roseflyer
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Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:21 pm

It apparently has taken 4 years, but a group of college students have turned a Chevrolet Equionox (small SUV in the United States) into a hybrid vehicle. They went from 24 to 32 miles per gallon. They seem to be doing a better job than Chevrolet engineers. The students have competed against 17 universities in order to produce the best overall vehicle using all the tools that the real developers get.

http://www.rose-hulman.edu/challengex

General Motors is really trying to catch up to Toyota to develop its hybrid program. I think that is a lofty goal, but is really good overall. Hybrids are moving more and more into mainstream American life. It is good to see American manufacturers being proactive and trying to catch up and be innovators in vehicle technology.

Anyone here own a hybrid?



[Edited 2007-11-14 06:37:02]
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
N231YE
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:42 pm

Actually, I think this is older news. I recall a PBS thing on how GM donated several Equinox SUVs, that would be modified by competing schools for the best mileage, in a variety of conditions and driving styles. The school that won was supposed to get a prize.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Thread starter):
Anyone here own a hybrid?

I do...04 Honda Civic Hybrid CVT. I absolutely love the car, but would rather drive an American car. If the Chevy Volt actually makes it to production in 2010 (and not just PR hot air, which GM and Ford seem to be good at doing), I will buy one.
 
asuflyer05
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:47 pm

It's all about clean diesels.
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:54 pm



Quoting RoseFlyer (Thread starter):
They seem to be doing a better job than Chevrolet engineers

Anyone can turn an suv into a hybrid. The hard part is doing it with materials that can be used in a production line that also don't double the cost of the suv.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
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KaiGywer
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:02 pm



Quoting RoseFlyer (Thread starter):
It apparently has taken 4 years, but a group of college students have turned a Chevrolet Equionox (small SUV in the United States) into a hybrid vehicle. They went from 24 to 32 miles per gallon. They seem to be doing a better job than Chevrolet engineers. The students have competed against 17 universities in order to produce the best overall vehicle using all the tools that the real developers get.

Well, Chevy engineers aren't too dumb either.

2008 Chevy Tahoe Hybrid

Now that's a real SUV. Equinox is a supersized station wagon  Silly

“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
MattRB
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:43 pm

Get a load of this guy and what he does..

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/120/motorhead-messiah.html
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:53 pm



Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 3):
Anyone can turn an suv into a hybrid. The hard part is doing it with materials that can be used in a production line that also don't double the cost of the suv.

While I don't agree that anyone can turn an SUV into a power-split hybrid, it is very true that implmenting it into production is very difficult.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 4):
Now that's a real SUV. Equinox is a supersized station wagon

The Chevy Tahoe coming out is worth being excited about. However it is almost easier to turn a large vehicle like that into a hybrid because there is a whole lot more space for components like the batteries and motors.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
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falstaff
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:08 pm

Ford was doing that a few years ago. I visited with the team from the University of Wisconsin in 2003 and 2004 at the SAE World Congress in Detroit. The Ford was an Explorer and they were using a small diesel engine and a traction motor.
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MD-90
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:03 am

Mississippi State University's team placed third overall in the 2006 Challenge X competition and first in several subcategories.

 
andrewuber
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:56 am

I own two hybrids, both made by Toyota Corp. I have a 2007 Prius that is a work vehicle (and can be seen on the ramp at Oakland airport), and the other is my personal vehicle - the Lexus RX 400h. The Prius sips fuel, and is a lot of fun to drive. There is a kit available that will make it reach 100 mpg, but I don't think I'll do it.

The Lexus is also fun to drive, and is surprisingly fast. Most people (myself included - before I bought hybrids) think hybrids are slow, and tradeoff performance for fuel economy. Nothing could be further from the truth - at least in the Lexus RX line. My 400h is all-wheel-drive, and it will easily outrun the gas version (the RX 350). Instead of a tachometer in the dash, we have a power meter which shows what the engine is generating - and it peaks at 200kw. Putting 200 kw to a pair of electric motors at full speed will make that car climb trees, and jump off the line like a sports car. It's a hell of a lot of fun.

Another bonus is "stealth mode". Getting in the car, pushing the start button, and leaving without the engine even starting is quite fun!

