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Aaron747
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Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:30 am

Further proving what intelligent people already know: those can speak beyond talking points and are able to level with the public will never be our leaders. Successful politicians are people who were good on the playground but were never able to actually do anything substantial otherwise.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071125/...;_ylt=Al16yvhCZ1yFic797hbCZpSs0NUE

"The United States has been far too involved in sort of looking the other way, not only at the atrocities of human rights and violation of women," Huckabee said on CNN's "Late Edition."

"Every time we put our credit card in the gas pump, we're paying so that the Saudis get rich — filthy, obscenely rich, and that money then ends up going to funding madrassas," schools "that train the terrorists," said Huckabee. "America has allowed itself to become enslaved to Saudi oil. It's absurd. It's embarrassing."

Huckabee said "I would make the United States energy independent within 10 years and tell the Saudis they can keep their oil just like they can keep their sand, that we won't need either one of them."


JFK set the goal, and we got to the moon in six years. If the US wanted to tackle the energy issue and tell these governments where to go, it could. America can do anything it sets its mind to...unfortunately there's zero political will to get the job done this time around. The problem in it all is that we don't know these things about ourselves, but other countries do, and there's the foundation for the hypocrisy that keeps otherwise moderate people from wanting to be on our side. The Saudis don't even recognize Israel for crying out loud  Yeah sure
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Arrow
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:26 am

Just like most Americans, Huckabee doesn't know that most US oil imports come from Canada. Saudia Arabia is number two. Does his energy independence include from us? If so, he doesn't have a hope in hell of achieving his goal
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
baroque
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:40 am



Quoting Arrow (Reply 1):
Just like most Americans, Huckabee doesn't know that most US oil imports come from Canada. Saudia Arabia is number two. Does his energy independence include from us? If so, he doesn't have a hope in hell of achieving his goal

Crude oil imports to US Sept 2007 data
Thousands of barrels per DAY
CANADA 1,956
SAUDI ARABIA 1,441
MEXICO 1,293
VENEZUELA 1,146
NIGERIA 1,137
IRAQ 603
ANGOLA 578
ALGERIA 503

Let us see, the Canadians well they are Canadians!! The Mexicans are invading. Venezuela has Chavez. Nigeria is unstable, corrupt and does not like Miss World contests. Iraq is, well again Iraq. Angola, aren't they still Communist under Cuban influence. And Algeria, we know that is full of terrorists.

The dangers that beset Mr Huckabee are more than even he realises!!

Total petroleum imports shows Canada even further ahead.

Country Sep-07
CANADA 2,467
SAUDI ARABIA 1,560
MEXICO 1,429
VENEZUELA 1,325
NIGERIA 1,181
ALGERIA 701
IRAQ 603
ANGOLA 591
VIRGIN ISLANDS 381
RUSSIA 348
ECUADOR 239
BRAZIL 232
COLOMBIA 186
UNITED KINGDOM 185
KUWAIT 163

I suggest, Arrow, that you keep a sharp lookout along that parallel for signs of high heat flow indicating the start of a rifting episode to take you away from your neighbour. Some have longed for a continent of the USofA.

So 2.467*about 90 millions a day to Canada. Go the loonie!
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:43 am

I think you guys are missing his general point in that the money we pay for Saudi oil inevitably ends up funding things we absolutely need to be concerned about. Oil from Canada represents a larger overall share, but the Saudi component still represents a large enough figure overall that it can't be ignored, much less easily removed. Not to mention that the Canadian government and/or agents working on its behalf are not in the habit of sending money to Afghanistan and elsewhere to be used for fundamentalist education.
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flynavy
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:15 am

No doubt, Canada IS the America's number one source but ask your average Joe on the street who the top supplier of oil/petroleum to the United States is and I'll bet he'll reply with "Saudi Arabia."

Do I think we should import one Riyal of Saudi oil? Absolutely not. Why? For the same reasons Huckabee wants us free from Saudi oil.

