luisde8cd
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I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:31 am

Hey all,
This past week I was in McAllen, TX for a shopping trip. As I was returning to Mexico, I decided to stop at a fast food restaurant to have a quick typical greasy american meal about 2 blocks from the Intl. Bridge.

I had my car parked in the restaurant and I was picking up some paper trash in my car mats when I hear the sound of people running, when I lift my head I see 5 guys coming into the restaurant from a green area which is right next to the parking lot. (With the help of google earth I can now confirm that I was exactly 950 ft or 250m from the Rio Grande and that green area was the only thing between the restaurant and the river).

These 5 guys enter the restaurant, some of them order a drink and they sit in a table looking everywhere around them. They stood there for about 2 minutes and suddenly a SUV with Texas Plates came rushing into the parking lot and flashed its headlights into the restaurant. At this moment, the guys quickly left the restaurant and rushed into the SUV. The SUV then quickly backed up and left the parking lot with the sound of screeching tires.

With this experience I dare to make the assumption that these guys had just crossed the Rio Grande,which was just 250m from the restaurant, illegally and had a perfectly organized operation which apparently went smoothly.

Will a wall help deter this? I doubt it. I believe that if Americans don't want undocumented migrants coming into their country, the government should perform employee checks on business in order to find those undocumented migrants. If an undocumented employee is found, the employer should be sent to jail for at least 10 years. That way, I doubt you will see employers taking the risk to hire undocumented migrants. If there are no jobs, they won't come! as simple as that. Solve the problem from its root. There are some who claim that a wall will protect USA against terrorism, well, remember that the 9/11 hijackers flew into the US with Valid US Visas and were enrolled in a pilot academy in Florida without raising any suspicions.

Saludos desde Monterrey,
Luis

[Edited 2007-11-26 20:46:22]
 
tootallsd
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:45 am

I think you are generally right. I live in San Diego, hard by the border, site of the most frequently cross border (legally) in the world. We have the wall, I don't think it has much of a deterral force.

The issue is economic. Rich next to poor is like a vacuum. The pull is irresistable. Just like hating China but loving cheap toys at Wal Mart -- you can't have it both ways. Californians love cheap fruits and vegetables, gardeners, restaurant meals, etc, etc, etc. We all know what underwrites the low wages and the low prices but we dare not speak about our role in the problem -- if it is a problem.
 
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Jetsgo
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:46 am



Quoting Luisde8cd (Thread starter):
typical greasy american meal

 Yeah sure

Quoting Luisde8cd (Thread starter):
I believe that if Americans don't want undocumented migrants coming into their country, the government should perform employee checks on business

Although your suggestions are spot on, there is no guarantee they would have done anything to stop the particular incident you witnessed. Who knows why they were coming here. They could just be planning to bum off their legal family?

Quoting Luisde8cd (Thread starter):
undocumented migrants

Get over the PC garbage. They are illegal aliens.
Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
 
luisde8cd
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:59 am



Quoting JetsGo (Reply 3):
Who knows why they were coming here

Indeed we cannot know what were exactly their reasons, but the vast majority of Latin American migrants come to the US in order to do the same work they do in their home countries but receiving a 10X larger monthly wage. They use some of their money for own expenses and the rest is sent back home to support relatives.

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 3):
Get over the PC garbage

I don't know what you mean by PC Garbage...

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 3):
They are illegal aliens.

That's also a valid concept to describe those people alongside undocumented inmigrants.

Saludos desde Monterrey,
Luis
 
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Jetsgo
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:05 am



Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 4):
I don't know what you mean by PC Garbage...

PC = Politically Correct. Undocumented immigrants is too politically correct. They are simply illegal aliens.
Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
 
LAXspotter
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:16 am



Quoting JetsGo (Reply 3):
Get over the PC garbage. They are illegal aliens.


I think you guys would prefer W$TB&C*S

About your experience, I really dont think you saw something special or great.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Thread starter):
McAllen, TX for a shopping trip

Just wondering, do Texans have the "legal Right" to shoot these illegal immigrants?
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
luisde8cd
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:25 am



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 6):
do Texans have the "legal Right" to shoot these illegal immigrants?