I wonder what hybrids will be like in 10 years....

Drew  wave 
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LOT767-300ER
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:51 am



Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 9):
My 400h is all-wheel-drive, and it will easily outrun the gas version (the RX 350). Instead of a tachometer in the dash, we have a power meter which shows what the engine is generating - and it peaks at 200kw. Putting 200 kw to a pair of electric motors at full speed will make that car climb trees, and jump off the line like a sports car. It's a hell of a lot of fun.

Thats one of the funniest things Ive ever read in a car thread on this forum yet.

100mpg? ROFL you mean this?

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/09...lug-in-prius-on-display-in-boston/

Bunch of BS.
 
aerobalance
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:03 am



Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 2):
It's all about clean diesels.

Fuel cells for me
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
asuflyer05
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:25 am

Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 9):
The Prius sips fuel, and is a lot of fun to drive.

The only time I've seen 'Prius' and 'fun to drive' in the same sentence was with a 'not' in between. I found it to be the most anemic driving experience. No pick up, firm ride, and horrible reward vision.

Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 11):

Fuel cells for me

Ask and ye shall receive.

Honda Debuts All-New FCX Clarity Advanced Fuel Cell Vehicle

Mass production of fuel cells are still a while off and the technology is expensive. People are still hesitant about buying hybrids because of the cost of the battery replacement. I cannot imagine what the cost of a fuel cell replacement would be. Though this new Honda FCX is a pretty good deal. A three year lease will run you about $600 a month including insurance which isn't a bad deal because it includes insurance. It would actually be cheaper for me to lease an FCX than my current Accord.

In the mean time, clean burning diesels will begin to hit the market soon and will begin to eat away at the popularity of hybrids.

[Edited 2007-11-14 23:30:18]
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:09 am



Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 12):
I've seen 'Prius' and 'fun to drive' in the same sentence was with a 'not' in between

no one should buy a Hybrid to have "fun". Most people who probably buy Hybrid's want to save money on gas in the long-term or probably have long commutes, they're not looking to have "fun" anyhow.

Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 12):
hybrids because of the cost of the battery replacement. I cannot imagine what the cost of a fuel cell replacement would be.

Toyota Warranty extends to 100,000 miles my friend's mom and dad both have Hybrids; a prius and a Camry Hybrid.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:17 am



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 13):
no one should buy a Hybrid to have "fun". Most people who probably buy Hybrid's want to save money on gas in the long-term or probably have long commutes, they're not looking to have "fun" anyhow.

Buy a diesel then and get more mpg instead on some expensive slow worthless POS.
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:19 am



Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 14):
expensive slow worthless POS.

such as?  scratchchin 
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:24 am



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 15):
such as?

Prius. Costs a ton for no reason, slow and gets abysmal MPG compared to a VW TDI.

Jeremy Clarkson put it in better words that I ever could:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDNdH9pVdsE

When I praise a VW next to another car, that car really has to be a worthless piece of crap.
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:27 am



Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 16):
slow and gets abysmal MPG compared to a VW TDI

most people who buy the Prius dont give a damn about speed, all you talk is speed and speeding  Big grin What do you drive like 95 on the highway? But youre right, there are many other cars than can get equal gas mileage to the Prius
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
andrewuber
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:54 am



Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 10):
Thats one of the funniest things Ive ever read in a car thread on this forum yet.

100mpg? ROFL you mean this?

Did you even bother to read that article? Did you even bother to check your facts before acting like an idiot?

OH wait . . . you're probably not acting

Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 12):
The only time I've seen 'Prius' and 'fun to drive' in the same sentence was with a 'not' in between. I found it to be the most anemic driving experience. No pick up, firm ride, and horrible reward vision.

They must have different Prius's in Poland than they do here in America. Or perhaps you're a Formula One driver and used to a bit of speed. Your fuel economy at 95 mph must be fantastic  sarcastic 

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 16):
Prius. Costs a ton for no reason, slow and gets abysmal MPG compared to a VW TDI.

Oh really? Costs a ton for no reason? Mine was reasonable, and fulfils the mission I purchased it for with flying colors. I am happy with mine, so I really don't give a flying rats ass if you like the car or not!

