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Aaron747
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Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:29 am

Good on the President - providing opportunities for these discussions in a facilitation role is always a good thing, and sheds necessary light on which governments are committed to advancing peace in the region and which aren't.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071127/pl_nm/palestinians_israel_dc

President George W. Bush launched a U.S. drive to create a Palestinian state on Monday, with Israelis and Palestinians nearing an agreement to address the toughest issues of their decades-old conflict.

...

"We've come together this week because we share a common goal -- two democratic states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security," Bush said at a State Department dinner for participants in Tuesday's international conference near Washington.

"Achieving this goal requires difficult compromises," he insisted.

The talks could jumpstart a long-dormant peace process, but no one predicts a swift breakthrough in a conflict that has outlasted many a U.S. president and Middle Eastern leader.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, putting her credibility on the line, assembled representatives from more than 40 countries, many driven by a desire to prevent Iran from becoming a dominant -- and nuclear -- Middle East power.


Of course this is really Condi's deal and the State Department's overarching role, but it's a rare show of good sense regarding the ME for the PotUS to be lending his hand and he should be commended for it.

Abbas in June lost control of Gaza to Hamas Islamists, who were not invited to Annapolis and have criticized it.

In Jerusalem's walled Old City, at least 15,000 Israelis opposed to this week's talks gathered at the Western Wall to pray and protest against the Annapolis meeting.

Saudi Arabia's participation was seen as a diplomatic coup for Bush, but the kingdom has made clear there will be no handshakes with Israeli officials. "We are not here for theater," Faisal told reporters.

Asked about a possible snub, Olmert said, "I won't extend my hand to whoever isn't ready to shake the hand of the people of Israel. But I am happy he is here."


Curious that the Saudis and Syria send anyone at all when they don't even recognize Israel  Yeah sure Theater or not, this is another chance for all to recognize that the Saudis are full of double talk and the current leadership only stands to benefit from continued strife in the region.  crazy 

Also well and clear that more needs to be done to illegitimize the Zionists. There were protests today against Olmert in Washington as well. I think we all remember what happened to the last Israeli leader who expressed commitment to a two-state solution.

"All politicians in the world are aware that this conference is doomed to failure," Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said a televised speech in Tehran.

And all concerned about this issue are aware that nothing will ever be accomplished without having these talks repeatedly without fail. Bullets and blood certainly won't be part of any lasting solution. Thanks for your non-contribution  Yeah sure
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allstarflyer
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:09 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Of course this is really Condi's deal and the State Department's overarching role, but it's a rare show of good sense regarding the ME for the PotUS to be lending his hand and he should be commended for it.

I think Sec. Rice's best success story is going to be dealing with N. Korea about their nukes. Even though the Israelis and their neighbors have been relatively quiet for a little while, I don't think Rice will have much success achieving any notable compromise.
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tootallsd
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:31 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Good on the President - providing opportunities for these discussions in a facilitation role is always a good thing, and sheds necessary light on which governments are committed to advancing peace in the region and which aren't.

Yeah good for Georgie Boy. To me it seems like about seven years late. I remember his first year in office, well the year up to 9/11, when I was 1) outspoken that the USA didn't have a role making peace anywhere and 2) showing such a pro-Israel stance that it would make Kissinger blush.

To me this is all about trying to fish some slivers of 'legacy' after years of the Iraq debacle.

And the real issue has always been at the other end of the axis of evil -- and there he didn't seem to have the stuff to take on NK.
 
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:29 am



Quoting Tootallsd (Reply 2):
and there he didn't seem to have the stuff to take on NK.

which is probably the representation of all the trangressions of human rights only behind the government of Sudan neither of which this nation has committed anything much to. There are a lot more people in the "need" of freedom and if the US is going to be the world's police it has to go ahead and take action.

Just wondering, is it possible for Israel to Abandon the essetially Illegal settlements in the West Bank? or is it just a false dream on my part after the world saw the "horrors" of removing settlers from Gaza  Yeah sure
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
dl021
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:48 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Good on the President - providing opportunities for these discussions in a facilitation role is always a good thing, and sheds necessary light on which governments are committed to advancing peace in the region and which aren't.

I agree...it's something worth doing and by publicly inviting and involving all the sides it makes it clear which nations desire to be part of a process.
It's no guarantee, but talking is better than fighting in this case.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 3):
is it possible for Israel to Abandon the essetially Illegal settlements in the West Bank?

I should think so if the Palestineans manage to come to terms with the continued existence of Israel and it's long term future. Ideally the settlers would be offered the opportunity to stay and be productive members of that society. Make it economic rather than religious and it makes things much clearer and more logical.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 3):
is it just a false dream on my part after the world saw the "horrors" of removing settlers from Gaza

It could be real trouble.
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AGM100
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:25 pm

Although I am glad they are having the summit ... I still cant get around ...

" Peace for us means the destruction of Israel ... a war that will lasts for generations to come"

" Victory for us means the Palestinian flag flying over Jerusalem..and all of Palestine"

Fatah founder ... Yasser Arafat .


Palestine has its place in the identity of all Muslims .... having the Jews in occupation is just something that they will never accept... never .