Apparently yes if they can prove that their property was going to be stolen by them. Maybe if I had a gun in my car and saw the guys running towards me, I could have shot them all and claim they were coming at me to steal me car. That would be perfectly legal under Texan law. I'm not a lawyer but I think that's the law in Texas.

Saludos desde Monterrey,
Luis
 
LAXspotter
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:30 am



Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 7):
Maybe if I had a gun in my car and saw the guys running towards me, I could have shot them all and claim they were coming at me to steal me car.

and obviously they're not entitled protection under US law because they're illegals. might as well shoot em  Yeah sure
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:39 am



Quoting Luisde8cd (Thread starter):
Will a wall help deter this? I doubt it.

Not on a river. A wall near the Rio Grande wouldn't be a good thing. Along the Mexico-NM/AZ/CA border is a great place for one though.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 6):
W$TB&C*S

I almost thought that the site had screwed up the format of the word before I realized you did it yourself.
I love ASO!
 
LAXspotter
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:41 am



Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 9):
Not on a river

get Nile Crocodiles in that river, it will be a new twist to the Wilderbeest getting dragged into the water by the Reptilian beasts.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:52 am



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 10):
get Nile Crocodiles in that river, it will be a new twist to the Wilderbeest getting dragged into the water by the Reptilian beasts.

And CBS would turn it into a reality show!!!  Smile
I love ASO!
 
LAXspotter
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:54 am



Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 11):
And CBS would turn it into a reality show!!!

and the illegal migrants would be converting the reptiles into shoes and leather bags  Big grin "George Lopez"
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
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viaggiare
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The US

Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:19 am



Quoting Luisde8cd (Thread starter):
Will a wall help deter this? I doubt it.

It all depends on what you build. If it's like the Israeli West Bank Barrier then yes. If it's like the Minutemen cow fence in Arizona then no.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Thread starter):
the government should perform employee checks on business in order to find those undocumented migrants.

That would accomplish very little in the way of clearing street corners and commercial parking lots full of day laborers waiting for building contractors and landscapers. In fact, it may increase the size of the informal economy.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 10):

get Nile Crocodiles in that river

 rotfl 
Entre el fuerte y el débil, la libertad oprime. Sólo la ley libera.
 
zotan
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:30 am



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 8):
and obviously they're not entitled protection under US law because they're illegals. might as well shoot em Yeah sure

Any person on US territory, regardless of their status, is entitled to the same protections that a full fledged citizen receives.
 
tsaord
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:47 am

As long as they can get a job here without knowing English nothing will stop them. That President of their's Senor Calderon is at it again too. He is blaming the USA for mistreating Mexican Immigrants all the while still not answering the question of why he can't take of his people.
there are icons, then there are legends, then there is rick flair
 
N1120A
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:11 am



Quoting Luisde8cd (Thread starter):
If there are no jobs, they won't come! as simple as that.

And then, we will have a huge labor, and potentially food shortage

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 5):
Just wondering, do Texans have the "legal Right" to shoot these illegal immigrants?

No

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 8):
Along the Mexico-NM/AZ/CA border is a great place for one though.

Because it will do what?

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 12):
If it's like the Israeli West Bank Barrier then yes.

Looks like the Berlin Wall to me.

Quoting ZOTAN (Reply 13):
Any person on US territory, regardless of their status, is entitled to the same protections that a full fledged citizen receives.

He knows that.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
LAXspotter
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:16 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
He knows that.

I was being sarcastic  Smile But there are those who would argue against those principles

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
Because it will do what?

only cause the illegals to devise other ways of getting here, nothing else.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
huge labor, and potentially food shortage

judging by the large number of migrant workers in California which supplies a vast portion of the US's agricultural output it would be a devastating blow. Who else is going to work the fields, college students?
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
copaair737
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:07 am

If we cut off the illegal immigrants it will perpetuate a growth of new technology to harvest fruit and vegetables.
That, I would argue, is a good thing.
Livin' on Reds, Vitamin C, and Cocaine
 
mham001
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:36 pm



Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 17):
If we cut off the illegal immigrants it will perpetuate a growth of new technology to harvest fruit and vegetables.
That, I would argue, is a good thing.