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 16):
When I praise a VW next to another car, that car really has to be a worthless piece of crap.

I've not heard much good about VW, in fact most people I know who have one say they are pigs. One friends's Toureg is in the shop more than he drives it, and another just had an engine block crack in a new Jetta. Sounds like worthless pieces of crap to me - but whatever floats your boat I guess. You too are entitled to your opinion, so let me be entitled to mine.
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flight152
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:11 pm

The worst hybrid? Easily the Lexus LS600hl. The car that was supposed to compete with high end V12 models is slower then V8 sedans and gets worse gas mileage then the LS460! It really does over promise and under deliver.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:53 pm



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 17):
most people who buy the Prius dont give a damn about speed, all you talk is speed and speeding What do you drive like 95 on the highway? But youre right, there are many other cars than can get equal gas mileage to the Prius

This has all been done before, people. My 1957 Morris Minor sedan with the 1098 cc AH Sprite engine would get 45 mpg at a steady 60 mph and nobody'd ever heard of hybrids at the time.

My friend's brother built an all electric Austin A40 that coule be seen on the streets of Bridgeport Connecticut in the early sixties. Gulton Industries used an electric Rambler station wagon to pick up people at the train station in my home town in the middle sixties.

And yes. The Prius is a tinny pisspot, which has a few more bells and whistles than my Morris Minor which was also a tinny pisspot.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
N1120A
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:22 pm



Quoting RoseFlyer (Thread starter):
It apparently has taken 4 years, but a group of college students have turned a Chevrolet Equionox (small SUV in the United States) into a hybrid vehicle. They went from 24 to 32 miles per gallon. They seem to be doing a better job than Chevrolet engineers.



Quoting MattRB (Reply 5):
Get a load of this guy and what he does..

Exactly. Johnathan Goodwin puts everyone else to shame, and he does it using a 6.6 liter truck engine.

Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 18):
Costs a ton for no reason?

Yes. It isn't luxurious, it isn't fast and it has yet to be proven reliable in the long term. It costs a ton for no reason compared to what you get.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
andrewuber
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:16 pm



Quoting Flight152 (Reply 19):
The worst hybrid? Easily the Lexus LS600hl. The car that was supposed to compete with high end V12 models is slower then V8 sedans and gets worse gas mileage then the LS460! It really does over promise and under deliver.

It's a common misconception that fuel mileage is the only figure to look at when determining if a vehicle is truly "green". While fuel burn is important, what is far more important is emissions. The LS 600Lh is a SULEV, the LS 460 is only a ULEV. And, for the record, the 600h does get better mileage than the 460. Have a look at the EPA's website and you will find the following details:

LS 460 -
City - 17 / Highway - 25
MPG Combined - 20 mpg
Fuel to drive 25 miles - 1.25 Gal
Annual Greenhouse Gas Emissions - 9.20 tons

LS 600h L -
City - 20 / Highway - 22
MPG Combined - 21 mpg
Fuel to drive 25 miles - 1.19 Gal
Annual Greenhouse Gas Emissions - 8.70 tons (by far the best in its class)

The Lexus Synergy Drive system uses regenerative braking to recharge the batteries during deceleration and braking. Depending on how you drive the vehicle, you can often get much better mileage than the EPA estimates. For example, my RX 400h stats look like this:

RX 400h -
City - 27 / Highway 25
MPG Combined - 26 mpg
Fuel to drive 25 miles - .96 Gal
Annual Greenhouse Gas Emissions - 7.10 tons

Even though they say 27 in the city, the car has a mileage tracking system that computes your exact mileage in real time, averaged out over 5 minute blocks. I've seen averages of 66 mpg in the city over sequential blocks, and seen a tank average 41 mpg.

Check out the Prius:

2007 Prius -
City - 48 / Highway 45
MPG Combined - 46 mpg
Fuel to drive 25 miles - .54 Gal
Annual Greenhouse Gas Emissions - 3.50 tons

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
Yes. It isn't luxurious, it isn't fast and it has yet to be proven reliable in the long term. It costs a ton for no reason compared to what you get.

