columba
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Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:52 am

Just in: German Vice chancellor and Secretary of Labor will resign because of "family" reasons.
http://www.spiegel.de/

I hope his successor will not be Beck, I can not stand this guy........
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DAL767400ER
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:01 am

Okay, granted, Münte's wife is suffering from cancer and he no doubt wants to support here, but still, I don't buy the "family" excuse. If family were the reason, Münte would have resigned quite a while ago, not at a time when his fellow SPD comrade Beck is on an ego-driven power trip.
 
pelican
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:04 am



Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
I hope his successor will not be Beck, I can not stand this guy........

Unfortunately this is the most logical step.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 1):

Indeed. Maybe it's both.


I wonder whether the coaltion will survive without Münte. I hope there won't be early elections or a change of coaltion.

pelican
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:08 am



Quoting Pelican (Reply 2):
I hope there won't be early elections or a change of coaltion.

Same here. With the way things are going, we would likely be stuck with a coalition of incompetents (SPD), treehuggers longing for Tempo 130 (Greens) and some former Stasi workers that promise heaven yet have no f'n clue on how to even remotely finance it (SED, I mean PDS, I mean, Die Linke(n Spinner)).
 
columba
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:16 am

According to Spiegel Beck is said to be his successor. Honestly the worst choice in my opinion but sadly the SPD has no other alternative. If I try to think of something positive I would say better Beck than Wowi..........
Although I am too young to remember but I wish the SPD had people like Helmut Schmidt - the only time I would have considered to even vote SPD.
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:39 am



Quoting Columba (Reply 4):
people like Helmut Schmidt

I personally much preferred Willy Brandt, whenever Helmut Schmidt was far more efficient. Unforgettable, whenever rather "conflict-hungry" was Herbert Wehner of course.
 
columba
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:34 am

Steinmeier and Scholz are rumored to take over the offices of Muente:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,517032,00.html
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PanHAM
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:45 am

Well, it will be Scholz. I once saw this guy on the street in Hamburg when he ran for mayor. How to phrase it, OK, he has about as much charisma as a used condom.

I never had any simpathy for the SPD , Brandt became wise and an elder statesman in his final years, highly respectable, same as Helmut Schmidt. That goes without saying.

Muentefehring was the last defender of wisdom in the present row of head honchos of the SPD. Pity that he pulled the emergency handle and ejected from his position. Can't blame him, he is 67, financially settled and why should he still do this to himself? More time for his wife, especially since she seems to be very ill.

Now, Scholz becoms the ventroloquist puppet of many masters. He must be careful, to tune into the right voice. That will be the intellectually most challenging part of his new job.

Heavens, why can't we get a majority vote system like the British have?
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Klaus
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:00 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):
Heavens, why can't we get a majority vote system like the British have?

Giving us the only possible way a conservative majority could rule at this point, despite a stable and significant left-side majority?

That would be a travesty of democracy. Getting a CDU chancellor when the majority of the voters clearly wanted the opposite is bizarre enough (although she's doing a decent job overall).

And the only reason even that happened was that the SPD chose not to enter a coalition with Die Linke. In a majority system the smaller parties would mostly deflate and the voters would have to switch to the larger ones - only making the SPD stronger than the CDU again. Such a system would be democratically dubious, but the CDU/CSU wouldn't be any better off than they are now.

I wouldn't let the milk maids do the calculations if I were you...!  mischievous 
 
PanHAM
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:01 pm

To be precise, Steinmeier is in line for Vice Chancellor and Scholz as Minister for Employment.

They need two guys to replace the last capable person they had.
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PanHAM
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:07 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 8):
Giving us the only possible way a conservative majority could rule at this point, despite a stable and significant left-side major

You are dreaming., But I have the same nightmare about a SPD majority rule. Only, your nightmare ois more realistic. No chance the SPD will pass the CDU in total votes for decades to come-.

But if the SPD has the opportiunity to form a coalition against the CDU with the Communists, they will take it,no matter what they say before an election. That would be a travetry indeed, the old East German Communist Party taking over the rest of the country, Nightmare is not a word for such a looming desaster, .

That is, why I rather take the remote risk of a SPD majority. After all, the CDU today is nothing more than a black painted SPD




.
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Klaus
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:37 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
You are dreaming.

No. Just looking at the numbers.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
No chance the SPD will pass the CDU in total votes for decades to come-.

We'll see about that. But in a majority system you could indeed expect that most of the former Green and Linke voters would (have to) switch to the SPD to not have their voices discarded.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
But if the SPD has the opportiunity to form a coalition against the CDU with the Communists, they will take it,no matter what they say before an election.

Then why didn't they do that right after the last election? They had exactly that choice and yet opted for the grand coalition instead. Your reality filter seems to be a bit out of whack...