The crackdowns have already caused a surge in the purchase of that equipment. The doomdayers are wrong when they claim we "can't live without them".
 
airtran737
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:52 pm

A wall won't stop this mess. When we finally pull out of Iraq we should put our troops on the borders, they can do a better job of ensureing that fewer illegals slime their way into this counrty.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
ORFflyer
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:08 pm



Quoting Luisde8cd (Thread starter):
I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA  



Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 3):
That's also a valid concept to describe those people alongside undocumented inmigrants.



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 5):
these illegal immigrants?



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 11):
and the illegal migrants

"Undocumented Migrants"

"undocumented inmigrants"

"illegal immigrants"

"illegal migrants"

You two can't make up you're mind on what to call them. The above are all incorrect - they are:

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 2):
They are illegal aliens.

Want to come here and work - do it legally, and I'll welcome you with open arms. Do it illegally, and you're simply an illegal alien that needs to go back. - PERIOD!
 
flipdewaf
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:16 pm

Why can they not just come in and get a proper work permit? I though america would be all for that, all being immigrants, or desendants of, anyway. Those mexicans should just go get a work permit.

Fred
Image
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:32 pm



Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 21):
I though America would be all for that

our big business government is too worried about spending us into a 3rd world nation status right now (We are already the largest debtor nation in the world), to worry about work permits. maybe in 10-15 years the US will be on par with Mexico and there will be no reason for any border breaking activity.
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
Queso
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:54 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
Looks like the Berlin Wall to me.

The Berlin Wall was built to keep people in, much like a prison. The border fence would be built to keep invaders out. If you want to compare it to some other fence, compare it to the Great Wall of China or a mote around a fort.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:20 pm



Quoting Tootallsd (Reply 1):
if it is a problem.

Did you actually post that?? 12-20 million people the government can neither keep track of nor adequately insure, educate, or count is most definitely a problem.

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 2):
Get over the PC garbage. They are illegal aliens.

 checkmark 

Quoting Tsaord (Reply 14):
He is blaming the USA for mistreating Mexican Immigrants all the while still not answering the question of why he can't take of his people.

That's because no Mexican president wants to answer those questions since it would require accountability. I wonder where they learned that from...covet thy neighbor! The present day Mexican elite are a disgrace to the otherwise proud and rich history of their nation. Four decades of unyielding greed have resulted in the quiet revolution heading north.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
And then, we will have a huge labor, and potentially food shortage

Imported food is cheaper anyway. Maybe then we can end our ridiculous domestic agricultural subsidies.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 22):
our big business government is too worried about spending us into a 3rd world nation status right now (We are already the largest debtor nation in the world), to worry about work permits.

 checkmark 
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
carmenlu15
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:26 pm



Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 20):

You two can't make up you're mind on what to call them.

In Luis' defense, I'll say that "undocumented migrants" is the literal translation of what we usually call them in Spanish - inmigrantes indocumentados. Also, for us Spanish speakers, alien has a slightly different connotation...  Wink

(bottom line, they're still illegal)
Don't expect to see me around that much (if at all) -- the contact link should still work, though.
 
ORFflyer
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:39 pm



Quoting Carmenlu15 (Reply 25):
In Luis' defense, I'll say that "undocumented migrants" is the literal translation of what we usually call them in Spanish - inmigrantes indocumentados. Also, for us Spanish speakers, alien has a slightly different connotation...

Fair enough, and your statement below is spot on as well.

Quoting Carmenlu15 (Reply 25):
(bottom line, they're still illegal)

BTW - I like your graphics.  bigthumbsup 
 
AGM100
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:41 pm

The Primary infiltration routes into Tucson are the dry washes that run though the city from the outlying border territory. The Mex border is approx 100 mi south of Tucson. The immigrants cross the borders and hold up in the outlaying areas to the south of the city. At sunset they move up though the dry washes which provide cover from law enforcement detection for the most part.

Once they make their way though the city limit area , they come up out the wash.. go to a nearby bus stop and make their way into the city. I have witnessed this happening close to my house in the Loews parking lot. They come up from the wash and walk across the parking lot where their is a large city bus stop.

