-based ethanol will largely replace corn- or sugar-based. Not only does it use waste material, it is far more effective at reducing GHG emissions over corn-based ethanol.
 
777236ER
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:49 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):

Intensive farming under massive primary energy input and even more massive consumption of water for so-called "bio fuel" is simply idiotic and makes no sense for the environment whatsoever anyway - it is purely smoke and mirrors for political ends. And this deception attempt is crashing and burning here.

The only "bio fuel" that can deserve the name is the one generated from biological waste products which would be dumped otherwise. Such projects exist and are indeed promising, but they will never be able to substitute fossil fuels on their own. Especially not it they are used as inefficently as they are now.

Althought you often go on about stuff like this, I've never seen you make any reasonable suggestion of how we're meant to power the future. You don't support large-scale biofuels, you don't support nuclear power. In fact, the only thing you've ever suggested is that we should improve energy efficiency, which is fine but will never reduce the nett demand.

So what are your thoughts?
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AirTranTUS
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanit

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:25 pm

Use hydrogen and nuclear power.
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wingnut767
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:37 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 3):
Quoting RJdxer (Reply 2):
I didn't make the claim, your vaunted UN did.

"The UN" recommended intensive farming for fuel? Where and when?

The IPCC also recommend the expansion of large-scale agroforestry monoculture plantations. These plantations, which will include GM trees, are similarly linked to ecosystem destruction. Monoculture expansion is a major threat to the livelihoods and food sovereignty of communities many of which are already bearing the brunt of climate change disasters caused largely by the fossil fuel emissions of industrialised countries.

http://www.commondreams.org/news2007/0504-11.htm

But a statement from one coalition of largely environmental groups largely based in Europe, including the Global Forest Coalition, Biofuel Watch, and the Gaia Foundation, roundly condemns the IPCC's biofuels option as "a climate disaster in the making." Expanding the use of biofuels, they argue, could threaten rain forests as countries replace large tracts with plantations of biofuel crops, such as palms and soybeans.

http://www.chesapeakeclimate.org/news/news_detail.cfm?id=343

“IPCC Assessment report: Environmental Groups Condemn IPCC Call For Large Scale Biofuels as a Climate Disaster In The Making”

reads

“The IPCC Assessment Report Four has made a compelling case on what global warming means to the planet this century. It is the IPCC´s strongest warning yet that drastic cuts in carbon emissions are vital if we are to avoid a catastrophic acceleration of climate change. Environmental groups are, however, deeply concerned that the IPCC’s Summary for Policy Makers on climate mitigation, released earlier today, includes a recommendation for large- scale expansion of biofuels from monocultures, including from GM crops, even though monoculture expansion is a driving force behind the destruction of rainforests and other carbon sinks and reservoirs, thus accelerating climate change. The IPCC also recommend the expansion of large-scale agroforestry monoculture plantations. These plantations, which will include GM trees, are similarly linked to ecosystem destruction. Monoculture expansion is a major threat to the livelihoods and food sovereignty of communities many of which are already bearing the brunt of climate change disasters caused largely by the fossil fuel emissions of industrialised countries.

Almuth Ernsting of Biofuelwatch stated: “It is already clear that the burgeoning demand for biofuels that has been created to reduce greenhouse gas emissions is actually increasing them by deforestation in the tropics and accelerating climate change. So far, only 1% of global transport fuel comes from biofuels, yet already biofuels cause steep rises in grain and vegetable oil prices, threatening the food security of poor people and spurring agricultural expansion into forests and grasslands, on which we depend for a stable climate”.

http://climatesci.colorado.edu/2007/.../what-hydra-has-the-ipcc-unleased/
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Acheron
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:53 pm

Rather they use sugarcane-based fuel instead of corn, if they really must use food. If corns' massive farming for the purpose of fuel moves foward, the prices will skyrocket even more and who knows what effect will that have in poor countries that don't/can't produce corn. More famines around the globe, etc.

