Blackbird
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Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:50 pm

I'm wondering if the Church of Scientology should be labled a subversive organization (particularly when it becomes involved with politics) as the Communist Party was considered in the past.

There are all sorts of things they've done in England, in Australia, and in the US (They broke into FBI offices or spied on the FBI or something -- it was one of the biggest breaches of national security), and they have got two congressmen elected in California.

Any people who know more in this area should feel free to add details I might have missed.


SOURCES
- URL: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...+Scientology%22&btnG=Google+Search (you should find a lot of search results)
- URL: http://www.xenu.net/
- URL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Scientology


Andrea Kent
 
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:52 pm

In France the Church of Scientology isn't recognised as a religion. It is considered legally as a cult, and subject to government scrutiny. Not being a religion means they can't register as a charity, nor qualify for any state maintenance.
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IFEMaster
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:02 pm

Welcome back, Andrea Kent.

Should CoS be labelled a subversive organization? Tough call...

To me, it's clear that the founding elements of scientology are works of fiction by a SciFi writer. However, there are also plenty of people in the world who say that the Bible is fiction, that the Quran is fiction, that the book of Mormon is fiction. So...I guess all I could say is what's good for one is good for another.

Of course, that's ignoring the fact that Tom Cruise, who is a complete nut job, and not a very good one at that, is a Scientologist, and on that basis, I wouldn't let CoS out in public...
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LTU932
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:04 pm

In Germany, Scientology is not considered a church because evidence has shown that they're not a non-profit organisation, and is thus not eligible for whatever tax deductions they could get. As far as Germany is concerned, Scientology is just a sect, but one that makes a lot of money from its believers.

IMO Scientology should be outright banned.
 
Klaus
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organiza

Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:05 pm

They're officially considered to be a for-profit enterprise and not a religious community in Germany and are under surveillance by the constitution protection service since they clearly have the goal of overthrowing the democratic order. There are calls for an outright ban, but they've managed to evade that fate so far.

Yanking their tax exemption in the USA as well would be a good first step. It would also confirm their insane paranoia, but that's their problem.

They're a dangerous anti-democratic cult which operates with brainwashing and other aggressive manipulations of their victims. And from leaked internal information (and their spaced-out public scriptures) they do indeed seem to use subversive manipulations to gain material and political power.
 
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:41 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 4):
They're a dangerous anti-democratic cult

That begs the question: what religion isn't a cult?
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graphic
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:53 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3):

IMO Scientology should be outright banned.

That's a little bit Fascist now, isn't it? Yank their tax exemption and declare them a cult all you want (because they are), but no government has the right to deny its citizens the right to practice their beliefs (in a benign way), however odd they may be.
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Klaus
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organiza

Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:58 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
That begs the question: what religion isn't a cult?

There's a point... but a "cult" in the closer sense is an organisation which uses intense pressure on its victims to the point of brainwashing, trying to completely dominate the personality instead of more or less just trying to motivate people to show up in church.

The distinction is somewhat blurred, but Scientology is on the outer fringe and nowhere near the division line.
 
Klaus
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:01 am

Quoting Graphic (Reply 6):
That's a little bit Fascist now, isn't it? Yank their tax exemption and declare them a cult all you want (because they are), but no government has the right to deny its citizens the right to practice their beliefs (in a benign way), however odd they may be.

Sure it does, when an organisation pursues explicitly antidemocratic goals and doesn't even shy away from illegal practices on the way. Otherwise the same argument could be made to "protect" any other illegal practice as well.
 
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:20 am

"Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization"

I'm not sure if the Coz would be offended or intrigued. You think Henks would consider NonAv.com subversive?

As far as scientology, they're just an irrelevant minority with a sometimes-loud voice.
Living the American Dream
 
graphic
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:26 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
There's a point... but a "cult" in the closer sense is an organisation which uses intense pressure on its victims to the point of brainwashing, trying to completely dominate the personality instead of more or less just trying to motivate people to show up in church.

