cfalk
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Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:10 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/08/wo...fea&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Quote:

BAGHDAD, Nov. 7 — American forces have routed Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, the Iraqi militant network, from every neighborhood of Baghdad, a top American general said today, allowing American troops involved in the “surge” to depart as planned.

Maj. Gen. Joseph F. Fil Jr., commander of United States forces in Baghdad, also said that American troops had yet to clear some 13 percent of the city, including Sadr City and several other areas controlled by Shiite militias. But, he said, “there’s just no question” that violence had declined since a spike in June.

“Murder victims are down 80 percent from where they were at the peak,” and attacks involving improvised bombs are down 70 percent, he said.

Note that this story was buried on page 19 of the New York Times.

On the one hand, I don't want to applaud too loudly out of perhaps a superstition of celebrating too early. On the other, I feel like going back into old threads and pulling names of all those peoplewho were saying that everything is lost, the Surge is useless, and we should abandon Iraq immediately.

Comments?
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Klaus
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:17 pm

Ah, it's great when the terrorists among the insurgents carry clearly visible badges saying "Al Quaida" to facilitate their expulsion! That's really considerate of them...! crazy 
 
JRadier
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:18 pm

Not your personal quote, I know.

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
American forces have routed Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, the Iraqi militant network, from every neighborhood of Baghdad



Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
also said that American troops had yet to clear some 13 percent of the city,

So why do they claim they got them all out of the city, yet they have 13 percent to go...
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
ronglimeng
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:26 pm

Maybe those rascals have taken a page out of the North Vietnamese playbook, and they're just going to lay low for a couple of years until the Americans go home, then take over?
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:35 pm

Quoting JRadier (Reply 2):
So why do they claim they got them all out of the city, yet they have 13 percent to go...

"Routing" an enemy doesn't necessarily mean you've "eradicated" them. Literally they're saying they forced Al Qaeda to flee the city.

Also, I just took the article to mean they have to sweep 13 percent more of the city, not 13 percent more of Al Qaeda in the city.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
Mir
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:41 pm

Keep in mind that the article said "Al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia". Just because they have al-Qaeda in their name doesn't mean that they're affiliated with Osama's al-Qaeda, or that they are any serious threat.

Not to diminish the importance of hunting down all terror groups, since that is what Iraq needs. And there certainly has been progress in security. But I don't see this as a major breakthrough.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
airxliban
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:41 pm

Well to say that Al Qaeda has been routed out of a certain place implies that you can remove Al Qaeda terrorists in the same way that you can remove trees from a boulevard. That's not to disparage the efforts that the US forces have been making and the successes that have resulted. There does seem to be a decrease in the violence, but the real test is whether the security situation will stabilise in the long term.
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
b752fanatic
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:07 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
On the one hand, I don't want to applaud too loudly out of perhaps a superstition of celebrating too early. On the other, I feel like going back into old threads and pulling names of all those peoplewho were saying that everything is lost, the Surge is useless, and we should abandon Iraq immediately.

And yet 2007 was the deadliest year in US casualties? You think we are doing better over there? These people despise the US more and more every day. We are creating a united and concerted sentiment of hatred towards us.

How would you feel if for example in the Pacific ocean you have instead of a a huge mass of ocean, a continent, lets name it Pacifica continent, in which a country there is called "Pacifica state". The country is thrice the geographical size of the US. Has 3 Billion people, the GDP per capita is 5 times the American, the military is the biggest in the world, has more wealth than the European nations and the US combined, and they are labeled by the US and the vast majority of the world as the "world's police".

Let us think of this, they decide on doing a preemptive attack on the US, because they say that the US is conspiring with a "weapon of continental destruction" That would wipe out the entire Pacifica state if not the entire pacifica continent along with the underdeveloped south pacifica. Yet despite the UN's claim that there isn't such technology in the US for such a weapon, the ruler of Pacifica said that the US has the weapon and also had ties with the terror attacks of the major city of Pacifica city in which 50 thousand people died, and was concluded it was a religious extremist terrorist organization that apparently (Pacifica's claim) received support from the US government.

