fumanchewd
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Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:13 pm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21578185/

Tibbets had requested no funeral and no headstone, fearing it would provide his detractors with a place to protest, Newhouse said.

RIP. He did what he was told to do, and did it well. I agree that he had to do what he did and I am glad that he was at peace with that.


I am aware that there is currently a thread in military aviation, but I feel that this discussion and Hiroshima envelop so many polemics and subjects that it should be in non-av as well.

[Edited 2007-11-01 11:19:00]
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PSA53
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:25 pm

I would have piloted the mission, if even volunteering, knowing it would have saved American lives.Bottom line! I wouldn't like the horrible loss of enemy life,but this was Imperial Japan, prepared to fight to the last man.This was enemy that did attack mainland US and with intention of chemical weapons and was latter learned that Japan was not far away in creating a dirty bomb. I don't care if the media has good/bad guy ID problem.

Tibbets is a hero! Thanks for your service. RIP
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FlagshipAZ
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:36 pm

Well said, PSA53. My father was a 20 yr old soldier in Europe when Germany surrendered in May 1945. He was prepared to be shipped to the Pacific theatre soon after that. When the bomb fell on Hiroshima a few months later, he came home.
Had the bomb NOT been used, he'd more than likely NOT have come home, and I would not be here typing this today.
Paul Tibbets had the foresight to help end the war more quickly than anyone could have imagined at the time. I certainly hope that General Tibbets gets a well-deserved & honorable tribute from the USA at his memorial service.
General, here's a sharp salute from a old soldier's grateful son.  Smile
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Aaron747
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:17 am

Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 2):
Had the bomb NOT been used, he'd more than likely NOT have come home, and I would not be here typing this today.



Quoting PSA53 (Reply 1):
I wouldn't like the horrible loss of enemy life,but this was Imperial Japan, prepared to fight to the last man.

Thanks for repeating high school history text verbatim rather than employing critical thinking.  Yeah sure If this were still 1945, your comments would be valid, but in this day and age the fact you're still repeating such beliefs speaks only to your astounding ignorance of the subject.
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PSA53
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:33 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 3):
Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 2):
Had the bomb NOT been used, he'd more than likely NOT have come home, and I would not be here typing this today.



Quoting PSA53 (Reply 1):
I wouldn't like the horrible loss of enemy life,but this was Imperial Japan, prepared to fight to the last man.

Thanks for repeating high school history text verbatim rather than employing critical thinking. If this were still 1945, your comments would be valid, but in this day and age the fact you're still repeating such beliefs speaks only to your astounding ignorance of the subject.

I believe I did mention Imperial Japan and not civil Japan.And from 1945 to 2007,your taught Imperial Japan changes to all around good guy,peace loving nation who's WW2 human rights violations aren't even acknowledge?Right! Give me a break.
All points are still very valid in 2007 of Imperial Japan.
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fumanchewd
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:38 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 3):
If this were still 1945, your comments would be valid, but in this day and age the fact you're still repeating such beliefs speaks only to your astounding ignorance of the subject.

Its not just highschool textbooks. History books illustrate that Japan was not ready to surrender and those who say they were are just speculating. Its easy to armchair quarterback, but Iwo Jima was not something the US wanted to take part in. Now, how was the conventional bombing of Tokyo or Germany any different than the a-bomb? In terms of deaths, they are similiar. It was hours instead of a week. Otherwise WWI and WWII were terrible events that should be avoided in the future.

But I WILL NOT second guess past events that are to me genuine in motivation. It is good to investigate the past, but not to condem it on speculation. I have seen the evidence that the abomb was not needed in a few books and to me the argument is lost unless further evidence arrives. Those that are critical are doing so using ambiguous evidence and speculation as support.
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PSA53
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:08 am

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 5):
Now, how was the conventional bombing of Tokyo or Germany any different than the a-bomb? In terms of deaths, they are similiar. It was hours instead of a week.

Very good point.And to take that thought a step further.What if the US did not have the bomb and attacked and invaded Japan by conventional means. Now, they say US causality would have been around 1/2 million or up.But what would Japans final tally been?So,can it not be said the A bomb saved lives on both sides?
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Boeing4ever
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:09 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 3):
If this were still 1945, your comments would be valid,

There's the key buddy. Think about that now. You know, critical thinking. Not revisionist history.

RIP Mr. Tibbets.

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ronglimeng
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:57 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 3):
Thanks for repeating high school history text verbatim rather than employing critical thinking. If this were still 1945, your comments would be valid, but in this day and age the fact you're still repeating such beliefs speaks only to your astounding ignorance of the subject.

Well, I happen to share the views that you disparage here and while I am not an expert, I don't feel possessed of astounding ignorance.

In your supercilous way you seem to hint that you have knowledge greater than ours. You might have considered sharing it here.

But then, this thread was really started to note the passing of Colonel Tibbets. RIP
 
FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:22 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 3):
Thanks for repeating high school history text verbatim rather than employing critical thinking. If this were still 1945, your comments would be valid, but in this day and age the fact you're still repeating such beliefs speaks only to your astounding ignorance of the subject.