I'm guessing you haven't been to a church in awhile, because for one thing, their main purpose is (well, at least should be) to inspire people to better themselves and their community through positive moral values. I think you'll find that this is mostly where a cult differs: They do not particularly inspire their followers to better the greater community with which they live, mainly they just inspire their followers to contribute only to the organization, and usually in the form of monetary contributions and/or "volunteer" labor.
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diamond
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:30 am

If churches getting involved in politics is subversive, then we have a LOT more than the CoS to worry about.

Religion has hijacked politics.

Politics has hijacked religion.

May they live unhappily ever after.
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:36 am

Quoting Diamond (Reply 11):
Religion has hijacked politics.

Politics has hijacked religion.

May they live unhappily ever after

The root of quite a few of the problems today.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
SBBRTech
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:10 pm

I read some of Scientology´s principles and it´s nothing more than another bunch of (not so) inventive religious-wannabe crap aimed to money collecting. Period.
Can´t believe they have any means to overthrown governments or practice massive brainwashing. Maybe they wish so, but come on. That Hubbard fellow obviously felt overwhelmed by the competition he was getting on the sci-fi market that he decided to try something else to fill his pocket with cash.
What better way to get rich fast than making up a whole "religion"? Ask the so-called evangelic folks here in Brazil. If they hear you from the top of their penthouses, maybe you get an answer.
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Doona
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:26 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
uses intense pressure on its victims to the point of brainwashing

Well, you go ahead and try to convince people that we are decendants from aliens who came to earth in DC-8s without any form of brainwashing. Go ahead, I dare you!  duck 

Cheers
Mats
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:28 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
I'm wondering if the Church of Scientology should be labled a subversive organization (particularly when it becomes involved with politics) as the Communist Party was considered in the past.

You have GOT to be kidding us!
If you are looking for a "Subversive Organization", look no further than these people;



http://nowscape.com/islam/islam.htm

IV.138: Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them nor will He guide them to the right way.

IV.89: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

IV.92: And it does not behoove a believer to kill a believer except by mistake, and whoever kills a believer by mistake, he should free a believing slave , and blood-money should be paid to his people unless they remit it as alms; but if he be from a tribe hostile to you and he is a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (suffices), and if he is from a tribe between whom and you there is a covenant, the blood-money should be paid to his people along with the freeing of a believing slave; but he who cannot find (a slave) should fast for two months successively: a penance from Allah, and Allah is Knowing, Wise.











XVI.8: It may be that your Lord will have mercy on you, and if you (again return to disobedience) We too will return (to punishment), and We have made hell a prison for the unbelievers.

II.161: Surely those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers, these it is on whom is the curse of Allah and the angels and men all;

IX. 5-6: Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them.

IV.76: Those who believe fight in the cause of God.

IV.74: Let those who fight in the cause of God who barter the life of this world for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God's path, whether he is killed or triumphs, We will give him a handsome reward.

VIII.39-42: Say to the Infidels: if they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's.
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PanHAM
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:30 pm



Quoting Graphic (Reply 6):

That's a little bit Fascist now, isn't it? Yank their tax exemption and declare them a cult all you want (because they are), but no government has the right to deny its citizens the right to practice their beliefs (in a benign way), however odd they may be.

Calling his opinion "fascist" is far over the edge, he is entitled to his opinion as much as CoS is entitleld to lable itself a "church".

CoS has not the slightst chance to become a "public corporation" in Germany, a status which would give them tax exemption and a couple of other rights, such as raising partial tax deductible contributions from their members. Jehova's witnesses have gained such a status a few years ago.

AFAIC, CoS is a commercial enterprise with a buisness plan that is to make their followers happy in exchange of a heavy and continuous contributions in form of money or by transferring property. That means, they are legally walking a tight rope, a problem all con games have.

The base for their business pölan is, that the dumb never die.



.
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Doona
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:41 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 15):
If you are looking for a "Subversive Organization", look no further than these people;

Ever read the old testament?

Islam didn't bring down the towers, a group of muslim extremists did. Do people hate Christianity because of Fred Phelps?

