zak
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Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:43 pm

i have a few questions to taiwanese users regarding the "capitalist china from the mainland with a communist veil" policy that there is one china, enforcing it across its business and other associates:

- do you feel discriminated against if companies/webpages openly embrace "one china" policy to avoid fuss with the mighty mainland?
- regardless if you feel discriminated, do you notice this pattern frequently? if so, where is it found commonly? where not so commonly?

[Edited 2007-10-28 13:44:41]
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dl021
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:16 pm

I don't know about the questions posed, since they're put to Taiwanese....

but the thread title seems to ask if the One China Policy impacts the Taiwanese negatively....

....I'd have to say that it certainly does....how would you feel if your democracy was replaced with a dictatorship?
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:51 pm

I'm a first generation immigrant to USA and my family had been living in Taiwan for at least 5+ generations. One of my ancestors was battling the Dutch when Dutch came to Taiwan (that's how long my family had been in Taiwan). Anyway, regarding China...I feel a lot of times foreigners don't understand the history between China and Taiwan thoroughly thus causing people to misunderstand our conflict. The civil war between the two parties (KMT and CPC) was more than just a war. I can't get into too much details because 1. I, myself, don't completely know the whole details 2. people are gonna say I'm biased because I'm Taiwanese. Now, I don't hate China because my father had two factories in Mainland China and I lived in Cantong and Shanghai for a year. The thing is, how we do things in Taiwan are 60% different than how they do things in China; even the words, characters, vocabularies that we use are very different. To be honest, I think most would agree, Chinese from Mainland China is more aggressive than Taiwanese.

I don't think "one China" would work well in Taiwan though because there are just so much differences between us.




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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:05 pm

How about an extension of the Hong Kong / Macau style "one country - two systems" as guaranteed for the next 40 years (was 50, 10 down already!) ?

I can understand Taiwanese being indignant at that suggestion though, as ROC is an independent nation.
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:11 pm

Quoting Zak (Thread starter):
- do you feel discriminated against if companies/webpages openly embrace "one china" policy to avoid fuss with the mighty mainland?
- regardless if you feel discriminated, do you notice this pattern frequently? if so, where is it found commonly? where not so commonly?

HAH...I just realised I didn't even answer your questions.  tongue  Sorry!

1. I feel somewhat discriminated. We have our government, constitution, President, national anthem, etc we should be seen as a country. Even Hong Kong is recognised as "Hong Kong" instead of "Hong Kong Region". I mean, even A.net put us as "Taiwan Region". I did try to contact the admins about this but they said currently they're not looking into this issue. We used to be "Taiwan" on A.net though. Another thing, it is very discriminative that when we win a gold metal in Olympic Games, we don't get to play our national anthem, we HAVE to play our "flag song". Shouldn't Olympic games be neutral and peaceful? So, although I don't feel particularly fond of this fact, I can understand why companies/webpages want to avoid fuss with Mainland China. I just blame us Taiwanese for not being strong enough...

2. Yes. I notice this pattern VERY frequently. On all the applications, we're Chinese. I guess we're technically Chinese but I mean Caucasians are separated into British and Americans, how come we don't get to be Taiwanese on application forms? There are Japanese, North Korean, South Korean on application forms. I think there should be Chinese and Taiwanese (or at least Mainland Chinese and "Island Chinese"...  tongue  ). The only place I don't see it frequently is in Taiwan.



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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:13 pm

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 3):
How about an extension of the Hong Kong / Macau style "one country - two systems" as guaranteed for the next 40 years (was 50, 10 down already!) ?

This style is not going to work forever. If we agree to that, we're basically agreeing to eliminating our identity and Taiwanese culture within the next century slowly but surely. I doubt many would want their countries to be in that situation...



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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:37 pm

I cannot speak for the people in Republic of China, but in my opinion and experience generally when one country (communist or otherwise) occupies, or has a very strong suppressive influence, over another country, the majority of the population in the occupied/supressed will have strong negative feelings for their occupants, and rightly so.
 
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negative

Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:08 pm

The "One China Policy" is nonsense. The PRC and the ROC are two very different countries. Taiwan is an independent nation by all measures except the fact that it's not recognized as such by the UN since the 1971 GA Resolution 2529; instead, it's officially called "Chinese Taipei" (another bureaucratic turd of a name, second only to FYROM  yuck  ). It's a shame really, and it's a shame to see "Taiwan Region" next to the Taiwanese flag here on A.net. It's been a fully independent nation for over 50 years now. Only the fact that the world plays along with the PRC's delusional claim to sovereignty permits this kind of bullshit to last so long.  yuck 
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:19 pm

Quoting Toast (Reply 7):
Only the fact that the world plays along with the PRC's delusional claim to sovereignty permits this kind of bullshit to last so long. yuck

Like a few weeks ago after the German chancellor Merkel received the Dalai Lama. The PRC imediately canceled several appointments and meetings, with the result that the chairman of the German industrial association critizised the chancellor for spoiling business opportunities with China.

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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:59 pm

Quoting Toast (Reply 7):
Only the fact that the world plays along with the PRC's delusional claim to sovereignty permits this kind of bullshit to last so long.

Exactly right!!
 
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:30 pm

Wow I thought I would offend some A.netter but apparently not. Big grin Thanks for all the support! I just wish one day before I die I can see Taiwanese flag flying in Olympic Games and our national anthem is played if we win another gold metal. Big grin

The "one China" policy has seriously taken its toll on Hong Kong. I know a couple of students from Hong Kong and they really despise this policy. I went to Hong Kong both before 1997 and after 1997 and I definitely feel the difference.