Quoting Tootallsd (Reply 2):
To me this is all about trying to fish some slivers of 'legacy' after years of the Iraq debacle

Oh you have it all figured out dont you ? thats apparent. SSGT Maupin did not die for a debacle you fool.. apologize for him. Your opinion is that ,,yours ,..keep it.
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bravo45
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:35 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 5):
" Victory for us means the Palestinian flag flying over Jerusalem..and all of Palestine"

Jerusalem; Occupied Palestinian Territory. I wrote that in caps because thats how the the UN, besides others see it.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 5):
Palestine has its place in the identity of all Muslims

And whats your problem with that???

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 5):
having the Jews in occupation is just something that they will never accept... never .

What a blatantly discriminating statement in a rubbish post. NO occupation should EVER be accepted. No reason for the word 'Jew' there.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 3):
Just wondering, is it possible for Israel to Abandon the essetially Illegal settlements in the West Bank? or is it just a false dream on my part after the world saw the "horrors" of removing settlers from Gaza

The 'horrors' were seen not because settlements were reduced, they were just moved. See the data of that year, Israel ended up gaining more land that they gave up. It was consolidation, they moved the settlements closer.
All in all what you brought up is at the core of the issue along with refugees and occupation. Don't expect any of those issues to be brought up. Am I being pessimistic?? Maybe. But until something real comes out of this, I will remain that way. The only possible hope was one statement from Olmert regarding Israeli willingness to talk on key issues, and he mentioned Jerusalem. If nothing is built on that, than the only thing to be gained will be the weight of the delegates by eating the dinners at the conference.

There will be no peace without justice, IMO.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 1):
Even though the Israelis and their neighbors have been relatively quiet for a little while

Quiet!! Yeah since the Palestinians don't count for anything, I don't recall any Israeli death for a while. As for the Palestinians I think there were air raids just this week? And see the websites of the human rights organisations and you will find stuff happening daily including settlement expansion, building of the apartheid wall etc. But yes its been quiet even more so in Gaza, there is no power.
 
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:57 pm



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 6):
No reason for the word 'Jew' there.

OK OK,, Take the word Jew out ... add Israeli. Hamas has already stated, confirmed my point this week... so it kinda takes the rubbish out of my post... Or at least validates the rubbish.

Sorry Bravo .. I just dont see Peace happening without a complete removal of Israel. I think that their will always be elements their that will never accept coexistence. And this applies to both sides unfortunately. I was just in Israel 2 moths ago , and I spoke with a few young Israelis who sounded pretty hateful of the Palestinians and Hezbollah. I was uncomfortable with some of their comments , but I guess its the sad effect of being raised their.
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bravo45
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:15 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 7):

This post I can agree with more. Sorry for being as pointy as I was. I'll post again in a few hours time, I was about to leave when I saw your reply.
 
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:25 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 4):
Make it economic rather than religious and it makes things much clearer and more logical.

Some of those settlers are religious fanatics who wont move till they die, they are convinced its God's divine plan. Problems ahead. Not to mention, I believe there are over 300,000 Israelis in Palestinian territories.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 6):
There will be no peace without justice, IMO.

True
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
dl021
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:58 pm



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 6):
There will be no peace without justice, IMO.

And there's the problem. Everyone has a different idea of justice and want their revenge/satisfaction prior to moving on.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 9):
Some of those settlers are religious fanatics who wont move till they die

That's what I meant when I said problems.
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gunsontheroof
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:09 pm

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 6):

What a blatantly discriminating statement in a rubbish post. NO occupation should EVER be accepted. No reason for the word 'Jew' there.

Spot on. People hold back no punches when it comes to the Palestinians, but there are few here who wouldn't resist a comparable occupation of their own homelands.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 6):
The 'horrors' were seen not because settlements were reduced, they were just moved. See the data of that year, Israel ended up gaining more land that they gave up. It was consolidation, they moved the settlements closer.
All in all what you brought up is at the core of the issue along with refugees and occupation. Don't expect any of those issues to be brought up.

I'm not optimistic either--George Bush talking about Middle East "peace" would be incredibly comical if the realities of the current situation in that region weren't so crushingly depressing. The U.S. government likes to talk about "no new settlements," but it's never done anything about them. The military aid keeps coming and the situation continues to deteriorate. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the result of this conference was a repeat of Camp David, with the Palestinians rejecting a non-contiguous, settlement-perforated "state" with little control of their resources/territory. Of course, they will be soundly lambasted as being against peace for doing so once again. I listened to Bush's speech on this earlier this morning--virtually every call he made for concessions was for Palestinian concessions. No abandonment of Israeli settlements, no end to Palestinian bantustans. I can already see where this is going.

[Edited 2007-11-27 14:12:40]
 
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:16 pm



Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 11):
repeat of Camp David, with the Palestinians rejecting a non-contiguous, settlement-perforated "state" with little control of their resources/territory. Of course, they will be soundly lambasted as being against peace for doing so once again

precisely.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 11):
No abandonment of Israeli settlements

Palestine can never be "free" with these settlements. That is Israel's way of asserting their dominance.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
AGM100
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:27 pm



Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 11):
Spot on. People hold back no punches when it comes to the Palestinians

I have lived their ,, I have seen Jews get along with Arabs (thats what we called them.) . I have seen Israeli society which included Arab Israeli citizens . I have been to weddings where Arabs and Jews drank together and laughed about each other. I have not seen this same openness in a Fatah / Hamas / Islamic Jihad society .. have you. ?