Cheers
Mats
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:57 pm

Several Christian evangelicals with large mega-church organizations and elaborate lifestyles for their leaders are under investigation by a Senate Committee to determine if they are in violation of the tax exception laws for faith organizations. It's too bad they didn't include the Church of Scientology in that investigation, but probably fear of massive protests and nasty reactions to politicians who went after them and the filing of massive lawsuits would end it very quickly.
The USA government has to be very careful as to regulating faith organizations and indeed we have Federal laws that sometimes overprotect faith organizations. Current Federal laws mean if a church wants to expand, they don't have to follow local planning or zoning laws, but it also protects faith organizations from prejudice like if someone wants to establish a mosque. Probably the CoS would use the religious freedom laws and the state and Federal courts to fight any attempts to go after them. They have been sued by 100's over the years and tended to win all of those suits.
There is also the fear of backlash if the Feds got too much on faith organizations, no matter how cult-like, disturbing, and even illegal in the beliefs and actions. Part of that comes from when the feds went after David Koresh in Waco in 1993 and what that led to. We also have to be extremely careful about going after the relatively few Islamic organizations that may be supporting or encouraging terror against America.
 
Superfly
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:09 pm

Doona:
Yes I have.

As horrific and disgusting as Fred Phelps and his thugs are, they aren't the reason we need to take off our shoes and go through intrusive searches when boarding an aircraft. Fred Phelps and his thugs can be taken out with just ONE tanker. The "peace loving" group you are defending will require........
nevermind.


LTBEWR:
Excellent post, minus your comments in regards to Church of Scientology> They are harmless and is a group of rich celebrities.


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Doona
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organiza

Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:20 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):
The "peace loving" group you are defending will require........

Are you actually saying you want to "take out" all muslims? Yeah, certainly better (and more peace loving) than the fundamentalists screaming "Death to America!"...

Edit: I want to clarify that I do not intend to defend islamist terrorists, but labelling every muslim as one is ignorant and counterproductive.

Cheers
Mats

[Edited 2007-11-13 05:23:06]
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
Klaus
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organiza

Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:23 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):
Excellent post, minus your comments in regards to Church of Scientology> They are harmless and is a group of rich celebrities.

No, they're not, and your post proves that their propaganda figureheads apparently work on some people.

Scientology is an aggressively authoritarian organisation which under the pretense of "clearing" their members extract personal and potentially harmful information from their applicants, which is collected in personal dossiers and is ruthlessly employed to keep them in line.

They employ fraud, blackmail, extortion and a wide range of intimidation practices not just sporadically but systematically.

They are squeezing large amounts of money out of their members and use tactics to break their spirit and make them totally obedient to the cult which are otherwise known from torture committed by totalitarian regimes.

And I'm afraid they don't provide private jets to their members either. Read the fine print again, please!
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:13 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 21):
propaganda figureheads apparently work on some people.

even on self-proclaimed liberals like Larry. I dont understand how he can take in that literature from the same people who advocate a Fundamentalist Christian USA. Larry, when I met you @ LAX, did I show any of that kind of behavior?
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:40 pm

Interesting debate...but rather pointless.

You want dangerous, subversive, anti-democratic groups? Try all those backwoods, white-supremecist, anti-federal government groups that are so heavily armed we'd have to send in the Military to vanquish them...and can expect casulties. These groups are planning for a massive race war right here on American soil. That's scary!

Compared to those groups, CoS is just an annoyance.

Democrats and Republicans are also much more dangerous subversives than the CoS.

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LAXspotter
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:52 pm



Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 23):
Try all those backwoods, white-supremecist, anti-federal government groups that are so heavily armed we'd have to send in the Military to vanquish them...and can expect casulties. These groups are planning for a massive race war right here on American soil

as much as it may sound sensationalized I agree, the key thing is that they're "armed", but care to name a couple of groups, it'll cause a stir

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 23):
Democrats and Republicans are also much more dangerous subversives than the CoS

 rotfl 
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
Superfly
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:56 pm



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 22):
Larry, when I met you @ LAX, did I show any of that kind of behavior?

No. Are your a fundamentalist?
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LAXspotter
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:05 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 25):
No. Are your a fundamentalist?

 rotfl  , well no, and most people arent, lets go to Indonesia or Malaysia. Hell did you go to Phuket, were you harassed there? I doubt it.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
Superfly
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:12 am



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 26):
lets go to Indonesia or Malaysia. Hell did you go to Phuket, were you harassed there? I doubt it.

