Kieron747
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Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:29 pm

Pakistan has been suspended from the Commonwealth because of its imposition of emergency rule, the organisation has announced after a meeting in Uganda.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7108543.stm

I didn't see that one coming!

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OA260
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:56 pm

What does the Commonwealth actually do ??? What benefit is it to members??? You get a visit from the Queen every 20-30 years and kids wave flags and pretend to love their former rulers.
 
Kieron747
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:06 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 1):
What does the Commonwealth actually do ??? What benefit is it to members??? You get a visit from the Queen every 20-30 years and kids wave flags and pretend to love their former rulers

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7105613.stm
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OA260
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:24 pm

Ok so its a social talk shop then . I remember going to the commonwealth institute in London when I was a kid . Does it still exist???
 
BHXFAOTIPYYC
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:14 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 3):
Ok so its a social talk shop then

Lot like the EU then  Wink

Commonwealth: 53 nations are members (including former Portuguese colony Mozambique) with more to come - Algeria, Sudan, Yemen, Rwanda. 1.9 billion people are Commonwealth citizens, or about 1 in every 3 people on the planet.
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:26 am



Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 4):
Algeria, Sudan, Yemen, Rwanda

While Sudan (Anglo-Egyptian Sudan) and Yemen (Aden+Hadramawt) make some sense, I am astonished by formerly French Algeria (Algerie Francaise) and by formerly German-then-Belgian Rwanda .
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:07 am

Why does Algeria want to join the Commonwealth? I don't remember Algeria having any common History with the United Kingdom...  Yeah sure
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:15 am



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 6):
Why does Algeria want to join the Commonwealth? I don't remember Algeria having any common History with the United Kingdom... Yeah sure

-
When in the late 1980ies early 1990ies, France made it difficult for Algerian tourists to visit France (financial requirements, quotas, etc) Algerian tourists alternatively went to other countries, Britain among them. And thereafter, more and more Algerian students went to British language schools or/and universities, tourists started to develop a preference for London, and many even found work in Britain. So that the U.K. is seen as a good alternative to France. The Commonwealth idea apparently comes from the idea that such a membership will also be helpful in regard to cultural, educational and economic affairs. As Algeria, together with Morocco, Tunisia, Egpyt, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan now is linked up with the E.U. through bilateral treaties, to increase its links to European countries of course is interesting.
-
Look at Mozambique which was a Portuguese colony and now is a member of the Commonwealth. I heard that Mocambique even changed the driving from right-side to left-side.
 
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:21 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 1):
You get a visit from the Queen every 20-30 years and kids wave flags and pretend to love their former rulers.

Thats it. Actually the benefits seemed rather minimal, or maybe I didnt read to carefully, can some ennumerate the important benefits of being part of the Commonwealth.
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MadameConcorde
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:21 am

I was talking about past History. Your references are less than 20 years. Also I have never heard of any financial requirements for Algerian "tourists" visiting France. I think it was rather for those wanting long term stay with a "carte de séjour" to reside in France.
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:14 am



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 9):
I have never heard of any financial requirements for Algerian "tourists" visiting France. I think it was rather for those wanting long term stay with a "carte de séjour" to reside in France.

THIS was declared by France but it in reality heavily affected short-term tourists for one or two or three weeks and even business people (small shop owners) who then shifted their shopping to Britain, Germany and Switzerland.
-

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 9):
past History

IN "past history" there is not much common ground indeed. Until 1830, Algeria was part of the Ottoman Empire, but not of the British Empire. And thereafter came the occupation by France.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:57 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 1):
What does the Commonwealth actually do ???

Get together every four years for some games?

Quoting OA260 (Reply 3):
I remember going to the commonwealth institute in London when I was a kid . Does it still exist???

It was a regular school visit for me. A long time ago now.  old 

No, it doesn't exist any more. It was closed in the '90s.
http://www.rbkc.gov.uk/ArtsAndMuseum.../CommonwealthInstitute/default.asp
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:07 pm



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 11):
for some games?

Algeria is not interested in strange games but in educational programs, trade-links, and maybe a tiny bit of support ...
 