Pacifica then proceeds and attacks the major cities of the US, killing thousands of innocent civilians with the bombings, and then proceed on invading the US killing vasts numbers of US troops. Then they have victory in decimating the US armed forces and proceed to create a new US government appointed by the Pacifica government. After they depose the government they hang the US president whom was hiding in a bunker, judged and tried after finding that he was a war criminal. After searching for months they find no "weapons of continental destruction" and find no links between the US government and the attacks of Pacifica city, the international community starts to think that the war was because of energy reserves that the US had.

After the people of the US are somewhat OK with removing the despotic regime, they are now waiting for the occupying nation to leave the country and stop with the huge numbers of civilian killings and tortures (pictures appeared of hundreds of American people being tortured in a prison held by the Pacifica's intelligence forces). After the people of the US see the horrors and the atrocities of the war they become united against the occupying force.

Just imagine this, you are driving by the street and then you approach this convoy of diplomats from Pacifica, apparently your car's engine backfired and all of the sudden the convoy mistakes the backfire for gun fire and they begin shooting at you, and all of the cars in the avenue. They kill hundreds of civilians.. and they are a private militia from Pacifica.

How would you feel?

I think that it is always good to think that: "Don't do to others what you won't like to be done to you."
"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
 
JRadier
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:19 pm

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 4):
Literally they're saying they forced Al Qaeda to flee the city.

which is the same as what I said, "they claim they got them all out of the city", I didn't say anything about eradicating.

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 4):

Also, I just took the article to mean they have to sweep 13 percent more of the city, not 13 percent more of Al Qaeda in the city.

Which was my point, how can you say they are routed out, yet you have 13% more to go? How on earth do you know there are not more in that 13%?

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 7):
I think that it is always good to think that: "Don't do to others what you won't like to be done to you."

 bigthumbsup  That is the most sensible thing I've read on this forum about the war in quite some time. No disrespect to you, but I didn't think this could come from an American. You got the problem! Get your flame-suit ready tho....
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
PPVRA
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:21 pm

Yeah but who really deserves most of the credit here, the U.S. military (aka Al-Qaeda-magnet) or the insurgency revolt against Al-Qaeda that has been relatively well reported? Note that they did get some help from U.S. forces, but still.

I don't think the surge may really have anything (or much) to do with it, aside with coinciding in time.

[Edited 2007-11-08 15:32:32]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
b752fanatic
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:41 pm

Quoting JRadier (Reply 8):
That is the most sensible thing I've read on this forum about the war in quite some time. No disrespect to you, but I didn't think this could come from an American. You got the problem! Get your flame-suit ready tho....

Believe me there are vasts numbers of Americans that think the same way, and we are not hippies or anything of the sort, the policy of imperialistic expansion by the US has been exposed with the Iraq war. In which false pretexts were used into invading a nation that had not declared war on us, nor to any of our allies.

Not only the idealistic point of view is highly critical of this, but from a economic vantage point, the US can no longer afford such wars nor the actual inflated "defense" budget.
"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
 
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Jetsgo
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:12 am

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 7):
And yet 2007 was the deadliest year in US casualties? You think we are doing better over there?

I do. Since the surge began, troops deaths have continued to fall. They are now at a three year low.
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Flighty
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:16 am

Wow, Saddam did this years ago. And for doing it, we executed him. I do hope our soldiers do not meet the same fate.
 
b752fanatic
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:19 am

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 11):
I do. Since the surge began, troops deaths have continued to fall. They are now at a three year low.

I am glad that you are happy. I am not just content with any of our soldiers dying. Not even one.
"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
 
Flighty
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:22 am

And for another thing, Al Qaeda were brought into Baghdad due to a violent attack on the leadership of Iraq, which resulted in total collapse of Baghdad. Those violent attackers were USA soldiers who were obeying orders of a crazy and delusional US president. In my opinion following those orders was sort of honorable but not heroic. True heroes do not engage in illegal war. They stand up for their constitution instead. True heroes, when they are told to do something illegal, say no.

Our boys are brave and strong, but when America needed one true hero to stop this war -- when the Iraqi people needed someone to save them from the violence of the USA -- there was nobody. This is the story of one of history's saddest failures.
 
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Jetsgo
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:28 am

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 13):

I am glad that you are happy. I am not just content with any of our soldiers dying. Not even one.

