diamond
Posts: 3000
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:01 am

Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:38 pm

The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced


... American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board. ... By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier ... According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy ...





So how does this sort of thing happen? New stealth capabilities of the Chinese? Or were the Americans asleep on the job?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv..._article_id=492804&in_page_id=1811

edited to add link.

[Edited 2007-11-12 13:39:40]
Blank.
 
Springbok747
Posts: 4007
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:13 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:48 pm

Maybe the Chinese got lost. Most likely this must have been a mistake by the Chinese. And its a good thing..at least the US Navy can now take measures to fix these security issues.

Interestingly, this story is nowhere to be seen either on BBC or CNN. Wonder why its not being reported there.
אני תומך בישראל
 
tsaord
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:46 pm

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:51 pm

LOL. They know they were just sending a message to the US. I suspect the USA will not be the only "superpower" for much longer. Not saying that we will all be at war, but some other countries will gain a little "stroke".
there are icons, then there are legends, then there is rick flair
 
mham001
Posts: 4233
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:54 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 1):
Interestingly, this story is nowhere to be seen either on BBC or CNN. Wonder why its not being reported there.

Maybe because it was first reported at least a week ago, although not so widely.
 
express1
Posts: 847
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:08 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:55 pm

Who phoned for a Chinese!!!!

dave
David.S cavanagh since 1961,if you can do better,then show me.
 
cactushp
Posts: 324
Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 3:36 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:08 pm

Submarines are very difficult to detect, even with the US's technology. Still, this should be a wake up call to the Navy that Chinese subs are a viable threat to carrier battle groups.
Sorry, I was on the landline
 
express1
Posts: 847
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:08 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:18 pm

Quoting CactusHP (Reply 5):

All they needed to complete the situation was a Russian sub to pop up along side the chinese sub, now that will upset the apple cart!!!

dave
David.S cavanagh since 1961,if you can do better,then show me.
 
Rara
Posts: 2296
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:41 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:21 pm

A recurring theme in a.net threads about Chinese military power is the quick use of the words "war" and "threat". Can't see at all where this is coming from. First of all, the Chinese military budget is ridiculously low compared to the American one. Second, virtually never in their history have the Chinese been militarily aggressive to outside forces.

If there's anything like a military threat between the US and China, it's surely coming from the US and not vice versa.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
Blackbird
Posts: 3384
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 10:48 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:23 pm

Three words -- Super-cavitating bullets...

If we got those we could blow up any torpedo even underwater


Andrea Kent

[Edited 2007-11-12 14:24:01]
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7797
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:24 pm

Quoting CactusHP (Reply 5):
Submarines are very difficult to detect, even with the US's technology

A Diesel-Electric...?? Please....!!!

Quoting Diamond (Thread starter):
So how does this sort of thing happen?

Maybe it was allowed to happen...they knew they were there. Just didn't want to be bothered by a pesky fly.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:32 pm

Quoting Diamond (Thread starter):
So how does this sort of thing happen? New stealth capabilities of the Chinese? Or were the Americans asleep on the job?

What was the USN supposed to do? Sink the sub?

Submarines are stealthy - that is their forte. Will they occasionally slip through defenses? Of course. Would it have happened in a real combat situation? Who knows.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 9):
Maybe it was allowed to happen...they knew they were there. Just didn't want to be bothered by a pesky fly.

What better news for a USN shipbuilding program than they need more escort ships for their carriers?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Mir
Posts: 19093
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:36 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 7):
Second, virtually never in their history have the Chinese been militarily aggressive to outside forces.

They've been getting pretty frisky of late. First shooting down the satellite, and now this.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:45 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 9):
Quoting CactusHP (Reply 5):
Submarines are very difficult to detect, even with the US's technology

A Diesel-Electric...?? Please....!!!

A diesel-electric sub running on batteries is much quiter than a nuclear one. The same applies to the hydrogen fuel cell powered ones of the German navy. The only drawback is that a diesel-electric sub needs to surface after some time (depending on the capacity of the batteries and the speed) and to start it's noisy diesel engine to recharge the batteries. A nuclear sub can stay under water for a much longer period of time.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Blackbird
Posts: 3384
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 10:48 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:51 pm

It's not just the Chinese that are getting aggressive lately, the Russians have as well.