I believe that Israelis and Palestinians could have lived together in greater Palestinian state. My hope of that ever happening now is dim. Both sides deserve blame for it , but I believe that the Israelis were more willing than the other side . JMHO
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gunsontheroof
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:34 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 13):

I have lived their ,, I have seen Jews get along with Arabs (thats what we called them.) . I have seen Israeli society which included Arab Israeli citizens . I have been to weddings where Arabs and Jews drank together and laughed about each other. I have not seen this same openness in a Fatah / Hamas / Islamic Jihad society .. have you. ?

I've never lived there, but I'm well aware that there are people on both sides who wish to live in harmony with one another and that there are robust peace movements and cooperation groups in the region whose efforts for peace should be lauded. I don't see the same openness in Fatah/Hamas, but the power of those groups can be directly traced to Palestinian disgust with the policies of the hyper-Zionist regimes that have occupied Tel-Aviv in recent history--regimes who I can assure you are just as unopen to a single Israeli-Palestinian state as Fatah and Hamas are.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 13):
I believe that Israelis and Palestinians could have lived together in greater Palestinian state.

As do I. Unfortunately, Zionist policies in the region (and the Islamic blowback they have spawned) have lead us to a point where many, if not most Palestinians and Israelis are so frustrated and angry with the situation there that this option is unlikely to be entertained. The roots of the Israeli state lie in Zionism, and Zionism leaves no room for a unified Israeli-Palestinian state.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:49 pm



Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 14):
The roots of the Israeli state lie in Zionism, and Zionism leaves no room for a unified Israeli-Palestinian state.



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 6):
The only possible hope was one statement from Olmert regarding Israeli willingness to talk on key issues, and he mentioned Jerusalem

Hence a legitimate concern that if Olmert goes very far with any kind of overtures he will meet Rabin's fate.
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AGM100
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:18 pm



Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 14):
Palestinian disgust with the policies of the hyper-Zionist regimes that have occupied Tel-Aviv in recent history--regimes who I can assure you are just as unopen to a single Israeli-Palestinian state as Fatah and Hamas are.

At this point you may be correct , these are people born of war. These are baby boomers who grew up fighting for their homes. I once road on tractors in the Kibbutz that needed armor plating because Palestinian sappers would hang grenades from tomato plants at night. Then during the next day Palestinian would come and buy or trade for the food grown on the once barren land. The land once good for maybe goat grazing if the rains came now fed thousands of people Jews, Muslims alike.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 14):
The roots of the Israeli state lie in Zionism, and Zionism leaves no room for a unified Israeli-Palestinian state.



Zionism created in the ovens of Europe maybe. But they fought for their lands in Israel , and won. The Arabs have tried and tried to kill them and push them into the sea ... yet you blame all of this on one side. Why ? Injustices ? Its to complicated for that mere idea .
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LAXspotter
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:44 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):
Zionism created in the ovens of Europe maybe

Read up. Zionism started in in the 1880's with Herzl not in response to any actions by the Third Reich.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:59 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):

At this point you may be correct , these are people born of war. These are baby boomers who grew up fighting for their homes.

A truth that no doubt exacerbates the tensions, but they're also people indentured to ideology. Just listen to any interview with a settler in occupied Palestine--they don't care how bad it's getting for the Palestinians there, they're absolutely convinced they're justified in taking the land.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):
The land once good for maybe goat grazing if the rains came now fed thousands of people Jews, Muslims alike.

Yes--because Israel is undertaking unsustainable water use practices in a region with very little in the way of water resources. Control over aquifers alone was probably enough for Arafat to reject Israel's "generous" offer of a Palestinian state back at Camp David, and it's quite likely that as time goes on, control over water in that area is going to lead to even more violence. This whole romantic notion of Israel "making the desert bloom" gets old pretty quickly.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):

Zionism created in the ovens of Europe maybe.

What LAXspotter said.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):
But they fought for their lands in Israel , and won.

"Their" lands in Israel. Sure. I'm not going to challenge the holiness of Jerusalem or the region, but we all know who was living on those lands pre-1948. I absolutely refuse to believe that the establishment of a Zionist state on "empty land" (where have we heard that before?) was the only (let alone best) way to establish a large Jewish community in the holy land.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):
The Arabs have tried and tried to kill them and push them into the sea ... yet you blame all of this on one side.

I don't condone violence on either side, but Israel has sown the overwhelming majority of the aggression in this conflict. The proof of this is so abundant that I don't feel like I should have to repeat it here, but I'll provide some clarification shortly.
 
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:07 am



Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 18):
a Zionist state on "empty land" (where have we heard that before?)

The myth further extended by the BS movement of the Religious Right's unwavering support for Zionism leaving their own Christian brothers and Sisters within Palestine to Perish, or do they not know that there are Palestinian Christians.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:10 am



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 6):
Yeah since the Palestinians don't count for anything, I don't recall any Israeli death for a while.

Some are still thinking that somehow a death for a death is going to make things right in this world? Childish! It would seem that most of the recent deaths of Palestinians are at the hands of foreign governments fighting them in refugee camps, not by the Israeli's.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 6):
What a blatantly discriminating statement in a rubbish post. NO occupation should EVER be accepted. No reason for the word 'Jew' there.