My Prius is very nicely equipped and cost me around $24k. Given the mission I have for the vehicle (driving around the city and the airport ramp, long periods at idle, occaisional short trips, etc), it performs exceptionally well. I personally find it fun to drive as well - it has great visibility (especially out the back, which was a big concern of mine until I actually drove one), it has plenty of get-up for what I need (I'm not trying to drag-race any Labroghinis), and the hybrid is fun to drive. It's almost like a game, you go out, turn on the energy monitor, and try to beat your high mileage score! My personal best is a 30 minute block of 100mpg + while driving west out of Flagstaff, AZ.

Seriously - before you bash hybrids, go out a drive one! See for yourself! I was of the opinion that hybrids were for Grandma's who were tree-huggers, but then I tried it - and I'm hooked.

Just test drive one before you make your comments on how crappy they are.

Drew  wave 
I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
 
flight152
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:43 pm



Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 23):
LS 460 -
MPG Combined - 20 mpg



Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 23):
LS 600h L -
MPG Combined - 21 mpg

This is supposed to justify the $30,000 price difference? Face it, the LS600hl is an unjustifiable purchase.
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:47 pm



Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 18):
Your fuel economy at 95 mph must be fantastic

 rotfl 

Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 18):
Costs a ton for no reason?

 rotfl , last I checked Priuses didnt exceed over 25K

Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 23):
monitor, and try to beat your high mileage score! My personal best is a 30 minute block of 100mpg + while driving west out of Flagstaff, AZ.

That's what people do with Hybrid's, not check the high speed, but the best fuel economy  Big grin .
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
andrewuber
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:24 pm



Quoting Flight152 (Reply 24):
This is supposed to justify the $30,000 price difference? Face it, the LS600hl is an unjustifiable purchase.

Whoa - I should have specified - I still think $115,000 is frickin OUTRAGEOUS for the car!!! I wouldn't pay it!
I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
 
N1120A
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:55 am



Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 23):

My Prius is very nicely equipped and cost me around $24k.

Which is overpriced for what it is, particularly if you get a dealer who goes crazy with the markup. I would much rather have the upcoming MINI D, which will perform and drive better than the Prius, while being more efficient and cleaner burning, all while giving the option of biofuel.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:16 am



Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 26):
I still think $115,000 is frickin OUTRAGEOUS for the car!!!

that seems more than the competitors is it not?
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
N231YE
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:58 am

My Civic Hybrid's price premium (over the comparably equipped LX model) was $1500. Considering the fact that I have owned it almost 4 years now, and plan to own it for several more years; I'll get my money's worth out of it. And don't give me that "batteries go bad in 5 years" bullcrap. The car has a 8year/80k mile warranty on the IMA system.

Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 23):
It's almost like a game, you go out, turn on the energy monitor, and try to beat your high mileage score!

Same thing here. Only I don't like to be the annoying person that holds up traffic, so I'll "go with the flow" up to a certain point. However, its sad to say that I get better mileage than the cruise control, contrary to all of the recommendations from auto companies, experts, media, etc  silly 

Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 11):
Fuel cells for me



Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 12):
Mass production of fuel cells are still a while off and the technology is expensive. People are still hesitant about buying hybrids because of the cost of the battery replacement. I cannot imagine what the cost of a fuel cell replacement would be. Though this new Honda FCX is a pretty good deal. A three year lease will run you about $600 a month including insurance which isn't a bad deal because it includes insurance. It would actually be cheaper for me to lease an FCX than my current Accord.

I hate to say it, but fuel cells are a nice facade of a growing problem. Most likely, the H2 will come from oil or natural gas. And, (I really don't care of your opinion of Global Warming) but H2O vapor, the "exhaust" from fuel cells, is an even bigger greenhouse gas than CO2.

Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 12):
In the mean time, clean burning diesels will begin to hit the market soon and will begin to eat away at the popularity of hybrids.

I wouldn't jump on that yet. Considering the fact that the failure of diesels more than 2 decades ago left a bad image in many Americans' minds, I don't think that diesels will sell that much better than hybrids.