Now , I will also add that I see a good amount of BP action up and down the washes. BP Quad runners , and 4 x 4''s are seen patrolling though the washes. For night operation their is a FLIR equipped aircraft that circles above on a search pattern up and down the washes. I see this aircraft most every-night , but I am not sure what kind it is but I have seen the FLIR equipment underneath. The aircraft is also equipped with a spotlight which I have seen operate several times. Thier are other air assets used as well, but the primary search operation is carried out with the night spotter. Lately I believe that they may be using Predator's .. I can not confirm but whatever they are they sound weird and operate higher than the normal spotter aircraft.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Transpac787
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:05 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 24):
Imported food is cheaper anyway.

That would be great. Let's import MORE.....
 
luisde8cd
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:31 pm



Quoting Tsaord (Reply 14):
He is blaming the USA for mistreating Mexican Immigrants all the while still not answering the question of why he can't take of his people.

What's most ironic about the Mexican Govt. policy towards migrants is that they whine every time the US touches a mexican national illegally crossing into the US but when a Central American migrants illegally enters Mexico, the Mexican police violate their human rights in the most horrible ways you can imagine. 100% hypocrisy.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 24):
The present day Mexican elite are a disgrace to the otherwise proud and rich history of their nation. Four decades of unyielding greed have resulted in the quiet revolution heading north.

It is always easy to blame the rulers, do you actually have an idea of how Mexican (and Latin American) society works? Family in Latin America doesn't exist. The poor masses (the majority of the population) often become parents before 18. It's very common to see a single mother of 22 with 4 different children of 5 different fathers! yes 5 fathers because she doesn't know who's the true father of one of them. Meanwhile, males reach 30 with 10 different children with 10 different mothers and they don't give a shit about providing for any of them.

The result? poor single mothers cannot provide their children with education, without education the poverty cycle repeats again, the daughters will get pregnant at 13 and the boys will have 5 children by the time they are 20 and won't bother to recognize any of them. THAT'S THE MAIN ROOT OF POVERTY IN LATIN AMERICA! Of course, politicians share PART OF THE BLAME, but not 100% of it.

Saludos desde Monterrey,
Luis
 
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viaggiare
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The US

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:27 pm



Quoting Carmenlu15 (Reply 25):
Also, for us Spanish speakers, alien has a slightly different connotation...

 rotfl  True, the term is reminiscent of painful internal probes.

Undocumented immigrants (Inmigrantes indocumentados)...
Entre el fuerte y el débil, la libertad oprime. Sólo la ley libera.
 
N1120A
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:59 pm



Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 17):
If we cut off the illegal immigrants it will perpetuate a growth of new technology to harvest fruit and vegetables.

Try doing that with citrus fruit. Try that with strawberries.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 24):

Imported food is cheaper anyway. Maybe then we can end our ridiculous domestic agricultural subsidies.

Not when it comes to fruits and vegetables.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
LAXspotter
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:32 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
Try doing that with citrus fruit. Try that with strawberries.

he lives in the Central Valley I think, maybe he can tell us how many College students are willing to work the fields for a few extra bucks.....
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
WellHung
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:32 pm

Was there a Home Depot nearby? It is possible that this pickup just needed some cheap help for a construction project and the alleged illegals were already in the country.
 
AM744
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Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 11:05 pm

RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:49 pm



Quoting Tsaord (Reply 14):
That President of their's Senor Calderon is at it again too. He is blaming the USA for mistreating Mexican Immigrants all the while still not answering the question of why he can't take of his people.

Hypocresy.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 24):
That's because no Mexican president wants to answer those questions since it would require accountability. I wonder where they learned that from...covet thy neighbor! The present day Mexican elite are a disgrace to the otherwise proud and rich history of their nation. Four decades of unyielding greed have resulted in the quiet revolution heading north.

 checkmark 

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 29):
What's most ironic about the Mexican Govt. policy towards migrants is that they whine every time the US touches a mexican national illegally crossing into the US but when a Central American migrants illegally enters Mexico, the Mexican police violate their human rights in the most horrible ways you can imagine. 100% hypocrisy.

 checkmark 

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 29):
It is always easy to blame the rulers, do you actually have an idea of how Mexican (and Latin American) society works? Family in Latin America doesn't exist. The poor masses (the majority of the population) often become parents before 18. It's very common to see a single mother of 22 with 4 different children of 5 different fathers! yes 5 fathers because she doesn't know who's the true father of one of them. Meanwhile, males reach 30 with 10 different children with 10 different mothers and they don't give a shit about providing for any of them.