Nobody should be. I don't support this war any more than you do. However the point is, we're there, and suddenly leaving would just turn things into an even bigger clusterfuck. May as well lower the deaths while we're there.
Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
 
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Tugger
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:30 am

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 10):
invading a nation that had not declared war on us

This is the saddest part of the whole thing to me (among many sad and tragic events and actions), that we INVADED another country. Yes I know all the arguments that have been brought to explain it. But plainly and simply we invaded another country that had not attacked us, it had only threatened.... no wait it didn't do that either.... it just puffed up its chest and disregarded the UN, which members of this very administration has described as "anti US" and weak and worthless.

Back to my point, we are the great democracy ever on this planet (or so we think) and we invaded another country outright something we had never done before. (Yes, we have supported overthows, coups, and the like but it was alway behind the scenes which is a somewhat common if unspoken action in this world.)

Tug
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AirCop
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:34 am

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
Maj. Gen. Joseph F. Fil Jr., commander of United States forces in Baghdad,

Quite frankly at this point, I don't believe a word coming from the administration/Army leadership regarding Iraq. I just as soon hear it from the grunts as to what is really happening over there.
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:35 am

Lets see the long term effects of this surge. I dont understand the numbers, apparently the number of US troops are down, but just a couple of days ago I heard that by Nov. 1st of this year, it had already become the deadliest year for American troops. It seems like the insurgents get driven out of a city, only to regroup and gain support in another part of Iraq, it happened in Fallujah, and in Al Anbar province. Until then, we can never be too positive about the future in Iraq, the ongoing violence will continue, secretarianism is even greater in Iraq that ever before, and the country is bound to be in a full fledged civil war, if it isnt already. I think the Troops have done all that has been asked of them, but it seems like a lost cause.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
lobster
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:36 am

Quoting JRadier (Reply 8):
No disrespect to you, but I didn't think this could come from an American.

Yeah, because every American thinks the same. Just like all the Dutch are a bunch of pot head, prostitute loving, shroom heads.  Yeah sure
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:49 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 18):
but just a couple of days ago I heard that by Nov. 1st of this year, it had already become the deadliest year for American troops.

I'm not interested in getting into another debate about Iraq. No one's opinion is going to change. But I just want to make a a point of clarification: The answer is both are true. Yes this was the deadliest year, but charting the causalities on a graph, shows that the first half was very deadly. While the second half featured the dramatic decrease in deaths.

May was the deadliest month this year, and this was when we went on the large offensive against insurgents in Anbar and Baghdad. The sharp decreases followed this new offensive, coupled with the surge. The trick is continuing the success we're having. And most importantly, real progress needs to be made on the political arena inside Iraq.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g52/UH60PilotIraq/Random%201/Imageaspx.png

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Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:57 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 20):
The answer is both are true. Yes this was the deadliest year, but charting the causalities on a graph, shows that the first half was very deadly. While the second half featured the dramatic decrease in deaths.

I see

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 20):
real progress needs to be made on the political arena inside Iraq.

Agreed
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:11 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 17):

Quite frankly at this point, I don't believe a word coming from the administration/Army leadership regarding Iraq.

They've given you every reason not to.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 17):
I just as soon hear it from the grunts as to what is really happening over there.

Or from Iraqi civilians.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 20):
The trick is continuing the success we're having.

With pre-surge troop levels and an attack on Iran.  pessimist 

It's becoming increasingly difficult for me to get excited about "developments" like this. This war has done potentially irreversible damage to Iraqi society. It has virtually decimated civil infrastructure in the country, created massive external and internal population displacements and done virtually nothing to improve the prospects for peace in the Middle East. There's virtually no plausible post-war (assuming it ends) situation I can think of at this point that would make me concede this war was worth its cost.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:19 am

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
On the one hand, I don't want to applaud too loudly out of perhaps a superstition of celebrating too early.

Agreed. I am concerened what happens when the forces are deployed out. Will the insurgents get a foothold back into Baghdad? I think, for now, we leave well enough alone, forget about Presidential politics, and leave the troop level where it's at thorugh at last 2008. I fear if we drop the troop levels, the bad guys can get back in.

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 7):
And yet 2007 was the deadliest year in US casualties? You think we are doing better over there?