You care to further explain your point, rather than just speweing this "high school history" stuff, that's only been confirmed through what I've had in military history courses?



RIP Mr. Tibbets. Another one from the "Greatest Generation" departs us.   

[Edited 2007-11-01 19:25:55]
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Falcon84
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:49 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 3):
Thanks for repeating high school history text verbatim rather than employing critical thinking. If this were still 1945, your comments would be valid, but in this day and age the fact you're still repeating such beliefs speaks only to your astounding ignorance of the subject.

Those beliefs are historical fact. Japan was not going to surrender. Their fights to the death in the Island-hopping campaign proved that. You're "critical thinking" is nothing but revisionist history, designed to make Japan somehow the "victim" of American imperialism, when in fact Japan had been at war in China for a decade before Pearl Harbor, and that it committed all kinds of atrocities during the period between 1931 and 1945.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 5):
Its easy to armchair quarterback,

Especially 62 uears after tje fact/

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 7):
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 3):
If this were still 1945, your comments would be valid,

There's the key buddy. Think about that now. You know, critical thinking. Not revisionist history.

Exactly.

This thread is about Mr. Tibbits, my God rest his soul. He did his job for his nation, and did it without a second thought. He lived with the results of that attack his entire life, but never once complained or doubted that what he did was right. May he rest in peace. And may all the victims of that war, and of that attack, also rest in peace.
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Aaron747
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:57 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 10):
You're "critical thinking" is nothing but revisionist history, designed to make Japan somehow the "victim" of American imperialism, when in fact Japan had been at war in China for a decade before Pearl Harbor, and that it committed all kinds of atrocities during the period between 1931 and 1945.

Imperial Japan was no victim - the average citizen was. I've explained at length in several recent past threads you chose not to respond to. I'm not going to waste time repeating it here when the search function will suffice.

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 4):
And from 1945 to 2007,your taught Imperial Japan changes to all around good guy,peace loving nation who's WW2 human rights violations aren't even acknowledge?Right! Give me a break.

I didn't go to school here, I'm an expat resident. Thanks.

The victim culture here has primarily MacArthur's singular absolution of the Showa emperor's war responsibility to blame. CIA-involved installation of a conservative government with deep-seated nationalist elements in the 1950s that remain to this day haven't helped either. The only reason Japanese wartime atrocities aren't given their due here and never will be is because WE swept them under the carpet in the rush to establish a prime Cold War ally in Asia. It didn't need to be done in just that way given the larger ramnifications and to say so is NOT revisionist.

[Edited 2007-11-01 20:01:19]
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halls120
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:00 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 10):
This thread is about Mr. Tibbits, my God rest his soul. He did his job for his nation, and did it without a second thought. He lived with the results of that attack his entire life, but never once complained or doubted that what he did was right. May he rest in peace. And may all the victims of that war, and of that attack, also rest in peace.

FFS, didn't we just have a long discussion on whether the Bomb ended the war with Japan?

Do we really need another?

Falcon is correct. We should be honoring the memory of BGEN Tibbets, not starting another debate on the use of the bomb.
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Aaron747
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:02 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 12):
Falcon is correct. We should be honoring the memory of BGEN Tibbets, not starting another debate on the use of the bomb.

Let it be noted I said in the military av thread on Mr. Tibbets that I think he did his job and did it well. He is not to blame for bullheaded idiocy from Washington.
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Falcon84
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:05 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 13):
Let it be noted I said in the military av thread on Mr. Tibbets that I think he did his job and did it well. He is not to blame for bullheaded idiocy from Washington.

Only one problem. Washington wasn't guilty of bull-headed idiocy in this case, Aaron. They did the right thing. But enough of this crap from you, OK? Let's keep the threat about Mr. Tibbets, can we?
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dl021
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:06 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 3):
Thanks for repeating high school history text verbatim rather than employing critical thinking.



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 11):
Imperial Japan was no victim - the average citizen was.

I don't think anyone is questioning that the average Japanese citizen ended up being a victim of their own government. But the point stands that starving and desperate Japanese men defending the islands up to Iwo to the death, and that average Japanese civilians chose death on Saipan rather than surrender. The fact...not theory...remains that any invasion of the Japanese home islands would have resulted in serious fighting and loss of Allied life. If the dropping of the two bombs cut that short, then it saved not only untold Allied lives, but countless Japanese lives from the firebombings that would have continued and the invasion that was on the way.

Stop being so defensive towards the Japanese and remember that the average Japanese schoolbook is known to ignore certain facts that are embarrassing or displeasing where it concerns the past, and that today Japan is one of our three greatest allies and the bulwark to our west.

The bombs were the right thing to do, and General Tibbets was a hero. I am proud to have shaken his hand and offered him my thanks for his service.
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halls120
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:09 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 13):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 12):Falcon is correct. We should be honoring the memory of BGEN Tibbets, not starting another debate on the use of the bomb.
Let it be noted I said in the military av thread on Mr. Tibbets that I think he did his job and did it well. He is not to blame for bullheaded idiocy from Washington.