That's a bit over the top. That was the case in the 50's. I don't deny it can happen, but it's not the norm. The birth rate has plunged in the last 25 years, admitedly, thanks to government efforts and campaigns.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 29):
The result? poor single mothers cannot provide their children with education, without education the poverty cycle repeats again, the daughters will get pregnant at 13 and the boys will have 5 children by the time they are 20 and won't bother to recognize any of them. THAT'S THE MAIN ROOT OF POVERTY IN LATIN AMERICA! Of course, politicians share PART OF THE BLAME, but not 100% of it.

Add to that the bunch of lazy guys that want it easy. There ARE opportunities. It's just that you have to work your a** off and many people prefer to go for the easy dollar. The main root of poverty in Latin America is that honest, hard working people have a hard time prospering because of corruption, not being part of the elite and lack of law enforcement. It's a combination of lack of self determination AND a corrupt, exploiting environment.
 
abrelosojos
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RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:56 pm



Quoting ZOTAN (Reply 13):
Any person on US territory, regardless of their status, is entitled to the same protections that a full fledged citizen receives.

= I will pass on that info to the next illegal I come across.

Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 21):
Why can they not just come in and get a proper work permit? I though america would be all for that, all being immigrants, or desendants of, anyway. Those mexicans should just go get a work permit.

Fred

= Because America has developed such a skewed immigration system that it pays to be illegal. Unlike other work based immigration systems, you have to pre-arrange a work permit to come. Why not open it up to a point system which has worked successfully in some countries?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 24):
That's because no Mexican president wants to answer those questions since it would require accountability. I wonder where they learned that from...covet thy neighbor! The present day Mexican elite are a disgrace to the otherwise proud and rich history of their nation. Four decades of unyielding greed have resulted in the quiet revolution heading north.

= Perfectly said. For change to happen, the average middle class must demand it. Unfortunately, that does not exist in a lot of Latin American countries which all suffer from HUGE class disparities. Just a look at the Gini Coefficient will tell you how inequal the countries are. Without the middle class, the poor can have 2 ways of achieving social mobility - revolt - which is painful, but is happening in parts of the Continent to wrest it from the Latin elite ... or Migration - which is the easier way out. In Mexico, I will argue that it is in the BENEFIT of the elite power class to support illegal migration. It is ensuring that those wanting to revolt and change the power structure all go off and become problems of the United States.

Look at the Mexican elite. Just look at the physical makeup of the ruling political and economic class. Now look at the average Mexican. Do you see any form of resemblance? To be fair though, very few Latin countries have been able to integrate non-whites to the framework ... Venezuela (even before Chavez) along with Cuba were probably the better performers.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 29):
What's most ironic about the Mexican Govt. policy towards migrants is that they whine every time the US touches a mexican national illegally crossing into the US but when a Central American migrants illegally enters Mexico, the Mexican police violate their human rights in the most horrible ways you can imagine. 100% hypocrisy.

= This is a historic moment. I am agreeing with Luisde8cd. Mexican foreign policy is built on hypocricy. The worst human rights offender in the Americas according to some irrelevant HRW study was Mexico's border patrol officers on undocumented Guatemalan workers. Mexico treats its neighbours as "mierda" - and thats why I am always amused at Mexican politicians wanting a "fair" deal for its undocumented/illegal migrants/aliens in U.S.A.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 29):
It is always easy to blame the rulers, do you actually have an idea of how Mexican (and Latin American) society works? Family in Latin America doesn't exist. The poor masses (the majority of the population) often become parents before 18. It's very common to see a single mother of 22 with 4 different children of 5 different fathers! yes 5 fathers because she doesn't know who's the true father of one of them. Meanwhile, males reach 30 with 10 different children with 10 different mothers and they don't give a shit about providing for any of them.