Bundestagswahl 2005 | wahl.tagesschau.de

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
That is, why I rather take the remote risk of a SPD majority. After all, the CDU today is nothing more than a black painted SPD

So you're voting NPD, or what?  eyebrow 
 
zak
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:43 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
That is, why I rather take the remote risk of a SPD majority. After all, the CDU today is nothing more than a black painted SPD

so vote green!
10=2
 
PanHAM
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:52 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):

No. Just looking at the numbers.

which are in the margin of error. Don't count on your numbers.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):

We'll see about that. But in a majority system you could indeed expect that most of the former Green and Linke voters would (have to) switch to the SPD to not have their voices discarded.

The communists would never vote for the SPD and most of the Greens neither. Pretty safe majority for the CDIU.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
hen why didn't they do that right after the last election?

Mistakes happen and the last elections are yesterday's wine. I alway look forward, never back.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
So you're voting NPD, or what?

I would never vote for a Socialist party, regardless if they are red or brown. Look at my contributions here, I am pro American, pro Israel, I am what is defamed by leftists as "capitalist", in short,I am a liberal conservative.

Quoting Zak (Reply 12):
so vote green!

see above, Yellow.
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Klaus
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:10 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
which are in the margin of error. Don't count on your numbers.

You're funny.

SPD+Greens+Linke = 51% of the votes,327 seats
CDU/CSU+FDP = 45% of the votes, 287 seats

The technical term for that is comfortable majority.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
The communists would never vote for the SPD and most of the Greens neither.

Rubbish. "The communists" are a tiny minority, even within the Linkspartei. And in a majority system you'll find that most green voters would switch to the SPD, but fortunately we won't see that happen.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
Pretty safe majority for the CDIU.

One can dream, sure...! Big grin

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
Mistakes happen and the last elections are yesterday's wine.

Rubbish. If any of what you're saying was even remotely true, the SPD wouldn't have sacrificed the chancellorship and gone with the CDU instead.

I know that your claim is the standard bogeyman propaganda from the right, but it's pretty unconvincing.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
I alway look forward, never back.

Which means you'll never gain experience, but your statements more or less prove that anyway.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
I would never vote for a Socialist party, regardless if they are red or brown. Look at my contributions here, I am pro American, pro Israel,

And of course you're got a monopoly on all that. Dang!  innocent 

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
I am what is defamed by leftists as "capitalist", in short,I am a liberal conservative.

Ah, the politically empty egoist's party for dentists, lawyers and real estate agents. Right. Almost forgot about Grinse-Guido's CDU appendix. Big grin
 
columba
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:31 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
We'll see about that. But in a majority system you could indeed expect that most of the former Green and Linke voters would (have to) switch to the SPD to not have their voices discarded.

Well people vote for Ralph Nader, too  Smile
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PanHAM
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:34 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 14):
You're funny.

what are you then? Your figures are wishful thinking, that's all.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 14):
Rubbish. "The communists" are a tiny minority, even within the Linkspart

The "Linkspartei" are the communists. That is my opinion, to which I am entitled as long as this country is free. I might have problems once the Commujnists gain power again withe the helpü of the greens and the SPD dummies.

BTW young man - "rubbish" is probably what your write, but you are entitled to write rubbish. You are not entitled to defame my opinion as rubbish



Quoting Klaus (Reply 14):
One can dream, sure...!

Go on dreaming. Assuming your blueprint, a lot of conservative greens and conservatoive SPD members would rather vote for CDU in a majority scenaria than taking the chance of communist rule. You have totally ignored that in your dreams.





Quoting Klaus (Reply 14):

Which means you'll never gain experience, but your statements more or less prove that anywa

The one does not rule out the other, you should be old enough to know that. It shows again that idelogy is the enmemy of wisdom.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 14):

And of course you're got a monopoly on all that. Dang

of course not, you are entitlked on your opinion. Only, the conclusion that the NPD is right from the CDU is dead wroing. Ask Mr., Mahler,who had no problems to cross the thin border line between extremists parties and is now with the NPD. A small step for him, on the far left side of the spectrum. The NPD is a extreme left party, anto American, Anti Israel, Anto Globalization, Anti Capitalist, you name it. All phrases which are the standard repetoire of other extreme left parties. Even the appearance of the strom troops is very similar.

Nothing I would ever stand for, I hate them as much as I hate the communists. They are the same breed.

.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 14):

Ah, the politically empty egoist's party for dentists, lawyers and real estate agent

..........and you would put them into detention camps, once your ideology takes power in Germany.

We had this all before and people like you don't even realize that you are the ones who are repeating history.
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jush
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:35 pm



Quoting Columba (Thread starter):



Quoting Columba (Thread starter):

I hope his successor will not be Beck, I can not stand this guy........

 checkmark  dude, how right you are. Beck is so unbearable.