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 6):
Use hydrogen

Until your car goes Hindenburg on your butt. Big grin
 
JGPH1A
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:04 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 8):
Until your car goes Hindenburg on your butt.

Oh, the humanity !
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wingnut767
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:16 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 8):
Rather they use sugarcane-based fuel instead of corn, if they really must use food. If corns' massive farming for the purpose of fuel moves foward, the prices will skyrocket even more and who knows what effect will that have in poor countries that don't/can't produce corn. More famines around the globe, etc.

In Florida the sugarcane lobby is pushing that. The problem is that they are eating up more of the everglades to plant it. They also require more water which is already in short supply due to the overbuilding. The everglades is being assaulted on all fronts and the last thing we need is more sugarcane just to make a biofuel.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanit

Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:04 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
Quoting RJdxer (Thread starter):
Somedays you just can't win. Try and help stop supposed man made global warming, get lumped in with with some evil people.

Intensive farming under massive primary energy input and even more massive consumption of water for so-called "bio fuel" is simply idiotic and makes no sense for the environment whatsoever anyway - it is purely smoke and mirrors for political ends. And this deception attempt is crashing and burning here.

The only "bio fuel" that can deserve the name is the one generated from biological waste products which would be dumped otherwise. Such projects exist and are indeed promising, but they will never be able to substitute fossil fuels on their own. Especially not it they are used as inefficently as they are now.

Funny, so far complaints have been that the subsidised overproducton of agrarian products from the US, Canada and the EU caused these countries to dump their excess at below cost prices in third world countries, making it economically impossible for local farmers to compete with those subsidised imports and driving them into poverty, with the resulting migration to cities to look for a job and the development of slums for those who don't find work. Now farmers in Europe and North America are moving away from food crops to produce biofuel plants. This causes the prices for food crops to rise in third world countries, making it, at least theoretically , possible for farmers in third world countries to grow crops with a profit they can live off and there are complaints.

One thing though I have a beef about is "Bio Diesel". Bio Diesel is an attempt to convert a renewable material (raw vegetable oil) into a fuel modern high precision diesel engines can digest. Bio Diesel is a vegetable oil / methanol ester. To produce bio diesel you don't only need the vegetable oil (in Germany mostly rape seed oil) , but also methanol, which is produced either as a byproduct of the petrochemical industry or, also highly energy consuming, from wood waste. Then the methanol and the vegetable oil have to react, again using energy (by being boiled with sulphuric acid being present).
IMO it would make more sense to build low tech diesel engines, which can use the raw vegetable oil instead off having to use the converted bio diesel.
This was one reason I was looking for an older Land Rover diesel engine, not the modern, FADEC controlled ones.
The old, mechanical engine can run on pure raw vegetable oil if it is preheated (a simple heat exchanger in the coolant system will do the job, for the first 10 km needed to warm up the engine after starting you'll need a second tank with conventional diesel and a transfer valve, also you'll need to run the engine on normal diesel for the last 5 or so km to wash the vwegetable oil out of the injector pump before shutting it down), or you can mix vegetable oil with diesel at a 50-50% ratio.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
JGPH1A
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:05 pm

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 10):
In Florida the sugarcane lobby is pushing that.

Here's a radical notion - there's a very large island not 90 miles from Florida covered quite literally from end to end in sugar cane - how about buying that to make fuel with ?
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777236ER
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:09 pm

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 6):
Use hydrogen and nuclear power.

Nuclear power, fine. But where do you get the hydrogen from? Electrolyse water, using nuclear power? Or maybe solar/wind/
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wingnut767
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:04 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 12):
Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 10):
In Florida the sugarcane lobby is pushing that.

Here's a radical notion - there's a very large island not 90 miles from Florida covered quite literally from end to end in sugar cane - how about buying that to make fuel with ?