The result? poor single mothers cannot provide their children with education, without education the poverty cycle repeats again, the daughters will get pregnant at 13 and the boys will have 5 children by the time they are 20 and won't bother to recognize any of them. THAT'S THE MAIN ROOT OF POVERTY IN LATIN AMERICA! Of course, politicians share PART OF THE BLAME, but not 100% of it.

= I am back to being on the other side of Luisde8cd. God, it was scary that I agreed with him. I think politicians and institutions have to take full blame. The route out of poverty has to be made easier across Latin America. Without social mobility, there is NO hope in the continent. I disagree with Luis as I believe in the other direction of the causality. The poor single uneducated mother is forced to have 3-4 children to help meeting household needs because NO HOPE exists to break the social cycle. Around her, she sees the only way to escape poverty is to migrate. The government and the elite have failed in providing a society where public education, social programs exist that afford her the opportunity to dream and aspire to move out. Of course, this is complicated by the fact that the elite continue to look different and act different than any of these poor peoples cohorts.

I dont believe per se in affirmative action. However opportunities must be made available so the middle class and the poor class can attain an education that would enable them to break vicious poverty. Most top colleges and universities in Latin America are private run - do you think a slum dweller can attend Los Andes (Colombia), ITAM (Mexico), etc? Probably not. This is what will keep on holding Latin America back. In this, we can learn a lot. Not from the Americans. But from the other fast emerging countries ... China and India. Most top universities are public, and INCREDIBLY good. This provides hope ... without this hope, the only way of escaping is to Los Estados Unidos ... and why seriously if you were an elite politician care? You continue to export the problem to the poor Americans without really doing fundamental reforms at home.

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:00 pm



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 35):
- revolt - which is painful, but is happening in parts of the Continent to wrest it from the Latin elite

And is sure to get you deemed a communist by the US.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4050
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:11 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):
And is sure to get you deemed a communist by the US.

= Yup. That is the irony of the whole situation in'nit? The real people who can create change in Latin America are kept at bay because it does not suit the interests of the higher ups on both sides.

-A.
Live, and let live.
 
AM744
Posts: 1439
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 11:05 pm

RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:15 pm



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 35):
Look at the Mexican elite. Just look at the physical makeup of the ruling political and economic class. Now look at the average Mexican. Do you see any form of resemblance? To be fair though, very few Latin countries have been able to integrate non-whites to the framework ... Venezuela (even before Chavez) along with Cuba were probably the better performers.



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 35):
Most top colleges and universities in Latin America are private run - do you think a slum dweller can attend Los Andes (Colombia), ITAM (Mexico), etc?

Actually, at least in Mexico, they are no better, it's just a facade. The same teachers work at public and private institutions. Private institutions contribute almost nothing to science and research and are ranked equal or worst in every serious ranking, whether domestic or international. They're just as bad, if you will (or good, being optimistic).

We are actually going backwards in these two topics, thanks to the right-wing policies. We used to be a more egalitarian country, yet people keep voting for the same crap, because TV tells them to do so, and they comply. Still, Mexico is integrated to a certain degree. At least here you get to see plenty of mestizos in high positions (Felipe Calderón for one).
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4050
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:23 pm

Quoting AM744 (Reply 38):
Actually, at least in Mexico, they are no better, it's just a facade. The same teachers work at public and private institutions. Private institutions contribute almost nothing to science and research and are ranked equal or worst in every serious ranking, whether domestic or international. They're just as bad, if you will (or good, being optimistic).

We are actually going backwards in these two topics, thanks to the right-wing policies. We used to be a more egalitarian country, yet people keep voting for the same crap, because TV tells them to do so, and they comply. Still, Mexico is integrated to a certain degree. At least here you get to see plenty of mestizos in high positions (Felipe Calderón for one).

= I have a very simple test to determine whether social mobility and egalitarianness (is that a word?) has taken off in any particular Latin American country. Watch TV ... and then watch the TV commercials. The day the actors in TV reflect the society at large, strides towards egalitarian society would have been made. Of course, this is just my unscientific benchmark.