BigTom
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:26 pm

Pakistan should tell them to stuff it and refuse to rejoin. It's not as if all members of the club are exemplary democracies anyway ...

Cheers
 
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:40 pm



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 8):
Thats it. Actually the benefits seemed rather minimal, or maybe I didnt read to carefully, can some ennumerate the important benefits of being part of the Commonwealth.

Trade, principally. The Commonwealth tends to be of more importance to the less affluent members than it is to the likes of Britain, Canada, Australia or India, because they have a strong or fairly strong voice elsewhere.

Amongst African nations, it remains extremely important, which is why you are seeing nations like Algeria, who never had any link with Britain expressing a desire to join.

For Britain itself, the origin of the empire, the Commonwealth is often viewed as something of a pain a lot of the time, particularly when it allows certain autocrats the opportunity to tell the world why it's Britain's fault that their country is collapsing and the people starving. To a lesser extent, Australia and Canada get the same treatment. Nevertheless, there remains a sense of shared heritage amongst most of the countries, for better or worse, and that Britain is no longer the centre of the organisation can only be healthy.

Most importantly of all, however, the rise of India means that the Commonwealth may actually become more important in the future rather than less, as a club for both old and new powers to be able to talk to each other without the global politicking that characterises the UN.

And one thing about the Commonwealth Games: It might be of variable quality a lot of the time, but most people probably do recognise the way that it does represent a degree of a family reunion. The Games are a lot of fun, and the nickname of the "Friendly" Games is pretty accurate.
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OA260
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:31 pm



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 11):
It was a regular school visit for me. A long time ago now.

No, it doesn't exist any more. It was closed in the '90s.
http://www.rbkc.gov.uk/ArtsAndMuseum...t.asp

My Dad took me as a kid to show me where he was from. It was quite a nice place.
 
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:36 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 6):
Why does Algeria want to join the Commonwealth? I don't remember Algeria having any common History with the United Kingdom...

Is this a good time to mention that France was considering joining in the 1950's?
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:40 pm



Quoting BigTom (Reply 13):
Pakistan should tell them to stuff it and refuse to rejoin. It's not as if all members of the club are exemplary democracies anyway ...

Is this another case of double standards, the oldest cliche in int'l affairs ?
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:50 pm



Quoting BigTom (Reply 13):
Pakistan should tell them to stuff it and refuse to rejoin. It's not as if all members of the club are exemplary democracies anyway ...

-
I do NOT own a crystal ball but am quite sure that Pakistan will be fully re-installed --- it anyway just was suspended and not expelled

Quoting OA260 (Reply 15):
was quite a nice place.

so was the LTC School of English at Oxford Street / Tottenham Court Road --- but such institutions sometimes simply fade away
 
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yowza
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:34 pm

What a fantastic idea. The same move worked so well with Zimbabwe.  Yeah sure Why don't politician realize that real action needs to be taken instead of keeping on with these stupid meaningless ones?

As for the CW, I wish Canada would drop out of it, it's painful when the CW Games are on displacing my regularly scheduled programming and besides what was the last thing of note the CW did?

YOWza
 
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:51 pm



Quoting YOWza (Reply 19):
real action needs to be taken instead of keeping on with these stupid meaningless ones?

those "real" actions you may have in mind would punish the people but NOT the leadership.
 
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:12 am



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 20):
those "real" actions you may have in mind would punish the people but NOT the leadership.

If by 'real actions' you mean military, that will never happen. No Commonwealth country has the political will nor the required firepower to take on Pakistan in Pakistan. Economic sanctions will only hurt the Pakistani people and not the ruling military elite.

Cheers
 
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:41 am

Disclaimer: Having worked in an international organization for the first part of my career, I am a cynic.

The Commonwealth is as (not) relevant as the worthless UN. Both should be cancelled ... well, at least the UN should focus on some core competencies (see, international org talk) such as UNHCR, UNICEF, and UNESCO. Everything else goes.

Bancos comments and analysis are spot on though.

Cheers,
A.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:00 am

Watch those Weapons  Smile
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OA260
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:34 am



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 22):
The Commonwealth is as (not) relevant as the worthless UN. Both should be cancelled ... well, at least the UN should focus on some core competencies (see, international org talk) such as UNHCR, UNICEF, and UNESCO. Everything else goes.