But the Chinese is a great threat that we should give more attention to...


Andrea Kent
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:08 pm

Quoting Diamond (Thread starter):

So how does this sort of thing happen? New stealth capabilities of the Chinese?

Not new technology... but certainly new audacity and determination, two highly sought after qualities for military leaders such as sub commanders.

Diesel submarines can be very quiet, especially when they are operating at very low speeds, or drifting. The Song class is similar, in many design features, with the Russian built Kilo class (which China, Iran, Libya, India also own).

Quoting Diamond (Thread starter):
Or were the Americans asleep on the job?

I would say it was a mix of complacency on the part of the American commanders, and cunning and audacity on the part of the Chinese.

If the battle group was on a war footing, and aggressively conducting ASW... then it would have been much harder for the Chinese boat driver to slip through the screen. But nonetheless, I hope this reminds people that we should not underestimate the Chinese. They are advancing rapidly, and their goal of a blue water navy, that can project power beyond their territorial waters, is apparently moving ahead rapidly, as well.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:15 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 9):

A Diesel-Electric...?? Please....!!!

Sure a diesel punching a hole through the water, at full speed, is louder than a dance club. But a diesel at very low speed, or drifting, can be almost undetectable.

One of the quietest submarines currently serving is the German built Type 212A, which is a diesel electric.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
Rara
Posts: 2296
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:41 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:15 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):


Quoting Rara (Reply 7):
Second, virtually never in their history have the Chinese been militarily aggressive to outside forces.

They've been getting pretty frisky of late. First shooting down the satellite, and now this.

With "aggressive", I mean e.g. attacking other countries such as Iraq. Shooting down (an own) satellite and surfacing close to another country's vessel play in a different league, wouldn't you agree?

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 13):

But the Chinese is a great threat that we should give more attention to...

If you like, give all attention to it that you want. In the end it's not going to matter much.

Watching Russia more closely would be a much more productive use of your time...
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
PSA53
Posts: 2928
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:54 pm

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:22 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 1):
Interestingly, this story is nowhere to be seen either on BBC or CNN. Wonder why its not being reported there.

It might create a panic on Wall St. not to mention a political fiasco.I looked at some Chinese stocks today and they dumped big time today.JRJC,CTDC,YTEC,CSUN for example.I not sure if it had anything to do with it.

There goes the cheap labor.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 13):
But the Chinese is a great threat that we should give more attention to...

Understatement.
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
LHMark
Posts: 7048
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 2:18 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:25 pm

Hmmm... maybe not such a bad idea to keep those S-3s around in the ASW role.
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:30 pm

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 18):
Hmmm... maybe not such a bad idea to keep those S-3s around in the ASW role.

Not only is retiring the S-3 a bad idea... we're not even fielding a proper replacement for it.

We're also building only one Virginia Class per year. It's unlikely we'll be properly replacing the Ticonderoga Class, and the Zumwalt may face cost increases and project delays. We also need to start fielding a replacement for the MK-48 torpedo and the AGM-84 Harpoon.

Much to do.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13200
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:40 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 7):
First of all, the Chinese military budget is ridiculously low compared to the American one.

The Chinese Government is obviously not as open about what it actually spends on military and intelligence, many Chinese companies are mere fronts for the Chinese military so it's impossible to have an accurate accounting of there budgets.

Quoting Rara (Reply 7):
Second, virtually never in their history have the Chinese been militarily aggressive to outside forces.

Half a million Chinese crossed into Korea to fight United Nations forces.

As for this sub incident, as many know Carrier Battle groups are not only surface ships but also accompanied by 1-2 attack subs. It's quite possible this Chinese sub had someone behind them for quite some time, and they did not want them to know it through surfacing or press releases.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
tsaord
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:46 pm

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:09 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 13):
But the Chinese is a great threat that we should give more attention to...

A threat to what?? Is the US Government going to invade them for some reason?

I guess any country is gets stronger military wise will be a threat to the good ol US of A
there are icons, then there are legends, then there is rick flair
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:18 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 20):
It's quite possible this Chinese sub had someone behind them for quite some time, and they did not want them to know it through surfacing or press releases.

But the problem with this assumption is that typically the US sub will make its presence known prior to the enemy sub entering weapons range of the carrier. They will harrass the contact, and make life generally uncomfortable... attempting to scare them away.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
diamond
Posts: 3000
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:01 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:27 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 10):
What was the USN supposed to do? Sink the sub?