A very broad and ambiguous statement! Perfect rhetoric of a politician. You must change careers. So, in practice we are all on "occupied" land. Aussies in Australia, whites in SA, all americans in the US, etc. etc. etc. I believe that this was already discussed ad nasueam this week. Perhaps we should all pack up and move to Antartica. Hopefully the penguins won't be able to import any C4!

These issues need to be looked at with pragmatism and compassion. Not with emotion and reaction.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):
But they fought for their lands in Israel , and won. The Arabs have tried and tried to kill them and push them into the sea ... yet you blame all of this on one side. Why ? Injustices ? Its to complicated for that mere idea .

Absolutely. Zionism has its own problems of racism and fanaticism but zionism is not to blame! Einstein was a zionist. I don't see how some on here can claim that all zionists are coldhearted land grabbing racists. Zionism is a movement for a Jewish state. That is all. Most zionists do no agree with the illegal settlers or for the expansion of Israel.

Much like most muslims don't hope for the destruction of Israel? I don't know.

It is a complicated issue and the people who ask for destruction of Israel have always been quick to make zionists scapegoats as the origin of evil in the world.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 18):
Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):

Zionism created in the ovens of Europe maybe.

What LAXspotter said.

Very true. But keep in mind that WWII is what created the mass exodus and also inclined Israel to declare itself.

After the war in 1967 the land that was gained was used as a buffer against further attacks. The Sinai Peninsula previously had UN troops to act as a buffer zone until they were kicked out by Egypt. Sinai and the Gaza strip was a new buffer zone in case there were further incursions by Egypt. It was necessary for the defense of Israel.

In order to allow a defense of the land without a huge military presence, Israel allowed settlers in to some parts. It would not have stopped an all out attack, but it would have clearly slowed down forces to give enough time for the IDF to mount a potent counter-attack. This is the part that is history.

That brings us today. I do not believe that there will be an attack by Egypt anymore. Israel has clearly been giving large portions of the land back to the palestinians. In fact Hamas has taken control of some of the areas with no Israeli presence. Israel has been releasing the prisoners that many opposition groups have been asking them to do for a long time. Israel has recently (against the exhortion of the IDF leaders) allowed supplying the Palestinian government with troop carriers and Russian weapons. Israel has also allowed Gaza exporting of agricultural crops again. Israel has recently made strong statements concerning the illegal settlers.

The talks are expected to give half of Jerusalem to the Palestinians as well as large sections of land. The Israeli's are also expected to give concessions on controlling any new settlements and bringing some back under control.

It would seem that Israel has been making large strides towards heralding peace in the ME. All they are asking for is peace and recognition of Isreal.

I actually think that the talks will be successful in terms of agreements (much like Camp David). However, I am concerned that the actions after will be different than the agreement (much like Camp David).

I seriously doubt the intentions of most of the Islamic countries to follow the course of an agreement brought about by Mr. Abbas, who is seen as a pawn of the "Zionists and Americans" by most Arabs and muslims. Perhaps he is at that. But if his intent is for peace in the area and to give Palestinians the land and respect from Israel that they deserve, I think that most Palestinians don't care. Most just want a peaceful life now. And most suspect Mr. Olmert and his "zionist" thoughts. But what if all he wants is for equity, peace, and harmony for the people of his land as well? If he realizes that these large concessions are necessary to bring peace to his land, then good for him!

It would seem to me that the people who want peace the most are the ones who live there and if concessions can be made by both sides, then great! And with that people can shove their negative "zionist" labels where the sun doesn't shine. It would seem as these people, who don't live there, are expecting Israel to act in the negative before anything has even been decided.

If the talks are productive and Israel acts in accordanance with the talks, I hope that the rest of the Arab world acts in accordanance as well. If the same bs continues after Israel has made such an effort, it will indeed prove all of you pessimists right.
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gunsontheroof
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:18 am



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 20):

That brings us today. I do not believe that there will be an attack by Egypt anymore.

Egypt is the second largest recipient of U.S. military aid--a fact that insures you are correct. I don't need to tell you who is number one.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 20):
Israel has clearly been giving large portions of the land back to the palestinians. In fact Hamas has taken control of some of the areas with no Israeli presence. Israel has been releasing the prisoners that many opposition groups have been asking them to do for a long time. Israel has recently (against the exhortion of the IDF leaders) allowed supplying the Palestinian government with troop carriers and Russian weapons. Israel has also allowed Gaza exporting of agricultural crops again. Israel has recently made strong statements concerning the illegal settlers.

I'd be interested in seeing some sources for this if you've got them handy. I've heard nothing to this effect.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 20):

I seriously doubt the intentions of most of the Islamic countries to follow the course of an agreement brought about by Mr. Abbas, who is seen as a pawn of the "Zionists and Americans" by most Arabs and muslims.