AM744: do you really believe Calderon http://ricardosblog.com/images/felipe1.jpg is representative of Mexican society at large? Of course, he is part of it ... but the "average"? (Given, "average" characterization is always arbitrary)

Cheers,
A.

[Edited 2007-11-27 12:30:01]
Live, and let live.
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4050
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:25 pm



Quoting AM744 (Reply 38):
Actually, at least in Mexico, they are no better, it's just a facade. The same teachers work at public and private institutions. Private institutions contribute almost nothing to science and research and are ranked equal or worst in every serious ranking, whether domestic or international. They're just as bad, if you will (or good, being optimistic).

= My ITAM and Tec friends will probably crucify you  Smile.

Cheers,
A,
Live, and let live.
 
luisde8cd
Posts: 2444
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:02 am

RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The US

Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:45 pm

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 35):
The poor single uneducated mother is forced to have 3-4 children to help meeting household needs because NO HOPE exists to break the social cycle. Around her, she sees the only way to escape poverty is to migrate. The government and the elite have failed in providing a society where public education, social programs exist that afford her the opportunity to dream and aspire to move out. Of course, this is complicated by the fact that the elite continue to look different and act different than any of these poor peoples cohorts

Abrelosojos, a couple of months ago I was ordering a McDonalds meal from my car in an Auto-Mac in Caracas. While I was waiting for my burger, a poor kid came to my window begging for spare change. It was 1130am on Tuesday, so I asked him:

-Why aren't you in school?

-My mom cannot afford to send me to school

-Hmm, let's do something. Tell me if you prefer chicken or meat and I will buy you a happy meal.

He said chicken and I ordered a McNuggets happy meal for him. After I was given the happy meal, I handed it out to him, he thanked me with a huge smile in his face and ran on the sidewalk for about half a block where he proudly showed his meal to a woman ( I believe was his mother) who was talking on the phone with a brand new RAZR V3.

That is the mentality of our society who prefer easy money and like to put booze and cell phones on their top list of priorities. That's the truth regarding the behavior of a large part of the population and if you combine that with a corrupt environment where opportunities are limited you get = MASSIVE POVERTY

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 35):
God, it was scary that I agreed with him.

I wouldn't be scared to agree with you, in fact, if you were Venezuelan I would be happy to reach consensus with a Chavista in order to reduce poverty in Venezuela.


Saludos desde Monterrey,
Luis

[Edited 2007-11-27 12:47:10]
 
miamix707
Posts: 3848
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:22 pm

RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:50 pm



Quoting Carmenlu15 (Reply 25):
In Luis' defense, I'll say that "undocumented migrants" is the literal translation of what we usually call them in Spanish - inmigrantes indocumentados. Also, for us Spanish speakers, alien has a slightly different connotation...

ROFL.. @Carmenlu never seen an "alien" emoticon before

The other day ex Mexican president Vicente Fox was on Glenn Beck, he's a friendly guy and all but from watching the interview it sounded like he wasn't too worried about people crossing the border. After all, Mexico's economy gets millions from all the illegal undocumented aliens < insert spaceship emoticon >

What % of the Mexican economy comes from inmigrants in the US?
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4050
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:55 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 41):
Abrelosojos, a couple of months ago I was ordering a McDonalds meal from my car in an Auto-Mac in Caracas. While I was waiting for my burger, a poor kid came to my window begging for spare change. It was 1130am on Tuesday, so I asked him:

-Why aren't you in school?

-My mom cannot afford to send me to school

-Hmm, let's do something. Tell me if you prefer chicken or meat and I will buy you a happy meal.

He said chicken and I ordered a McNuggets happy meal for him. After I was given the happy meal, I handed it out to him, he thanked me with a huge smile in his face and ran on the sidewalk for about half a block where he proudly showed his meal to a woman ( I believe was his mother) who was talking on the phone with a brand new RAZR V3.