Do I think "Energy Independence" is solely an American issue? No. It's a problem the entire world must solve together. It isn't "us versus them" (no pun intended). We all breathe the same air.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
"Every time we put our credit card in the gas pump, we're paying so that the Saudis get rich — filthy, obscenely rich, and that money then ends up going to funding madrassas," schools "that train the terrorists," said Huckabee. "America has allowed itself to become enslaved to Saudi oil. It's absurd. It's embarrassing."

 checkmark  I agree with him. It IS absurd and embarrassing.

 redflag  But funding madrassas? I'm not so sure about that.

Mike Huckabee is just trying to rally the Republican base.
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:29 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 4):
No doubt, Canada IS the America's number one source

Stand by for an imminent invasion of Canada, then.
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:43 pm

Even if the US could wean itself off Saudi oil, it will not make any difference to Saudi Arabia - China and India could easily fill the void left by the US.
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:56 pm

The USA is never going to be energy independent. Huckabee's comments have been said by many Presidential and other political candidates since the early 1970's to make them sound good to the masses. Saudi Arabia and too many of the countries we buy oil from are not, never will or often are not modern democracies, have horrible human rights policies and records we usually ignore and are defacto enemies of the USA.
All but a few Americans will not make the massive lifestyle and political changes, including driving by as much as 50%, and only driving cars that get 30+MPG city driving, fuel taxes that raise the price of gas to $5.00+/gallon, accept millions of power windmills, millions of acres of solar panels and/or make 80% or more of our electricity from nuke sources.
 
baroque
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:02 pm



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 6):
Even if the US could wean itself off Saudi oil, it will not make any difference to Saudi Arabia - China and India could easily fill the void left by the US.

Just so. Especially in a time of shortage, oil is pretty fungible.

I doubt if we were missing the point Aaron. Just Huckabee was not as far as I could see, proposing a method of reducing US oil consumption by, oh 30 to 40% to start to make a difference. I could suggest how, but I am not that brave (?or stupid)!!  covereyes 

Until he does that, he does not have a point IMHO. And no, corn sourced alcohol is not the solution.

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 4):
redflag But funding madrassas? I'm not so sure about that.

Not sure why the uncertainty on that, where the heck do you think they get the funds for madrassas? Or do you think Saudi supported madrassas are not all over the world a bit like a plague of locusts?
 
flynavy
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:19 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 5):
Stand by for an imminent invasion of Canada, then.

I wasn't suggesting we do that! I'm just aware of the actual numbers.  banghead 

Quoting Baroque (Reply 8):
Not sure why the uncertainty on that, where the heck do you think they get the funds for madrassas? Or do you think Saudi supported madrassas are not all over the world a bit like a plague of locusts?

I personally am not an expert. But if this is in fact the case it's all the more reason for us not to import their oil (i.e. a de-facto sanction on them). Perhaps India and China would fill in the gap, yes, but at least we'd be leading by example in terms of not supporting states who sponsor - albeit directly or indirectly - global terrorism.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 7):
The USA is never going to be energy independent.

Perhaps, perhaps not. But you essentially stated what I did - that Huckabee is just trying to rally the Republican base.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
baroque
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:27 pm



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 7):
All but a few Americans will not make the massive lifestyle and political changes, including driving by as much as 50%, and only driving cars that get 30+MPG city driving, fuel taxes that raise the price of gas to $5.00+/gallon, accept millions of power windmills, millions of acres of solar panels and/or make 80% or more of our electricity from nuke sources.

It was only possible to post if it came from a US flag member, so thanks LTBEWR.

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 9):
I personally am not an expert. But if this is in fact the case it's all the more reason for us not to import their oil (i.e. a de-facto sanction on them). Perhaps India and China would fill in the gap, yes, but at least we'd be leading by example in terms of not supporting states who sponsor - albeit directly or indirectly - global terrorism.

That would be a start, but they could use Indian or Chinese sourced currency to exactly the same effects. Maybe a bit of virtue, but not a lot of effect. So go the arms salesmen selling stuff to Saudi Arabia. The Saudis armed to the teeth with US, UK and French weaponry are far less dangerous than the products of the KSA sponsored madrassas! A bit "Irish" but true.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:43 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 4):
Do I think "Energy Independence" is solely an American issue? No. It's a problem the entire world must solve together.