Let's take Hezbollah in Lebanon for example. Nasrallah and co. don't regard Israel as a legitimate state and don't believe it ought to exist. Nobody disputes that. However, Nasrallah has also said--on many occasions--that Hezbollah will accept whatever settlement the Palestinians accept, even though you can bet he won't like it. Same goes for Iran. Khamenei accepts the Arab League's position on the issue--normalization of Palestinian relations with Israel under a two-state settlement. The two-state settlement has effectively been international consensus for the past thirty years--the only parties that have historically kept it from progressing have been Israel and the United States.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 20):
It would seem as these people, who don't live there, are expecting Israel to act in the negative before anything has even been decided.

We seem to have a different reading of both the history of the conflict and its current state. Nothing that's happened in the past gives me any reason to believe that Israel is going to make any meaningful efforts to abandon their settlements and withdraw from the occupied territories.
 
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:36 am



Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 21):
We seem to have a different reading of both the history of the conflict and its current state.

I have many "readings" and I know not to fall into the typical "evil zionist" prejudices that have caused harm to the whole situation. Hamas is loosing popularity because of their inability to govern Gaza (one of the territories left by Israel). True, Israel has a blockade but that is beside the fact. It would seem Hamas has been killing more Palestinians than Israel as well.

Here's 6 at a Fatah rally. After they shot a protestors they arrested quite a few. It would seem they are getting desperate as Fatah is offering a better way with relations from Israel.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/12/2088856.htm

I know its hard for alot of people, who have gone to liberal arts classes and have been indoctorined since the beginning with anti-zionist rhetoric, to understand that Israel is offering an olive branch. Its is also difficult for them to understand that Israel is only half the battle. Many arabs need this conflict.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:39 am



Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 21):
Nothing that's happened in the past gives me any reason to believe that Israel is going to make any meaningful efforts to abandon their settlements and withdraw from the occupied territories.

I never said they would abandon all of their settlements. Some of them in certain areas will need to be moved. Many won't. We will see. I have a feeling there will be a historic agreement. Again, I'm not sure how either side will act though.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:44 am



Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 21):
The two-state settlement has effectively been international consensus for the past thirty years--the only parties that have historically kept it from progressing have been Israel and the United States.

You need to read up on some history. Camp David did not turn out like Carter wanted. He admonished Israel for not following through with what was expected. And what do you think the US government has been backing since Clinton more than a decade ago? We have supplied Israel with weapons, but we have been plying for two states since the 70's.
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bravo45
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:54 am

Wow! I have to admit, much of what I intended to mentioned has already been touched on.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 10):
Everyone has a different idea of justice and want their revenge/satisfaction prior to moving on.

Well yeah I see your point. But I think if we stick to the code of law, we can form a reasonable consensus on what accounts for 'Justice'. That would invalidate the Zionist claim to the occupied lands using bible as the deed and the same can be said of those who talk about driving every Israeli into the sea. I won't even say lets proceed to the court, because the International Court of Justice has ruled on many issues according to the international law.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 11):
People hold back no punches when it comes to the Palestinians, but there are few here who wouldn't resist a comparable occupation of their own homelands.

 checkmark 

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 11):
I'm not optimistic either--George Bush talking about Middle East "peace" ............
No abandonment of Israeli settlements, no end to Palestinian bantustans. I can already see where this is going.

 checkmark  checkmark 
Totally agree! Further commenting and coming to the topic; This conference is not taking place because its deemed to be the right time (politically) or that there is the feeling of Enough!!!' or any of that. Its an attempt to undermine the Hezbollah-Hamas-Iran initiative further supported by the govt of Syria. The most dangerous(to them) part of it being the fear of the govt of middle east at the growing influence of Iran etc and the threat it poses to their govts because virtually the entire Muslim world is sick of their leaders. Combine that to the recently gained respect of Hezbollah in how they did what a dozen Arab countries couldn't. And you get the need for them along with the US to 'show something is being done'.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 12):
That is Israel's way of asserting their dominance.

 checkmark  And as Gunsontheroof touched on, a way to control the water resources. Just look at the map, mark the aquifers in that region, and you are looking at the settlements.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 13):
I have not seen this same openness in a Fatah / Hamas / Islamic Jihad society .. have you. ?

That's because what are now the Palestinian lands are those that are inhabited by Arabs cleansed off the land you are talking about. So you are never going to see it vice versa. Israel aims to be a Jewish state, it will have only so many Arabs and its not the whole story if you look and conclude that those Arabs have more or less every freedom.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 13):
I believe that Israelis and Palestinians could have lived together in greater Palestinian state. My hope of that ever happening now is dim. Both sides deserve blame for it , but I believe that the Israelis were more willing than the other side . JMHO

I totally agree with the first part. Indeed in a perfect world it is the best solution, have one state and equal rights to all. But like I said its the Israeli need to be a Jewish majority state more than anything that will prevent that. Israel IMO would be fine to claim all the land, have one state if a few million Palestinians get off the land to make them the majority. I don't agree when you say Israelis, especially at the begining of the conflict were in any way ready to accept a one state resolution. They needed control over immigration, allotment of land etc. Things that simply wouldn't have happened under one democratic state.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 14):
As do I. Unfortunately, Zionist policies in the region (and the Islamic blowback they have spawned) have lead us to a point where many, if not most Palestinians and Israelis are so frustrated and angry with the situation there that this option is unlikely to be entertained. The roots of the Israeli state lie in Zionism, and Zionism leaves no room for a unified Israeli-Palestinian state.