As usual you are missing the point of the thread. Bio fuel sucks.
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Bofredrik
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:11 pm

Biofuel is one of the most strong selling points
that companies like SAAB, Volvo etc use today
here in Sweden. The all say that with a biofuel
car are you doing us "all" a favour for the climate.

http://www.duemotori.com/news/eco_ca...osition_in_environmental_class.php
 
N231YE
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:02 pm

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 14):
As usual you are missing the point of the thread. Bio fuel sucks.

I disagree. Since the United States is Addicted to Oil, and American's don't want to reduce their oil consumption (which funds terrorism, and I thought we were fighting a "war on terrorism"), the next best thing to do is to make biofuels-and burn our own stuff.

I agree with purpose-growing crops for biofuels as crap, however, biofuels made from waste are probably an answer to the United States oil addiction problem. All of that agriculture waste, old candy, and even grass clippings from your lawn, are the way to go.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 11):
subsidised overproduction of agrarian products from the US

 checkmark  Its amazing that this is so overlooked and forgotten about. The United States subsidizes farmers to plant as much corn and soybeans as they can, in order to artificially set prices higher. With a real demand, farmers can grow as much as they want, and in addition to donating large portions of it to 3rd world countries, so the prices can be kept higher with the elimination of these subsidies (meaning lower taxes...or money used for other things).

Quoting RJdxer (Thread starter):
Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity  

So is the USA's oil addition that funds terrorism and blood-baths in Nigeria not a crime against humanity?
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:54 pm

Current biofuel crops only use part of the plant to create biofuel, like the oil from the seeds. Future technologies can use the whole plant. E.g. a German university (IIRC it was Potsdam university) devloped a procedure to break up any organic matter (plant residues, meat etc.) in an exothermic process (means, you only heat the mix for starting the reaction, once it runs, it produces excess heat, more than enough to sustain the reaction) using a watery solution of citric acid as a catalist.
Basically the organic material is placed in an autoclave together with water and citric acid and then heated. At pressures of about 200 atmospheres and about 300 centigrades, the organic matter breaks down. Depending on the conditions you'll either get oily hydrcarbons or, as a final product, coal dust.

Another process currently tried out is growing algea in huge glass tanks using the CO2 emitted by power stations.
The algea are later filtered out and processed for bio fuels.

Then, during and right after WW2, oil was rare in Europe. Many cars had retorts mounted on them, where wood was pyrolised to produce a gas, which could be used to run a petrol engine.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
JGPH1A
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:57 pm

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 14):
Bio fuel sucks.

Why does it suck ? If it works, and doesn't require more energy to produce, and doesn't drive food prices sky-high, why not use bio-fuel ?
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Klaus
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:22 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 18):
Why does it suck ? If it works, and doesn't require more energy to produce, and doesn't drive food prices sky-high, why not use bio-fuel ?

One of the main problems is that intensive farming for "bio fuel" requires large amounts of primary energy and even larger amounts of fresh water. It just doesn't make environmental sense, except for a superficial political diversion - pacifying the subsidy-hungry agrarian industry is a welcome side effect, on both sides of the Atlantic.

Waste processing is another issue, of course. And that is where it makes sense.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:51 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 19):
One of the main problems is that intensive farming for "bio fuel" requires large amounts of primary energy and even larger amounts of fresh water.

This is not so much of a problem if farmers use the traditional method of crop rotation (e.g. in a four year cycle, first rape seed for fuel, then wheat, then potatoes, then let the field lie fallow for a year or e.g. plant some leguminose plants , which get plowed under to recreate the soil). This will reduced the need of artificial fertilizers and pesticides.
Also, the crops need to be adapted to the climate. In central and northern Eurpoe, e.g. water is not a problem, rainfall brings more than enough.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
wingnut767
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:54 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 19):
One of the main problems is that intensive farming for "bio fuel" requires large amounts of primary energy and even larger amounts of fresh water. It just doesn't make environmental sense, except for a superficial political diversion - pacifying the subsidy-hungry agrarian industry is a welcome side effect, on both sides of the Atlantic.