Why are we discussing the alleged "bulheaded idiocy from Washington" in this thread? Do we really need to, given the fact that we just recently discussed the issue in another thread?
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:52 am

I think people forget that one of the things the Allied forces worried about was that the ENTIRE population in the area would have opposed the landings. The result would have been a bloodbath on both sides on an unimaginable scale.

That's why I am glad that Tibbetts dropped the Bomb on Hiroshima--it helped save us from this inhuman slaughter.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:21 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 15):
Stop being so defensive towards the Japanese and remember that the average Japanese schoolbook is known to ignore certain facts that are embarrassing or displeasing where it concerns the past

If you think I'm being defensive about the Japanese, you've got it quite wrong. In stories like these, it's only instructive to see things from both sides, and that includes the plight of the civilians here. But in criticizing historic revisionism, it would only be fair to turn your textbook remark back around on what kids learn in our schools as well. Japan's textbook lies are well-known and unparalleled in the developed world, but the environment that spawned them is largely our fault. Read below.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 15):
But the point stands that starving and desperate Japanese men defending the islands up to Iwo to the death, and that average Japanese civilians chose death on Saipan rather than surrender. The fact...not theory...remains that any invasion of the Japanese home islands would have resulted in serious fighting and loss of Allied life.

The only facts regard what Allied planners assumed an invasion would entail. What the first occupying forces found after they arrived here was quite the opposite and is well-documented. Saipan and Okinawa are often cited as examples of what civilians would have done, but are technically irrelevant since Saipan was a military garrison island and had virtually no civilians without IA or IN connections.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
Let's keep the threat about Mr. Tibbets, can we?

So be it...except that there's not much to say about the man other than his exceptional performance in his chosen assignment. The only reason his passing is newsworthy is because of the controversy that will forever surround the bombings, which certainly unfairly targeted him and his crew but only continues (and will continue posthumously)because the political victim culture in Japan will never shut up about it thanks to the political circumstances that were erroneously granted to them by none other than we Americans. People who haven't lived here probably aren't aware - but every August there is a massive ceremony in Hiroshima, televised nationally, which inspires both somber peace-loving commentary and fiery right wing rhetoric from nationalists and like-minded WWII apologists. Is there any media or otherwise ceremonial recognition of the actual surrender date? No. And that's a problem folks. That ceremony on the deck of the Missouri was the seminal turning point in this country's modern history and all anyone talks about is Hiroshima.
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FlagshipAZ
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:34 am

Aaron 747...I'm curious about one thing. How is the Japanese population reacting to the passing of Paul Tibbets?
There's the generation that actually witness & lived the war first-hand, and then there's the generations post-war that has read & heard about the conflict...no doubt from the Japanese perspective, as you like to point out. Any media coverage over there regarding this epilogue?
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:09 am

"Can't blame a soldier that is doing his duty"

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Dougloid
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:56 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
If you think I'm being defensive about the Japanese, you've got it quite wrong. In stories like these, it's only instructive to see things from both sides, and that includes the plight of the civilians here. But in criticizing historic revisionism, it would only be fair to turn your textbook remark back around on what kids learn in our schools as well. Japan's textbook lies are well-known and unparalleled in the developed world, but the environment that spawned them is largely our fault. Read below.

I'm interested, and I think Aaron's got a lot to say here if he'd boil it down into a concise paragraph that wouldn't induce post traumatic dyslexia...There is something here to be learned.
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FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:59 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
The only facts regard what Allied planners assumed an invasion would entail.

And what else were they supposed to go off then? Let's assume your argument is right, and the average Japanese citizen would not have "fought to the death", which is already known to be the opposite of what happened during the island hopping.

Those two bombs still saved countless Japanese civilian lives. Those two bombs saved tens of thousands of Japanese soldier's lives. And most importantly, those two bombs saved Allied soldier's lives, which probably was (and as well as it should have been) the Allied planners most important objective.

Aaron, I challenge you to spell out your detailed plan for how you would have ended the war and achieved from the empire of Japan an unconditional surrender AND also how you would have done so with losing fewer lives than were lost at Hiroshima and Nagasaki with the atomic bombs.

Until then, you should probably stop Monday-morning quaterbacking 62 years after the event and criticizing how the US politicians and military leaders ended a war that Japan started.

[Edited 2007-11-02 08:06:19]
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baroque
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:36 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 11):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 10):
You're "critical thinking" is nothing but revisionist history, designed to make Japan somehow the "victim" of American imperialism, when in fact Japan had been at war in China for a decade before Pearl Harbor, and that it committed all kinds of atrocities during the period between 1931 and 1945.

Imperial Japan was no victim - the average citizen was. I've explained at length in several recent past threads you chose not to respond to. I'm not going to waste time repeating it here when the search function will suffice.

One of the ironies of the atomic bombing of Japan is that it was indeed so new that there was a considerable degree of disbelief in the circles that made the life and death decisions in Japan. What they did understand was that the Russian army had cut through theirs in Manchuria like a knife through butter. The reasons for the surrender are not well recorded by those who made them, but some Japanese observers think the Russian advance was the deciding factor.