Again I somewhat sadly say I agree with you. With a few exceptions, a few incidents related to individuals that prove how wonderful that possibility can be. Unfortunately, looking realistically at the overall situation is enough to put any such thoughts out of the relams of possibility.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 15):
Hence a legitimate concern that if Olmert goes very far with any kind of overtures he will meet Rabin's fate.

Yeah no peace because Olmert might loose his life? Its bigger than any individual. Olmert might or might not pull out of it because of personal reasons. Concerning Israeli masses, I often get indications that the masses of Israelis might actually prefer a just peace. The same cannot be said of the settlers, armed to the teeth and sadly huge in numbers an those formerly known as terrorists (now called 'Men of Peace') on the Israeli side and those on Palestinian side called terrorists these days. But among those two, IMO it will be those on the Israeli side who can really cause trouble.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 18):
Yes--because Israel is undertaking unsustainable water use practices in a region with very little in the way of water resources.

Its one of the key issues in this conflict although its not often mentioned.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 18):
I absolutely refuse to believe that the establishment of a Zionist state on "empty land"

 checkmark 
Its a long dead myth.
 
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:51 am



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 22):

I have many "readings" and I know not to fall into the typical "evil zionist" prejudices that have caused harm to the whole situation.

I don't look at it as an "evil Zionist" prejudice--I simply can't get behind the idea of a Jewish state anymore than I can get behind the idea of an Islamic state based on Sharia law or the American "Christian nation" that so many folks on the right like to insist exists. In the case of Israel, the parallels between Zionist expansion and American "Manifest Destiny" are simply too difficult to ignore.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 22):
Hamas is loosing popularity because of their inability to govern Gaza (one of the territories left by Israel).

Not questioning Hamas' unpopularity or the removal of Israeli settlers from Gaza--anyone familiar with the situation remembers that many didn't go quietly.


Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 22):
I know its hard for alot of people, who have gone to liberal arts classes and have been indoctorined since the beginning with anti-zionist rhetoric, to understand that Israel is offering an olive branch. Its is also difficult for them to understand that Israel is only half the battle. Many arabs need this conflict.

Bah. Just when I thought you were going to engage in a respectable debate, you go and pull the "liberal arts college" card. Lame. In any case, it's difficult for me to see how Israel is "extending an olive branch" while it continues to erect "security" fences that not only perforate the borders between it and the West Bank, but are also cutting off Palestinian communities from one another and from local resources--particularly water. It's very difficult for me not to see it as an annexation wall rather than a security wall. For that matter, Israel has launched airstrikes on Gaza within the last few weeks--are these olive branches you speak of being delivered via precision guided munitions from F-16s? As for Israel only being "half of the battle," I'll agree that there are numerous Palestinian obstacles to peace, but the fact that Israel has a monopoly on the use of force in the region makes the idea that they are only "half" the battle seem a little ridiculous to me.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 23):
I never said they would abandon all of their settlements. Some of them in certain areas will need to be moved. Many won't. We will see. I have a feeling there will be a historic agreement. Again, I'm not sure how either side will act though.

I think it's going to be very difficult to reach any kind of agreement that can be characterized as "historic" without the complete removal of settlements from the occupied territories. I realize that concessions must be made on both sides, but that would seem like a minimal condition from the Palestinian perspective, especially given just how expansive these settlements have become. Open up your copy of Google Earth--they're impossible to miss.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 24):
You need to read up on some history. Camp David did not turn out like Carter wanted. He admonished Israel for not following through with what was expected. And what do you think the US government has been backing since Clinton more than a decade ago? We have supplied Israel with weapons, but we have been plying for two states since the 70's.

Yes--the U.S. has been backing the two state solution since the 1970s--two states on U.S.-Israeli terms. This is precisely what was proposed at Camp David and rightfully rejected by Arafat. Anyone who has really looked at the Palestinian "state" that was offered can see that it was completely unviable for a number of reasons, including scarcely contiguous territory, hardly any access to West Bank aquifers and no control over Palestinian airspace. Furthermore, the U.S. has routinely exercised its veto power in the UN security council on virtually every resolution related to Israel that comes up (seven vetoes for Bush II, seven for Clinton/Bush I combined and a galling nineteen for Reagan). The U.S. and Israel have also stood alone together in numerous general assembly votes. Just what has been vetoed in the SC? Among other things...

-A call for UN observers in the territories to reduce violence
-Condemnation of all acts of terror and violence and the establishment of a monitoring agency
-Expression of concern over Israel killing UN employees and destroying the UN world food program warehouse
-Reaffirmation of the illegality of deportation
-Expression of concern over the "security" barrier
-The assassination of cleric Sheikh Ahmed Yassin (a quadriplegic) and six others in 2004
-Condemnation of Israeli incursions into Gaza that resulted in civilian deaths

You can say the U.S. has been "backing" a "two state solution" all you want, but they've clearly been backing one side. To say that the U.S. is supplying Israel with weapons is at best, a gross understatement.
 
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:23 am



Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 18):
we all know who was living on those lands pre-1948.

Don't forget who was in charge, though, over the land, which was Britain. And the Brits are the ones who made provision for Israel to come into being.
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:57 am



Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 26):
Bah. Just when I thought you were going to engage in a respectable debate, you go and pull the "liberal arts college" card. Lame.