Quoting Toast (Reply 7):
It's a shame really, and it's a shame to see "Taiwan Region" next to the Taiwanese flag here on A.net.

 bigthumbsup   bigthumbsup   bigthumbsup 

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 8):
Like a few weeks ago after the German chancellor Merkel received the Dalai Lama. The PRC imediately canceled several appointments and meetings, with the result that the chairman of the German industrial association critizised the chancellor for spoiling business opportunities with China.

That's how typically PRC deals with people/country who don't do the things they want them to do. Just like the whole heavy metal incidents with toys imported to US from China. They immediately said it's not their fault.



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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:35 pm

Taiwan has 1,000 times more credibility than China on this issue.

For one thing, Taiwan was first colonized by the Dutch, not the Chinese. China had never given a rip about Taiwan when the Dutch showed up and colonized. Only about 250 years later did Taiwan become a Chinese colony in the 1880s.

Since WWII, Taiwan has been its own independent country. It is a democracy just like the USA, since the end of military rule in the 1980s. Taiwan is peaceful, has a free press, and has excellent education, living standards and entertainment. Its population of Taiwanese help to design and produce some of the world's more advanced technology products.

When in doubt, China always makes wild claims about its territory / 3rd hand possessions in world history. Look at China's colonization of Tibet. Tibet was never part of China. But today, most neutral observers agree China has aggressively taken custody of Tibet by making incorrect, and ludicrous historical claims. Like Tibet was always part of China... oh really... obviously that is nonsense. Only in 1959 did Tibet fall to China.

China has low credibility among neutral observers when it comes to territorial claims, and in particular its distortions of regional history. China stretches its coastline claims to the breaking point. It claims nearby islands that appear vulnerable. China conquered Tibet, encroached on India, claims undersea resources, effectively took half of Korea, and claims Taiwan. Even today, China continues to expand by financially buying world resources in Africa, Central Asia and Latin America.

If any colonial power is to claim Taiwan, it should first be Japan (who was granted custody of Taiwan in 1895, forever). This had nothing to do with WWII. There is no treaty saying Japan gave Taiwan back to China in 1945. It just didn't happen. So, the 1895 treaty may still stand today. Japan won't press the issue. Japan lost WWII, but again Taiwan was not conquered during WWII. That was a separate era, during which China willingly gave Taiwan to the Japanese, forever. Japan lost Taiwan in 1945, but to whom? It was never really said.

In 1949, KMT troops invaded Taiwan, which was not necessarily part of China. They just set up command and militarily ruled the island for over 40 years. This does not make Taiwan part of China per se. That conquest in 1949 did not really carry any validity. Taiwan was uncolonized then, and remains uncolonized today. The Chinese colony ended in 1895. The Japanese colony ended in 1945. Since then, Taiwan has not been part of any other nation. Its status is not as a part of any country. It is similar to Antarctica -- a land where no country has successfully claimed ownership.

In this way, the one-China policy of the USA is unfortunate. The USA does not dictate what islands belong to what country. That is done internationally, or it is not done at all. In this case, it was never done at all.

Taiwan has a good-faith record of peaceful world citizenship and high value of production. Taiwan is a good place that has become an advanced modern democracy. For China to exert its will over Taiwan now, is just a domination thing that is compelled by the CPC's historical themes. To admit their enemy, the KMT, survived and created the entity Taiwan, is to create a bunch of uncomfortable comparisons between the CPC and its enemies. If the CPC's enemies created such a nice country, why can't there be opposition parties today? Such questions must be avoided at all costs, even if innocent people must die, or so goes the Chinese policy.
 
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:04 am

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 3):
How about an extension of the Hong Kong / Macau style "one country - two systems" as guaranteed for the next 40 years (was 50, 10 down already!) ?

Yeah....you can have your little democracy until the deadline and then you are S.O.L. So...it's like committing delayed suicide. They'd still lose their democracy.

Quoting Foppishbum (Reply 4):
I mean, even A.net put us as "Taiwan Region

Which is cowardly. The cowtowing of the internet search engines to the PRC is shameful and duplicitous. No better than Quislings. Some things, like freedom of speech, should mean something.... I understand the policy of engagement and the theory that exposure to the internet will democratize that place, but I don't necessarily agree with it. Starving the engine of fuel and exposure will do the same, while supporting actual democracies who could use our patronage and won't take our profits and turn them into weapons pointed at us, or buy up the resources around the world (such as Sudanese or Venezuelan oil) to our detriment.

Quoting Foppishbum (Reply 4):
did try to contact the admins about this but they said currently they're not looking into this issue.

Because it's easier to go along and get along.

Quoting Foppishbum (Reply 4):
We used to be "Taiwan" on A.net though

Used to be the Republic of China in alot of areas. Getting harder to get around the PRC's big stick on the issue for people who are afraid of losing Chinese patronage.

Quoting Foppishbum (Reply 4):
I can understand why companies/webpages want to avoid fuss with Mainland China.

I can too.....I just don't like it

Quoting Foppishbum (Reply 4):
I just blame us Taiwanese for not being strong enough...

Dude...the ROC has been squared off with the PRC since 1948 and faced them down ever since. The only reason they never succumbed was their strength and willingness to stand up to the PRC and grow their democracy. The Taiwanese did not start with democracy, but they have it now, and a society that is progressing freely.

Quoting Toast (Reply 7):
It's been a fully independent nation for over 50 years now. Only the fact that the world plays along with the PRC's delusional claim to sovereignty permits this kind of bullshit to last so long.

Quite true.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 8):
Like a few weeks ago after the German chancellor Merkel received the Dalai Lama. The PRC imediately canceled several appointments and meetings, with the result that the chairman of the German industrial association critizised the chancellor for spoiling business opportunities with China.