Will I did get chased by a naked taxi driver.  Sad
I doubt he was a Muslim though. I have been to Turkey BTW and no I wasn't harassed there either. I don't bring up religion when I talk to others, especially when I am in another country.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 22):
even on self-proclaimed liberals like Larry. I dont understand how he can take in that literature from the same people who advocate a Fundamentalist Christian USA.

Me being a liberal is totally besides the point. Why should I be accepting of people that would rather kill me and have no respect for my freedom to not follow their strict religious belief system?

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 23):
You want dangerous, subversive, anti-democratic groups? Try all those backwoods, white-supremecist, anti-federal government groups that are so heavily armed we'd have to send in the Military to vanquish them...and can expect casulties. These groups are planning for a massive race war right here on American soil. That's scary!

Compared to those groups, CoS is just an annoyance.

 checkmark 
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LAXspotter
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:19 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 27):
point. Why should I be accepting of people that would rather kill me and have no respect for my freedom to not follow their strict religious belief system?

I dont want to kill you do I? There are 1.3 Billion Muslims, most of them are probably trying to earn a few bucks than contemplating on whose head to smite off next.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 27):
Will I did get chased by a naked taxi driver.

LOL ROTFL, what the hell was he shouting? in Bangkok?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 27):
I don't bring up religion when I talk to others, especially when I am in another country.

agreed
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
Klaus
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:22 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 27):
Will I did get chased by a naked taxi driver.

Serves you right. You should have dialled down your legendary charm before taking the ride...!  cool 
 
Superfly
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:44 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 29):
Serves you right. You should have dialled down your legendary charm before taking the ride...!

I told him MacIntosh computers suck and that's what set him off!

LOL!  rotfl 
Just kidding! Big grin

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 28):
LOL ROTFL, what the hell was he shouting? in Bangkok?

Yes this was in Bangkok and he was shouting; "You f--k me? I'll f--k you!"
This was an argument over cab fare. Read more about it in this trip report.
Superfly Returns To Thailand;TG Royal 1st. 747-300 (by Superfly Mar 19 2007 in Trip Reports)

Scroll down to the paragraph between the coffee cup photo and the two women at the mall photo.
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LTU932
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:29 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 21):
Scientology is an aggressively authoritarian organisation which under the pretense of "clearing" their members extract personal and potentially harmful information from their applicants, which is collected in personal dossiers and is ruthlessly employed to keep them in line.

They employ fraud, blackmail, extortion and a wide range of intimidation practices not just sporadically but systematically.

Remember the one time, when teachers were actively making advertisement for Scientology in several public schools in Germany? It happened a few years ago, and it was all over the news. The teachers were subsequently suspended and transfered to other schools.

My point is that Scientology members can be anywhere, recruiting anyone, including high school students like in this case. Shouldn't teachers be neutral when it comes to religion and politics in class anyway? And why weren't they fired?
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:17 am



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 24):
as much as it may sound sensationalized I agree, the key thing is that they're "armed", but care to name a couple of groups, it'll cause a stir

I'm not trying to sensationalize it. Truth be told that while these groups are essentially home grown terrorist organisations, they wouldn't stand a chance against our armed forces. It would be nice if more was done to keep track of them and suppress them.

One example was the Aryan Nation which ran a 20 acre compound in Idaho. Don't even think for a second that a Polish Catholic like me or an Indian like you could just waltz on in there without fear. Doesn't matter the color of our skins relative to each other...we'd be swiss cheese anyway in that scenario relative to those armed nuts.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 24):
Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 23):
Democrats and Republicans are also much more dangerous subversives than the CoS

ROTFL

You laugh, but these groups do in fact try to manipulate the system for their own game. Their war, our country. In a perfect world, Congressman, like the asshole representative Jeff Fortenberry who sat next me on a UAL flight from DCA and wouldn't turn off his damn blackberry for the whole flight despite being asked to do so*, would be held more accountable.

*I know it probably doesn't affect flight safety, but he's not above airline policy or FARs just because he's a congressman. It was real tough for someone like me to bite my toungue and not rudely tell him what I thought of him and his ilk on Capitol Hill. He and all other politicians deserves to ride in the overhead bin!