Of course not.

They were 'supposed' to be aware, and not be surprised by it. That's the only reason this is newsworthy.
Blank.
 
graphic
Posts: 1293
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:41 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:34 am

I don't know what the whole trouble is over this whole thing, probably just some sailor ordering out some wok and lo mein and this was the only means of delivery.

...or...

[Insert Asian driver comment here]
Demand Media fails at life
 
lobster
Posts: 653
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:03 pm

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:35 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 16):
attacking other countries such as Iraq

And there it is folks!! Only took 16 replies and the title of this thread is "Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk"

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr  banghead 

Quoting Tsaord (Reply 21):
A threat to what??

Well, China does tend to lean more toward North Korea than us. Not to mention the 2001 episode where China held 24 American crew members hostage while one of it's fighter pilots played "chicken" with an EP-3.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:57 am

Quoting Diamond (Reply 23):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 10):What was the USN supposed to do? Sink the sub?
Of course not.

They were 'supposed' to be aware, and not be surprised by it. That's the only reason this is newsworthy.

and you know for sure that they were?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10002
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:00 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
A nuclear sub can stay under water for a much longer period of time.

It is a number of weeks I believe, even at top whack.

They really should have seen this coming - unless of course the Chinese were doing a 'dry run' with some form of new technology implemented on that particular submarines design which makes a it less detectable on radar or sonar... perhaps something similar to the stealth ships or Zumwalt class subs on order by the US.


Dan Smile
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
diamond
Posts: 3000
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:01 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:04 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 26):
and you know for sure that they were?

American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.

According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.

The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.

One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.

The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon.

It also led to tense diplomatic exchanges, with shaken American diplomats demanding to know why the submarine was "shadowing" the U.S. fleet while Beijing pleaded ignorance and dismissed the affair as coincidence.




If you want to surmise from this that there was no surprise, go ahead. It matters not to me.
Blank.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:09 am

Quoting Diamond (Reply 28):
American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.

According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.

The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.

One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.

The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon.

It also led to tense diplomatic exchanges, with shaken American diplomats demanding to know why the submarine was "shadowing" the U.S. fleet while Beijing pleaded ignorance and dismissed the affair as coincidence.

ah yes, the famous anonymous source.

Sorry, but given the US military's penchant for overestimating the capabilities of our adversaries - remember the non-existent "bomber gap" - until I see someone vouch for the above who is willing to use his or her name, I take such exposes with a grain of salt.

But since I am retired military, I will check with my sources in the Pentagon tomorrow and get back to you.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
GPIARFF
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:36 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:13 am

Quoting Tsaord (Reply 21):
A threat to what?? Is the US Government going to invade them for some reason?

I guess any country is gets stronger military wise will be a threat to the good ol US of A

Uh, Yeah, the only point to having Armed Forces Is to have them stronger and better than anyone else, thus your strength becomes a deterrent and no one wants to mess with you. If you follow a policy that let's other countries military become as strong or stronger than yours it's no longer a deterrent. You might as well send all the troops home and let your military become world cops like most of the other countries. The only reason why most of the other NATO countries don't need a huge fighting force is because they are Friends with the " Good ol US of A " and everyone else knows if you mess with our friends your going to have to mess with us. In conclusion Yes!!! the US needs to maintain absolute supremacy of arms so that everyone else can get by with small little underpowered armies.

[Edited 2007-11-12 18:38:30]
Pa chiye ladan dlo ou bwe ( don't crap in your drinking water )
 
diamond
Posts: 3000
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:01 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:28 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 29):
I will check with my sources in the Pentagon tomorrow and get back to you

If you cannot identify your sources, don't bother. It would be no more credible than the article I cited.
Blank.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:32 am

Quoting Diamond (Reply 31):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 29):I will check with my sources in the Pentagon tomorrow and get back to you
If you cannot identify your sources, don't bother. It would be no more credible than the article I cited.

 rotfl  I see you've just realized the shortcomings of your own position!
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Mir
Posts: 19093
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:49 am



Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 27):
It is a number of weeks I believe, even at top whack.

More like a number of months. It would be longer were it not for the limited endurance of the crews.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:18 am



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 8):
Three words -- Super-cavitating bullets...