Put yourself in their position, communications were poor generally by this time, and then there is one plane in the sky and a large city disappears. Unbelievable. Tibbets knew what had been done, but the Japanese did not.

It is sad that he felt that a memorial to him would be too divisive. He carried out the attack he was ordered to make. He deserves respect, it was not he who developed the fission bomb.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:36 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 21):
I'm interested, and I think Aaron's got a lot to say here if he'd boil it down into a concise paragraph that wouldn't induce post traumatic dyslexia...There is something here to be learned.

My main sticking point is that contemporary accounts on both sides never tell the whole story. On our side, with the facts known today, it's factually and morally bankrupt to repeat statements like 'without the bomb, my grandpa would've died in the invasion and I wouldn't be here today'. What was a reasonable assumption in July of 1945 is now ill-informed conjecture of the past. I have Gens. MacArthur, Eisenhower, Spaatz, and Adms. Nimitz, Leahy and King to back me up.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 22):
Aaron, I challenge you to spell out your detailed plan for how you would have ended the war and achieved from the empire of Japan an unconditional surrender AND also how you would have done so with losing fewer lives than were lost at Hiroshima and Nagasaki with the atomic bombs.

I don't need to - the subject has been extensively explored by writers in this country already. And the general concensus is that an unconditional surrender with the Emperor's status preserved in the eyes of the people wasn't all that hard to achieve so long as his ceremonial legislative authorities remained in place. Washington needed to do two simple things: first - send a clear message that they planned to do just that by supporting Shigenori Togo and his staffers. second - continue the air raids on Tokyo without the previous protections for high-value targets in Marunouchi, Setagaya and Meguro. The latter were the location of the majority of wealthy residences, including war council members. Our intelligence resources in Japan were far from useless, and with the Kempeitai's known activities suppressing anti-war political operatives, putting that organization out of commission would have sealed the deal.

If you read the necessary literature and interviews with Japanese just after the war, you'd find more than enough evidence to support the military's own conclusion that surrender would have been inevitable by the end of the year. Doing all of the above may have led to more deaths than the a-bombs, but the end result would have been 62 fewer years of political baggage and undue sympathy.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 22):
Until then, you should probably stop Monday-morning quaterbacking 62 years after the event and criticizing how the US politicians and military leaders ended a war that Japan started.

Absolutely not. The way we went about ending the war is responsible for the mess that is modern Japan. It's why everyone remembers A-bombs instead of atrocities, empire, and the loss of a generation. It's why the Japanese are by and large still unable to recognize (much less do anything about!) bad leadership. It's why nationalists and war apologists are still given a voice with which to spout their nonsense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyoku_dantai). It's why Hideki Tojo's granddaughter nearly won a district election in Tokyo last year. It's why Japanese under 40 have no concept of their history with a huge blank spot in their textbooks between now and the Meiji restoration. You don't live here so you probably don't care, but those things all mean quite a bit to me.
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baroque
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:50 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 24):
Doing all of the above may have led to more deaths than the a-bombs, but the end result would have been 62 fewer years of political baggage and undue sympathy.

It is indeed curious that wiping out 100, 000 persons with an atomic bomb is somehow worse than killing them with a firebombing raid. I suppose the way in which an atomic bomb functions is mysterious, but not really any more so than an incendiary bomb. The physics of the atomic bomb is probably easier to explain that the chemistry of the incendiary.

The two magic words have not been mentioned so far (unless I missed them) unconditional surrender. They probably kept the European war going for an extra 2 to 6 months. With Japan, the US eventually realised that the Japanese would just not surrender if they insisted on no conditions.

As for the Japanese political system, thanks Gen McArthur. He thought he was manipulating the Japanese elites, but I rather suspect that they were ahead by the end.
 
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CALTECH
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:36 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 24):
My main sticking point is that contemporary accounts on both sides never tell the whole story. On our side, with the facts known today, it's factually and morally bankrupt to repeat statements like 'without the bomb, my grandpa would've died in the invasion and I wouldn't be here today'. What was a reasonable assumption in July of 1945 is now ill-informed conjecture of the past. I have Gens. MacArthur, Eisenhower, Spaatz, and Adms. Nimitz, Leahy and King to back me up.

Read this and others, do not know what is being read or taught. Sounds revisionist.

http://www.americanheritage.com/arti...magazine/ah/1995/3/1995_3_70.shtml

"Another myth that has attained wide attention is that at least several of Truman’s top military advisers later informed him that using atomic bombs against Japan would be militarily unnecessary or immoral, or both. There is no persuasive evidence that any of them did so. None of the Joint Chiefs ever made such a claim, although one inventive author has tried to make it appear that Leahy did by braiding together several unrelated passages from the admiral’s memoirs. Actually, two days after Hiroshima, Truman told aides that Leahy had “said up to the last that it wouldn’t go off.”

Neither MacArthur nor Nimitz ever communicated to Truman any change of mind about the need for invasion or expressed reservations about using the bombs."