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LAXspotter
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:32 am



Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 32):
Don't even think for a second that a Polish Catholic like me or an Indian like you could just waltz on in there without fear. Doesn't matter the color of our skins relative to each other...we'd be swiss cheese anyway in that scenario relative to those armed nuts.

No kidding, but what can we do? Is there a limit to hate speech? As much as we would like to restrict groups like these, theyre protected until they start making threats and inciting violence.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
PPVRA
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organiza

Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:55 am

Banning an organization because they seek political power is fascism, even if they seek to change government style. Democracy isn't the holy final word, plenty of examples of that, and if people want to change the style of government or outright ban it they can. Hopefully peaceful means would prevail.

As for these people in the CoS, some rather creepy folks, so long they don't do anything illegal they should be allowed to exist. Seems like there's some evidence against them, by reading this thread, so who knows. . .
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:58 am



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 34):
As for these people in the CoS, some rather creepy folks, so long they don't do anything illegal they should be allowed to exist. Seems like there's some evidence against them, by reading this thread, so who knows. . .

real democracy is letting everyone speak, no matter how disgusting, contorted or "wierd" their views, you can deny that freedom to splinter groups no matter what "threat" they pose.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
Klaus
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:04 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 34):
Banning an organization because they seek political power is fascism, even if they seek to change government style.

The flaw in your reasoning becomes obvious when you're looking at the Weimar Republic which didn't defend itself against the nazis. According to you, if they had defended themselves against the nazis, they would have been fascists...  crazy 
 
PanHAM
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:28 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 34):
plenty of examples of that, and if people want to change the style of government or outright ban it they can. Hopefully peaceful means would prevail.

if I remember the words of the Magna Charta correctly, a free man does not accept the rule of the Monarch and not the rule of the mob.

The latter applies in this case.
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PPVRA
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organiza

Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:16 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 36):

The flaw in your reasoning becomes obvious when you're looking at the Weimar Republic which didn't defend itself against the nazis. According to you, if they had defended themselves against the nazis, they would have been fascists... crazy

I don't see what's not fascist about "banning" a revolution. It's the type of thing Hitler and dictators do, not a democracy.

They can defend themselves, but not by taking power away from the people by decree.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 37):
if I remember the words of the Magna Charta correctly, a free man does not accept the rule of the Monarch and not the rule of the mob.

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And what is rule of the mob?

Ans: pure democracy. A government that is run by the majority at the detriment of a minority.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Klaus
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:31 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 38):
I don't see what's not fascist about "banning" a revolution. It's the type of thing Hitler and dictators do, not a democracy.

A revolution is and must be always banned - it's the most basic element of any order, including any democratic one. A revolution is the violent overthrow of the existing order.

And any democracy that wants to survive needs to enforce democratic rules or it will be destroyed by any sufficiently determined and violent attacker, as the Weimar Republic has shown.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 38):
They can defend themselves, but not by taking power away from the people by decree.

Every democracy "takes power away from the people by decree". You are not allowed to kill, steal or commit other crimes against other citizens. And you have to equally abide by democratic rules when you want to change the way your government works. Such rules are the foundation of every working democracy.

Banning illegal and unconstitutional acts is just a conditio sine qua non.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:49 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 39):
A revolution is and must be always banned - it's the most basic element of any order, including any democratic one. A revolution is the violent overthrow of the existing order.

It doesn't have to be violent.

If that existing order becomes detrimental and/or illegitimate the governed have every right to get rid of it.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 39):
And any democracy that wants to survive needs to enforce democratic rules or it will be destroyed by any sufficiently determined and violent attacker, as the Weimar Republic has shown.

It should defend itself, but a legitimate government making the claim that significant changes are not allowed is pretty Hitler-ish.

I don't mean that the CoS has the right to overthrow any government through violent means, but they have the right to lead a coalition to change it.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 39):
Every democracy "takes power away from the people by decree". You are not allowed to kill, steal or commit other crimes against other citizens.

And neither is the government.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 39):
And you have to equally abide by democratic rules when you want to change the way your government works. Such rules are the foundation of every working democracy.