Will you stop agreeing with me LOL......its no fun anymore Big grin
 
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:23 pm



Quoting BigTom (Reply 21):
Economic sanctions will only hurt the Pakistani people and not the ruling military elite.

I meant economic sanctions, and cultural sanctions. Dictatorial or semi-dictatorial rulers do NOT care for such things
 
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:35 pm



Quoting Banco (Reply 14):
Most importantly of all, however, the rise of India means that the Commonwealth may actually become more important in the future rather than less, as a club for both old and new powers to be able to talk to each other without the global politicking that characterises the UN.

That is wishful thinking. As the nation with the largest population and economy, India will require the Commonwealth to eliminate the British monarch's current role in it, if we were indeed to drive the organization, for reasons no different from why the BCCI takes on the ICC in cricket - we aren't about to be anyone else's sock puppet. Unlike all other major C'wealth nations (except South Africa), we are a functioning democratic republic.

Besides it never quite made sense to me why India even remains within such a white man's club, considering one of the first things we did upon independence was constitute a republic; the 1949 London Declaration is little more than a statement of convulted political accomodation to keep India within the organization. The most telling contribution from the C'wealth has been New Delhi's public works program in preparation for the 2010 C'Wealth Games, but then the city saw the same kind of development prior to when it last hosted an Asian Games (1982).
 
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yowza
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:38 am



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 20):
those "real" actions you may have in mind would punish the people but NOT the leadership.

So you're suggesting politicos just keep making long winded statements that have not net result? Come on. I am as against making innocents suffer but there is a line... Get Musharraf out now.

YOWza
 
BigTom
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:47 am

The Commonwealth, even if it talks up a storm and condemns like it was going out of style, will not be able to make Musharraf step down, that can only be done by the Pakistani people.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 25):
I meant economic sanctions, and cultural sanctions. Dictatorial or semi-dictatorial rulers do NOT care for such things

Culturally Pakistan lies within the S Asian community and the Middle East, and really does not need the Commonwealth's cultural handouts. IMO they should leave this club that is rooted in the past and so should India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka.

Cheers
 
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:21 am



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 25):
I meant economic sanctions, and cultural sanctions. Dictatorial or semi-dictatorial rulers do NOT care for such things

= Ok, what are cultural sanctions?

-A.
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:53 am



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 29):
Ok, what are cultural sanctions?

The Queen will not visit and get photographed with orphans and AIDS victims. That prospect itself should make Musharraf step down in a hurry.  Big grin

Cheers
 
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:58 pm



Quoting YOWza (Reply 27):
Get Musharraf out now

Sanctions which will hit Musharraf may be a stop to Pakistani officials being invited to Commonwealth summits and other conferences etc, but not hindrances against Pakistani students or sportsmen or musicians and other such people.
-

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 29):
cultural sanctions?

cultural sanctions are hindrances against arists of a particular country, a stop of cultural contacts etc
-

Quoting BigTom (Reply 30):
Musharraf step down

the idea anyway is not to see him stepping down, but him allowing REAL parliamentary elections
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:28 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 31):
cultural sanctions are hindrances against arists of a particular country, a stop of cultural contacts etc

There does not exist many as it is.  Smile
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abrelosojos
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:58 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 31):
cultural sanctions are hindrances against arists of a particular country, a stop of cultural contacts etc

= Do you think that a country dubbed by Newsweek as the most dangerous in the world (over Iraq and Afghanistan) would really care if cultural contacts between other Commonwealth members are stopped? Besides, its not like there is a huge demand for product Commonwealth in Pakistan ... except for Indian movies ... and I hear thats banned already.