It certainly must be addressed by everyone. The US though, particularly with the level of consumption encouraged by a largely suburban and auto-dependent lifestyle in the post WWII period, is in the best position to set standards and chart a new course toward energy solutions that will benefit the marketplace and eliminate the need for archaic resources that create undue political risk and strife.

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 4):
But funding madrassas? I'm not so sure about that.

It's well-known that a lot of Saudi money finds its way to fundamentalist Islam being taught elsewhere.

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 9):
Perhaps India and China would fill in the gap, yes, but at least we'd be leading by example in terms of not supporting states who sponsor - albeit directly or indirectly - global terrorism.

That's more of the point than anything.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 7):
All but a few Americans will not make the massive lifestyle and political changes, including driving by as much as 50%, and only driving cars that get 30+MPG city driving, fuel taxes that raise the price of gas to $5.00+/gallon, accept millions of power windmills, millions of acres of solar panels and/or make 80% or more of our electricity from nuke sources.

They said it wasn't possible to go to the moon either. We may well see the day where even the spineless politicos in Washington come to realize that the above and a better commitment to education are the only things that will enable us to retain our position at the top of the economic and political spheres.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
baroque
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:12 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 11):
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 7):
All but a few Americans will not make the massive lifestyle and political changes, including driving by as much as 50%, and only driving cars that get 30+MPG city driving, fuel taxes that raise the price of gas to $5.00+/gallon, accept millions of power windmills, millions of acres of solar panels and/or make 80% or more of our electricity from nuke sources.

They said it wasn't possible to go to the moon either. We may well see the day where even the spineless politicos in Washington come to realize that the above and a better commitment to education are the only things that will enable us to retain our position at the top of the economic and political spheres.

Come back Jimmy Carter, some of us forgive you, come to that some of us never blamed you in the first place, no matter, at last the 1978 show would be good in energy terms.
 
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:32 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 10):
The Saudis armed to the teeth with US, UK and French weaponry are far less dangerous than the products of the KSA sponsored madrassas!

Exactly! Similar thoughts were expressed in another thread here recently. Maybe it is better for the US to be "dependent" on Saudi oil and maintain relations with that country, because the realty of the alternative is, frankly, not very attractive.

Better the devil you know, etc.
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:41 pm

Even at $99 a barrel, oil is still a cheap source of energy. Granted everytime we fill up it certainly doesn't fell "cheap" but a lot of that is taxation, especially in Europe. Alternative technologies aren't all they're cracked up to be... solar is only about 14% efficient (luckily BP holds the patents on that!), a gallon of hydrogen is more expensive to produce than a gallon of petrol, you'd need to devote a country the size of France to grow enough bio fuels etc etc... Nuclear is probably the front runner, but people are hugely paranoid about it. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be looking at alternatives, but apart from a lot of hot air from politicians on the subject, below the surface the will isn't there as Aaron747 says. Maybe when oil is $200 a barrel we'll all get serious about real alternatives. Until then....
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:45 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 2):
IRAQ 603

what an ironic coincidence
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baroque
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:46 pm



Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 14):
. Maybe when oil is $200 a barrel we'll all get serious about real alternatives. Until then...

Very nice, in the sense of precise and accurate summary BHX. Losing the addiction to cheap fossil fuels is not going to be easy. If this is a peak oil effect, a couple of years should see if you are correct about when to get serious.
 
Arrow
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:45 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 4):
No doubt, Canada IS the America's number one source but ask your average Joe on the street who the top supplier of oil/petroleum to the United States is and I'll bet he'll reply with "Saudi Arabia."

And no one has yet mentioned natural gas or electricity. US gets about a third of its natural gas from Canada; not sure what the numbers are for electricity, but they are significant.

But you can't load electricity in a tanker, and while LNG is becoming a more attractive option for gas, it still has trouble competing on price with Canadian sources.

Energy independence for the US is possible -- but not without a huge price hike, and a much more committed approach to conservation. And think about this: if the US could completely back-out Canadian energy, Canada's economy would tank along with the high-flying loonie, and Canadians would no longer be able to afford to buy all that stuff they import from the US. Given that Canada is the largest export customer for 38 of the US states, that might be somewhat painful below the 49th parallel.