Regds
jush
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NoUFO
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:02 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 14):
Ah, the politically empty egoist's party for dentists, lawyers and real estate agents.

You know, the Greens could be sneered at as another party for top earners, just like the FDP. Where I live, roughly 70% of the residents graduated from a university, one out of four who buy a condo for EUR 3,000+ per square meter, doesn't even need to borrow on mortgage. We have Europe's largest organic-food supermarket plus at least two more and two farmer's markets that focus on organic food. This borough "rents" policemen and nurses from other districts, because affordable flats are rare. At the same time, locals join the church and apply their kids for yoga, violin and cello lessons (rather than football) - often immediately after they were born, because demand is high. And in this Latte-Macchiato / Bionade - Ghetto for the wealthy, the Greens/Alliance 90 take more than one out of three votes.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 3):
treehuggers longing for Tempo 130

Frankly a speed limit ... so what? Care to trade problems?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 16):
I might have problems once the Commujnists gain power again withe the helpü of the greens and the SPD dummies.

Not sure if supporters of the Greens/Alliance 90 are so fond of the socialists. Alliance 90 was the civil-rights movement opposing the SED which ultimately brought down the wall. Do you have an idea how much the Greens/Alliance 90 battle against the socialists to honor those involved in the resistance against the SED regime here in Berlin?
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PanHAM
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:35 pm



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 18):
opposing the SED which ultimately brought down the wall. Do you have an idea how much the Greens/Alliance 90 battle against the socialists to honor those involved in the resistance against the SED regime here in Berlin?

I don't and don't want to have too much insight in the Green Party. I know that they managed to kick out most of the B90 civil rights activists, hence they have little to say in the Green party any more. My "absolute and top favorite darling of all", Claudia Fatima Roth, is one of these radical socialists who do not allow any other opinion except their own. She will have no worries teaming up witht the communists. That castrate joint party leader was a former member of a West German communist party, so he has no objections either.

These two (especiallyClaudia darling) call the shots and if it takes a hysterical outbreak.

The peopl,e who started the resistance against the SED regime are best taken care of in the CDU.
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Klaus
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:53 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 16):
what are you then? Your figures are wishful thinking, that's all.

"My figures" are the official election result as publicized by the state electoral commission.

If that is "wishful thinking" to you, you're pretty far out in lala land.  hypnotized 

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 16):
The "Linkspartei" are the communists. That is my opinion, to which I am entitled as long as this country is free.

Oh, you're so courageous...!  Yeah sure

In actual fact, the Linkspartei is a mishmash of quite a number of things, most of them actually quite conservative ex-GDR fossils, fishing for the protest votes of those who see themselves as socially underprivileged. The communist platform is minority even among them. Most of their words and actions are populist much more than socialist, let along communist.

But for a hardened ideologist such as yourself that is apparently 1:1 identical to all of them to the last one being fanatical communists hell-bent on killing everybody else.  crazy 

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 16):
BTW young man - "rubbish" is probably what your write, but you are entitled to write rubbish. You are not entitled to defame my opinion as rubbish

You can't even survive being called out with unfounded claims without whining about being "defamed"? Grow up!

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 16):
Go on dreaming.

It was your dream that the CDU would easily win the elections... Big grin

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 16):
Assuming your blueprint, a lot of conservative greens and conservatoive SPD members would rather vote for CDU in a majority scenaria than taking the chance of communist rule. You have totally ignored that in your dreams.

You were dreaming. And "communist rule" would most certainly not be an option in a majority election between CDU/CSU and SPD.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 16):
The NPD is a extreme left party,

Rubbish. Strong emphasis on nationalism and racism are by definition features of the extreme right and are both obviously present in the NPD.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 16):


Quoting Klaus,reply=14:
Ah, the politically empty egoist's party for dentists, lawyers and real estate agent

..........and you would put them into detention camps, once your ideology takes power in Germany.

We had this all before and people like you don't even realize that you are the ones who are repeating history.

Are you mad? I demand you to provide even the slightest evidence (quotes!) for your accusation that I would ever consider or even allow anything like that to happen!

Since you are unable to provide any such evidence, I demand a retraction and apology!

You're exposing yourself to an outright embarrassing degree here.  yuck 
 
Klaus
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:22 pm



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 18):
You know, the Greens could be sneered at as another party for top earners, just like the FDP.

There is no problem with earning a lot of money - as long as it's seen as an opportunity and obligation to contribute to the common good instead of just prioritizing oneself above everything else.