Cheers,
A.
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Banco
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:02 am



Quoting BarfBag (Reply 26):
India will require the Commonwealth to eliminate the British monarch's current role in it,

Her position as Head of the Commonwealth has nothing to do with her position as British (or indeed any other country) head of state. There's no constitutional requirement whatsoever for the Queen to be head of the Commonwealth. It's really about her, not her position.
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BarfBag
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:38 am

Banco: That is just nitpicking. The Queen is first and foremost the British head of state, and will always be recognized as such, before any other title. The London Declaration essentially places the role of Head of Commonwealth upon the British monarch; there is no system of rotating the role amongst the heads of states of the members. The Commonwealth as it stands now, is therefore Anglocentric. That is an anachronistic construct, and cannot remain if India were indeed to serve as a reason for the Commonwealth to remain relevant; an organization we drive would be centred around us, not Britain. As it stands, it's purpose is at best questionable, and its attempts to 'sanction' nations are laughably self-aggrandizing. Being sanctioned by the Commonwealth probably comes somewhere near the bottom of the list of worries of dictators like Mugabe or Musharraf.
 
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:18 am



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 33):
= Do you think that a country dubbed by Newsweek as the most dangerous in the world (over Iraq and Afghanistan) would really care if cultural contacts between other Commonwealth members are stopped?

Here we go again. If you mean the President, the answer is a DEFINITE no, but if you mean normal people then the answer is Yes-sure. In other words, as said before, such steps would hit normal people but not the ruler. "the most dangerous in the world" is rather to be sorted into the headlines-category. As you for sure can travel around in cities like Karachi and Lahore and Rawalpindi, without actual fear, unless you are "exposed" (politician/rich/famous/etc) while you rather cannot do this in Baghdad.
-

Quoting Banco (Reply 34):
no constitutional requirement

some questions :
does "constitutional" refer to the U.K. or to the Commonwealth ?
did here defacto-role in the Commonwealth result from the tradion of British monarchs ?
- or is it somewhere in the agreement(s) of the Commonwealth ?
could the Commonwealth,. rather theoretically, elect a kind of Secretary General of the Commonwealth ?

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 35):
Commonwealth as it stands now, is therefore Anglocentric.

as the organisation came out of the British Empire it IS Anglocentric by nature. I however cannot tell you whether the Brits in general and the Queen in particular would so heavily oppose if a majority of Commonwealth members voted in favour of having a Secretary General, elected by the members, and this not unlimited but for 5-years-periods.
 
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:33 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 7):
I heard that Mocambique even changed the driving from right-side to left-side.

I think that was before they joined the Commonwealth, and was purely a practical move. All of their neighbouring states drive on the left, and most of Mozambique's cars are imported from South Africa, which doesn't produce left-hand-drive cars AFAIK.
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:28 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 37):
purely a practical move

-
Algeria might find such a change interesting, not least as it would DISconvenience visiting Frenchmen !  Big grin  Big grin
 
BarfBag
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:01 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 36):
as the organisation came out of the British Empire it IS Anglocentric by nature. I however cannot tell you whether the Brits in general and the Queen in particular would so heavily oppose if a majority of Commonwealth members voted in favour of having a Secretary General, elected by the members, and this not unlimited but for 5-years-periods.

There is a position of Commonwealth Secretary General, who leads the Secretariat (analogous to the UN General Assembly). In fact, India takes over the position starting 2008. It is the position of the British monarch as the Head of Commonwealth - as well as any symbolism with the British crown, such as the 'Queen's baton relay' of the Commonwealth Games - that must be abolished, for the organization to have any meaning in future.

The Commonwealth as it stands is generally meaningless to most of its non-Anglospheric members. It just provides the weaker countries some low hanging fruit, while otherwise it serves to provide nothing more than the odd CHOGM summit and the games every four years; until the last decade or so, India didn't even place much emphasis on the Cwealth Games, with the Asian Games always receiving greater interest. Considering how little we care about any sport that's not cricket, it just shows how much the Cwealth Games mattered at all.

In its current shape, the Commonwealth is doomed to wither and die, or shrink into an organization of British crown colonies and constitutional monarchies for whom the British monarch serves as head of state, because it lacks sufficient cohesion in any other form under a British lead.
 