Seems the top military advisors to President Truman do not back the revisionist story. Mr. Tibbets by taking a lot of lives, saved many more. As Mr. Tibbets said, he slept well at night.
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fumanchewd
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:11 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 11):
CIA-involved installation of a conservative government with deep-seated nationalist elements in the 1950s that remain to this day haven't helped either. The only reason Japanese wartime atrocities aren't given their due here and never will be is because WE swept them under the carpet in the rush to establish a prime Cold War ally in Asia. It didn't need to be done in just that way given the larger ramnifications and to say so is NOT revisionist.

I fail to see what this has to do with the atom bomb.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 25):
As for the Japanese political system, thanks Gen McArthur. He thought he was manipulating the Japanese elites, but I rather suspect that they were ahead by the end.

The same government which established the most progressively liberal government (constitution) in the history of Japan, btw. Japan is certainly conservative, but one only has to look at its history to realize that the constitution enforced by the US was a huge leap for individual rights in relation to the population having no rights under Emperor rule. It is easy for some like Aaron to criticize the governments of the 50's to modern time, yet a super conservative government was necessary in keeping with the previous social and cultural accepted norms. "Conservative" has been synomonous with Japan for thousands of years. The introduction of women's rights, for one, was a concept that the Japanese government would have never legitimized without the new imposed constitution. I find it extremely interesting that the Japanese, who previously had very little concept of individual rights, were able to assimilate the imposed constitution. I believe that they were only able to do so, if they kept it within a framework of conservative policies and the kata related to the past.

[Edited 2007-11-02 12:26:04]
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FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:24 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 24):
I don't need to - the subject has been extensively explored by writers in this country already

That's not what I asked chief. I asked you how YOU would have achieved this, since you're so content on Monday-morning quarterbacking, you can explain how YOU would have done so. Are you capable of doing this? From your posts in this thread, it would appear the answer is "no".
Your whole point in this thread has been "Other people have. Go research it yourself." Well, with that attitude, I hope you're never my attorney should I ever have to appear in court because I'm afraid you'd tell the jury "There's plenty of evidence out there to prove my client is innocent, but I don't feel like presenting it so go find it yourself".
It's not my job to look up research to back up YOUR argument.   

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 24):
What was a reasonable assumption in July of 1945 is now ill-informed conjecture of the past. I have Gens. MacArthur, Eisenhower, Spaatz, and Adms. Nimitz, Leahy and King to back me up.

Yet you quote or cite nothing to back this up. Care to do so?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 24):
Doing all of the above may have led to more deaths than the a-bombs, but the end result would have been 62 fewer years of political baggage and undue sympathy.

You can't conclude that. It didn't take an A-bomb to end the US Civil War and it took a long time for attitude of the South to finally accept it and to some extent we're still struggling to end that one in the US to some extent today.
And honestly, if that A-bomb saved US soldiers lives by ending the war (which it did), well, then it did it's most important job. I don't care if you like that opinion or not. That's my opinion and you're not going to change it.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 24):
It's why Hideki Tojo's granddaughter nearly won a district election in Tokyo last year.

Okay I fail to see why this alone is enough to conclude anything, since once again you quote or cite nothing else. I mean, should I be allowed to conclude Al Gore is a racist and bad leader because his own father voted against the 1964 Civil Rights Act? Based on how you're forming and supporting arguments, the answer to that would be "Yes."

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 24):
The way we went about ending the war is responsible for the mess that is modern Japan.

It seems as if you're more upset at how the US ended the war rather than the fact that Japan started the war.

[Edited 2007-11-02 14:54:03]
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
JAGflyer
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:21 pm

The interesting thing was I read the wikipedia page about the bombings and saw his name a few weeks back. I clicked on it thinking he is probably long gone but surprisingly he was still alive at the time.
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jcs17
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:21 pm

A great book about Tibbets, the bombing, his life, and his feelings about it is "Duty" by Bob Greene.
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b752fanatic
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:08 am

For all of those who are so sure that it was necessary to drop the bomb, please read this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Decision-Use-Atomic-Bomb/dp/067976285X

It might help a lot on your arguments defending the bomb.
"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:21 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 12):
FFS, didn't we just have a long discussion on whether the Bomb ended the war with Japan?

Yes, several in fact over the last 2 years.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 12):
Do we really need another?

No.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 12):
Falcon is correct. We should be honoring the memory of BGEN Tibbets, not starting another debate on the use of the bomb.

Spot on. . . .

However . . .

Quoting Fumanchewd (Thread starter):
I am aware that there is currently a thread in military aviation, but I feel that this discussion and Hiroshima envelop so many polemics and subjects that it should be in non-av as well.

The thread starter did in fact leave open for debate the subject of the bomb.

That's why I didn't clean up the thread from the get-go.

. . . . .

RIP General Tibbets . . . you're service was a ground-breaking milestone. Salute!

FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:28 am

I read this in the news yesterday. His life story was pretty interesting with all the kudos and criticism he received. I had the oppurtunity to see the Enola Gay at Smithsonian. An amazing aircraft, an amazing man, and an amazing story.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 5):
Its not just highschool textbooks. History books illustrate that Japan was not ready to surrender and those who say they were are just speculating. Its easy to armchair quarterback, but Iwo Jima was not something the US wanted to take part in.