And especially since they ditched the last vestiges of the previously existing civil rights party when they jumped ship from Schmidt to Kohl, the FDP has progressively degraded to a lobby party which has exactly one agenda: Cutting down taxes for the wealthy, and to hell with everybody else.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:28 pm



Quoting Zak (Reply 12):
so vote green!

Voting green is the same as voting for the Linkspartei: High Treason.

All the greens have done during their 7 years as SPD coalition partners was nothing except for getting us out of nuclear power. Getting out of nuclear power at this stage is IMO an error. Germany has one of the safest nuclear power facilities in the world, and apart from isolated incidents, like Krümmel, there is no need for us to stop using such a reliable source of energy, and even go back to fossil fuel powerplants like carbon powerplants, that are much more harmful for the environment than a properly built and fully secure nuclear powerplant. Yes, it's dangerous, but if it was for the Greens, one of those reactors could cause a Super-GAU at any time, and that's simply not true. Not to mention, it was the Greens who wanted us to pay minimum 5 Mark or 5 Euros per litre petrol. They wanted to jack up prices before oil even cost almost $100 a barrel. All those goddamn treehuggers did was nothing productive. NO MORE ROT-GRÜN!

As for Steinmeier becoming Vice Chancellor, IMO it was not unexpected. Usually it is the Minister of Foreign Affairs who gets the position of Vice Chancellor, though with Münte, an exception was made.
 
Klaus
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:42 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 22):
Voting green is the same as voting for the Linkspartei: High Treason.

The fanatics are out in full force, apparently. You should definitely look up the current and historical implications of that bizarre and highly undemocratic statement.  yuck 

Your own lack of information can't be the only explanation here.
 
NoUFO
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:44 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 22):
All the greens have done during their 7 years as SPD coalition partners was nothing except for getting us out of nuclear power.

Maybe you should read a newspaper from time to time.
And they didn't get us "out of nuclear power".

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 22):
... and fully secure nuclear powerplant. Yes, it's dangerous, ...

When do you think are you going to make up your mind?
Do you consider the term "Restrisiko" an euphemism or not?
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NoUFO
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:51 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
I don't and don't want to have too much insight in the Green Party.

Yeah, ignorance is a bliss.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
I know that they managed to kick out most of the B90 civil rights activists

I know of 2 (two) members who changed the party (weren't kicked out) and who are now members of the CDU. But yes, I haven't heard much of them since then.
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pelican
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:54 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 14):

SPD+Greens+Linke = 51% of the votes,327 seats
CDU/CSU+FDP = 45% of the votes, 287 seats

The technical term for that is comfortable majority.

What you forget is that with the current voting system every voter has 2 votes while in a real majority vote system everybody had just one vote, hence the results would look quite different without tactical voting. In additon the volatile East German vote is the base of the theoretical left majority today. And because it is so volatile it's far from being a safe bet for the social democrats. So I wouldn't rely to much on those figures.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 20):
In actual fact, the Linkspartei is a mishmash of quite a number of things, most of them actually quite conservative ex-GDR fossils, fishing for the protest votes of those who see themselves as socially underprivileged. The communist platform is minority even among them. Most of their words and actions are populist much more than socialist, let along communist.

But who are those ex-GDR fossils? They were communists which became turncoats to survive after unification. So it's not far fetched to call them communists.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 21):
There is no problem with earning a lot of money - as long as it's seen as an opportunity and obligation to contribute to the common good instead of just prioritizing oneself above everything else.

Indeed. But your assumption on the intention of those green voters is rather noble (to put it mildly).

Quoting Klaus (Reply 21):
And especially since they ditched the last vestiges of the previously existing civil rights party when they jumped ship from Schmidt to Kohl, the FDP has progressively degraded to a lobby party which has exactly one agenda: Cutting down taxes for the wealthy, and to hell with everybody else.

Still angry because the FDP turned away from the social-liberal coalition?
I'm far from being rich but I wouldn't mind cutting taxes to increase my slim income - I prefer to work for my income instead of recieving subsidies.




BTW: I don't understand Beck. Is he such a coward?

pelican
 
NoUFO
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:03 pm



Quoting Pelican (Reply 26):
BTW: I don't understand Beck. Is he such a coward?

Beck is further on the left than Steinmeier and Scholz. Maybe he thinks/knows that if he sticks to his ideals, while being a member of the federal government, that he could pose a threat to the grand coalition?
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Klaus
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:11 pm



Quoting Pelican (Reply 26):
And because it is so volatile it's far from being a safe bet for the social democrats. So I wouldn't rely to much on those figures.

I don't - it was merely about the results of the last election.

But even with the shifting numbers the operative result probably wouldn't differ all that much even now. A completely different electoral system (and a majority system would be a big step backwards) would of course change many things.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 26):
But who are those ex-GDR fossils? They were communists which became turncoats to survive after unification. So it's not far fetched to call them communists.