Also the effects of farmers cutting down more forrest area to plant crops. The amount of tropical rain forrest that has been cut down to grow crops for Bio fuel in S America has been steadily growing.
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andessmf
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:47 pm

Bio-fuels work, when derived from WASTE products. Unfortunately, most ethanol in the US is not.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:58 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 22):
Unfortunately, most ethanol in the US is not.

Converting corn to ethanol is a very energy consuming task anyway. First the starch of the grain has to be broken down to sugar, then the sugar solution is being fermented. The ethanol water mix has then to be distilled to produce the pure ethanol, which requires a lot of heat again.
And then, the ethanol process only uses the grains, not the stalks etc..

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
wingnut767
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:05 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 18):
Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 14):
Bio fuel sucks.

Why does it suck ? If it works, and doesn't require more energy to produce, and doesn't drive food prices sky-high, why not use bio-fuel ?

Most studies that I have seen on ethanol say that it is energy negative at best. With the primary energy going in and worse mileage coming out in your car we might as well drill until a better alternative to ethanol comes along. Why waste the money and give it to the corn lobbies. Everyone worries about "big oil" but you also need to keep your eye on the big corn lobby and the subsidies that they receive for ethanol. And also more studies have come out recently citing Ethanol as producing more pollution than Gas.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 20):
This is not so much of a problem if farmers use the traditional method of crop rotation (e.g. in a four year cycle, first rape seed for fuel, then wheat, then potatoes, then let the field lie fallow for a year or e.g. plant some leguminose plants , which get plowed under to recreate the soil). This will reduced the need of artificial fertilizers and pesticides.
Also, the crops need to be adapted to the climate

Part of the problem in the states is that they are not rotating but going with the flow of subsidies for the corn. And as I stated earlier the growing sugarcane crops here in Florida are an ever larger drain on a already stretched water supply. Not to mention the pressure being put on the wetlands of the everglades.

Also I should be more specific when it comes to saying bio fuels are a waste. I am mostly talking about the ethanol that we use in the US.
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Klaus
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:14 am

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 24):
Also I should be more specific when it comes to saying bio fuels are a waste. I am mostly talking about the ethanol that we use in the US.

It's a similar picture with the "bio diesel" subsidized over here. Cutting down the subsidies for it is the correct way to go (which is happening right now to an extent).

if something should be subsidized at all, it's the development and at least the initial deployment of waste-to-fuel processes (as described by MD11Engineer above, for example).
 
wingnut767
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:19 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 25):
if something should be subsidized at all, it's the development and at least the initial deployment of waste-to-fuel processes (as described by MD11Engineer above, for example).

See we actually do agree on somethings  Wink

If we are going for alternative fuels the money needs to be well spent instead of feeding the lobbyist. Companies are realizing that going green can make them more greenbacks. Our tax dollars need to be spent wisely
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Klaus
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:26 am

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 26):
See we actually do agree on somethings

Disturbing, I know! Big grin

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 26):
If we are going for alternative fuels the money needs to be well spent instead of feeding the lobbyist. Companies are realizing that going green can make them more greenbacks. Our tax dollars need to be spent wisely

Indeed.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:37 am

On the other hand, if our farmers start growing more biofuel crops (of course observing the sensible rules of farming, which evolved over centuries, like crop rotation) and less of an excess of food crops, which currently swamp the wold markets, giving e.g. Peon Juan in Mexico no chance to sell his crops on the local market and earn a decent living, wouldn't if give Juan a better chance e.g. to grow local food crops and get him and his family fed?

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
bagpiper
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:29 am

We use oil, and we are called pigs for using up resources.

We use ethanol, but we are committing genocide for wiping out hungry people.

We kill animals to eat as food, and feed others - thus preventing this genocide - but get in trouble for harming innocent animals.

We go back to oil, and drill more, but we cause problems in the environment.

We stop driving as much to prevent global warming, but then get told not driving also causes global warming.