Energy is just one example of that xenophobic push down there to try and back out everything imported, with China at the top of the hate-list. Listen to Lou Dobbs nightly rant and you'll get the picture. But if Dobbs' point of view prevails, those other economies will also tank, and their capacity to buy stuff from the US will tank with it. A brave new world will emerge from that, and the US will no longer be the economic superpower it is now -- its market of 300 million just isn't big enough.

Be careful what you wish for ...
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Queso
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:03 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
From Japan

A quick question- Do you ever post any topics that are not negative toward the United States?
 
flynavy
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:04 pm

Quoting Arrow (Reply 17):
Be careful what you wish for ...

Wait just a damn minute - I never wished for any Canadian sanctions. And I'm certainly NOT a xenophobe as your comments seem to insinuate. If you'd read my post carefully you would realize that.

If Canada were a human rights violator, the no. 2 importer of oil/petroleum to the US, and had a legal system based on Sharia Law I'd be desiring sanctions against Canada as well. Obviously that isn't the case and I value the US' political and economic relationships with Canada.

But calm down - this thread isn't about Canada.

It isn't even about Xenophobia.

It's about the Saudis. Their human rights (or lack thereof) track record speaks for itself, not to mention their direct (and/or indirect) support for terrorism.

[Edited 2007-11-26 11:13:37]
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flynavy
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:10 pm



Quoting Queso (Reply 18):

I actually think this topic is fairly neutral. After all, his post is essentially just quoting what Mike Huckabee said anyway.
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CastleIsland
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:21 pm



Quoting Queso (Reply 18):
A quick question- Do you ever post any topics that are not negative toward the United States?

Aaron's wife is Japanese and they live there; as far as I can tell, he appreas to be native to the U.S., although I might be mistaken. Further, very little change ever occurred as a result of complacency. Criticism is not just a right, it's a responsibility.

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 20):
I actually think this topic is fairly neutral. After all, his post is essentially just quoting what Mike Huckabee said anyway.

Pretty much so, but even if he is on one side of the issue, if you think something needs grease, it ain't gonna happen if you don't bring it up.
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:38 pm

It would be nice.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
JFK set the goal, and we got to the moon in six years. If the US wanted to tackle the energy issue and tell these governments where to go, it could.

I agree. The problem is that most Americans don't want to give up their cheap lifestyle choices. i.e. gas guzzlers and 737 flights to Vegas every other month. It would take a federal law to impose everyone buying more expensive electric/hydro fuel cell vehicles.

On top of that oil produces more than just fuels. Plastics, chemicals, and a good amount of manmade materials use some form of petroleum in their composition. Not to mention the cargo ships, jets, and hundreds of thousand deisel powered trucks and trains holding our country together. There is no technology that is cheap enough to switch all of these vehicles.

As for jets, there is no other technology at this point. UHB jets, Easyjet's pusher engines, and efficiency will reduce the amount of fuel used, but I don't see a replacement for Jet fuel for a long time.

I do want to see this country independent from oil. It would be great if we didn't have to import any. I personally would change my lifestyle to help this happen, but I don't see too many others that would be willing to make any sacrifices.

I hope that he can prove me wrong.
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:05 am



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 7):
All but a few Americans will not make the massive lifestyle and political changes, including driving by as much as 50%, and only driving cars that get 30+MPG city driving, fuel taxes that raise the price of gas to $5.00+/gallon

Gas Tax, like all the other European states where gas is consistently over $5.5 per gallon, people will HAVE to get rid of their inefficient cars. I hope it happens one day, but I doubt it. The lack of public trasport infrastructure and our addiction to our vehicles is a barrier.

Quoting Queso (Reply 18):
Do you ever post any topics that are not negative toward the United States?

who cares, does it hurt your feelings?
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:06 am

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 22):
It would take a federal law to impose everyone buying more expensive electric/hydro fuel cell vehicles.

That's totally out of the question. If Washington would stop interfering with the public perception of the economy, we might just have a few necessary corrections and/or recessions that would solve this issue via the market. The problem is that we have an entire political class (both major parties) that has successfully molded a longstanding attitude that recessions are evil and to be avoided at all costs and that creates the absurd notion that we need more regulation to bring change to any kind of market problem.