It was John F. Kennedy that said "The cost of freedom is always high, and Americans have always paid it." Achieving something significant militarily, like driving out Al Qaeda from Baghdad, doesnt come at a cheap price. If we are to be successful, and turn the tide for good in Iraq, it will come at a price. We owe it to the Iraqi people.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
L-188
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:21 am

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 7):
How would you feel if for example in the Pacific ocean you have instead of a a huge mass of ocean, a continent, lets name it Pacifica continent, in which a country there is called "Pacifica state". The country is thrice the geographical size of the US. Has 3 Billion people, the GDP per capita is 5 times the American, the military is the biggest in the world, has more wealth than the European nations and the US combined, and they are labeled by the US and the vast majority of the world as the "world's police".

Why aren't you just calling this country "CHINA"???

I am not going to put a lot of stock into these numbers, but I do hope that we are on the down-swing.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
b752fanatic
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:51 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 23):
It was John F. Kennedy that said "The cost of freedom is always high, and Americans have always paid it." Achieving something significant militarily, like driving out Al Qaeda from Baghdad, doesnt come at a cheap price. If we are to be successful, and turn the tide for good in Iraq, it will come at a price. We owe it to the Iraqi people.

What guarantee do we have that we will totally eliminate Al Qaeda from Iraq? If what our presence there only fuels more hatred towards the west.

No country likes to be invaded, please read my reply number 7, and you will know why.
"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
 
baroque
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:14 am

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 25):
No country likes to be invaded, please read my reply number 7, and you will know why.

And when the invasion is compounded by a disgraceful attempt at administration of the conquered country, there is a great deal to recover from.

It is not as if Al Q in Mesopotamia was something that was going strong under Saddam, it flourished under the coalition of the billing. And this particular bill will continue to fall due.

By the way B752, I like the way your Pacifa was transmogrified to China, which has nothing to do with the price of fish. Paranoia is a powerful force.

But Klaus is right, how nice of them to wear badges. If by any chance they do not wear badges, then presumably they turned in nil returns for the surveys of Al Q activities.

[Edited 2007-11-08 20:40:33]
 
CF188A
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:22 am

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
BAGHDAD, Nov. 7 --- American forces have routed Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, the Iraqi militant network, from every neighborhood of Baghdad, a top American general said today, allowing American troops involved in the "surge" to depart as planned.

that is political slang for "we are screwed , we need to get out of here soon , and hey .. I will just tell everyone we have captured or killed or driven out "all" Al Qaeda so we can declare victory and leave!
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow~ RIP ... LJFM
 
Falcon84
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:26 am

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 25):
What guarantee do we have that we will totally eliminate Al Qaeda from Iraq?

Only idiots ask for guarantees in life. There are only two guarantees in life, that you are born, and you die. Those are the guarentees i'll give you. You will probably never totallly eliminate Al Qaeda from Iraq. They will always have their sympathizers. So ask someone else to give you a written lifetime warrenty.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:34 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 23):
We owe it to the Iraqi people.

It's nice to tell the Iraqi people what we owe them, but it seems the majority of them have wanted U.S. forces out of their country for quite some time.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 26):
And when the invasion is compounded by a disgraceful attempt at administration of the conquered country, there is a great deal to recover from.

This is something that a lot of people have completely missed in the United States. While the Bush Administration loves to talk about "liberating" Iraq, the country has been treated largely as one that has been conquered--not liberated. The CPA's purging of "Baathist" civil servants (doctors, teachers, engineers, etc. who were only party members so that they could have a job) and soldiers (young men with military training who suddenly found themselves unemployed) was one of the most blatant examples of Bush's determination to turn Iraq into a free-market playground for companies like Halliburton, KBR and Dyncorp--all of whom stood to make a killing off the reconstruction of Iraq (a task that Bush apparently didn't believe Iraqis had any interest in). The massive (and massively unpopular) privatization of Iraqi state industries following the fall of Saddam Hussein was another example...I could go on...American companies contracted out to design new curriculums for Iraqi schools, the push to privatize Iraqi oil, that monstrosity of an embassy in the green zone, permanent military bases, etc. etc. etc. Iraqis recognized early that the American neocon plan was to take their "clean slate" in the Middle East and build their vision of a western (free-trade, corporate friendly, anti-Iranian) democracy in Iraq, and they had none of it. Iraqis were happy to be rid of Saddam Hussein, but most were under the impression that the U.S. was in their country to take him out, pack up and go home. When that didn't happen (and let's not forget--there are no plans for it to happen even at this point), the liberators became the conquerers and the occupiers.
 
b752fanatic
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:39 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 26):
And when the invasion is compounded by a disgraceful attempt at administration of the conquered country, there is a great deal to recover from.