So in my opinion, the best car is diesel and hybrid. So as I stated earlier, if the Chevy Volt makes it into production, that will be my dream car: being able to drive all-electric for 40 miles and burn diesel beyond that.
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:06 am



Quoting N231YE (Reply 33):
years; I'll get my money's worth out of it. And don't give me that "batteries go bad in 5 years" bullcrap. The car has a 8year/80k mile warranty on the IMA system

everyone seems to forget the warranty.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
L-188
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:38 am



Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 4):
Well, Chevy engineers aren't too dumb either.

2008 Chevy Tahoe Hybrid

Wasn't Chevy test marketing a Hybrid C1500 Pickup a few years back? I think I remember seeing brochure the local dealer.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 34):
N231YE (Reply 33):
years; I'll get my money's worth out of it. And don't give me that "batteries go bad in 5 years" bullcrap. The car has a 8year/80k mile warranty on the IMA system

everyone seems to forget the warranty

No but they loose MPG rapidly in sub-zero weather. The batteries don't hold charges as well, and the engine can never get up to operating temperture so it doesn't burn gas cleanly or efficiently.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
asuflyer05
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:00 am



Quoting N231YE (Reply 33):

I wouldn't jump on that yet. Considering the fact that the failure of diesels more than 2 decades ago left a bad image in many Americans' minds, I don't think that diesels will sell that much better than hybrids.

Jeep doubled it's sales expectations when it released the Liberty CRD back in 2006. They canned it because of stricter environmental laws.

Quoting N231YE (Reply 33):
My Civic Hybrid's price premium (over the comparably equipped LX model) was $1500. Considering the fact that I have owned it almost 4 years now, and plan to own it for several more years; I'll get my money's worth out of it. And don't give me that "batteries go bad in 5 years" bullcrap. The car has a 8year/80k mile warranty on the IMA system.

Most people will exhaust the warranty before the 8 year mark because of the number of miles they drive.
 
N231YE
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:39 am



Quoting L-188 (Reply 30):
Wasn't Chevy test marketing a Hybrid C1500 Pickup a few years back? I think I remember seeing brochure the local dealer.

They did. It was an ultra-mild hybrid, dropped last year. GM is going to bring it back next year or 2009, to be replaced by a version powered by their new dual-mode system.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 30):
No but they loose MPG rapidly in sub-zero weather. The batteries don't hold charges as well, and the engine can never get up to operating temperture so it doesn't burn gas cleanly or efficiently.

 checkmark  One of the times that I will agree that hybrids suck, in that form of weather.

Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 31):
Jeep doubled it's sales expectations when it released the Liberty CRD back in 2006. They canned it because of stricter environmental laws.

Well, it depends on what their sales expectations were. When the Asian automakers start selling diesels, I can see it begin to take off, but I really don't see it now. In fact, with the exception of diesel pickups, diesels in my area are less common than hybrids.

Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 31):
Most people will exhaust the warranty before the 8 year mark because of the number of miles they drive.

The average person drives 12k miles a/year. In that case, the warranty should last 6 years, 8 months. According to Honda, since they introduced the Insight to the USA almost 9 years ago, they've replaced only a handful of batteries. The Prius is 8 years/ 100k miles (8 years, 4 months). One of the "never mentioned" facts is that a battery failure is often due to a bad cell that can be replaced for less than $100.
 
N1120A
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:09 pm



Quoting N231YE (Reply 28):
And, (I really don't care of your opinion of Global Warming) but H2O vapor, the "exhaust" from fuel cells, is an even bigger greenhouse gas than CO2.

Only if it gets into the stratosphere.

Quoting N231YE (Reply 32):

The average person drives 12k miles a/year.

And how about if you take out the outliers and look at the biggest car markets?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:15 pm



Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 2):
It's all about clean diesels.

Great. Let's go from gasoline that really only has application as a motor fuel for cars and light trucks and switch to a fuel that is used for home heating oil, heavy trucks, medium trucks, trains, farm equipment, power generation equipment and everything else under the sun. We can't make any more fuel without a new refinery, and we can't vary the amounts of the different products from a barrel of crude, at least not very much. Gasoline would be back to $0.25 a gallon but Diesel would be $10.00 a gallon.