Quoting Queso (Reply 18):
A quick question- Do you ever post any topics that are not negative toward the United States?

When the government starts doing its job better, I'll gladly post the good news.  

Otherwise there aren't many positive topics I could post that would be of much interest around here - I doubt anyone much cares for my feelings regarding the great national parks of the west and desert southwest, the appeal of small town amateur league baseball, or various tidbits on American urban architecture and design.

Now, let me turn it back around Queso: do you honestly want American money paying for the continuation of the Saudi brand of fundamentalist Islam?

[Edited 2007-11-26 17:07:49]
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baroque
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:14 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 24):
Now, let me turn it back around Queso: do you honestly want American money paying for the continuation of the Saudi brand of fundamentalist Islam?

Fair return of "serve".

Ping, PONG, any more ping?
 
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:36 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 24):
I doubt anyone much cares for my feelings regarding the great national parks of the west and desert southwest, the appeal of small town amateur league baseball, or various tidbits on American urban architecture and design.

 rotfl  , What abour our freedoms?  Wink

IMO, major lifestyle changes need to be made by the average American to offset the unbelivable demand for Crude Oil.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
baroque
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:51 am



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 26):
What about our freedoms?

Which ones would they be LAX?

Just kidding folk!! Put it down to the freedom of not being ruled in a couple of days by the Man of Steel and the Deputy Sheriff.
 
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:04 am



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 7):
Huckabee's comments have been said by many Presidential and other political candidates since the early 1970's to make them sound good to the masses.

And just like them, if elected, he'll change his tune.
Clinton said we needed to get tough on China's human rights violations, but he changed his tune once he was elected.

What we need to do is start Gasifying Coal. We do that, and our golden road to energy independence begins.
Livin' on Reds, Vitamin C, and Cocaine
 
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:35 am



Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 28):
And just like them, if elected, he'll change his tune.
Clinton said we needed to get tough on China's human rights violations, but he changed his tune once he was elected

Whatever happened to accountability. I dont think too many people would disagree if we started imprisoning politicans for lying.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
baroque
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:07 am



Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 28):
What we need to do is start Gasifying Coal. We do that, and our golden road to energy independence begins.

I can do that now if you really wish, but how much are you willing to pay?

Trouble is that even at USD100 a barrel, crude oil is still cheaper than taking coal and gasifying it. Again go back to Jimmy Carter, he had major SNG (synthetic natural gas) projects. All abandoned for cost reasons by RR at a time when crude was still at USD 33 a barrel (= about 100 now) and before it fell to USD8.

All it takes is financial guts and you could do almost anything. However, as has been pointed out, the cheapest thing to do is to reduce use of petroleum by raising taxes. About as popular as a skunk, but it would be cheaper than most other suggestions, especially including corn based alcohol. But heck, the current system makes for some very rich and happy farmers out in Iowa or wherever.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:10 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 25):
Ping, PONG, any more ping?

I'm not going to hold my breath for Queso's answer. Paging Doctor Zhivago...
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:34 pm



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 23):
Gas Tax, like all the other European states where gas is consistently over $5.5 per gallon, people will HAVE to get rid of their inefficient cars. I hope it happens one day, but I doubt it.

Classic leftist comment. Tax Americans into submission. Think before you speak.
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Aaron747
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RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:41 pm



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 23):
Gas Tax, like all the other European states where gas is consistently over $5.5 per gallon, people will HAVE to get rid of their inefficient cars. I hope it happens one day, but I doubt it. The lack of public trasport infrastructure and our addiction to our vehicles is a barrier.

Just so you know...gas is around $5.40 in my part of Japan. We have the world's best rail network in terms of access per capita and nearly 70% of the commute trips in my metropolitan area are by train. Nevertheless, there's an entire generation of 20-somethings who live with their parents, buy expensive cars, and drive just about everywhere other than work. I have two supermarkets and every service under the sun within five blocks' walking distance of my apartment, and I still see these idiots driving everywhere. It's not just the infrastructure or overall society - it also comes down to individual attitude and this recent generation is full of "I don't give a $#@&".
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Queso
Posts: 3109
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:28 pm

RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:04 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 24):
Now, let me turn it back around Queso: do you honestly want American money paying for the continuation of the Saudi brand of fundamentalist Islam?