Yeah. I felt the same when you mentioned May Day a few months back. Keep taking your classes!

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 26):
I think it's going to be very difficult to reach any kind of agreement that can be characterized as "historic" without the complete removal of settlements from the occupied territories.

I am glad to know that you are incorrect in your unsubstantiated assumptions.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 26):
I'll agree that there are numerous Palestinian obstacles to peace, but the fact that Israel has a monopoly on the use of force in the region makes the idea that they are only "half" the battle seem a little ridiculous to me.

A monolopoly on " the use of force"? That is the most uneducated statement on this thread! Check out the origins of the first Lebanese War pertaining to Syria. There are 10 "forces" set on destroying Israel to the 2 set on its preservation. Go back to class! Isn't it ironic that in the Lebanese War Syria killed so many Palestinian refugees, yet now they claim a right to speak for them? The problem is that Islamic countries claim to be on Palestine's side when in fact they are just using it as political leverage.


And??? Given the nature of your education and past posts what is suprising?


The bird changes her song.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 24):
Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 21):
The two-state settlement has effectively been international consensus for the past thirty years--the only parties that have historically kept it from progressing have been Israel and the United States.

You need to read up on some history. Camp David did not turn out like Carter wanted. He admonished Israel for not following through with what was expected. And what do you think the US government has been backing since Clinton more than a decade ago? We have supplied Israel with weapons, but we have been plying for two states since the 70's.



Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 26):
I think it's going to be very difficult to reach any kind of agreement that can be characterized as "historic" without the complete removal of settlements from the occupied territories. I realize that concessions must be made on both sides, but that would seem like a minimal condition from the Palestinian perspective, especially given just how expansive these settlements have become. Open up your copy of Google Earth--they're impossible to miss.

I am glad to know that you are not advising the peace process with your pessimism.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:57 am



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 28):
Yeah. I felt the same when you mentioned May Day a few months back. Keep taking your classes!

Ah yes, I recall that. Would you believe that I've since graduated?

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 28):

A monolopoly on " the use of force"? That is the most uneducated statement on this thread! Check out the origins of the first Lebanese War pertaining to Syria. There are 10 "forces" set on destroying Israel to the 2 set on its preservation. Go back to class!

HAS. Not HAD. U.S. military aid to Israel has increased substantially since then. Israel is unquestionably the dominant military force in the region today and has shown no reluctance to use its military power against its neighbors. There's absolutely nothing controversial about my statement, it's a simple truth.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 28):
Isn't it ironic that in the Lebanese War Syria killed so many Palestinian refugees, yet now they claim a right to speak for them? The problem is that Islamic countries claim to be on Palestine's side when in fact they are just using it as political leverage.

A fact that isn't lost on many, if not most, Palestinians. "Fuck the Arabs" is the Palestinian sentiment I've heard repeated by people I've met who have spent time in the occupied territories.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 28):
I am glad to know that you are not advising the peace process with your pessimism.

I will be absolutely delighted if I am proven wrong.
 
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:15 am



Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 29):
Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 28):
Yeah. I felt the same when you mentioned May Day a few months back. Keep taking your classes!

Ah yes, I recall that. Would you believe that I've since graduated?

CONGRATULATIONS! Not being condescending, you are an intelligent young man. Please continue reading and learning beyond your degree! I assure you that most professors have an ulterior motive. Only by reading all sides of the bs can we hope to move beyond it!

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 29):

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 28):

A monolopoly on " the use of force"? That is the most uneducated statement on this thread! Check out the origins of the first Lebanese War pertaining to Syria. There are 10 "forces" set on destroying Israel to the 2 set on its preservation. Go back to class!

HAS. Not HAD. U.S. military aid to Israel has increased substantially since then. Israel is unquestionably the dominant military force in the region today and has shown no reluctance to use its military power against its neighbors. There's absolutely nothing controversial about my statement, it's a simple truth.

The status of Syria has not changed. They are destructive not only to the current peace process, but to the state of Lebanon as well.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 29):
Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 28):
I am glad to know that you are not advising the peace process with your pessimism.

I will be absolutely delighted if I am proven wrong.

Good. I hope that you are prove wrong as well.  Smile
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:54 pm



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 20):
It would seem that Israel has been making large strides towards heralding peace in the ME. All they are asking for is peace and recognition of Isreal.

No, they are asking (or rather just doing it without asking) to keep the best land, the expensive settlement construction they have continued to build on the occupied land, and to continue to channel more water resources into a growing Israeli infrastructure at the expense of any future Palestinian state infrastructure.

On the other hand, Hamas chanting "Death to Israel and Death to America" at their rallies and firing rockets into Israel makes Israelis justifiably scared about "security" and gives the settler's lobby way too much sway in the government, just as every Israeli checkpoint humiliation, economic stranglehold and "collateral" civilian death gives Hamas and its ilk much too much sway in Palestinian affairs. I don't think the cycle will break without a considerably larger outside pressure put on (but fairly on both sides, and in a way that can be enforced). Otherwise, I too remain pessimistic.

But, sometimes these processes can be surprising. Let's just hope! And, whatever his motives, I have to give credit to Bush and his administration for at least finally trying a little bit...