Agreed. If the capturing of Iwo Jima, a very small island, took such a massive toll on both sides, imagine what an invasion of the mainland would have been like.

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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:14 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 28):
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 24):
The way we went about ending the war is responsible for the mess that is modern Japan.
It seems as if you're more upset at how the US ended the war rather than the fact that Japan started the war.

Amazing, isn't it. Japan started the war, inflicted countless atrocities along the way, and our use of the bomb is the only thing they apparently have any angst about?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:30 am

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 26):
Read this and others, do not know what is being read or taught. Sounds revisionist.

Not revisionist - US Strategic Bombing Survey Report, 1946

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USSBS-PTO-Summary.html#jstetw

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 27):
I find it extremely interesting that the Japanese, who previously had very little concept of individual rights, were able to assimilate the imposed constitution.

What evidence do you have that respect for individual rights, much less substantive democracy, exists in Japanese society today?

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 27):
I fail to see what this has to do with the atom bomb.

I explained in greater detail in the last paragraph of reply 24.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 28):
Yet you quote or cite nothing to back this up. Care to do so?

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html

When he was informed in mid-July 1945 by Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson of the decision to use the atomic bomb, General Dwight Eisenhower was deeply troubled. He disclosed his strong reservations about using the new weapon in his 1963 memoir, The White House Years: Mandate for Change, 1953-1956 (pp. 312-313):

During his [Stimson's] recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of "face."


..

Shortly after "V-J Day," the end of the Pacific war, Brig. General Bonnie Fellers summed up in a memo for General MacArthur: "Neither the atomic bombing nor the entry of the Soviet Union into the war forced Japan's unconditional surrender. She was defeated before either these events took place."

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 28):
Your whole point in this thread has been "Other people have. Go research it yourself." Well, with that attitude, I hope you're never my attorney should I ever have to appear in court because I'm afraid you'd tell the jury "There's plenty of evidence out there to prove my client is innocent, but I don't feel like presenting it so go find it yourself".

Totally specious. I presented a summary of the concensus of arguments from researchers here as they stand today. You can't read Japanese, can you? If so, I'd be happy to direct you to some useful links. Or you can read John Dower's Pulitzer Prize-winning account, "Embracing Defeat: Japan in the Aftermath of WWII".

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 28):
It seems as if you're more upset at how the US ended the war rather than the fact that Japan started the war.

I don't think it's at all necessary to state something so obvious as the fact that Imperial Japan's strategic leaders betrayed their generation, are responsible for the murder of untold millions, and should be forever banished from Yasukuni Shrine. Your interpretation is bizarre given the explanation I already provided in reply 24. I'm upset at how we ended the war because those events are directly responsible for Japan's 60 years of relative political ineptitude and lack of war responsibility.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 28):
You can't conclude that.

Actually I can, given how the last six decades have unfolded. Guaranteed, without the bombs, we wouldn't have continuation of the right-wing driven a-bomb victim culture. Bet you didn't hear about this in US news either:

http://www.japannewsreview.com/politics/20070703page_id=283

Yes, that's right. The Defense Minister himself was forced to resign, was subjected to death threats, and faced staggering criticism for merely commenting that the bombs were part of what brought the war to an end, even though he's from Nagasaki.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 28):
Okay I fail to see why this alone is enough to conclude anything, since once again you quote or cite nothing else.

Happy now? Learn all about Yuko Tojo and try to imagine anyone like this running for anything in the US with anything but zealotry for support.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/...nder/2005/08/12/1123353492785.html

Yuko Tojo, 66, insists that her grandfather was not a villain, but a hero. The greatest battle of her own life has been over his soul. The calls for his and 13 other Class-A criminals' souls to be banished from Japan's most controversial war memorial, the Yasukuni Shrine, to a new one is being advanced as one way to make visits there by Japanese political leaders acceptable to China and South Korea, who suffered at the hands of Japan during wartime and colonial occupations.

Tojo is appalled. In her version of history, Japan was defending itself, there were no war crimes, the war was unfair, Japan was the victim and her grandfather was a martyr who died protecting Emperor Hirohito. "There is not enough pride in Japan," she says. "In his last letter my grandfather said that his family must never apologise or make excuses for him. If we do, all that he did to protect the emperor will have been for nothing and he will have died in vain."

"Gutless," is the word she reserves for Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi and other business and political leaders who do not stand up to critics, particularly China and South Korea.


Quoting Halls120 (Reply 34):
Amazing, isn't it. Japan started the war, inflicted countless atrocities along the way, and our use of the bomb is the only thing they apparently have any angst about?

That's certainly the frustration.

[Edited 2007-11-02 18:34:37]
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:35 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 35):
What evidence do you have that respect for individual rights, much less substantive democracy, exists in Japanese society today?

Compare the prewar rights to now. You live there after all. Is it like the Sudan? Maybe you need to get out!  Wow!

Can you deny the differnces in society before and after were very different? Did the constitution not create rights where there were none? Whether Japan has its problems or not, it is very obvious that the most succesfull country in Asia over the last 50 years is by no means as oppresive as it was before the war.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
bok269
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:20 am

RIP General Tibbets. Thank you for your service.