Hell no!

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 31):
I'm not going to hold my breath for Queso's answer.

Oh ye of little faith!

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 24):
Otherwise there aren't many positive topics I could post that would be of much interest around here - I doubt anyone much cares for my feelings regarding the great national parks of the west and desert southwest, the appeal of small town amateur league baseball, or various tidbits on American urban architecture and design.

You might be surprised, I'd enjoy a discussion about National Parks (especially of the west and desert southwest) and I don't know much about architecture but I'd read what other people discuss about it and might ask a few questions. I've always appreciated the architecture of old buildings like banks, hotels, and jails.
 
Arrow
Posts: 2325
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:44 am

RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:12 pm



Quoting FLYB6JETS (Reply 32):
Classic leftist comment. Tax Americans into submission. Think before you speak.


The alternative, of course, is for you to consume yourselves into submission. As a believer in free markets, I'm tempted to say 'go for it,' but we're talking about a global resource here and our (North America, that is) per capita energy consumption needs to come down drastically before the rest of the world gangs up on us and forces the issue. To reduce this issue to a leftie vs. rightie political polemic seriously diminishes the importance of getting it right.

A carbon tax is without a doubt the most even, fairest method of encouraging energy conservation while allowing freedom of choice to continue. Want to keep the Hummer on the road? Fine, just pay for it. Obviously, $100/bbl hasn't quite got the message across yet, so a hefty tax on top of that would be most helpful.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 30):
Trouble is that even at USD100 a barrel, crude oil is still cheaper than taking coal and gasifying it.

Or liquefying it and turning it into diesel. All these coal conversion ideas have been around for decades thanks to Fischer and Tropsche who got the ball rolling in the 1920s. But they all involve spending more money -- and just as Americans (and Canadians) won't pay more to have their flat screen TVs manufactured domestically, they won't pay more for coal-based diesel or gas either. Bring on the tax.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
FLYB6JETS
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:05 am

RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:23 pm



Quoting Arrow (Reply 35):
so a hefty tax on top of that would be most helpful.

It is that mindset that is sending this country down the toilet. Tax people until they can't afford to live. What does it solve? Nothing. Explain how your theory of taxing the hell out of me is going to solve the energy crisis. And don't just say it is going to cause people to change their lifestyles, because unless you can prove it, I don't for a split second believe people will change.
"If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going!"
 
Arrow
Posts: 2325
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:44 am

RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:41 pm



Quoting FLYB6JETS (Reply 36):
Explain how your theory of taxing the hell out of me is going to solve the energy crisis.

There's nothing magic about it. It will force you to think about how much money you are prepared to spend on a particular activity -- in this case consuming all forms of energy. Maybe you'll buy a smaller car, maybe you'll set the house thermostat at 60 instead of 72 and open the windows in the summer, maybe you'll walk to the store because it's costing you $100 a week to fill the gas tank. The scope for making changes is almost limitless, but without an incentive, it probably won't happen. And there's certainly lots of proof of that, particularly in North America

It's no accident that the per-capita energy consumption in the free world is highest where the price of energy is the lowest -- and nowhere is it lower than in the U.S. Canada is a close second.

Quoting FLYB6JETS (Reply 36):
I don't for a split second believe people will change.

Yes they will, because they would be stupid not to. And if you are too stupid to change? Well, if you're rich it shouldn't pose a problem.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
Toast
Posts: 1249
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:04 am

RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:47 pm



Quoting FLYB6JETS (Reply 36):
Tax people until they can't afford to live.

Would doubling the price of fuel in the US lead you to bankruptcy? I'm sorry to hear that...  duck 

Quoting FLYB6JETS (Reply 36):
And don't just say it is going to cause people to change their lifestyles, because unless you can prove it, I don't for a split second believe people will change.

It works, at least on people who can count and think rationally. Example: I wouldn't mind owning a car. But fuel is so expensive in Belgium, and taxes so absurdly high, that it just isn't worth it. Taxes, insurance and basic maintenance of a car would mean for me an entire monthly salary down the drain. Add the cost of acquisition/credit, a GPS device, and fuel, and you find yourself working two months a year just to feed your stupid car. Now a yearly ticket for all public transportation in BRU is 400 euro and takes exactly one minute to renew. Add the occasional train trip, taxi or car rental when really necessary, and all my ground transportation needs are covered with less than 1 grand per year.