There are two alternatives. Build new refineries, or use less fuel. There is no viable third option right now.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 13):
no one should buy a Hybrid to have "fun". Most people who probably buy Hybrid's want to save money on gas in the long-term or probably have long commutes, they're not looking to have "fun" anyhow.

Most people who obsess over hybrids don't know what fun is. I know someone who got rid of a Prius for a V6 Honda Accord. They were sick of being almost run over on the highway for about the same fuel economy. The really amazing thing is they didn't have to give up much cash to trade in a 2 year old Prius for a new Accord.

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 19):
It really does over promise and under deliver.

That is true of most, probably all, hybrids I have encountered.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 30):
No but they loose MPG rapidly in sub-zero weather. The batteries don't hold charges as well, and the engine can never get up to operating temperture so it doesn't burn gas cleanly or efficiently.

They aren't wroth a shit in hot weather either. Running the air conditioning kills the battery fast and the heat isn't great for the batteries either. Most people I know with Priuses traded them in after a summer or two of only getting 35mpg.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
flight152
Posts: 3221
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 8:04 am

RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:15 pm



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 27):
that seems more than the competitors is it not?

Compared with its V12 competitors, it's cheaper by at least $10-$20,000.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:23 pm



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 34):
Build new refineries

There are already enough refineries. They are currently operating significantly under capacity, particularly as compares to the early 2000s and 1990s

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/mopueus2m.htm

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 34):
There is no viable third option right now.

There absolutely is, and they are called bio-fuels. I am not talking about using virgin materials either, rather using spent cooking oil and products like cellulocic ethanol.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:37 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):
There are already enough refineries. They are currently operating significantly under capacity, particularly as compares to the early 2000s and 1990s

Funny, Valero Energy, one of the biggest refiners in the US says both externally and internally they are nearly maxed out. Nearly meaning they have to take plants offline from time to time for maintenance. Or are they lying to shareholders, employees, and the public? They must be hiding capacity just for fun. That 2-3 cents per gallon of profit the corporation sees doesn't vary no matter what the price at the pump is.

Source: A couple internal training presentations on retail marketing, crude fudamentals, and basics of refining given by Valero. Scanning in the powerpoint handouts would mean getting up.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):
There absolutely is, and they are called bio-fuels.

Which according to Cummins, Caterpillar and Detroit Diesel can't make enough power for heavy trucks, construction equipment, and most other high horsepower applications.

Great, so we will just run all the cars on vegetable oil. This means the price of corn, soybeans, peanuts, and everything else used to make cooking oil will go nuts. It is supply and demand. There isn't enough used cooking oil in the world to keep all our cars running. The price of corn is already on the rise due to the demand for ethanol.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:16 pm



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 37):
A couple internal training presentations on retail marketing

And I quoted an actual, accessible US government source

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 37):
Funny, Valero Energy, one of the biggest refiners in the US says both externally and internally they are nearly maxed out.

Well, the US DOE says they aren't.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 37):

Which according to Cummins, Caterpillar and Detroit Diesel can't make enough power for heavy trucks, construction equipment, and most other high horsepower applications.

Oh really? GM also said that it would be impossible to put the Duramax into a Hummer. As far as "high horsepower" goes, 380 bhp is nothing compared to the 800 bhp Johnathan Goodwin is getting.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 37):

Great, so we will just run all the cars on vegetable oil. This means the price of corn, soybeans, peanuts, and everything else used to make cooking oil will go nuts.

Not if a proper, integrated system is used. First, using spent oil products would cut heavily into the need for virgin materials. Second, focusing on canola for virgin product would create a much more viable and efficient source. Finally, greater public transport would also have to be used.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 37):
The price of corn is already on the rise due to the demand for ethanol

Mostly because corn is a highly inefficient, cost intensive source of ethanol. Brazil uses sugar cane (which is really heavily subsidized in the US anyway), which is more efficient and can have its waste products used to make very efficient electricity. Further, Cellulocic Ethanol comes from biomass waste products of various industries and is more efficient still. All without increasing corn prices.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:50 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
Not if a proper, integrated system is used.

When has the US government ever attempted something like this and not screwed it up?