It is not as if Al Q in Mesopotamia was something that was going strong under Saddam, if flourished under the coalition of the billing. And this particular bill will continue to fall due.

Man, I tell you, getting involved in the middle east is a very delicate subject, even since Napoleon's conquest of Egypt it has shown that they despise the hegemony of the West.

What happened in Iran when the US deposed their ruler and placed the Shah, and that hatred grew to such level.. I have the feeling that Iraq would become another Pakistan, and look how that is right now, the people hate their ruler because he has very strong ties with the west.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 26):
By the way B752, I like the way your Pacifa was transmogrified to China, which has nothing to do with the price of fish. Paranoia is a powerful force.

China after we have finished and given up with the war on "terror" would be our next aim. The propaganda will come for more spending on defense that would "defend" us from the growing "powerful" and "threatening with our [liberty]" Chinese military. And yes another chapter of politics of fear will open that would justify our overspending and keep a continuous billion dollar deficit in our budget.
"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:43 am

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 30):

China after we have finished and given up with the war on "terror" would be our next aim. The propaganda will come for more spending on defense that would "defend" us from the growing "powerful" and "threatening with our [liberty]" Chinese military. And yes another chapter of politics of fear will open that would justify our overspending and keep a continuous billion dollar deficit in our budget.

There are too many cards in each side's respective hands there for either of them to get too aggressive. That said, I think the decline of U.S. power (a decline that's been exacerbated by this insane "war on terror") concurrent with the rise of China as a major global player is going to make it impossible for the U.S. to ever go toe to toe with China in the first place.
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:44 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 29):
It's nice to tell the Iraqi people what we owe them, but it seems the majority of them have wanted U.S. forces out of their country for quite some time.

 rotfl , that is something I never understood as If the Iraqis are going to greet Americans with open arms  Yeah sure. Most Iraqis, Sunni, Shiite, and even Kurds view this as an occupation.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
baroque
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:58 am

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 30):
Man, I tell you, getting involved in the middle east is a very delicate subject, even since Napoleon's conquest of Egypt it has shown that they despise the hegemony of the West.

It did not go that well with either Caesar or Mark Anthony come to that. Probably the success of Alexander is exaggerated a bit too as the stories were not written by the Persians.

The really odd thing is to consider how long Roosevelt spent lecturing Churchill on the ills of Empire and how much of the US military strategy was devoted to making life for the British and the French more difficult post WW II - not the Dutch, they had a special agreement.

Then to see how quickly this view was forgotten in the US just at the time when it occurred to the UK that holding on to Empire was not a good idea.

Then, as Guns comments, to add to the usual panoply of troubles associated with occupation, the extra irritation of privatizing state owned assets. Well - breathtaking. One problem seems to be that a proportion of the US cannot perceive that selling state owned assets is viewed as organized theft, with accompanying violent reactions. And there is no real sign that the push for privatization has eased. One problem is the perceived size of the oil prize - you would think that Putin's recent actions would have caused a rethink, but so far, it seems not.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 29):
d build their vision of a western (free-trade, corporate friendly, anti-Iranian) democracy in Iraq

True, but they KNEW, better than anything else they knew that the main Shiite forces were backed by Iran. All in all, it defies belief that it happened, and even more that it happened the way it did.  thumbsdown 
 
b752fanatic
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:00 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 28):
Only idiots ask for guarantees in life. There are only two guarantees in life, that you are born, and you die. Those are the guarentees i'll give you. You will probably never totallly eliminate Al Qaeda from Iraq. They will always have their sympathizers. So ask someone else to give you a written lifetime warrenty.

Please, I beg you don't be so defensive. I read your comment and you said that liberty has its price, but how long do you think we should be in Iraq trying to keep the "liberty" and doing everything possible for Al Quaeda to disappear? Our presence their is unnecessary since day one, a country could only be free if and only if their population seeks its freedom independently, not depending on a foreign nation to seek for their "freedom". Whilst gaining their "freedom" they found themselves arbitrarily invaded and occupied by a western nation. We should leave and let them work out their problems themselves.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 31):
There are too many cards in each side's respective hands there for either of them to get too aggressive. That said, I think the decline of U.S. power (a decline that's been exacerbated by this insane "war on terror") concurrent with the rise of China as a major global player is going to make it impossible for the U.S. to ever go toe to toe with China in the first place.