The ex-SED-functionaries are still very different from the communist platform of Sarah Wagenknecht and her ilk.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 26):
Indeed. But your assumption on the intention of those green voters is rather noble (to put it mildly).

I made no absolute assumption - but the tendency is clearly there.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 26):
Still angry because the FDP turned away from the social-liberal coalition?

Yep. And we're still paying dearly for the 16 years of stagnation that followed.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 26):
I'm far from being rich but I wouldn't mind cutting taxes to increase my slim income - I prefer to work for my income instead of recieving subsidies.

So do I. An effective state needs proper funding, but there are of course opportunities to increase its efficiency. As the saying goes: Only the rich can afford a poor and weak state.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:18 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 23):
You should definitely look up the current and historical implications of that bizarre and highly undemocratic statement.

That's an opinion. I'm not someone who preaches anti-democratic practices. Why do I consider the Greens and the Linkspartei traitors you wonder? Simple: because the Greens are just treehuggers with no real agenda that will help get our country back on track, all they have is a political agenda for themselves and themselves only; and the Linkspartei is nothing but a group of disgruntled social democrats (read: Lafontaine) and former communists from the SED era (e.g. Gysi). And let's face it, the only reason why people even voted for the Linkspartei is because of people in the East who still live in their dreamworld built of political Ostalgie (read: people who want to go back to the "good ol' days" of Honecker, SED rule and DDR).

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 24):
And they didn't get us "out of nuclear power".

They did start the process, and there's second thought about it from the current government.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 24):
Do you consider the term "Restrisiko" an euphemism or not?

As I said, it is dangerous, but in the end, we don't have reactors that could become the next Chernobyl, do we? Or do you prefer that we exhaust what we have left of our fossil fuel reserves, just to get out of nuclear power? We should try to make nuclear power safer instead of just discarting it.

I currently live in a country that fully depends on hydroelectric plants and electricity imports from Nicaragua and Panama. These plants have suffered massive failures around March-April, which lead to a country wide electricity rationing due to exhausted water reserves in the dams. These dams are highly prone to sabotage, as shown by the electricity rationing, and nothing was done until those accusations came to light, and the President declared the rationings over. Those power rationings reaffirmed my opinion that nuclear power is currently the only reliable power source we have, even with whatever Restrisiko there is. They just need to be safer, or do you think that German operators of nuclear powerplants haven't learned from Chernobyl, which is BTW a graphite powerplant (and such nuclear powerplants are banned for security reasons in Germany)?
 
Klaus
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:34 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 29):
That's an opinion.

Which everyone shares who has half an idea of what treason actually means and what it meant in our history.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 29):
I'm not someone who preaches anti-democratic practices.

Calling voters of a democratic party traitors is exactly that: Anti-democratic. You're calling for these voters to be arrested, which is the automatic consequence of treason.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 29):
Why do I consider the Greens and the Linkspartei traitors you wonder? Simple: because the Greens are just treehuggers with no real agenda that will help get our country back on track, all they have is a political agenda for themselves and themselves only;

Which makes clear that you have no idea what treason even means. Or democratic rules. Or civil rights.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 29):
As I said, it is dangerous, but in the end, we don't have reactors that could become the next Chernobyl, do we?

Yes, we do. Dangerous events have not been "isolated", they have been pervasive all through the lifetime of the nuclear industry in Germany. We have been lucky so far (well, if you discount some cancer "hot spots" in the vicinity of certain reactors), but as one of the most densely populated countries in Europe a major accident would have substantially larger consequences for our country than even Chernobyl did.

Nuclear energy is highly inefficient energetically, fiscally and fraught with substantial risks on many levels. Some people once thought that it was a convenient catch-all solution, but that promise has never come true. We actually have to find working solutions and stop chasing that old illusion.
 
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 29):
That's an opinion.

Saying "I don't believe the Greens have the right answers" is an opinion. Saying "voting for the Greens (after all, and undoubtedly a democratic party) is treason" is not an opinion but radical, intolerant talk.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 29):
As I said, it is dangerous, but in the end, we don't have reactors that could become the next Chernobyl, do we?

We have reactors that are able to fail and pollute large parts of Germany for the next hundreds of years to come. In a country as densely populated as Germany that would result in millions of people being forced out of their homes and a ruined economy, not to mention those who will suffer and eventually die. This - granted: very small - risk of turning large parts of this country into nuclear wasteland is called "Restrisiko". The "exit strategy" spans over decades. One can argue if the time is long enough, but spending thoughts on how to end our dependency on both - fossil fuels and nuclear fission energy - is sensible.