Yeah but it won't work that way when you have a democratically elected Chavez or Hitler.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 39):

Banning illegal and unconstitutional acts is just a conditio sine qua non.

I call it "redundant". If it's already unconstitutional, it's already not allowed.


Government only has the right to exist if the people allow it to exist, if they change their minds so be it.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Blackbird
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:55 pm

To Klaus

Quote:
They're officially considered to be a for-profit enterprise and not a religious community in Germany and are under surveillance by the constitution protection service since they clearly have the goal of overthrowing the democratic order. There are calls for an outright ban, but they've managed to evade that fate so far.

That's what most people don't realize. They want to ultimately take over the world! There are all sorts of stories about how they got in trouble in virtually every country they'v lived in.

They even broke into FBI offices or something like that -- it was one of the FBI's biggest breaches ever. And with that they were able to destroy incriminating evidence stored on themselves and mis-direct FBI investigations. It was outrageous.

Quote:
Yanking their tax exemption in the USA as well would be a good first step. It would also confirm their insane paranoia, but that's their problem.

Yeah... I'd have to agree. And in case anyone's wondering, I'd like to see Fred Phelps get his tax-exempt status pulled as well.

Quote:
They're a dangerous anti-democratic cult which operates with brainwashing and other aggressive manipulations of their victims. And from leaked internal information (and their spaced-out public scriptures) they do indeed seem to use subversive manipulations to gain material and political power.

Yeah, which is why I think they should be treated as a subversive organization. Plus you'd have to be brainwashed to believe that aliens took 13 trillion creatures of various species and flew them over in DC-8 look alikes, stacked them around volcanoes then vaporized them with H-bombs, then trapped their souls in energy ribbons and put them into boxes and brain-washed them into believing a false reality, where they then wandered the earth and found themselves in human bodies -- which by the way evolved from clams -- and that explains why we have all our problems  Wow!

And while I'm at it, I'll point out other logical flaws: But if the result of all our problems are do to that... what caused Xenu to do all that crap to his own people... wouldn't another evil galactic warloard do that to his ancestors?

And interestingly as much as Scientologists hate drug-use, L-Ron Hubbard died with psychiatric meds in his system (1986), AND during the time he wrote this Xenu crap (1968 I think) he was [i](according to his own written statements)[i] was high on various pills and drinking rum with it.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:55 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 38):

And what is rule of the mob?

I can give you a good example. My home country between 1933 and 1945. The mob came to power in a democratic election, took over power by cutting out all democartic mechanism, killed or detained political opponents and started to eliminate a whole race/religious group.

By my definition democracy is power granted by the people on a limited time. The US have a good system, President once in your life for 2 terms Period.
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PPVRA
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:27 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 42):

Term limits don't stop abuses and don't prevent rule of the mob. It might prevent it from continuing after a certain number of years, but that is unlikely IMO, and plenty of damage can be done within two terms, or even one term.

IMO, a better example of rule of the mob would be slavery in the U.S.. Slaves were people but were not recognized because the majority refused to. It was the enslavement of a minority by the majority, under a democratic system.

Reason I say this is because what Hitler did amounted to a coup, thus "rule of the mob" in a democratic sense did not apply anymore (it wasn't a democracy anymore).

Rule of the Mob under a democratic government is Tyranny of the Majority, and here's a link about it on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 42):
The US have a good system, President once in your life for 2 terms Period.

But that was only implemented after WWII, before it was more or less a thing people abided by, but not illegal. FDR of course served 4 terms.

It's important to differentiate freedom and democracy. As "rule of the mob" implies, you can have democracy, but not be free.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:33 pm



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 33):
No kidding, but what can we do? Is there a limit to hate speech? As much as we would like to restrict groups like these, theyre protected until they start making threats and inciting violence.

Well for one, groups that arm themselves as heavily as that do earn the attention of the FBI and ATF which usually tracks their movements with reasonable suspicion. Having insiders and informants help as well to learn about potential 'plots' before they are executed. You don't have to yank their freedom of speech. They can have it. They do not have freedom to plot overthrows of government or mass killings. That's where you send in the SWAT team.

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JGPH1A
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:38 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 39):
Banning illegal and unconstitutional acts is just a conditio sine qua non.