If we got those we could blow up any torpedo even underwater

Andrea Kent

You sound like the female equivalent of Dwight Schrute.  biggrin 

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 19):
Not only is retiring the S-3 a bad idea... we're not even fielding a proper replacement for it.

Would it even be necessary to design an all-new replacement? Besides upgrading the avionics and weapons systems, it seems to be a perfect solution as it is.

Provided the tooling still exists (a long shot, I know), would a modern, direct replacement end up being any different from a new-build S-3 updated with new avionics and electronics?

2H4
Intentionally Left Blank
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:49 am



Quoting Rara (Reply 7):
Second, virtually never in their history have the Chinese been militarily aggressive to outside forces.

Somebody apparently forgot to tell Taiwan, Tibet, North Vietnam (yes, they fought a war in the 1970's) Russia, the Phillipines (major pissing contest going on right now in the South China Sea over oil grounds), Korea.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:54 am

It's hard to get some good Chinese food in the middle of the ocean, I imagine.  Big grin

Quoting Tsaord (Reply 21):
A threat to what?? Is the US Government going to invade them for some reason?

You're joking? China, if it wanted, could put out a 100 million man army, could it not? Hell, more than that, if it wanted. They have 2 BILLION people. You have a resourse like that, you can, if you wanted to, invade just about anyone, couldn't you?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Springbok747
Posts: 4007
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:13 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:57 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 36):
They have 2 BILLION people.

Not quite - 1,321,851,888 ...but thats a hell of a lot of people. Don't want to be messing with them.
אני תומך בישראל
 
LHMark
Posts: 7048
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 2:18 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:45 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 36):
You have a resourse like that, you can, if you wanted to, invade just about anyone, couldn't you?

Not necessarily. Not if you have to do it by sea.
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:33 am



Quoting L-188 (Reply 35):
Quoting Rara (Reply 7):
Second, virtually never in their history have the Chinese been militarily aggressive to outside forces.

Somebody apparently forgot to tell Taiwan, Tibet, North Vietnam (yes, they fought a war in the 1970's) Russia, the Phillipines (major pissing contest going on right now in the South China Sea over oil grounds), Korea.

Don't forget the various Indian-Chinese confrontations, with China in all cases being the agressor, going for territorial expansion. The Indian nukes are not primarely aimed at Pakistan, but are mostly a deterrent against Chinese ambitions.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
BarfBag
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:13 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:49 am



Quoting Rara (Reply 16):
With "aggressive", I mean e.g. attacking other countries such as Iraq. Shooting down (an own) satellite and surfacing close to another country's vessel play in a different league, wouldn't you agree?

China has committed aggressive border incursions on the Sino-Indian border numerous times. As MD11Engineer mentioned, our strategic nuclear deterrent is directed at them, not at Pakistan as is commonly assumed. We don't need the ICBMs and SLBMs we're developing and testing now, to deter the latter. China is an aggressive nation. They haven't attacked far beyond their border because of their historical Cold War era homeland defence posture against the USSR (and the US before the 70s) did not lend themselves much force projection capability, something that's changing now.
 
User avatar
alberchico
Posts: 2949
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 5:52 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:06 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
They've been getting pretty frisky of late. First shooting down the satellite, and now this

That satellite was simply a test of a weapons concept that has been around for years.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 35):
Quoting Rara (Reply 7):
Second, virtually never in their history have the Chinese been militarily aggressive to outside forces.

Somebody apparently forgot to tell Taiwan, Tibet, North Vietnam (yes, they fought a war in the 1970's) Russia, the Phillipines (major pissing contest going on right now in the South China Sea over oil grounds), Korea.

None of those actions compares to the military actions of European or American military forces.
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:15 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 36):
You're joking? China, if it wanted, could put out a 100 million man army, could it not? Hell, more than that, if it wanted. They have 2 BILLION people. You have a resourse like that, you can, if you wanted to, invade just about anyone, couldn't you?

Actually no..........not a nation armed with nukes that is. For instance if the Chinese suddenly lost their minds and decided to send millions of soldiers over here to invade, nuclear weapons would be used to stop it.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:15 am



Quoting Rara (Reply 7):
, virtually never in their history have the Chinese been militarily aggressive to outside forces.