Just like when President Bush did the same and people were afraid the Chinese would buy Airbus instead of Boeing. I'd like to see what the Chinese would do if we took our business elsewhere......there's a billion and a half or so people in India/Malaysia/Indonesia, the Phillippines and Thailand who are all living in democracies and would like the work. Hell, the Vietnamese are making more progress than the PRC in the area of personal freedom and democratization.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 11):
It is a democracy just like the USA

well...only with more fistfights in their legislative gatherings.....

Quoting Flighty (Reply 11):
When in doubt, China always makes wild claims about its territory / 3rd hand possessions in world history. Look at China's colonization of Tibet.

Look at what they're trying with the Spratleys and Paracels...

Quoting Flighty (Reply 11):
If the CPC's enemies created such a nice country, why can't there be opposition parties today? Such questions must be avoided at all costs, even if innocent people must die, or so goes the Chinese policy.

Welcome to the world of lie/deny/and counteraccuse!
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:30 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 12):
Dude...the ROC has been squared off with the PRC since 1948 and faced them down ever since. The only reason they never succumbed was their strength and willingness to stand up to the PRC and grow their democracy. The Taiwanese did not start with democracy, but they have it now, and a society that is progressing freely.

I said that because some Taiwanese don't want to officially declare independence and change our maps. People are afraid of war and rightfully so. War is ugly...It's just a shame that there's no peaceful way for us to declare independence. PRC has us in a difficult situation. Right now, technically Mainland China, (outer) Mongolia, and Taiwan are part of ROC's "official government map". But then, if we change out map, then that means we declare our independence...chances are PRC are gonna fire their missiles at us at that instant.

But yea, this thing has been going on for decades. Maybe in the future the new generation PRC leaders will just leave us alone. =|



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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:28 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 8):
The PRC imediately canceled several appointments and meetings, with the result that the chairman of the German industrial association critizised the chancellor for spoiling business opportunities with China.

indeed, such immediate, omnipresent discrimination is why i was curious about this experience. i noticed that due to fear of such chinese reactions, alot of sublte discrimination against taiwan is going on, not only on a political level, such as countries not accepting the independence, but also as subtle as airliners.net now calling taiwan only a region, to explicitly embrace a one china policy. i do assume that such issues are an everyday thing for people from taiwan and wonder where else it exists.
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:38 am

I have a question I hope you can answer.
It has been said in many of the posts above that Taiwan is an independent nation. Personally I also strongly support this notion but the fact remains that Taiwan hasn't yet actually claimed independence.

What I have wondered for quite a while now is why does Taiwan not do so?

Fairly obviously there would be a fierce reaction from China. China is pouring money into developing its military muscle and expanding its capabilities and influence. It could be argued that this makes a good reason for Taiwan not to aggravate its larger neighbour. However China is still currently in absolutely no state to be able to launch any kind of invasion of Taiwan.

I greatly fear however, that this state of affairs will not continue. Within perhaps as little as a decade, China will probably have developed enough strength to be able to carry out a major military campaign against Taiwan. When this happens surely all hope of a truly independent Taiwan will be lost.

So I can't help but think that perhaps Taiwan should declare independence and the sooner the better. Should they summon up the courage do so I am sure many countries, perhaps not immediately, but sooner or later would abandon their One China policies in support of the new country. This situation need only be in effect for a short while for it to become the new international status quo, after which any actions by China against Taiwan could only be considered an act of war by one nation upon another, and the usual Chinese mantra of "other nations have no right to get involved as it is an internal affair", rubbish would no longer stand.

I am sure the above is no doubt full of naivety so tell me, why can it not happen??

On a side note does anyone know if the UK has a One China policy? I am guessing it probably does but I dont know.
 
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:56 am

Quoting Britjap (Reply 15):
What I have wondered for quite a while now is why does Taiwan not do so?

as far as i understand the situation, taiwan prefers to be factually independent but not legally over declaring legal independence and triggering a war with china for something that is something mostly on paper versus a war where people really die.
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:26 am

Quoting Zak (Reply 16):
triggering a war with china for something that is something mostly on paper versus a war where people really die.

I understand that obviously it is no small thing to risk such a thing for something that may not make much actual difference to the daily lives of the people living in Taiwan, but I guess the point of my above question is precisely that, is China currently capable of really taking a war to Taiwan?? Especially with the US backing Taiwan.

Once China becomes really powerful in the next few decades even the US will not be able to prevent aggressive Chinese actions toward Taiwan. Meaning that if they want to declare independence the time to do so it would seem would be now. no?
 
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:48 am

Quoting BritJap (Reply 17):
is China currently capable of really taking a war to Taiwan?? Especially with the US backing Taiwan.

But can China be sure the US would provide full military support? Does the US even know what it would do if China marched into Taiwan?

Quoting BritJap (Reply 17):
Once China becomes really powerful in the next few decades even the US will not be able to prevent aggressive Chinese actions toward Taiwan. Meaning that if they want to declare independence the time to do so it would seem would be now. no?

That seems like a huge gamble to me. Suppose Taiwan declares independence now and China builds the capability to take it within the next few decades... then what?

Quoting Foppishbum (Reply 10):
I went to Hong Kong both before 1997 and after 1997 and I definitely feel the difference.

Pre-1997 Hong Kong played a huge role in my childhood and I always wanted to go back. Because of what I've heard since then, I don't anymore. The Hong Kong I knew no longer exists.
 
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:56 am

Quoting Britjap (Reply 15):
What I have wondered for quite a while now is why does Taiwan not do so?

One reason is that over the last 20 or so years Taiwanese businesses have invested a lot of money in China and a declaration of independence would mean that their property in China would most likely be confiscated.