We stop driving as much to reduce the amount of emissions, but a nobel prize winner flies around on his private jet.

We use nuclear energy, but get in trouble because of the damage it might do.

We breathe, using precious oxygen, while trees are being cut down in massive amounts - slowing the production of oxygen.


We live, therefore we get in trouble.
 
baroque
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:12 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 27):
Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 26):
See we actually do agree on somethings

Disturbing, I know! Big grin

This is a highly disturbing development, signs of peace breaking out. Sell munitions stocks immediately.  Smile  Big grin

It all comes back to the disturbing reality that in terms of energy costs, not a great deal beats dear old fossil fuels, especially flow oil. And "dear" is of course a pun, in that the hidden costs may be considerable.
 
andessmf
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:40 am

Quoting Bagpiper (Reply 29):
We live, therefore we get in trouble.

STOP LIVING!!!  silly 

Quoting Baroque (Reply 30):
not a great deal beats dear old fossil fuels

It all has to be worked into a comprehensive plan to get the most of out every power source available, with the minimum of harm.
 
Acheron
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:00 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 30):
t all comes back to the disturbing reality that in terms of energy costs, not a great deal beats dear old fossil fuels, especially flow oil. And "dear" is of course a pun, in that the hidden costs may be considerable.

Well, we have to consider that oil has been around for a little over 100 years and you just can't beat 100 years of development, cost reduction and "adiction" in a couple of decades. Nor you can ignore the fact that the lobby power of the oil companies its probably far greater than any other lobby(except weapons and drugs). Not to mention that the process to turn oil into something usable it quite "simple" compared to others means of getting fuel.
 
andessmf
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:54 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 32):

He is discussing the 'energy content' of specific fuels.

This section explains well why ethanol should NOT be used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_efficiency#Energy_content_of_fuel
 
wingnut767
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:17 pm

In an important new paper published on 1 August 2007 in Atmospheric Chemistry and Physics Discussions, Crutzen et al. (2007) From Co2science.org

we describe two important scientific findings that refute the "creation care" contention of England's Sir John Houghton that "very large growth" in the biofuels industry will be required in taking the moral high-road to help slow CO2-induced global warming. Those findings are that: (1) in order to produce enough biofuels to offset a significant amount of fossil fuel usage, humanity would have to employ a large portion of earth's remaining arable land and freshwater resources, which would result in the driving of innumerable species of plants and animals to extinction due to massive habitat loss, and (2) forestation of the land area needed for biofuel production would likely remove much more carbon from the atmosphere than what would not be put into the air by using biofuels in the place of fossil fuels. Here, we describe yet a third way in which replacing fossil fuels with biofuels may be detrimental to earth's climate and the biosphere.

The ultimate consequence of this phenomenon, as best the four researchers could evaluate it, is that "when the extra N2O emission from biofuel production is calculated in 'CO2-equivalent' global warming terms, and compared with the quasi-cooling effect of 'saving' emissions of fossil fuel derived CO2, the outcome is that the production of commonly used biofuels, such as biodiesel from rapeseed and bioethanol from corn (maize), can contribute as much or more to global warming by N2O emissions than cooling by fossil fuel savings."

http://www.co2science.org/scripts/CO...ienceB2C/articles/V10/N43/EDIT.jsp
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dl021
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:59 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 12):
Here's a radical notion - there's a very large island not 90 miles from Florida covered quite literally from end to end in sugar cane - how about buying that to make fuel with ?

There's a thought.

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 14):
As usual you are missing the point of the thread. Bio fuel sucks.

Well, I think his irony may be a little subtle for you.  Smile

Quoting N231YE (Reply 16):
Its amazing that this is so overlooked and forgotten about. The United States subsidizes farmers to plant as much corn and soybeans as they can, in order to artificially set prices higher. With a real demand, farmers can grow as much as they want, and in addition to donating large portions of it to 3rd world countries, so the prices can be kept higher with the elimination of these subsidies (meaning lower taxes...or money used for other things).