I think it is a real shame that this American hero can't be honored with a proper funeral or headstone because of fear of protestors. I think that is really a sad reflection on our culture.

At the end of the day, he followed orders when dropping the bomb. You couldn't ask for anything more.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:28 am

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 37):
I think it is a real shame that this American hero can't be honored with a proper funeral or headstone because of fear of protestors. I think that is really a sad reflection on our culture

No, this is the greatness of this society. We dont all of to think the same way. Tibbets was a great Pilot and a Patriot, he did his job, but it is the right of those who wish to protest.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:30 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 38):
No, this is the greatness of this society. We dont all of to think the same way. Tibbets was a great Pilot and a Patriot, he did his job, but it is the right of those who wish to protest.

I agree, but the man's gravesite and death should be left alone.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
bok269
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:38 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 38):

No, this is the greatness of this society. We dont all of to think the same way. Tibbets was a great Pilot and a Patriot, he did his job, but it is the right of those who wish to protest.

I don't have a problem with protests, but there is no reason a hero has to hide for eternity. A grave is sacred and hallowed land. There is no reason why people shouldn't respect that.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
baroque
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:43 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 38):
Quoting Bok269 (Reply 37):
I think it is a real shame that this American hero can't be honored with a proper funeral or headstone because of fear of protestors. I think that is really a sad reflection on our culture

No, this is the greatness of this society. We dont all of to think the same way. Tibbets was a great Pilot and a Patriot, he did his job, but it is the right of those who wish to protest.

As Bok269 writes, protest is one thing, defacing a grave is entirely different. Perhaps SCOTUS should be asked if that is implicit in the free speech part of the constitution?  Wow!
 
dl021
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:25 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
but the environment that spawned them is largely our fault. Read below.

no...the environment that spawned that behaviour was well ingrained prior to WWII or Commodore Perry.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
but are technically irrelevant since Saipan was a military garrison island and had virtually no civilians without IA or IN connections

you ignore that the civilians on the island committed mass suicide for what reason? The entire populace had been militarised by this time. They were building balloon bombs in movie theaters for pete's sake. Everything was devoted to war production and preparations. Starving or not it would have been ugly for the invaders until the will to fight had been broken.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
only facts regard what Allied planners assumed an invasion would entail. What the first occupying forces found after they arrived here was quite the opposite and is well-documented

Which are the only facts that are relevant. The planners had to go on what the intel said, and with that they made the right decision. After the fact argument based on information (accurate or not) unavailable prior to is pointless.
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BlueElephant
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:50 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 17):
That's why I am glad that Tibbetts dropped the Bomb on Hiroshima--it helped save us from this inhuman slaughter.

I don't understand how this statement makes any sense at all...

Quote from Wikipedia... "As many as 140,000 people in Hiroshima and 80,000 in Nagasaki may have died from the bombings by the end of 1945"

Are you saying that this isn't inhuman slaughter?...



Anyway...in Regards to Tibbets...he was a pretty brave pilot...and a good one at that...May he rest in Peace.
 
halls120
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:07 pm

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 38):
Quoting Bok269 (Reply 37):I think it is a real shame that this American hero can't be honored with a proper funeral or headstone because of fear of protestors. I think that is really a sad reflection on our culture
No, this is the greatness of this society. We dont all of to think the same way. Tibbets was a great Pilot and a Patriot, he did his job, but it is the right of those who wish to protest.

You can't protest somewhere more appropriate? That you apparently think it is acceptable to protest at a person's grave says a lot about you. Tell us, do you also approve of the WBC protests at military funeral?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
767Lover
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:47 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 11):
the search function will suffice.

The search function is worthless. It misses too much stuff.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 34):
Amazing, isn't it. Japan started the war, inflicted countless atrocities along the way, and our use of the bomb is the only thing they apparently have any angst about?

I guess the Rape of Nanking was historical revisionism as well.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:16 pm

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 36):
Is it like the Sudan? Maybe you need to get out!

What's with all the hyperbole around here? I wasn't suggesting anything of the sort, just asking an open-ended question to counter your know-it-all claim.

It isn't that bad here, unless you want to vote. Non-Japanese can't do that, ever. By western standards the police powers are fairly radical as well. Suspected of something? You can be held 23 days without consular or legal contact. Anyway, such regulatory concerns can't be voted on by the general public in referendum even if they wanted to.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 36):
Can you deny the differnces in society before and after were very different? Did the constitution not create rights where there were none?

It certainly did, but it was democracy from the sky rather than grassroots. Disenfranchisement is rampant now 60 years later thanks to a longstanding status quo of corruption and single-party rule... so politically, the society has remained more or less the same. Accept what the elders and statesmen say, follow all rules and regulations without fail, and dismiss difficult issues with shoganai (the equivalent to 'it can't be helped').

Quoting DL021 (Reply 42):
no...the environment that spawned that behaviour was well ingrained prior to WWII or Commodore Perry.

That's largely subjective and misses the point.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 45):
I guess the Rape of Nanking was historical revisionism as well.