Any private company willing to take the risk probably doesn't have the capital to make it last.

That means it is never going to happen.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
Oh really? GM also said that it would be impossible to put the Duramax into a Hummer.

There are a couple different kinds of impossible. That is "we don't want to" or "we don't want to hurt our profits" impossible.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
Well, the US DOE says they aren't.

I am more likely to believe the people actually operating the plants. That down time the DOE might be seeing might be down time for maintenance. You don't think if oil companies could sell more gas they would? They make the same money off the gallon no matter what the price at the pump is so driving the price up is pointless. Also getting all the companies to work together to make the market price rise to over $3 a gallon for regular gas would involve a conspiracy that no tin foil hat would block out.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
As far as "high horsepower" goes, 380 bhp is nothing compared to the 800 bhp Johnathan Goodwin is getting.

But can he do it reliably, and mass produce the motors? If so then I guess Cummins, Cat, and Detroit should just close down now.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
Mostly because corn is a highly inefficient, cost intensive source of ethanol.

But we use it because we have it

Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
Brazil uses sugar cane

They use it because they have it.

So you want to shift what probably tens of thousands of acres of farmland produce from one product to another just like waving a magic wand.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:42 pm

Back OT, do the students have to consider the patents Toyota got?
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:02 pm



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 39):

When has the US government ever attempted something like this and not screwed it up?

The Interstate Highway System. Besides, who said the government would have to do it.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 39):

There are a couple different kinds of impossible. That is "we don't want to" or "we don't want to hurt our profits" impossible.

Who says that would hurt profits? They said it was impossible from an engineering point of view.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 39):

I am more likely to believe the people actually operating the plants. That down time the DOE might be seeing might be down time for maintenance.

And they never did maintenance before?

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 39):
You don't think if oil companies could sell more gas they would?

No

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 39):

But can he do it reliably, and mass produce the motors?

Reliably yes. As far as mass production goes, if you can make it in a small quantity, you can do the same in a large quantity and do it more efficiently.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 39):

But we use it because we have it

Apparently, we don't have it. If we did, prices wouldn't have jumped.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 39):

So you want to shift what probably tens of thousands of acres of farmland produce from one product to another just like waving a magic wand.

It wouldn't require such a thing. As it is, the US produces massive amounts of sugar cane that is highly subsidized and production controlled. That need would be erased if fuel was created from it.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:15 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 41):
The Interstate Highway System. Besides, who said the government would have to do it.

So the last time the government did something right was 50 years ago. I can agree with that.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 41):
Who says that would hurt profits? They said it was impossible from an engineering point of view.

Nothing is impossible, they just didn't want to re-engineer the vehicle, thus hurting their financial forecasts.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 41):
And they never did maintenance before?

I never said that. That time was probably recorded as downtime then, just like it is now.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 41):

No

right, the oil companies like running up against supply shortages.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 41):
Reliably yes. As far as mass production goes, if you can make it in a small quantity, you can do the same in a large quantity and do it more efficiently.

thats open to a lot of debate

Quoting N1120A (Reply 41):
Apparently, we don't have it. If we did, prices wouldn't have jumped.

We have more corn than we have sugar cane. There is a finite amount of land used for farming in this country. To make more of one product you have to make less of another.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
AirTranTUS
Posts: 3313
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:12 am

RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:56 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):
I would much rather have the upcoming MINI D, which will perform and drive better than the Prius

You won't have as much interior space though. If you only have 2 people, fine, but if you are a small family, no joy.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):
There absolutely is, and they are called bio-fuels. I am not talking about using virgin materials either, rather using spent cooking oil and products like cellulocic ethanol.

That is the best way to do it. That stuff normally goes to waste anyway, so soon we should be able to pull up to BK, get a Whopper, and a tank of fuel.

Quoting N231YE (Reply 28):
Most likely, the H2 will come from oil or natural gas.

If you read Honda's info on their fuel cell car, you will see that their home energy system makes Hydrogen from natural gas, but also uses the gas to provide power to the home.
I love ASO!
 