I guess it is not too late for all the dominant nations in the world to disarm? But it is only wishful thinking we could avoid a lot of blood and despair. (not counting the amount of money saved that could be destined to fight real problems)
"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
 
gunsontheroof
Posts: 3226
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 33):

True, but they KNEW, better than anything else they knew that the main Shiite forces were backed by Iran. All in all, it defies belief that it happened, and even more that it happened the way it did. thumbsdown

One of the objectives of this invasion (and without question the main reason the U.S. stood by while Saddam crushed Shiite uprisings after the first Gulf War) was to insure that once Saddam Hussein was removed from power, leaders that the U.S. viewed favorably would take his place. The palpable disappointment of the Bush Administration following Iraq's endorsement of the UIA at the ballot box made their desire for Iraqi leadership without ties to Tehran pretty obvious to most people. The current political situation in the region all but insures a continued U.S. presence in Iraq--there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that the Bush Administration is going to let what is probably the most important energy producing region in the world fall completely under the control of Shiite leaders in Iran and Iraq (or for that matter, should the political situation become more unstable--the oil-rich Shiite regions of Saudi Arabia). Of course, the war isn't really about oil...
 
b752fanatic
Posts: 892
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:15 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 33):
The really odd thing is to consider how long Roosevelt spent lecturing Churchill on the ills of Empire and how much of the US military strategy was devoted to making life for the British and the French more difficult post WW II - not the Dutch, they had a special agreement.

Exactly!, do you know why? Because in order to become an Empire you ought not to have competition. FDR was to my belief the greatest leader of our nation in the 20th century, however, he did created this idea of the American empire which we have today, and began after WWII.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 33):
Then, as Guns comments, to add to the usual panoply of troubles associated with occupation, the extra irritation of privatizing state owned assets. Well - breathtaking. One problem seems to be that a proportion of the US cannot perceive that selling state owned assets is viewed as organized theft, with accompanying violent reactions. And there is no real sign that the push for privatization has eased

The real use of US armed forces in Iraq I believe is to protect the spoils, and keep them away from being targeted, that's the real use.... or then why should we still be there? and appears Presidential hopeful Rudy does not intend to leave. (so the same agenda)
"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
 
lobster
Posts: 653
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:50 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 32):
Most Iraqis, Sunni, Shiite, and even Kurds view this as an occupation.

Just out of curiosity have you been to Iraq? Have you spoken to an Iraqi who currently lives in Iraq? Or just getting you knowledge from our wonderful so called news? Just wondering how you know what most Iraqis are thinking.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:16 am

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
abandon Iraq immediately.

an end to the violence and continual bloodshed and a curbing of extremist movements might be a positive factor to have an end of the US occupation. AND as I hope a beginning for a real re-start of the Iraqi economy, which has been troubled since 1982, since Saddam started his war against Iran.
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that the NYT only brought these news on page 19 is understandable, as they in the past too often had triumphant news from the military leadership, followed by disasters.
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"abandon" ? the question is not about "abandon" anybody, the question is of ending the occupation
-

[Edited 2007-11-09 00:37:54]
 
ual777
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:31 am

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 36):
The real use of US armed forces in Iraq I believe is to protect the spoils, and keep them away from being targeted, that's the real use.... or then why should we still be there? and appears Presidential hopeful Rudy does not intend to leave. (so the same agenda)

If you think that then you are an idiot. The troops are executing a MAJOR strategy shift enacted by Patraeus and it is working. The Iraqi people are realizing that we are the good guys, as they originally thought, until we screwed it up with the "bull in the china shop" approach in 2003-04.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
zak
Posts: 1926
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:33 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 20):

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g5...x.png

all you can say is that this year has been horrible and there was a month of sub annual average deaths just now. there have always been ups and downs since the start of the whole quagmire, it might aswell return to the ~80 deaths per month level it was around for about most of the year. this month and a half of lesser casualties can not be considered a trend, given the duration and development of the war.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 20):
The trick is continuing the success we're having.

the u.s. has not had any real success or progress in iraq. as long as any success is only tactical, it does not matter. there is no coherent and WORKING plan regarding the strategical and political development. as long as that is the case, there can be 500 fallujahs taken over, it will just be bloodshed with zero progress and alot of death and grief for nothing.