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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:27 pm

Quoting Toast (Reply 7):
The "One China Policy" is nonsense. The PRC and the ROC are two very different countries. Taiwan is an independent nation by all measures except the fact that it's not recognized as such by the UN since the 1971 GA Resolution 2529; instead, it's officially called "Chinese Taipei" (another bureaucratic turd of a name, second only to FYROM ). It's a shame really, and it's a shame to see "Taiwan Region" next to the Taiwanese flag here on A.net. It's been a fully independent nation for over 50 years now. Only the fact that the world plays along with the PRC's delusional claim to sovereignty permits this kind of bullshit to last so long.

Right on toast. Nice post
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:38 pm

Quoting Britjap (Reply 15):
the fact remains that Taiwan hasn't yet actually claimed independence.

What I have wondered for quite a while now is why does Taiwan not do so?

Fairly obviously there would be a fierce reaction from China. China is pouring money into developing its military muscle and expanding its capabilities and influence. It could be argued that this makes a good reason for Taiwan not to aggravate its larger neighbour. However China is still currently in absolutely no state to be able to launch any kind of invasion of Taiwan.

I greatly fear however, that this state of affairs will not continue. Within perhaps as little as a decade, China will probably have developed enough strength to be able to carry out a major military campaign against Taiwan. When this happens surely all hope of a truly independent Taiwan will be lost.

So I can't help but think that perhaps Taiwan should declare independence and the sooner the better.

Exactly. Taiwan's international isolation is increasing exponentially, as they're currently down to only 24 diplomatic allies, half of those being in Latin America. And the recent move by Costa Rica (one of the most respected democracies in the region) to recognize China could have a domino effect on the island's few remaining friends in this part of the world. President Arias described China as a "reality that we could no longer ignore."

China's military might is also increasing exponentially. In other words, Taiwan is getting crushed on the diplomatic front right now, and in a few years the mainland will also be in a position to pummel the island into submission militarily.

So, get busy declaring your independence (now) or get busy preparing for assimilation.
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:38 pm

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 21):
So, get busy declaring your independence (now) or get busy preparing for assimilation.

I personally gave up on declaring independence. If you've been to Taiwan, you'll see lots of people are still in the delusion of "one China but separate systems" policy. I don't know why but many Taiwanese are just not...brave enough.  Sad We're taking baby steps to put Taiwan on our passports, our post office is renamed to Taiwan Post, there are several other things but then the minority party in Taiwan (currently KMT) is having a hard time dealing with these baby steps. Anyway, I hope I can do something about this situation but, frankly, I'm too powerless to influence anything. Blah...politics, I can never fully understand it.

P.S. MY first step would be convincing A.net admins to change "Taiwan Region" to "Taiwan"!!! Big grin Although I asked, they're not doing anything about it.  cry 


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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:33 pm

An interesting anecdote - a member of my family is a senior bureaucrat in India's finance/trade ministry. There have been recent overtures toward increasing trade and security ties between the countries, that have been conducted without much publicity until recently, like we do with our significant ties to Israel.

This is because the Chinese have been extremely miffed at us for about half a century, primarily because we've hosted the Dalai Lama ever since he and his entourage fled Lhasa in the 1950s, and essentially told the Chinese to go take a hike when they demanded his return and otherwise end any co-operation to the Tibetans. Oh yes, there have been border disputes and general strategic rivalries etc, but that's off topic.

So this person went to Taiwan as part of a team to discuss trade and security ties at the invitation of the Taiwanese. The trip went very well, the Taiwanese were very gracious hosts and other than the fact that most of the Indian delegation was terrified of the exotic food, and generally incompetent at using chopsticks, which the Taiwanese didn't appear to have been aware of in advance.

However, both on arrival and departure at the airport and elsewhere, the Indian delegation were hurriedly whisked through by dark-suited official escorts, and their identities were kept quiet. There seemed to be a premium on ensuring everything was conducted with a minimum of publicity of any kind. Rather interesting. Does it happen to delegations from other nations ? It's rather sad that general diplomatic ties have to be conducted in this manner.
 
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:02 pm

Taiwan and India would be an interesting strategic partnership. India is big enough to be able to stand up against China and doesn't have too much money tied down in China. Also India and Taiwan are both democracies. If India would recognise Taiwan's independence, it would probably start a domino effect of other countries not bending over for China anymore and would create a strategic balance in Asia. On the other hand lots of Taiwanese capital would find it's way into India. IMO a win-win situation for both.

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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting Britjap (Reply 15):
the fact remains that Taiwan hasn't yet actually claimed independence.

What I have wondered for quite a while now is why does Taiwan not do so?

Slowly, slowly... even though Taiwan is factually independent, the claim to an own Taiwanese nation is far from uncontested in Taiwan. While many people may wish for it (Foppishburn being one of them), the KMT is still a major political force in Taiwan and they'll never ever acknowledge Taiwanese independence. So, if Taiwan declared independence, a military intervention from the Mainland would be only one of the possible dangers; a civil war or something closely resembling one would be another.

I for one support One China in the long run. I see the two countries as both basically Chinese, culturally very close and speaking the same language (the differences are minor really; and traditional versus simplified characters are not a huge issue in the digital age IMO). The only major difference is that one part went through the disruptive experience of communism, while the other did not. But this is equally true for the two Germanys in the Cold War, and they could form a united nation as well.

That being said, however, I would wish for Taiwan to declare independence soon. The beginning of the Olympics would be a great time for that, as China wouldn't be able to respond militarily, and after four weeks would be unlikely to do so. The Mainland needs to stop treating Taiwan like a "renegade province" and accept it as a sovereign state. The two countries could then enter into mature reunification negociations as equals, with all the time they need. Taiwanese people won't give up the democratic structures they have achieved in the past; and yet the Mainland will be so crazy about them rejoining the motherland that it will concede to a lot. This could be the first step to real regional representation (and eventually democratic structures) in Beijing; and Taiwan will be strenghtened in the long run as well.