[Edited 2007-11-13 15:48:40]
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:48 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 30):
Which everyone shares who has half an idea of what treason actually means and what it meant in our history.

I am very well aware of our history.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 30):
Calling voters of a democratic party traitors is exactly that: Anti-democratic. You're calling for these voters to be arrested, which is the automatic consequence of treason.

OK, I admit, I exagerated with using the terms "treason" and "high treason", but my exageration is more derived from my, and I fully admit it, hate towards two parties: die Grünen und die Linkspartei. Why do I hate them: see my previous post from the answer. Sometimes I can be irrational when I hate someone or something, but there are also times where my hate is justified. And make no mistake: I am NOT an anti-democrat. I'm not calling on them to be arrested and send off to the Gulag or something similar. If I came out as an anti-democrat, I apologise. People who know me here and in real life know that I'm quite the opposite of an anti-democrat. I'm a person who genuinely believes in democracy and civil liberties.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 30):
Nuclear energy is highly inefficient energetically, fiscally and fraught with substantial risks on many levels. Some people once thought that it was a convenient catch-all solution, but that promise has never come true. We actually have to find working solutions and stop chasing that old illusion.

You still haven't answered my question: would you still have us exhaust more of our fossil fuel reserves instead? And to add: alternative power sources like solar or wind power are still in their infant stages and may not yield enough to even match the output of an old coal plant.
 
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:08 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 32):
I am very well aware of our history.

Obviously not - otherwise you'd been aware how exactly your talk of "treason" matched the way the nazis persecuted the democratic parties and their voters.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 32):
OK, I admit, I exagerated with using the terms "treason" and "high treason", but my exageration is more derived from my, and I fully admit it, hate towards two parties: die Grünen und die Linkspartei. Why do I hate them: see my previous post from the answer.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 32):
And make no mistake: I am NOT an anti-democrat.

If you hate democratic parties and their voters, you are. Simple as that.

Hatred has absolutely no place in a democracy. I loathe the NPD and are fully for a restart of the banning proceedings which had been aborted for formal reasons before. I deeply mistrust the Linkspartei and I'm in political opposition to many of the positions of the CDU/CSU/FDP as well as to some of the SPD and the Greens.

But I hate none of them with the possible exception of the NPD which is not a democratic party but actively works to overthrow the democratic order and promotes chauvinism and racism.

None of the major parties even remotely qualifies for a similar reaction.

The whole point of a democracy is the open discourse about problems the society faces and proposals for their solution. At the moment when hatred enters the scene, open political discourse is no longer possible, and you descend into the abyss which destroyed the Weimar Republic and let the nazis come to power - who thrived on visceral hatred and the absence of a democratic discourse.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 32):
You still haven't answered my question: would you still have us exhaust more of our fossil fuel reserves instead?

Only for a limited transition time if necessary. It is a risk/benefit compromise either way.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 32):
And to add: alternative power sources like solar or wind power are still in their infant stages and may not yield enough to even match the output of an old coal plant.

Wind power has already left its infancy and is in its adolescence, to remain in the picture. Solar power is not nearly as far along, but the by far biggest difference is made by increased efficiency, both in the avoidance of waste during consumption (such as improved insulation and more efficient behaviour) and during production (such as hybrid heating / power generation).

Nuclear power is a dinosaur technology, which absolutely requires few dominant producers and wide-scale distribution networks. A perfect fit for monopolies, but inefficient and voraciously hungry for subsidies. The nuclear "industry" is actually a gigantic public subsidy program which will remain on the needle for decades and even centuries to come even after the last reactor has long been retired. It's high time that we spend our money more wisely.
 
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:07 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 33):
Obviously not - otherwise you'd been aware how exactly your talk of "treason" matched the way the nazis persecuted the democratic parties and their voters.

Yes I am, and as I said, I exagerated. Don't blow this mistake of mine any more out of proportion by indirectly comparing me with the Nazis. I'm the son of an immigrant father who suffered from the aftermath of WWII and the rule of Mussolini in Italy.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 33):
At the moment when hatred enters the scene, open political discourse is no longer possible, and you descend into the abyss which destroyed the Weimar Republic and let the nazis come to power - who thrived on visceral hatred and the absence of a democratic discourse.

I learned my lesson, and while I still personally hate certain parties, I can still be as objective as possible when required, even though I admit to being very subjective with things in general. Recently I wonder if I should just never voice my opinion again, because either way, I exagerate, or people simply misunderstand me (on purpose sometimes)...

Just one personal favour: please don't call me anti-democratic and indirectly someone who's ignorant of our history ever again, because that is simply not true.
 
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:23 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 34):
Just one personal favour: please don't call me anti-democratic and indirectly someone who's ignorant of our history ever again, because that is simply not true.

No problem - if you stop giving cause for it.