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 30):
And yes another chapter of politics of fear will open that would justify our overspending and keep a continuous billion dollar deficit in our budget.

indeed, it is sad that the 9-11 attacks were abused the way they were, to milk the country and future generations in favour of shareholders and such. i wonder if a democratic president will be able to break the trend of paranoia that has been re-established by GWB.
think about how good times it were after the end of the cold war, everyone was making money and people were better off, then 9-11 struck and the usa went "DUCK AND COVER, hi mccarthy!" whilst the government gave handouts to their affilated corporation buddies.
its time the usa gets back to being the respectable country it was, out of iraq and back to making sense.
imagine the respect the u.s. would have gotten if 600bn $ would have been spent on useful things, like providing clean drinking water for the whole third world, at a fraction of the cost of what iraq would have cost.
10=2
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:39 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
"Al Quaida"

it anyway would be Al Qaeda !  Big grin  Wink or maybe
el Qaeda International (Iraq) LLC
- and in smaller script :
a member of the elQaeda International Group
-




Quoting Ronglimeng (Reply 3):
Maybe those rascals have taken a page out of the North Vietnamese playbook, and they're just going to lay low for a couple of years until the Americans go home, then take over?

Not really, they only can live as long as the US-Americans are around in Iraq, as they are a kind of parasites on the US-Americans and will be wiped out after their defacto-benefactors will have left
-

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
"Al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia". Just because they have al-Qaeda in their name doesn't mean that they're affiliated with Osama's al-Qaeda, or that they are any serious threat.

-
"el Qaeda Iraq" just like many other "el Qaeda" organisations in the world, is just a kind of franchisee. Looks as if Osama Bin Laden and Dr Zawahiri have become the McDonalds of terrorism
-
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:59 am

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 39):
The Iraqi people are realizing that we are the good guys, as they originally thought, until we screwed it up with the "bull in the china shop" approach in 2003-04.

-
Not really, they just are realizing that the REALLY evil guys are those "religiously inspired" extremists and that those US-Americans are the lesser evil. But, do not get into illusions, these lessor evil boys still are the occupiers. The real trouble for most Iraqis rather is A) how to get rid of both and B) where to set the priorities. And I hope that their conclusion is that the right approach is first to get rid of the murderous clans, and to see the US-Americans as the next thing to overcome. Overcome in a peaceful way.
-
 
PC12Fan
Posts: 1978
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:24 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
Note that this story was buried on page 19 of the New York Times.

Because peace is boring.  irked 
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
b752fanatic
Posts: 892
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 1:44 am

RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:49 pm

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 39):
The Iraqi people are realizing that we are the good guys, as they originally thought, until we screwed it up with the "bull in the china shop" approach in 2003-04.

Prove to me with statistics what the Iraqi people really feel about us. It is not in your place to think for them in regards to such a subject, no nation, no country likes to be invaded (I guess we would only understand that if we get invaded). If you think based on seeing two or three Iraqis that your statement is true that they are "realizing that we are the good guys" I think you are led by your fanaticism and US propaganda.

The fact is even in Turkey which is more close to the west than any other muslim nation they have today more hatred towards the US than before 2001. Tell me why do you think Iraqi's should think better than the Turkish?.
"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:27 pm

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 45):
The fact is even in Turkey which is more close to the west than any other Muslim nation they have today more hatred towards the US than before 2001.

I spent quite a bit of time in Turkey this year , working with many locals. I did not encounter hatred (Like I do in Germany ,Belgium / France etc.) . As a matter of fact I heard more negative commentary about the Islamic radicals taking over their govenremnt than anything. Of course they are not going to say .. "We hate the US" but spending time with the working people I did not here any US bashing. They are worried about people closing down their nightclubs and discos etc .. not the US. I would say you are more afraid of the US than anyone I met in Turkey..