For given values of "illegal" and "unconstitutional". There has to be some moral aspect here too - are those things declared "illegal" and "unconstitutional" also in some basic way immoral in that they actively harm or deprive others of rights ?
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fumanchewd
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:00 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
There's a point... but a "cult" in the closer sense is an organisation which uses intense pressure on its victims to the point of brainwashing, trying to completely dominate the personality instead of more or less just trying to motivate people to show up in church.

We've gone over this before.

Every religion tells their followers what to believe. Many of their followers vote accordingly. Most Americans that I know think these guys are harmless but annoying. I wonder what element of the same church has Germans quaking in their lederhosen?  Wink
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
PPVRA
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organization

Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:10 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 43):

Rule of the Mob under a democratic government is Tyranny of the Majority, and here's a link about it on wikipedia:

I'd like to note that they are the same thing, interchangeable terms. Doesn't sound like it from what I wrote.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PanHAM
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organiza

Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:28 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 43):

Term limits don't stop abuses and don't prevent rule of the mob. It might prevent it from continuing after a certain number of years, but that is unlikely IMO, and plenty of damage can be done within two terms, or even one term

In was talking about a functioning democracy, meaning, the division of powers are working fact. Means, the government is controlled by the parliament and both are controlled by a judiciary with a supreme court and tha basis of all of this is the constitution. De fakto, there is a fourth power, the free press/media.

Unfortunately, this superior system works only in a minority of all countries on this planet. .

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 43):
But that was only implemented after WWII, before it was more or less a thing people abided by, but not illegal. FDR of course served 4 terms.

No, FDR was the only exception in the history of the USofA and he served 3 terms, because of WWII.


The Wikipedia article does not reflect the reality in western democracies. Minority rights are guaranteed by law, in some countries by the constitution. A "tyranny of the majority" does not exist under the Rule of the Law.

The mob rules when the divison of powers are cancelled and the constitution is no longer observed, all Government functions are brought under the control of a single party and the Rule of the Law is no longer observed. That was the case in Germany between 1933 and 1945.and in the eastern part of Germany until 1989.
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PPVRA
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RE: Should The CoS Be Labled A Subversive Organiza

Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:19 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 48):
In was talking about a functioning democracy, meaning, the division of powers are working fact. Means, the government is controlled by the parliament and both are controlled by a judiciary with a supreme court and tha basis of all of this is the constitution.

Separation of Powers is not democratic, though. That's why we are all republics and not democracies (Federal Republic of Brazil/Germany/the USA). We have representative governments who seek (at least on paper) to represent everyone equally, not just 51% of the population.

In fact, the only thing democratic (that I can think of anyways) about us is the election process, and even so many countries have barriers. The electoral college, parliamentary systems, are all means of trying to avert the issue of "tyranny of the majority" associated with direct Democracies.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 48):

Unfortunately, this superior system works only in a minority of all countries on this planet. .

Agreed, it's unfortunate.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 48):
No, FDR was the only exception in the history of the USofA and he served 3 terms, because of WWII.

He did get elected for 4, though. 1933-1945, when he died still early on his 4th term.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 48):
The Wikipedia article does not reflect the reality in western democracies. Minority rights are guaranteed by law, in some countries by the constitution. A "tyranny of the majority" does not exist under the Rule of the Law.

Oh it does. In everything from free speech to property rights (Eminent Domain is one) to taxes to drugs to who knows what else.

On the other hand the opposite also happens when lobbyists buy out our representatives. . .

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 48):
The mob rules when the divison of powers are cancelled and the constitution is no longer observed, all Government functions are brought under the control of a single party and the Rule of the Law is no longer observed.

"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine."
-Thomas Jefferson

I used this quote to clarify something: The "mob" is the majority, not necessarily a single political party that comprises, say, 10% of the population, or just a handful of "mobsters". What happened in Germany was not rule of the mob, it was a coup, a complete shift of government. I understand where you are coming from by calling the NAZI party a "mob" but that is not what is meant by it. Rule of the mob, as the quote above indicates, is political power in the hands of a majority of the population through a democratic process who imposes themselves and/or their views on a minority (51% versus 49%).
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat

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