It's a utopian vision, for sure, but I've thought a lot about this and I believe it could really be a way forward for all of China.
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negative

Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:20 am

Quoting Foppishbum (Reply 22):
I don't know why but many Taiwanese are just not...brave enough.

With China busy preparing itself to host the Olympics, the next few months might provide the best chance for Taiwan to irritate the mainland with some provocative comments and acts.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 24):
India is big enough to be able to stand up against China

Perhaps, but their common border (the Himalayas) doesn't allow any meaningful interaction. India isn't much of a naval power either. Geographically, India and China occupy two very different Asias.
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negative

Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:05 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 25):
I for one support One China in the long run. I see the two countries as both basically Chinese, culturally very close and speaking the same language (the differences are minor really; and traditional versus simplified characters are not a huge issue in the digital age IMO). The only major difference is that one part went through the disruptive experience of communism, while the other did not. But this is equally true for the two Germanys in the Cold War, and they could form a united nation as well.

AFAIK, Taiwanese society is split (sociologically and politically) between the native Taiwanese (who are largely for independence) and the people who came over from the mainland in 1949, who mostly support the KMT and it's claim to rule all of China. The later (at least those who still have memories about property etc. in mainland China) are slowly dying out (a bit like the "Vertriebene" in Germany).
Also don't forget that, while Taiwan was never Communist, for almost 40 years Taiwan was a fascist dictatorship under the KMT (Chiang Kai-Chek was an admirer of Mussolini and Hitler (up to the late 1930s, he had German military advisers).

Also, using your reasoning, Singapore should come under the rule of the PRC as well, since it is primarely a Chinese culture and society.

Jan

[Edited 2007-10-31 18:07:18]
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:12 am

The culture of Taiwan is not the same as China.

China is a large developing country that has a Communist cultural system. And yes, a partial free market.

Taiwan is a developed, highly educated modern democracy. It is culturally 20 or 30 years ahead of China.



If you want to talk cultural similarity, I would put Taiwan first with Hong Kong, then Japan, and then China. Go to Taiwan sometime... it looks nothing like China. Much more like Japan. The lifestyle of the people is also more like Japan.

Taiwan's people are mostly ethnic Chinese. More and more, Taiwan is connecting with big-city Chinese who are becoming rich. As this occurs, they will grow closer. But at the current moment, Taiwan and China have different lifestyles, dreams and tastes, even though the people look the same and talk the same according to most outsiders.
 
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:17 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 28):
Go to Taiwan sometime... it looks nothing like China. Much more like Japan. The lifestyle of the people is also more like Japan.

Makes sense as Taiwan was for several decades a Japanese colony, and unlike in other colonies of theirs, they used Taiwan as a model colony and set the base for the modern infrastructure (roads, schools etc.).
Years ago in secondary school I had a girlfriend, who's mother came originally from Shanghai, but who's family fled to Taiwan in 1949 (when she was still a child). As a result she grew up in Taiwan, but besides Mandarin Chinese, German (she lives in Germany), English and possibly French, she also speaks Japanese.

Jan
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:17 am

Quoting David L (Reply 18):
That seems like a huge gamble to me. Suppose Taiwan declares independence now and China builds the capability to take it within the next few decades... then what?

I tried to counter this point in my first post (reply 15). There is of course nothing to stop China building its strength in order to take Taiwan by force after a declaration of independence. But thats just it. As you said that would take several years to achieve during which time a new international status quo would have been established in which Taiwan is recognised by all as an independent nation. So any actions by China several years later would have the whole world in opposition!?

Quoting Rara (Reply 25):
KMT is still a major political force in Taiwan and they'll never ever acknowledge Taiwanese independence. So, if Taiwan declared independence, a military intervention from the Mainland would be only one of the possible dangers; a civil war or something closely resembling one would be another.

So is this a real possibility? That surprises me. Would/could the KMT really do this?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 28):
it looks nothing like China. Much more like Japan.

This I would have to agree with. I have not been outside of Taipei, but that city at least (i thought) is like a miniature Japan!

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 24):
Taiwan and India would be an interesting strategic partnership



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 24):
IMO a win-win situation for both

I think this would be a very good course of action for Taiwan.
Taiwan has one superpower on its side. If it could get another (potential future superpower) then even China would have to back down.
Another great idea is this...

Quoting Rara (Reply 25):
I would wish for Taiwan to declare independence soon. The beginning of the Olympics would be a great time for that

With an massive influx of foreigners and media people for the games and the eyes of the world on Beijing, China might feel a bit stuck and unable to respond for a while!!??? boxedin 
Thats a great window of opportunity.

[Edited 2007-10-31 20:22:46]
 
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:46 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 25):
While many people may wish for it (Foppishburn being one of them), the KMT is still a major political force in Taiwan and they'll never ever acknowledge Taiwanese independence. So, if Taiwan declared independence, a military intervention from the Mainland would be only one of the possible dangers; a civil war or something closely resembling one would be another.

I doubt that a civil war would erupt. Currently the DPP has control over the military since the President is a member of DPP. The military is supposed to be under the command of the President (but let's hope that there is no revolt from the military...possibility is slim though). KMT is loosing popularity in southern part of Taiwan since most southern Taiwanese are practically "native Taiwanese" (living in Taiwan long long before 1949, like my family). More and more pro-independent parties are developing (they're small, but growing). Worst case senerio there will be North Taiwan and South Taiwan like the Koreas.  Yeah sure But there won't be intense civil war...