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:58 am



Quoting BarfBag (Reply 39):
There is a position of Commonwealth Secretary General, who leads the Secretariat (analogous to the UN General Assembly). In fact, India takes over the position starting 2008. It is the position of the British monarch as the Head of Commonwealth - as well as any symbolism with the British crown, such as the 'Queen's baton relay' of the Commonwealth Games - that must be abolished, for the organization to have any meaning in future. The Commonwealth as it stands is generally meaningless to most of its non-Anglospheric members.

-
First of all, I think that India has a very important role, possibly the leading one, in the Commonwealth anyway, with or without the Queen as nominal head, and with or without such "monarchical" gestures. BUT the Commonwealth basically IS an organisation of "Anglophone" countries. The entry of Mocambique did not change this and neither will an entry of Algeria. What can be the "meaning" of the organisation without a reference to English language and culture based on that language ? What is the common element of Fiji, Australia, India, , Kenya, Ghana, Nigeria, Gambia, Cyprus, Malta, Jamaica, Belize and Canada ? I think that it is obvious that, in view of the fact that many Commonwealth members are Republics, the British Monarch is no longer as important to the organisation as she used to be in the 1950ies. The Queen anyway has some ceremonial duties like being the nominal head of the Anglican church, which do not mean that she holds "power" in such things.
-
The Commonwealth is of interest to countries like Mocambique and Algeria who for various reasons are eager to get closer relations with the English speaking world. In case of Algeria, there of course is a kind of "identity-crisis" as Algerians tend to speak French better than Arabic, that the Algerian(French) dialect is NOT understood by the Mashrikis, that many Algerians feel more Berber than Arab and more European than either Arab or African anyway, and so try to get as close "into" Europe as possible.
 
BarfBag
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:51 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 40):
First of all, I think that India has a very important role, possibly the leading one, in the Commonwealth anyway, with or without the Queen as nominal head, and with or without such "monarchical" gestures. BUT the Commonwealth basically IS an organisation of "Anglophone" countries.

I'm sure we probably have a leading role, whatever that implies, but what I'm saying is we aren't about to play it in anyone else's shadow. Even superficial token positions held by the British monarch are unacceptable; we earned our freedom from that very authority the hard way, and constituted a republic immediately to indicate we did not intend to maintain any constitutional ties. India even remained in the Commonwealth solely because the British hastily proclaimed the London Declaration in 1949, which was little more than a political rope trick to keep the Commonwealth from falling apart as several other nations followed India's lead in taking a republican model.

It may not mean anything to someone from Switzerland, but even the elimination of the symbolism matters to us. We aren't about to ignore that for the sake of leading what is anyway a lame-duck Anglophone body. India has never felt any ownership with English - we use it because it is convenient as a bridge language. But no one sees India as a promoter of Anglophone unity - neither us nor any Anglophone nation.
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:31 pm



Quoting BarfBag (Reply 41):
I'm sure we probably have a leading role, whatever that implies, but what I'm saying is we aren't about to play it in anyone else's shadow. Even superficial token positions held by the British monarch are unacceptable; we earned our freedom from that very authority the hard way, and constituted a republic immediately to indicate we did not intend to maintain any constitutional ties. India even remained in the Commonwealth solely because the British hastily proclaimed the London Declaration in 1949, which was little more than a political rope trick to keep the Commonwealth from falling apart as several other nations followed India's lead in taking a republican model.

It may not mean anything to someone from Switzerland, but even the elimination of the symbolism matters to us. We aren't about to ignore that for the sake of leading what is anyway a lame-duck Anglophone body. India has never felt any ownership with English - we use it because it is convenient as a bridge language. But no one sees India as a promoter of Anglophone unity - neither us nor any Anglophone nation.

= I have to agree. This is an extremely insightful analysis. Having worked in an international organization and having attended a Commonwealth meeting, I am always amused at the perception that India wants to play a pivotal role in the future of the Commonwealth. From my interactions, it seems that the Indians are (judgment reserved) far more pre-occupied in having a larger say at the UN and at the ADB. There seems to be a departure and a de-linking of Indian power from the acceptance of "leading" a irrelevant organization. Perhaps in its nascent stages of foreign policy objectives (circa 1960s and 1970s), a role in the NAM or Commonwealth would have made sense. Today, that stage has passed and you can see a very "real politik" approach to India's foreign policy. BarfBag excellently charactizes and sums it with "India has never felt any ownership with English - we use it because it is convenient as a bridge language. But no one sees India as a promoter of Anglophone unity - neither us nor any Anglophone nation."