Remember the 1962. Hindi-chini bhai bhai betrayal  Smile

China has the numbers,though they can take more casualties.They can be a force to consider.I understand about Quality & Quantity.But numbers matter too.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:32 pm



Quoting CactusHP (Reply 5):
Submarines are very difficult to detect, even with the US's technology. Still, this should be a wake up call to the Navy that Chinese subs are a viable threat to carrier battle groups.

That's what comes from allowing the Chinese to make all our PCs and allowing them to corrupt US officials and steal our technology. Only a decade ago, Chinese submarines were known as "Helen Keller boats", noisy and easy to detect, and their poor sonar technology meant that they couldn't track you.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 9):
A Diesel-Electric...?? Please....!!!



Diesel boats are much more quiet than nukes. Reactors need to circulate water, and that makes noise.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:11 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 44):
That's what comes from allowing the Chinese to make all our PCs and allowing them to corrupt US officials and steal our technology.

Hardly. Don't you remember the Toshiba incident a couple of decades ago? I still won't buy a Toshiba product because of it.
International Homo of Mystery
 
frequentflyer
Posts: 708
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:22 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:40 pm



Quoting Rara (Reply 7):
virtually never in their history have the Chinese been militarily aggressive to outside forces.

Does not mean that they won't change. Besides, open your eyes and reckon that they are aggressive towards their own people internally, so guess what the next step is.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 14):
complacency on the part of the American commanders, and cunning and audacity on the part of the Chinese.

Agree. The silver lining is, next time this happens there could be more action. We sure won't let a dictatorship rule the sea. Especially amongst our own fleet.

One more signal towards Taiwan as well, who should get even more ready.
Take off and live
 
sprout5199
Posts: 1681
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:26 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:26 pm



Quoting STT757 (Reply 20):
As for this sub incident, as many know Carrier Battle groups are not only surface ships but also accompanied by 1-2 attack subs. It's quite possible this Chinese sub had someone behind them for quite some time, and they did not want them to know it through surfacing or press releases.

I believe this is what happened. Better to trail and collect info. The question is do we let the Chinese know that we can find thier subs? Sometimes its better play dumb and let them think they got away with something. Somewhere, some sub Capt has a few good "hull shots" that he only shows to other Capts.

Dan in Jupiter
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 1542
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:42 pm



Quoting GPIARFF (Reply 30):
Uh, Yeah, the only point to having Armed Forces Is to have them stronger and better than anyone else, thus your strength becomes a deterrent and no one wants to mess with you. If you follow a policy that let's other countries military become as strong or stronger than yours it's no longer a deterrent. You might as well send all the troops home and let your military become world cops like most of the other countries. The only reason why most of the other NATO countries don't need a huge fighting force is because they are Friends with the " Good ol US of A " and everyone else knows if you mess with our friends your going to have to mess with us. In conclusion Yes!!! the US needs to maintain absolute supremacy of arms so that everyone else can get by with small little underpowered armies.

you are correct on that one except which war did you win by yourselvs? maybe its th US that needs everyone elses help? just a point i thought id throw in there.

A chinese Sub did what subs are supposed to do, be undetected. I dont think it'll be long now before the chinese are the worlds biggest superpower and there might besome ill feeling on the matter.

Fred
Image
 
GPIARFF
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:36 am

RE: Chinese Submarine Surprises USS Kitty Hawk

Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:10 pm



Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 48):
you are correct on that one except which war did you win by yourselvs? maybe its th US that needs everyone elses help? just a point i thought id throw in there.

I hope no one took my statements to demean or belittle the soldiers of any of our allies. I'm a recent U.S. citizen, originally from Canada, and I respect the abilities and contributions of all the members of the armed forces that serve alongside those of the U.S. But I do believe that at least since 1941 the might of the US has been the major factor in keeping/making peace between what I consider the free world, and the controlled world ( i.e. U.S.S.R, Nazi Germany, and RED China.) I'll ask you personally, do you believe that it is no longer necessary for us to maintain military - first strike - supremacy? I think we do, and that is why if the information in this story is correct and the Chinese actually can put a sub in the middle of one of our carrier battle groups then we have cause for consternation.
Pa chiye ladan dlo ou bwe ( don't crap in your drinking water )

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: jpetekyxmd80, LittleFokker, meecrob, seb146 and 44 guests