Quoting BritJap (Reply 30):
This I would have to agree with. I have not been outside of Taipei, but that city at least (i thought) is like a miniature Japan!

I was raised in Taipei for 15 years and when I lived in Tokyo for a month a few years back, I felt like I was at home Big grin . We do have a lot of Japanese influence.

Quoting BritJap (Reply 30):

So is this a real possibility? That surprises me. Would/could the KMT really do this?

KMT does have a lot of supporters in Taiwan. It's almost a 50-50 split between KMT and DPP though so it is kinda hard to tell if KMT dare to not acknowledge our independence if we do declare it.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 29):
but besides Mandarin Chinese, German (she lives in Germany), English and possibly French, she also speaks Japanese.

My grand parents were under Japanese education when Japan occupied Taiwan for about 50 years. They both speak fluent Japanese and they taught me Japanese. I have to say though, I've lost most of my Japanese. It's hard to maintain a language once you stop using it for considerable amount of time.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 28):
The culture of Taiwan is not the same as China.

China is a large developing country that has a Communist cultural system. And yes, a partial free market.

Taiwan is a developed, highly educated modern democracy. It is culturally 20 or 30 years ahead of China.

Thank you! Big grin  bigthumbsup   bigthumbsup 

Quoting Rara (Reply 25):
I for one support One China in the long run. I see the two countries as both basically Chinese, culturally very close and speaking the same language (the differences are minor really; and traditional versus simplified characters are not a huge issue in the digital age IMO). The only major difference is that one part went through the disruptive experience of communism, while the other did not. But this is equally true for the two Germanys in the Cold War, and they could form a united nation as well.

The Mandarin we speak in Taiwan has practically different pronunciation (although we can understand each other) and the words/phrases/idioms we use are completely different. It might not seem different for foreigners who are learning Mandarin but more native speakers, there is a huge difference. 50% of the time I can't understand Mandarin spoken by Mainland Chinese.

This is probably not an accurate statistics but I would say at least 50% of Taiwanese people don't know how to read or write simplified Chinese Characters. Simplified Chinese and Traditional Chinese are basically two completely different written languages. The only reason I can read some Simplified Chinese is that I lived in Shanghai for a year.

Trust me. Our culture is completely different. We are heavily influenced by Japan and the southern part of Fu-jian province (called Min-Nan). The Taiwanese dialect is similar to Min (aka Ho-lo wei) but there are plenty of differences. Taiwanese, the language, is also heavily influenced by Japanese. Maybe that is why it was easier for me to learn Japanese in high school. For example, the pronunciation of "world" in Taiwanese is "Sei-gai" and it is the same thing in Japanese.

Communism or not, our Taiwanese culture was deviated from Mainland Chinese culture since a very long time ago.
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:46 am

I'm quite used to it, I don't really care.

There is no need for independence, the current system (of no chinese control, but no formal independence) works well in my view.

Then again, I'm quite pissed off that the Taiwanese government wants me to do military service when I wasn't even born there. (Before you ask, Yes I did confirm this with Taiwanese diplomatic offices)
 
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:02 am

Quoting ACFA (Reply 32):
Then again, I'm quite pissed off that the Taiwanese government wants me to do military service when I wasn't even born there. (Before you ask, Yes I did confirm this with Taiwanese diplomatic offices)

If you've been living outside of Taiwan for 5 years, even if you were born in Taiwan, you don't need to serve in the military as long as you have the "overseas Taiwanese passport". Got one and I can visit Taiwan without visa for 6 months without being dragged to the military. There are lots of ways around it. If you're not born in Taiwan then you don't have to go to the military unless you claim Taiwanese citizenship. Now, why would you wanna claim Taiwanese citizenship if you were not born and raised in Taiwan? Just curious...not being hostile.  Smile



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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:10 am

Quoting Foppishbum (Reply 33):
f you've been living outside of Taiwan for 5 years, even if you were born in Taiwan, you don't need to serve in the military as long as you have the "overseas Taiwanese passport". Got one and I can visit Taiwan without visa for 6 months without being dragged to the military. There are lots of ways around it. If you're not born in Taiwan then you don't have to go to the military unless you claim Taiwanese citizenship. Now, why would you wanna claim Taiwanese citizenship if you were not born and raised in Taiwan? Just curious...not being hostile.

I have Taiwanese citizenship by accident, without getting into details, I am obligated to serve in the military. I've confirmed this with TECO themselves. Their officials here said I was one of the few people (possibly the only one) to be caught in this loophole. I do have an overseas passport, but I believe if you were born in a different time (forgot which) you are only allowed entry up to 180 days cumulative over 4 years. Last time I entered Taiwan with my "Overseas passport" they refused to let me leave without applying for permission to exit, they never gave me instructions how to do this, and the passport is written in Chinese so I didn't understand how. Furthermore the officials at their office were unhelpful in translation and it was a very infuriating experience. I have nothing but dislike for the whole system/process. But I do love the food and the night markets though.
 
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:26 am

Quoting ACFA (Reply 34):
Their officials here said I was one of the few people (possibly the only one) to be caught in this loophole.

I'm sorry to hear that... Sad

Quoting ACFA (Reply 34):
Last time I entered Taiwan with my "Overseas passport" they refused to let me leave without applying for permission to exit, they never gave me instructions how to do this, and the passport is written in Chinese so I didn't understand how.

You're supposed to go to this government agency to get a stamp that permits you to go out of Taiwan. It is an easy process and as long as you can prove you are working in Canada or getting education in Canada then you're fine. I handed them my UC Davis student ID and no question asked, they stamped my overseas passport.

Quoting ACFA (Reply 34):
But I do love the food and the night markets though.