I believe you when you say you exaggerated, but that particular kind of exaggeration just isn't innocent (and never was).
 
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:36 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 35):
I believe you when you say you exaggerated, but that particular kind of exaggeration just isn't innocent (and never was).

Then let's put it all behind, shall we?  thumbsup  After all, we all make and learn from our mistakes.

Anyway, back on topic, a few Pressestimmen on Münte's departure: http://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/pressestimmen_aid_139079.html

Some people are foreseeing much rougher times for the Grand Coalition. In recent weeks I've been thinking that early elections might be coming once again. Unlike in 2005, when I did't vote because I wasn't very thrilled with both Schröder and Merkel (and to this day, I regret ever having voted for Schröder), I'm voting this time. The question is, if Münte's departure does mean that the Koalitionsbruch is imminent, when would it happen? I say possibly early to mid 2008.
 
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:40 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 36):
Then let's put it all behind, shall we?

Okay.  Smile

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 36):
Some people are foreseeing much rougher times for the Grand Coalition.

Rougher times? Most probably. That's what happens when the elections are approaching in a constellation such as this.

I don't think, however, that it will mean early elections. Both sides would have more to lose than to gain by that. And as we've seen the last time, this can backfire badly...
 
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:53 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 37):
I don't think, however, that it will mean early elections.

Maybe, but in the end, looking back, the SPD has become known to tear itself apart in very difficult times. They don't have a Willy Brandt or Helmut Schmidt anymore who can call them to order in some way.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 37):
And as we've seen the last time, this can backfire badly...

I don't think Angie will go the same way Schröder went with the Vertrauensfrage, although a konstruktives Misstrauensvotum is also impossible because, even if she wins it, would the SPD still back her and become willing to create a new coalition with them, or could we even expect the previously much discussed Jamaikakoalition (Black, Green and Yellow)? Bottom line, if someone makes a move with regards to possible early elections, it will be the SPD, and thus it's more of a lose-lose situation for them than it is for Angie and CDU-CSU.
 
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:42 am



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 16):
The "Linkspartei" are the communists. That is my opinion, to which I am entitled as long as this country is free.

You may be right in a way, but in reality it is people of the former SED (Communists and Sowjetzone-SocialDemocrats) who transformed into leftist SocialDemocrats and the Leftists out of the Brandt-SPD around Mr Lafontaine. That Lafontaine comes from the same region as Mr Honecker originated however gives you THE point !

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 38):
They don't have a Willy Brandt or Helmut Schmidt anymore who can call them to order in some way.

The two admirable men were admirable persons, BUT had many many problems with their party, and Schmidt in particular for most of his "reign" was in conflict with most of his party.
 
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:40 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 20):
Are you mad? I demand you to provide even the slightest evidence (quotes!) for your accusation that I would ever consider or even allow anything like that to happen!

You are a radical socialist, you accept no other opinion except your own narrow minded extrem left. You are based on ideology, nothing else, no liberal thoughts or ideas. God beware that people like you get ever any authority over other people

When someone dares to challenge you, you take out the "Nazi Keule" . That's all you guys can, defame whoever has a differemnt opinion. You don't even realize that the party program of the NPD has the same goals ( I mentioned those) as the extrem left groups have.

You can keep your apology for the insult of putting me in the NPD corner, I am not interested as I know that this would not be sincere anyway. Now, go on and jump around the fire on one leg. Have fun. Rumpelstilzchen.
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:02 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 22):
All the greens have done during their 7 years as SPD coalition partners was nothing except for getting us out of nuclear power. Getting out of nuclear power at this stage is IMO an error. Germany has one of the safest nuclear power facilities in the world,

Agreed, I think it is an error, too. We will still get nuclear power but only from France and Czech in a few years after the last German nuclear power plant is shut down. You can get out of nuclear power but you got to have an alternative. Wind and Solar does not cover our needs and in times of Global Warming we should focus to get out of oil and coal first before closing nuclear power plants.
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:41 am



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 25):

Yeah, ignorance is a bliss.

indeed. Take out your dictionary and look the word up. It says EINBLICK . I am an outsider to the Greens, I would never vote for them. Why and how should I get insight? But I know who they are and what they stand for and knowing that and having Claudia Roth almost daily on TV is, for me, the opposite of blissfulness.

.