A note about Zionism:
Zionism started in response to centuries of persecution in Europe, expulsions or threats of expulsion from almost everywhere Jews lived, and finally especially the pogroms and other organized violence against Jews at precisely the time when most other ethnic groups in Europe were espousing the new nationalist idea of a homeland for each people. If everyone else had a homeland, why not the Jews too? So Zionism didn't start as some imperialistic scheme to take over a region! There soon emerged rifts between socialist Zionists espousing a dream of a just society and collective farming and religious Zionists who believed that they had a divine right to the land of Israel. To a large extent this split continues today in the Israeli left and right. Personally, I understand the origins of the Zionist dream of escaping persecution in a land where Jews would for once not be a minority. But everyone misplayed their cards; Palestine was not empty land (and one can read the other side in Edward Said's famous essay "Zionism from the Point of View of Its Victims"), and Britain flip-flopped and continually changed its mind in making un-keepable promises to both Jews and Arabs... As others have said, that's all in the past now, but the history continues to influence the way both sides see the conflict.
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:21 am



Quoting Tootallsd (Reply 2):
To me this is all about trying to fish some slivers of legacy after years of the Iraq debacle.

That didn't take long at all.  eyepopping  It always has to be about the legacy doesn't it?

Neither side has enough of their respective populations ready to make the serious concessions necessary to make a lasting peace work. Until both sides are ready to make major changes to the way they think it will remain just talk. No different than over here between our political parties. The only difference is we don't throw rocks or blow up busses, nor do we drive tanks over houses.
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:06 am

This thread is nice in that it has remained peaceful so far, but I would like to point out that all of the above posts presume that Israel's settlements in the West Bank/Gaza are the root cause of the conflict. Of course, this is simply not true as the conflict existed long before Israel put settlers in the West Bank, and the conflict has only worsened since Israel removed its settlers from Gaza.

So it is incorrect for everyone to argue that removing the West Bank settlers would make peace more likely. Quite the contrary actually. If Israel removed its settlers and military presence from the West Bank tomorrow, Hamas would simply take over . Even anti-Israel commentators acknowledge that Fatah is supported in the West Bank because of the Israeli military presence that physically prevents Hamas from taking over....
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bravo45
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:16 am



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 20):
Some are still thinking that somehow a death for a death is going to make things right in this world? Childish! It would seem that most of the recent deaths of Palestinians are at the hands of foreign governments fighting them in refugee camps, not by the Israeli's.

And who thought that way you, yourself called childish??

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 20):
A very broad and ambiguous statement! Perfect rhetoric of a politician. You must change careers. So, in practice we are all on "occupied" land. Aussies in Australia, whites in SA, all americans in the US, etc. etc. etc.

Broad? Yes. Ambiguous? What!!! NO!! Rhetoric? NO. Just one rule for all rather than a double standard full of hypocrisy. You should try that sometime.
About the US etc, was it not occupied? The difference being that today, now there is no one cleansed of those lands that continues to suffer (there are exceptions and they need to be addressed). Plus the people that live here now can be called native by just about any standard. Not true of most Israelis. Think of Israel today as the past of the US, without the religious aspect that Israelis invoke. Now the native American resistance was every bit as ugly and that needs to be acknowledged, but it didn't make their claim less just. Nor are/were they accused of being 'anti-white' although I am sure they vowed to push the invaders into the sea. Now if were living during that struggle, one has to support the oppressed victim.
In fact there are some prominent Israelis who hail the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians as a good thing and mention the native American case saying it was good too because that resulted in the great nation of th US. Now look at the US itself, I bet it wouldn't be as welcoming a country had its past not been what it is.
Lastly; No! No one needs to pack up and head anywhere unless they live on land they snatched from someone. Same should apply to all. Shouldn't it?

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 20):
Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):
But they fought for their lands in Israel , and won. The Arabs have tried and tried to kill them and push them into the sea ... yet you blame all of this on one side. Why ? Injustices ? Its to complicated for that mere idea .

Absolutely. Zionism has its own problems of racism and fanaticism but zionism is not to blame! Einstein was a zionist.

Firstly, gone are the days of empire expansion via conquest. So no one can 'fight for land and win', its ILLEGAL. And should you overlook that, then using the same logic, those aiming to retake it by ugly methods of force cannot be told to back down either. Secondly read a little about what kind of Zionist Einstein was, things he said and did. I think he turned down Israeli presidency. Or read what Gandhi said about Zionism and Israel. Not that any of it would be right had Einstein or Gandhi had a different opinion.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 20):
Very true. But keep in mind that WWII is what created the mass exodus and also inclined Israel to declare itself.

Then wouldn't it make more sense to have such an Israel that results from the Jewish persecution around WWII to exist on the land they were forced out of? No Palestinian ought to have paid for Jewish suffering by being stripped of their home. Then you go on to fantasize the settlements as required by Israeli security. Propaganda even Israelis don't buy.
 
imiakhtar
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RE: Bush Hosts First ME Mini-Summit In 7 Years

Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:47 am

Sad really that after 40 years of occupation and numerous UN and court rulings, nothing has been done to resolve the situation and the plight of millions of Palestinians, yet following Saddam's invasion and occupation of Kuwait that lasted 200 days, the world mobilised 540 000 troops to remove the occupiers from Kuwait. I don't see Annapolis achieving anything.

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