I've said that for years. There must be a reason we're not doing that. I have heard that some NGOs talked a couple of African leaders out of accepting corn donations from us due to their being GM products. I have news......telling people not to eat the GM corn is asking them to die of starvation in many cases. The ability of our world to feed the population is going to be outstripped at some point. I wonder if anyone has done the math concerning arable land x productive potential versus the number of people who need to be fed in a hundred or two hundred years.
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andessmf
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:54 pm

Is it me, or do others feel the same way I do:

Some people are just not interested in solving problems, but are interested in ways to keep themselves relevant by proposing solutions that will require future solutions, etc.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanit

Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:07 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 35):
I have heard that some NGOs talked a couple of African leaders out of accepting corn donations from us due to their being GM products

A big problem in many of these countries is that the cheap, donated agrarian products grown in the US and Europe by using subsidies have killed the local farming industry. Another problem is that in many third world countries, especially in Africa, traditional methods of growing crops or breeding cattle are still being used, which, e.g. in arid climates, could sustain a small population, but with the increased size of population these very inefficient methods lead to overgrazing and exhaustion of the soil followed by erosion of the important top layer.
Look e.g. at the Israelis, who developed hight tech methods to grow crops on desert soil, wasting a minimum of water by dripping it directly on the roots of the plants. I think it would be worthwile to introduce modern, but enviromentally friendly methods of agriculture, so that the local farmers can earn a livelyhood again, money which will then be injected into the local economy, which would again create jobs and develop the country. One problem though is that farmers worldwide (I'm living in a rural village myself) are extremely conservative with an attitude:" If it was good enough for my great-grandfather, it is good enough for me and my children".

Jan

[Edited 2007-10-29 14:09:59]
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Klaus
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:21 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 37):
A big problem in many of these countries is that the cheap, donated agrarian products grown in the US and Europe by using subsidies have killed the local farming industry.

Which incidentally is one of the main problems in Afghanistan: The local farmers were basically driven out of business through well-meant but destructive "food aid" in the form of grain being delivered by the west instead of being bought locally.

The "solution": When grain doesn't pay any more, revert to poppy farming. Much better market for opium. Unfortunately the drug trade also keeps the warlords/drug barons in power who also collaborate with and at least partially finance the Taliban...  yuck 

Add to that the devastation done by GM crops which have ruined countless farmers in the third world who are now unable to grow their own seeding stocks any more. GM crops are almost exclusively good for the agrarian industry in the west.

They have next to nothing to do with the fight against world hunger - worse, they have begun to add to the problem. It's almost exclusively about reaching monopoly power in the agro business, and supplying taylor-made chemicals which are supplied by the same corporations.

It's a dead end in almost any respect - everything the GM industry promises can be reached easier, cheaper and more effectively without genetic manipulation.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:40 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 38):
Add to that the devastation done by GM crops which have ruined countless farmers in the third world who are now unable to grow their own seeding stocks any more. GM crops are almost exclusively good for the agrarian industry in the west.

They have next to nothing to do with the fight against world hunger - worse, they have begun to add to the problem. It's almost exclusively about reaching monopoly power in the agro business, and supplying taylor-made chemicals which are supplied by the same corporations.

It's a dead end in almost any respect - everything the GM industry promises can be reached easier, cheaper and more effectively without genetic manipulation.

Well, in the end traditional breeding and even natural selection are gene manpulation too. The problem here lies mostly with the existing intellectual rights system, that e.g. a gene, a living being or a part thereoff can be patented and used to create the mentioned monopolies.
IMO the crops also have to be suited to the enviroment, e.g. it makes little sense to try to grow rice in an arid zone. There are crops, which can withstand heat and drought better.