Many here think just that. The Governor of Tokyo, Shintaro Ishihara, has referred to Chinese several times in the recent past as sangokujin, a pretty ugly prewar slur that amounts to "third rate person" or "subhuman".
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
CMHSRQ
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:49 pm

General Tibbets, thank you for helping end the war so that my grandfather a B17/24/29 pilot at the time only had to bomb the AZ desert and never had to drop a bomb in a war theater.

General Tibbets, thank you for helping start Executive Jet Aviation, if you hadn't I wouldn't be employed, moved to CMH, met my wife and had a beautiful daughter.
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GDB
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Sat Nov 03, 2007 5:28 pm

Well, here is a detailed Obit of the subject;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/obituaries/story/0,,2203765,00.html

Frankly, if anyone is revisionist, it is within elements of Japanese society that still paints the military ruled nation then, as the 'victim'.
Unlike Germany, they are not exactly keen to see WW2 as anything else than an attack on Japan, in a wider national sense, in education for example, they've never come to grips, as Germany did, to the mass crimes carried out, as Falcon84 said, some of the worst pre-dated what we in the West see as the start of WW2.
Not that Japan now is anything else but a free, peaceful nation.

To expand on the above, I posted this in a similar dicussion in Military AV/Space in reply to Air Net member Auto Thrust who cited a BBC documentary, (with the one I cite, having a broadcast date corrected from 1995);

Auto Thrust, on the subject of BBC documentaries, in 2005 they did another on Hiroshima.
A mix of re-counsturctions and archive footage, with eye witness accounts from the US airmen and Japanese civilians.
Where (from the Japanese side), it was made clear that mass use of suicide attacks, including by civilians-even children, would be an element of resistance to an invasion. Japans air forces and navy may have been shattered, but they still had considerable military manpower resources in country.

They intended to fight too, simply because the military rulers (dominated by the still intact and large Japanese Home Army), intended to.
The diplomats could say what they wanted (and treating, as translated, 'with silent contempt' the final Allied offer of surrender, does not sound like even they were that serious about surrender either), but in the end, the military rulers had the final say.

We only have to see how desperately outlying islands were defended, to get some idea of how fanatically they would defend the mainland.
Mass suicide by not only trapped, cornered, finally out of ammo troops, but civilians too-since they had been told they would be ill-treated/murdered by the Americans, (seeing how the Japanese ruled their conquests, they may have assumed the same of everyone else, even before WW2, such as the 'Rape Of Nanking' in China, as well as how they treated Allied POW's).

Imperial Japan was really not so different to Nazi Germany, just that they were not obsessed with exterminating one particular race as Hitler and co were.
But otherwise, the similarities were extensive.

Both had initiated war, both had committed such terrible crimes, had a leadership almost impossible to depose, the same leadership that knew how culpable they would be if put before a court, both had the main elements of leadership set on going down fighting even if they took their people with them.

Sure there were more realistic elements, who saw how ultimately futile fighting on was, but it took something unprecedented to hand them the advantage, which two atomic attacks did.
(Even massive conventional bombing of Japan had not done this, for example the attacks on Tokyo were as, if not more, devastating in casualty terms than the atomic attacks to come).
Japan did have the Emperor, but under this military leadership, he held little sway, or at least did not chose to, that is, until after the atomic attacks.

The proposed invasion of Japan, involving over a million US and Commonwealth troops, had it been resisted in the same manner as the later taking of Japanese islands were, would have been a massive bloodbath.
Far worse and much longer, than the atomic attacks were.
But the Japanese would have fought harder still for their main islands.
Britain and the Commonwealth had been fighting total war for 6 years, (every part of the UK was geared for war and had been for this time), the US for 4 years.
Tens of millions dead, for the ambitions of two dictatorships on either side of the world, it was time to bring it to a stop.

Post war (to the surprise of some), General MacArthur turned occupied Japan from a shattered dictatorship, into the democratic, free, peaceful and prosperous nation it is today.
Can we say that would have happened after a long, very bloody, invasion?
And without the bombs, the USSR would have taken part in the invasion, whether the Western Allies liked it or not, so we would have seen a divided Japan, just like Germany.
But maybe this could have been, sooner or later, the spark for a West vs USSR armed confrontation, like divided Berlin was several times.

Easy to say 'it was a bad thing to do', plenty of bad things had already happened over 6 years, and those two dictatorships were ultimately culpable for all of them.
Instead of picking holes in some things the Allies did, (usually a projection of a present day issue), consider a world where Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan triumphed.


[Edited 2007-11-03 10:43:17]

[Edited 2007-11-03 10:44:05]
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Paul Tibbets, Hiroshima Pilot Dies

Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:50 pm

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 38):
No, this is the greatness of this society. We dont all of to think the same way. Tibbets was a great Pilot and a Patriot, he did his job, but it is the right of those who wish to protest.

Are you freakin' serious. Wow. A man's gravesite is off limits to protesters buddy. Go join the WBC if you believe otherwise. Sick little cretin.

The right to protest is more than welcome OFF the man's grave. And defacing one's grave is NOT a form of protest no matter how you try to perverse the definition. Get a grip.

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