LAXspotter
Posts: 3227
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:16 pm

RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:00 am



Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 43):
If you only have 2 people, fine, but if you are a small family, no joy

ha, N1120A is going to say how much legroom in the back there is in the Mini D, sadly I've never seen more than 2 people in that car.

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 43):
and a tank of fuel.

yep, I saw a little segment on "Ripley's Believe it or Not" a couple of years ago, I'm guessing its going to become the norm
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
AirTranTUS
Posts: 3313
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:12 am

RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:02 pm



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 44):
ha, N1120A is going to say how much legroom in the back there is in the Mini D, sadly I've never seen more than 2 people in that car.

I've been in the back of a Mini S, and there isn't much room at all. And forget taking anything with you if there are 4 people in the car. At least the Prius has some trunk space.
I love ASO!
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:06 pm



Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 43):

You won't have as much interior space though. If you only have 2 people, fine, but if you are a small family, no joy.

A small family will fit. Kids don't need nearly the legroom of their parents.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 42):

So the last time the government did something right was 50 years ago. I can agree with that.

And they keep building roads at an astounding pace. Unfortunately, roads are not the solution.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 42):

Nothing is impossible, they just didn't want to re-engineer the vehicle, thus hurting their financial forecasts.

Um, I don't think anything can further hurt GM's finances

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 42):

I never said that. That time was probably recorded as downtime then, just like it is now.

Yet they were producing at significantly higher percentages than now.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 42):

right, the oil companies like running up against supply shortages.

Yes, because demand has softened, which means they need something to push their prices higher.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 42):

thats open to a lot of debate

That production is more efficient when done in greater quantity? I don't think so

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 42):
We have more corn than we have sugar cane. There is a finite amount of land used for farming in this country. To make more of one product you have to make less of another.

The issue is, you are using a product that is less efficient. Despite having more corn, you get a lot less energy out of it, which means you negate the effect of having more. Further, they haven't found a way to negate the negative effects of corn ethanol at this point.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
AirTranTUS
Posts: 3313
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:12 am

RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:43 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 46):
A small family will fit. Kids don't need nearly the legroom of their parents.

So they will just buy a new car when their kids pass 10? Why not spend a bit more at the beginning and not have to spend any later?
I love ASO!
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9606
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:47 am



Quoting N231YE (Reply 28):
And, (I really don't care of your opinion of Global Warming) but H2O vapor, the "exhaust" from fuel cells, is an even bigger greenhouse gas than CO2.

Are you claiming that water vapor is bad for the environment? If you are, then that is probably the most ridiculous statement I've read in a long time. It's been a while since college chemistry, but how can water vapor be a big greenhouse gas in the form of pollution? Water vapor in the atmosphere is what makes this planet liveable.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 40):
Back OT, do the students have to consider the patents Toyota got?

Toyota didn't patent the idea of a hybrid. They did patent specific components like the transmission, but in general in a case like this, the students are developing their own systems and don't have to worry about patents. In the case of Rose-Hulman, Toyota actually sponsors their team and provides technical and financial support. The Toyota name is actually written on the back of Rose-Hulman's car.

Overall it's about innovation and experience.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
N231YE
Posts: 2620
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:24 am

RE: Hybrid Chevy SUV Developed By College Students

Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:44 am



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 48):
Are you claiming that water vapor is bad for the environment? If you are, then that is probably the most ridiculous statement I've read in a long time. It's been a while since college chemistry, but how can water vapor be a big greenhouse gas in the form of pollution? Water vapor in the atmosphere is what makes this planet liveable.

I don't think you understand. Just like CO2, H2O (vapor) is needed for life. It also happens to be one of the biggest greenhouse gasses. It is due to this property, among others, that helped to keep life sustainable.

Think about it: on a cloudy night, temperatures are warmer than on cool nights.

If people started emmiting tons and tons of water vapor, well, I really don't want to know what would happen. Of course, if H2 was derived from splitting H2O, than this would not be a problem, as the O2 released during production would be fused back together in the fuel cell.

Just like CO2 , H2O is non toxic-obviously. However, there is a normal range that these ingredients should be, just like chlorine in a pool.

Maybe I am thinking too "pessimistic," but based on what I know about water, maybe you can piece together where I am going.

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