Exactly! I gain at least 5 pounds whenever I go back! Love the food and night markets! Big grin



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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negative

Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:51 am

Quoting BritJap (Reply 30):

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 24):
IMO a win-win situation for both

I think this would be a very good course of action for Taiwan.
Taiwan has one superpower on its side. If it could get another (potential future superpower) then even China would have to back down.

With all due respect, I still think you're both at a loss on this one.

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 26):

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 24):
India is big enough to be able to stand up against China

Perhaps, but their common border (the Himalayas) doesn't allow any meaningful interaction. India isn't much of a naval power either. Geographically, India and China occupy two very different Asias.

In other words, (1) the Indo-Chinese border is an extremely difficult battleground scenario, and (2) India's navy lacks the capability to project force beyond its home waters, let alone venture into the Taiwan Strait.
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:26 am

Quoting Foppishbum (Reply 10):
Wow I thought I would offend some A.netter but apparently not

we all agree, expect for probably Chinese nationalists

BTW, thanks to your politicians, we get good laughs from the fights that break out within your Government, thankyou Taiwan, so very much.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negative

Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:33 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 37):
BTW, thanks to your politicians, we get good laughs from the fights that break out within your Government, thankyou Taiwan, so very much.

 tongue  When I see those on CNN or on those "funny video" shows, I get very embarrassed. . . It's times like when I wish I wasn't Taiwanese.  tongue 



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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:37 am

Quoting Foppishbum (Reply 38):
When I see those on CNN or on those "funny video" shows, I get very embarrassed. . . It's times like when I wish I wasn't Taiwanese

no kidding, BTW what are they usually fighting about, is it controversial topics about relations with China?
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negative

Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:02 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 39):
no kidding, BTW what are they usually fighting about, is it controversial topics about relations with China?

Nope...not really. Just disagreements about bills and stuff. KMT hates DPP, DPP hates KMT...and other smaller parties are just there to side with whoever has the upper hand  sigh  ...sometimes they fight over the smallest things. They can learn something from the British Parliament or Congress...seriously. :|



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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:06 am

Quoting Foppishbum (Reply 31):
I was raised in Taipei for 15 years and when I lived in Tokyo for a month a few years back, I felt like I was at home . We do have a lot of Japanese influence.

I'm glad you took this light heartedly, after I wrote it I got worried I might cause offense. I didn't mean to imply that Taiwan doesn't have its own culture, just that I did feel a remarkable familiarity when I was there!  Smile

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 36):
With all due respect, I still think you're both at a loss on this one.

I totally understand what you are saying, and I agree with you. But an agreement/alliance with India would still be important if only as a show of moral support from a (potentially) very powerful nation.

Quoting Foppishbum (Reply 35):
Love the food and night markets!

Aahhh the Taipei night markets were awesome. I dont know what you call it in Chinese but the shaved ice (we call it kaki gori in Japanese) was soooo good. We have it in Japan in the summer as well but the Taiwan version is soooooo much better!!!

Finally...

Quoting Foppishbum (Reply 31):
For example, the pronunciation of "world" in Taiwanese is "Sei-gai" and it is the same thing in Japanese.

You are a little bit wrong here though. In Japanese the word would be pronounced "Sekai". I am surprised how similar it is though.

Anyway perhaps we should start a protest to a.net to recognise Taiwan!!? Big grin
 
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:10 am

Quoting BritJap (Reply 41):
You are a little bit wrong here though. In Japanese the word would be pronounced "Sekai". I am surprised how similar it is though.

I can never get the ga and ka sound right when I listen to my grand parents speak...hahaha.  tongue  Sorry!




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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:37 am

I want to add a little bit of history behind this whole (practically) native Taiwanese vs. "new" Taiwanese who's family moved to Taiwan with Chiang Kai-shek...

After Chiang Kai-shek was defeated by CPC, he moved to Taiwan and brought many people with him...(duh)

The "native" Taiwanese were very welcoming when Chiang and his entourage came here because there was a sense of "having our own people (meaning people who speaks Mandarin and have similar Chinese culture) to rule Taiwan" after Japanese occupation (no offense to Japanese...they occupied us pretty well and setup a very good bureaucratic system). BUT...

Most of the "new" Taiwanese see themselves as "elite" among us "native" Taiwanese. All of the government jobs or high rank military positions were held by the "new" Taiwanese...even after a few decades after 1949. So, there were some resentment building up among the "native" Taiwanese. This started the whole native Taiwanese vs. new Taiwanese thing.

When Chiang Kai-shek was the President, he didn't concentrate on building up Taiwan. His goal was to fight back and get Mainland China back to ROC's possession. He practically didn't do anything to set-foot in Taiwan and possibly didn't view Taiwan as his new home. Now, I'm not talking crap about him. He was an okay ruler. But as time goes on, it seems very unlikely getting back Mainland will happen.

It wasn't until his son, Chiang Jin-guo, became President when the government shifted its concentration onto building up Taiwan's infrastructure. Chiang Jin-guo did the whole "ten construction projects" including highway system, transportation systems (railroad), etc. That was when Taiwan's economy shot up...


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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negative

Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:38 am

Quoting BritJap (Reply 41):
Anyway perhaps we should start a protest to a.net to recognise Taiwan!!?

If we get enough support, I would like that to happen!

We're minority on A.net...only 14 people chose "Taiwan Region" flag :| And I think about 4 are active... sigh 

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[Edited 2007-11-01 01:46:22]
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:42 am

Quoting BritJap (Reply 30):
As you said that would take several years to achieve during which time a new international status quo would have been established in which Taiwan is recognised by all as an independent nation. So any actions by China several years later would have the whole world in opposition!?