An excellent article from Economist Asia: http://www.economist.com/daily/colum...displaystory.cfm?story_id=10166572

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 36):
Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 33):
= Do you think that a country dubbed by Newsweek as the most dangerous in the world (over Iraq and Afghanistan) would really care if cultural contacts between other Commonwealth members are stopped?

Here we go again. If you mean the President, the answer is a DEFINITE no, but if you mean normal people then the answer is Yes-sure. In other words, as said before, such steps would hit normal people but not the ruler. "the most dangerous in the world" is rather to be sorted into the headlines-category. As you for sure can travel around in cities like Karachi and Lahore and Rawalpindi, without actual fear, unless you are "exposed" (politician/rich/famous/etc) while you rather cannot do this in Baghdad.

= Please do enlighten me on how "normal people" in Pakistan would care with the current range of cultural sanctions imposed against the country. I am eager to learn real instances where the average Pakistani is truly going to be affected by the same.

In regards to your analysis of the safety of Pakistani cities, I did not feel safe traveling around any of the cities you mentioned. A lot of the diplomatic corp would agree. Moreover, its not my analysis to brand it as the "most dangerous place in the world." It is that of a respectable magazine such as Newsweek.

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
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viaggiare
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:58 am

In an interesting turn of events (and partly due to outside pressure) Musharraf will be giving up his role as military chief of staff today. He will, however, continue to wield extraordinary powers since the country is under de facto martial law.
Entre el fuerte y el débil, la libertad oprime. Sólo la ley libera.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 42):
"normal people" in Pakistan would care with the current range of cultural sanctions imposed against the country.

I regard artists of any kind and sportsmen as "normal" in so far as they are not politicians. No cultural sanctions have been imposed onto the country up to now, and even the ban by the commonwealth is not an expulsion but just a suspension
-

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 43):
the country is under de facto martial law

he only can get out of pressures if he finally terminates the martial law, as no real democratic elections can be done under martial law
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:14 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 44):
he only can get out of pressures if he finally terminates the martial law, as no real democratic elections can be done under martial law

= What kind of "real" democracy would happen then? Sharif and Bhutto playing it out? Only to be returned and "saved" to military rule by the next ambitious General. Why am I having dejavu all over again?

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:43 pm



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 45):
e only can get out of pressures if he finally terminates the martial law, as no real democratic elections can be done under martial law

= What kind of "real" democracy would happen then? Sharif and Bhutto playing it out? Only to be returned and "saved" to military rule by the next ambitious General. Why am I having dejavu all over again?

-
Well, you here give the answers to your question yourself. But I think Pakistan should be given a chance. Bhutto and Sharif have had time to reconsider what went wrong last time. So that, if the State President and the Prime Minister find a form of powersharing-cooperation, something positive may result.
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:02 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 46):
Well, you here give the answers to your question yourself. But I think Pakistan should be given a chance. Bhutto and Sharif have had time to reconsider what went wrong last time. So that, if the State President and the Prime Minister find a form of powersharing-cooperation, something positive may result.

= I was being rhetorical for a reason. I think its naive to think that they are school children who would reflect on their wayward mistakes ... "time to reconsider what went wrong last time". Anyways, I wish them well. As Tracy Chapman said, "starting from zero, you have nothing to lose".

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:15 am



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 47):
school children who would reflect on their wayward mistakes ...

also adults should try to analyse what has gone wrong, not only mistakes of themselves but also negative realities of any sort and integrate the results into action of the future. Very often, adverse things are simply the result of realities like weather, size of a cardbox, geometrics of a warehouse, etc, and if you take everything into consideration, you may proceed far better. That is known as "experience". Then, there are things which were NOT mistakes but can be done in a better and easier way. Why should Pakistani politicians not be able to digest experience ?  Wink  Wink
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Pakistan Barred From The Commonwealth

Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:03 pm

So Gen Mushy is finally Mr Mushy  Smile
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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