BTW, the second hand clothes collected in those big boxes e.g. in Germany and other countries have killed the textile indistry in many African countries. Contrary to what most people think the collected clothes are not being kept for disasters (even by the Red Cross or similar institutions). They sell them to commercial companies, who first siort the clothes. The obvious rags get torn up and are being sold as industrial cleaning rags, which is OK, but the wearable clothes get shipped to poor countries and sold there at prices, with which the local tailors can not compete. Result: New slum dwellers without the means of earning a living, who need the "donated" food, which destroyed his farmer neighbour's business. But it is a good business for the European and American companies (And China too, they are now starting to flood e.g. Africa with cheap clothes too).

Jan
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andessmf
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:29 pm

As I heard a farmer from Kenya say once:

'All we need is for the West to open their markets to our products, and we will be fine.'
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:31 pm

We just need to start mass-producing these:



After all, if they can power a DeLorean through time...


 Wink
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:41 am

Maybe those countries in Africa should grow enough food for their population or trade amoungst themselves for it. If they can't do this because of a) unsuitable land for crops or b) too much population, then that is telling us something now isn't it? Better to spend aid money on teaching birthcontrol / contraceptives so that their population is at a level that the land can support.
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baroque
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 42):
on teaching birthcontrol / contraceptives so that their population is at a level that the land can support.

A subject that for some strange reason never get much of a run these days.

One of the curious side effects of the spread of democracy is that there is a population explosion in Indonesia following the departure of the unlamented Suharto. He did however, have one useful policy, two children are enough and that held growth rates down. Now he has gone, the Islamic groups for the most part have a policy not dissimilar from a certain well known church based in Italy. And population is soaring. And it is soaring at a time when their cities are spreading across some of the best rice producing areas. Stay tuned!!

Let us hope that the next US Pres can make birth control an acceptable topic again. What is it with some religions that they think exponential growth can go on for ever?
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:53 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 43):
Now he has gone, the Islamic groups for the most part have a policy not dissimilar from a certain well known church based in Italy.

Of course. Empoverished, uneducated masses are the backbone of any religion.

Jan
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MD11Engineer
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:09 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 42):
Maybe those countries in Africa should grow enough food for their population or trade amoungst themselves for it. If they can't do this because of a) unsuitable land for crops or b) too much population, then that is telling us something now isn't it? Better to spend aid money on teaching birthcontrol / contraceptives so that their population is at a level that the land can support.

They don't do it for several reasons:
1) flooding of their markets with overtly cheap, subsidized (or "donated") foods and clothes from the EU or North America. No matter what the local farmers do, they can not sell their crops cheaper than the imports. As a result they give up farming for food and go to the cities looking for work, mostly ending up in urban slums.

2) Antiquated farming methods, partly due to conservatism ("We have always done it like this!") and partly because they don't have the intial capital to buy modern farming equipment.

3) Corrupt structures, e.g. Zimbabwe was the grain store of Africa. The current dictator disowned the mostly white experienced farmers and gave their land to his cronies, who in most places knew jack sh*t about farming.

There is probably enough arable land to feed the population, but it has to be used properly and the local farmers need an incentive that they can make a living from farming, which doesn't happen as long as we keep on dumping our excess agrarian products on them and at the same time set up trade barriers preventing them from selling their goods in our countries.

Jan
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Klaus
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RE: UN Expert:Biofuels Now A Crime Against Humanity

Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:05 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 39):
Well, in the end traditional breeding and even natural selection are gene manpulation too.

No, the differences are too great. Genetic manipulation makes much more severe changes than you could by breeding, and much more isolated ones out of their original context.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 39):
The problem here lies mostly with the existing intellectual rights system, that e.g. a gene, a living being or a part thereoff can be patented and used to create the mentioned monopolies.

Agreed - patents and monopolies are the main driving motivation behind GM crops, not actual improvements (which have been rather disappoinging).

The eradication of hunger is primarily a matter of political and organisational changes, not genetic ones. GM crops have a rather bleak history of delivering minor short-term improvements and severe disadvantages in the longer term.

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