But China already has enough clout to make other nations nervous about recognising Taiwan's independence. Sure, if push came to shove, it might backfire badly on China but who's willing to take the risk that they wouldn't note it in their little black book for "future reference"?  Smile

Quoting Foppishbum (Reply 43):
After Chiang Kai-shek was defeated by CPC, he moved to Taiwan and brought many people with him

I do remember that Chiang Kai-shek Day (probably not the official name) used to be celebrated in Hong Kong each year. I'll bet that doesn't happen now... at least, not on the same scale.
 
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:26 pm

Assimilation, accurate word used by a previous poster. Taiwan has two choices, agree to be ruled by China, or declare independence and face the consequences. I agree with an early poster that the time to do this politically is slipping or has already slipped away. We use politics to avoid wars, if Taiwan had declared independence 10-20 years ago, the situation today would be what?????
If Taiwan declares independence 10 years into the future we all know the outcome, in 10 years time, China's military will be able to march in and take over, a nuke threat by the US would be worthless as China has them too. In a military conflict, boots on the ground are critical, the US does not have the firepower to prevent China getting boots on the ground in Taiwan, forget the amphibious craft that they dont have, they could cross the straits in junks, after a massive missle strike, a/c etc.

The borg are coming, I really do not see how the Taiwanese people can avoid it, their is no division that I have seen or ready about within China that says that they have some doubt about who Taiwan belongs to and who will ultimately rule that piece of land.
 
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negative

Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:34 pm

Quoting Par13del (Reply 46):
agree with an early poster that the time to do this politically is slipping or has already slipped away. We use politics to avoid wars, if Taiwan had declared independence 10-20 years ago, the situation today would be what?????
If Taiwan declares independence 10 years into the future we all know the outcome, in 10 years time, China's military will be able to march in and take over, a nuke threat by the US would be worthless as China has them too.

Because 10-20 years ago Taiwan was still under KMT's ruling and Taiwan independence was a topic that was frowned upon and Taiwanese citizens couldn't vote for their President directly until 1996. In 1996, Taiwanese citizens could directly vote for their own president and the election was held on March 20th under intense threat by Mainland China. The first direct-elected President is President Lee Teng-hui though he had been President for several years prior to being elected in 1996. It wasn't until the last couple of years of President Lee's presidency that he started to be bolder about the topic of Taiwan independence. President Lee forfeited his right to be re-elected for a second term even though technically speaking, he could because the law wasn't established until 1995. In 2000, President Chen Shui-bian was elected. He is a member of DPP and DPP is pro-independent. A few years ago former President Lee left KMT and joined the pro-independent party called Taiwan Solidarity Union. TSU is still small compared to KMT and DPP, however, I see continuous future growth.

Anyway, my point is, it isn't until lately that the will of Taiwan independence became stronger. IT is becoming stronger each year. We took baby step towards independence; changing our post office's name to Taiwan Post, having Taiwan on our passport, etc. We are using the name, "Taiwan" more and more frequently now. It's a shame we're still called "Chinese Taipei" in Olympic Games.

P.S. QUESTION: How can I get the admins to notice this thread and petition to them about changing "Taiwan Region" to "Taiwan"? I mean, even facebook recognize Taiwan as Taiwan. Big grin


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[Edited 2007-11-01 10:39:08]
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:42 pm

Quoting Foppishbum (Reply 47):
P.S. QUESTION: How can I get the admins to notice this thread and petition to them about changing "Taiwan Region" to "Taiwan"?

I think the most legitimate way would to be to ask here:
Why No EU Flag? (by Sukhoi Jul 13 2007 in Site Related)

I'll be branded a traitor for saying this but Taiwan seems to me to be more "independent" than Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland (and they have their own flags) and more of a "country" than the EU is.  duck 
 
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RE: Does "one China" Affect Taiwanese Ppl Negatively?

Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:14 pm

Quoting Zak (Thread starter):
- do you feel discriminated against if companies/webpages openly embrace "one china" policy to avoid fuss with the mighty mainland?

I'm not Taiwanese, but I can tell you that in Costa Rica, a country which previously fully recognised Taiwan as an independent and sovereign state, the tide has turned. Costa Rica has now started to embrace the "One-China-Policy" and restarted trade and diplomatic relations with the Mainland, all this coming a year after President Chen visited the country. Here's an article on the matter:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6729035.stm

It seems a bit ungrateful from Costa Rica to suddenly end their ties with Taiwan this way, all this just for some favour in the Mainland and maybe a handful of CA flights to SJO. Taiwan has helped finance the "Friendship Bridge" which connects two side of the Tempisque river (which will probably be renamed and get the Taiwan flag permanently removed), Taiwan has donated pickup trucks for the Police, plus both maintanted a very close relation filled with many cooperation programmes. Now, the new Chinese Ambassador from Beijing has a new house just directly across from Oscar Arias's residence (which is easily recognisable thanks to that big PRC flag), and it all suddenly ends.

As I said, it seems a bit ungrateful to me that Costa Rica suddenly changes its course and embraces the One-China-Policy. Personally, I'm for respect of Human Rights and Democracy, and would rather see Taiwan independent than being absorbed into the brutal communist system of the Mainland. I'd support Taiwan's independence.

Quoting Foppishbum (Reply 47):
Anyway, my point is, it isn't until lately that the will of Taiwan independence became stronger. IT is becoming stronger each year. We took baby step towards independence; changing our post office's name to Taiwan Post, having Taiwan on our passport, etc. We are using the name, "Taiwan" more and more frequently now. It's a shame we're still called "Chinese Taipei" in Olympic Games.

One question: if Taiwan does become independent, would they keep their official designation as "Republic of China" or would they be called "Republic of Taiwan"?

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