I am happy to here the optimism in the attached article , but frankly I am getting concerned about a major resurgence. It may only take one day with a spectacular series of attacks to blow the optimism out the window. We need to be very careful here , our guys and gals are still in harms way big time.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:58 pm

Quoting Zak (Reply 40):
the u.s. has not had any real success or progress in iraq. as long as any success is only tactical, it does not matter. there is no coherent and WORKING plan regarding the strategical and political development. as long as that is the case, there can be 500 fallujahs taken over, it will just be bloodshed with zero progress and alot of death and grief for nothing.

What the hell did I tell you? I posted that chart for clarification for people who were confused... not to initiate another pathetic Iraq War debate. Nothing said in this thread is new. Everything said here, has already been said in the 1,000 other Iraq War threads.

You can bitch all you want about what my opinion of Iraq is. I went there, twice, saw the changes and improvements. You are not going to convince me otherwise, and I am not going to convince you otherwise. So let it go, stop bitching, and realize that these Iraq War threads are about as futile as debates on abortion. No one's opinion is going to change, and the arguments are becoming more and more pathetic (AKA: B752's lame little story about Pacifica  Yeah sure).

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:10 pm

Quoting Zak (Reply 40):
its time the usa gets back to being the respectable country it was, out of iraq and back to making sense.
imagine the respect the u.s. would have gotten if 600bn $ would have been spent on useful things, like providing clean drinking water for the whole third world, at a fraction of the cost of what iraq would have cost.

Just as a point of information-assuming that you're really in Greenland as much as I'm in Algeria-what has Greenland done to provide fresh water for the third world?

Interested minds want to know.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
lobster
Posts: 653
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:03 pm

RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:17 pm

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 7):
How would you feel if for example in the Pacific ocean you have instead of a a huge mass of ocean, a continent, lets name it Pacifica continent, in which a country there is called "Pacifica state". The country is thrice the geographical size of the US. Has 3 Billion people, the GDP per capita is 5 times the American, the military is the biggest in the world, has more wealth than the European nations and the US combined, and they are labeled by the US and the vast majority of the world as the "world's police".

Let us think of this, they decide on doing a preemptive attack on the US, because they say that the US is conspiring with a "weapon of continental destruction" That would wipe out the entire Pacifica state if not the entire pacifica continent along with the underdeveloped south pacifica. Yet despite the UN's claim that there isn't such technology in the US for such a weapon, the ruler of Pacifica said that the US has the weapon and also had ties with the terror attacks of the major city of Pacifica city in which 50 thousand people died, and was concluded it was a religious extremist terrorist organization that apparently (Pacifica's claim) received support from the US government.

Pacifica then proceeds and attacks the major cities of the US, killing thousands of innocent civilians with the bombings, and then proceed on invading the US killing vasts numbers of US troops. Then they have victory in decimating the US armed forces and proceed to create a new US government appointed by the Pacifica government. After they depose the government they hang the US president whom was hiding in a bunker, judged and tried after finding that he was a war criminal. After searching for months they find no "weapons of continental destruction" and find no links between the US government and the attacks of Pacifica city, the international community starts to think that the war was because of energy reserves that the US had.

After the people of the US are somewhat OK with removing the despotic regime, they are now waiting for the occupying nation to leave the country and stop with the huge numbers of civilian killings and tortures (pictures appeared of hundreds of American people being tortured in a prison held by the Pacifica's intelligence forces). After the people of the US see the horrors and the atrocities of the war they become united against the occupying force.

Just imagine this, you are driving by the street and then you approach this convoy of diplomats from Pacifica, apparently your car's engine backfired and all of the sudden the convoy mistakes the backfire for gun fire and they begin shooting at you, and all of the cars in the avenue. They kill hundreds of civilians.. and they are a private militia from Pacifica.

"

LOL!! Thats the funniest shit I've read all day!  rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 


After reading that I've realized how big and bad and mean and evil America is!!
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
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RE: Al Qaeda Driven Out Of Baghdad

Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:30 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 46):
No one's opinion is going to change, and the arguments are becoming more and more pathetic (AKA: B752's lame little story about Pacifica  ).

He merely relabeled the nations and stayed pretty close to the undisputed facts. So what about the story did you find "pathetic"?  eyebrow 

An improved capability of the people responsible for the invasion to see the situation from the perspective of the iraqis would quite probably have prevented most of the problems we've seen.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 41):
it anyway would be Al Qaeda

Transliterations from the arabic seem to be somewhat diffuse. In Germany it's almost always "Al Quaida".

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