Guess what decision I made.

If gas prices and taxes here were as low as in the US, I would very likely drive. But even then it would never, ever be an SUV but a small diesel. As it is, I have absolutely no economic justification for a car, so I don't drive one. Maybe it's just me, but I think it's just common sense.
Shit Piss Fuck Cunt Cocksucker Motherfucker Tits
 
FLYB6JETS
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:05 am

RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:54 pm



Quoting Toast (Reply 38):
Now a yearly ticket for all public transportation in BRU is 400 euro and takes exactly one minute to renew. Add the occasional train trip, taxi or car rental when really necessary, and all my ground transportation needs are covered with less than 1 grand per year.

I am all for mass public trasnportation. I hate driving because it seems the majority of people on the roads are morons who shouldn't be driving anyway. But the point is, until we have a system like that in the US, which doesn't seem to be much of a reality, you can't tax the crap out of gas and not expect people and the economy to suffer consequences. If and when the time comes that we have a mass transit system that can get me from point a to point b safely, and reliably, then sure tax the hell out of it. Raise it to 50 bucks a gallon. Problem is, the way this govt works, a system like that is never going to happen.
"If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going!"
 
Toast
Posts: 1249
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:04 am

RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:15 pm



Quoting FLYB6JETS (Reply 39):
until we have a system like that in the US, which doesn't seem to be much of a reality, you can't tax the crap out of gas and not expect people and the economy to suffer consequences.

Sure, mass transit may be inadequate in many places in the US, but it doesn't explain why so many people drive huge, gas-guzzling cars. Of course you need a car if you have no access to good public transportation. But a Fiat Panda can move you from point to point just as well as an SUV. The vast majority of people don't need big and powerful cars for their suburban home-mall-school escapades. Unfortunately, you can't show off with a Fiat, and some may even question your manhood and/or patriotism if you drive one. A friend of mine is deeply in debt, and he could easily get rid of it in one day if he swapped his huge Land Rover Inyourface Turbo Mega 26-cylinder monster for a normal car. But he won't. He's paying a huge price for boosting his self-esteem with an inordinately expensive toy. It's that kind of mentality that needs to go away. In the US and in all other affluent countries. Maybe then will we waste less.
Shit Piss Fuck Cunt Cocksucker Motherfucker Tits
 
LAXspotter
Posts: 3227
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:16 pm

RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:22 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 33):
gas is around $5.40 in my part of Japan

no surprise, still lower than the Netherlands tho. BTW, all highways are toll right?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 33):
have the world's best rail network in terms of access per capita and nearly 70% of the commute trips in my metropolitan area are by train

I agree, its impressive.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 33):
it also comes down to individual attitude and this recent generation is full of "I don't give a $#@&".

agreed

Quoting Arrow (Reply 35):
Obviously, $100/bbl hasn't quite got the message

soon it will. In the US, even the poorest and students drive , there is public transportation even in a place where I live which has about 60,000 people. High gas prices will change attitudes.

Quoting FLYB6JETS (Reply 36):
Tax people until they can't afford to live

no, driving is not a 100% necessity. If we get a large percentage of people to rethink the cars that they're buying, the amount theyre driving, and the practicality of their reasons for driving, it will be a good change.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 37):
in this case consuming all forms of energy. Maybe you'll buy a smaller car, maybe you'll set the house thermostat at 60 instead of 72 and open the windows in the summer, maybe you'll walk to the store because it's costing you $100 a week to fill the gas tank

precisely.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
FLYB6JETS
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:05 am

RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:27 pm



Quoting Toast (Reply 40):
The vast majority of people don't need big and powerful cars for their suburban home-mall-school escapades.

I agree 100%. Would I love to have a big expensive SUV? Sure. But I don't because I don't need it. My Pontiac Vibe gets me from point a to point b just as reliably and safe as an SUV would and at a fraction of the price. I agree with you that it is unfortunately all about image for people today. That however, is another topic for another day.