Quoting Columba (Reply 41):
Wind and Solar does not cover our needs and in times of Global Warming we should focus to get out of oil and coal first before closing nuclear power pl

Differemt topic, but while we are at it, there ois no way around Nucelar Energy in the future and comparing Chernobyl, which was not an accident but an intentional military experiment which went wrong with our safe Nuclear reactors is one of the crimes against nature the Greens are performing since obver 30 years.
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:05 am

Latest "Stern" poll -

CDU 39% FDP 10% ttl 49%

SPD 26% Greens 8% Communists 12% ttl 46%

comfortable majority for a black/yellow coalition.
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:39 am



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 42):
Differemt topic, but while we are at it, there ois no way around Nucelar Energy in the future and comparing Chernobyl, which was not an accident but an intentional military experiment which went wrong with our safe Nuclear reactors is one of the crimes against nature the Greens are performing since obver 30 years.

Agreed. Another side which is usually not seen when talking about the closing of nuclear power plants is how many jobs are affected when you close them. One thing the red-green goverment was great in was creating jobs - in our neighbor countries.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 43):
Latest "Stern" poll -

CDU 39% FDP 10% ttl 49%

SPD 26% Greens 8% Communists 12% ttl 46%

comfortable majority for a black/yellow coalition.

Usually Spiegel polls are different than Stern polls  Smile
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:13 am



Quoting Columba (Reply 44):
jobs are affected when you close them. One thing the red-green goverment was great in was creating jobs - in our neighbor countrie

Not only that. They have no workable answer on how to reduce CO² emissions without nuclear energy. Windmills are no workable solution





Quoting Columba (Reply 44):
Usually Spiegel polls are different than Stern polls

and the voters verdict is something different again. If Angie runs against the Yeti he would not stand a chance, not even with the little helpers. If they could run in a direct competition under a majority vote, it would be in the high 70s for Angie.
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:16 am



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 45):
. If Angie runs against the Yeti he would not stand a chance, not even with the little helpers. If they could run in a direct competition under a majority vote, it would be in the high 70s for Angie.

Agreed, Merkel would win the popularity vote against Kater Karlo (Beck) but I have the big fear that Steinmeier will be the candidate of the SPD for the next election. He is very well liked with the public and due to his experience will be a real threat for Angie. I think he would be a good candidate if he would not be in the SPD.
Like you I am a supporter of the FDP, too.
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:43 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 42):
Differemt topic, but while we are at it, there ois no way around Nucelar Energy in the future and comparing Chernobyl, which was not an accident but an intentional military experiment which went wrong with our safe Nuclear reactors is one of the crimes against nature the Greens are performing since obver 30 years.

Not to mention that Chernobyl used a graphite based reactor. AFAIK, graphite based reactors are banned in Germany for safety reasons.

Quoting Columba (Reply 46):
Agreed, Merkel would win the popularity vote against Kater Karlo (Beck) but I have the big fear that Steinmeier will be the candidate of the SPD for the next election. He is very well liked with the public and due to his experience will be a real threat for Angie.

I agree that Steinmeier would be a better candidate than Provinz-Kurt (no offense intended to those in Rheinland-Pfalz). He also has what right now only few people in the SPD actually have: experience in foreign affairs. Having previously worked as Kanzleramtschef under Schröder, and yes he has become a bit of a controversial figure during that time, he gained foreign policy experience. Most of those who are candidates don't really have neither experience as a federal MP, nor in foreign policy. I'd be fine if the candidate has had participation in things that are more federally oriented than local (e.g. being a federal MP or member of the federal cabinet), and Beck knows nothing about being directly involved in creating federal policy. Just going to the Bundesrat every now and then to pass a law and hand it over to the President for his signature or veto doesn't cut it.

If I choose to vote for the SPD again, I'd vote for Steinmeier, but for now, if there are early elections next year or if the legislative term ends as scheduled, my vote will likely go to Angie.
 
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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:48 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 42):

indeed. Take out your dictionary and look the word up. It says EINBLICK .

Say what!? I don't need a dictionary, but maybe you need a copy of the Knigge, since your parents apparently never told you not to make any assumptions on things you (declaredly) don't have insight to. If you don't follow the Green's policies, that's ok. But then don't make unfounded assumptions like this:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
I know that they managed to kick out most of the B90 civil rights activists, hence they have little to say in the Green party any more.

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RE: Breaking News:German Vice Chancellor To Resign

Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:44 am

http://www.focus.de/politik/deutschl...d/wolfgang-thierse_aid_139220.html

This is truly an outrageous remark. Thierse has commented on Müntefering's resignation by saying: "Leaving his wife in the dark in Ludwigshafen, like Helmut Kohl did, is certain not an ideal".

There are many people, regardless of which party they're affiliated to, who sincerely respect Münte's decision to resign to tend to his wife, but this comparison to Hannelore Kohl, who suffered from a light allergy and later committed suicide, is truly tasteless and just plain disgusting.

What the hell was Thierse thinking? Honouring a fellow party member's decision by bashing former Chancellor Kohl for the death of his wife? Is this what German politics is coming down to in the year 2007, making very personal insults to other politicians?

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