Quoting Toast (Reply 40):
It's that kind of mentality that needs to go away.

Again, I agree with you. But in leiu of taxing gas for everyone, I am more in favor of taxing people that chose to buy the big SUV's as opposed to taxing people who take the time to research and buy a fuel efficient car. And, I will be the first to admit that I have no idea how you would create a tax that would be geared towards people who chose to drive inefficient cars. It's like it used to be in school. Someone would constantly do something and be warned and warned and warned and then when the teacher had had enough, the whole class would get punished for a single persons actions.

And a sidenote - Mark it down that I actually agreed with you on 2 different points in the same post. Crazy world we live in  smile 
"If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going!"
 
LAXspotter
Posts: 3227
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:16 pm

RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:30 pm



Quoting FLYB6JETS (Reply 42):
Would I love to have a big expensive SUV? Sure. But I don't because I don't need it

well it seems you disagree with the choices that a lot of people are making out there, we just dont agree on how to solve this problem.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
FLYB6JETS
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:05 am

RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:33 pm



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 43):
well it seems you disagree with the choices that a lot of people are making out there, we just dont agree on how to solve this problem.

I will drink to that.  coffee  (Couldn't find a frosty mug smilie, sorry)
"If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going!"
 
Toast
Posts: 1249
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:04 am

RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:39 pm



Quoting FLYB6JETS (Reply 42):
But in leiu of taxing gas for everyone, I am more in favor of taxing people that chose to buy the big SUV's as opposed to taxing people who take the time to research and buy a fuel efficient car.

A good option as well, probably better than taxing gas itself.

Quoting FLYB6JETS (Reply 42):
I have no idea how you would create a tax that would be geared towards people who chose to drive inefficient cars.

Believe me, politicians know every trick in the book how to tax stuff.  Smile Just create a tax for cars over a certain horse power and that's it. It's as easily taxable as any other legal but undesirable products like tobacco or alcohol.

Quoting FLYB6JETS (Reply 42):
Mark it down that I actually agreed with you on 2 different points in the same post. Crazy world we live in

Astonishing indeed Big grin I honestly don't know who you are and whether we've ever exchanged opinions, but I take from your post you normally hate my guts.  Smile
Shit Piss Fuck Cunt Cocksucker Motherfucker Tits
 
FLYB6JETS
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:05 am

RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:43 pm



Quoting Toast (Reply 45):
honestly don't know who you are and whether we've ever exchanged opinions, but I take from your post you normally hate my guts.

I think we have quipped a few times, mostly under my old name, Jetjock22. We got into it over something that had to do with history and WW2 or something like that.
"If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going!"
 
Toast
Posts: 1249
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:04 am

RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:56 pm



Quoting FLYB6JETS (Reply 46):
I think we have quipped a few times, mostly under my old name, Jetjock22.

Ah, so you're that asshole! Big grin  Wink Still can't remember, but I do realize my opinions on some subjects may be controversial.  Smile
Shit Piss Fuck Cunt Cocksucker Motherfucker Tits
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Huckabee: US "Enslaved" To Saudi Oil

Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:55 am



Quoting FLYB6JETS (Reply 36):
Quoting Arrow (Reply 35):
so a hefty tax on top of that would be most helpful.

It is that mindset that is sending this country down the toilet. Tax people until they can't afford to live. What does it solve? Nothing. Explain how your theory of taxing the hell out of me is going to solve the energy crisis. And don't just say it is going to cause people to change their lifestyles, because unless you can prove it, I don't for a split second believe people will change.

Part of the answer from:

Quoting Arrow (Reply 37):
Arrow

some from Toast, but additionally, explain how your theory of wasting as much as using a finite resource is going to solve any problem at all, other than keeping the status quo for a bit longer.

It was obvious to some like King Hubbert in the mid 50s that "the American way of life" could not be sustained indefinitely. Just because with a hugely distorted system it is still staggering along does not mean that you will not have to join most of the world in taxing fuel use at higher levels.

Try doing it before your external debt levels get to an even worse state.

It will have to happen in Australia too, and while we do tax at a much higher rate than the US, we would be better off if those taxes were doubled rather than reduced as Family First is warbling on about.

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