That is the mentality of our society who prefer easy money and like to put booze and cell phones on their top list of priorities. That's the truth regarding the behavior of a large part of the population and if you combine that with a corrupt environment where opportunities are limited you get = MASSIVE POVERTY

= I think you have a very simplified view of poverty. But lets agree to disagree.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 41):
I wouldn't be scared to agree with you, in fact, if you were Venezuelan I would be happy to reach consensus with a Chavista in order to reduce poverty in Venezuela.


Saludos desde Monterrey,
Luis

= First off, irrespective of your numerous attempts to brand me as a "Chavista", I am not one. I just believe that there is a role for people like Chavez to highlight historical failures and injustices by the elite - that does not translate into a ringing endorsement of him and/or his means. Finally, for the reduction of poverty, we need to look beyond "if you were Venezuelan" or "Chavez, anti-Chavez" rhetoric. We cannot create a culture of cooperation and construct meaningful dialogue if labels preface discussion. The starving abject poor in Venezuela (or ANY country for that matter) does not care if I am an expat fron Liechtenstein living in Venezuela .. or you are a Venezuelan living in Mexico.

Well, manana es otro dia. Hoping tomorrow we can all have a drink and talk about real social mobility  .

Cheers,
A.

PS: I personally would not have given to someone who begs me. It creates a mentality of "hand outs" ... but for Gods sake, I would (and am with my current involvements) fight to the end to ensure that this person has access to improve their own life.

[Edited 2007-11-27 12:57:46]
Live, and let live.
 
AM744
Posts: 1439
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 11:05 pm

RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:55 pm



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 39):
AM744: do you really believe Calderon http://ricardosblog.com/images/felipe1.jpg is representative of Mexican society at large? Of course, he is part of it ... but the "average"? (Given, "average" characterization is always arbitrary)

He is certainly mestizo, not white, and thus representative of 70% of the population (Fox wasn't, since he is son of two europeans.).

Mestizo 70%
Amerindian 21%
White 9%

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 39):
I have a very simple test to determine whether social mobility and egalitarianness (is that a word?) has taken off in any particular Latin American country. Watch TV ... and then watch the TV commercials. The day the actors in TV reflect the society at large, strides towards egalitarian society would have been made. Of course, this is just my unscientific benchmark.

Lol, that is my own personal benchmark, and it's true, TV is not representative by any means.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 40):
= My ITAM and Tec friends will probably crucify you

Mine too, lol. I mean no disrispect, those are the numbers (rankings are public) and my personal experience working with people who studied in a wide range of schools. They can be good, but there's a lot of cliqueism (I know that's not a word, but you get the idea) involved.

Mexico's top 3 schools as graded by teachers, students and employers (yearly poll published by Reader's Digest):
ITESM (private)
IPN (public)
UNAM (public)

Top three research institutions:
UNAM (public) Only Spanish-speaking univerisity in the world's top 200.
IPN (public) Just one of its research centers (CINVESTAV) has 50 graduate programs in the Conacyt Excellence list. More that all ITESM campus combined.
ITESM

Don't get me wrong. The more good schools we have the better. I just don't like the whole "we are better than thou" crap, specially when the numbers just don't say so.
 
AM744
Posts: 1439
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 11:05 pm

RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:59 pm



Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 41):
That is the mentality of our society who prefer easy money and like to put booze and cell phones on their top list of priorities.

Right on the spot. Many many people have the opportunity to prosper, they just don't take it.
 
miamix707
Posts: 3848
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:22 pm

RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:11 pm



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 43):
PS: I personally would not have given to someone who begs me. It creates a mentality of "hand outs" ... but for Gods sake, I would (and am with my current involvements) fight to the end to ensure that this person has access to improve their own life.

Te ganaste el Premio Nobel!

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 41):
He said chicken and I ordered a McNuggets happy meal for him. After I was given the happy meal, I handed it out to him, he thanked me with a huge smile in his face and ran on the sidewalk for about half a block where he proudly showed his meal to a woman ( I believe was his mother) who was talking on the phone with a brand new RAZR V3.

One day I was hanging out in Coconut Grove with a friend and a black guy in a bicycle asked for money so I said to my friend hey let's buy him a donut (we were right in front of a bakery). Well.. when we give it to him he has this expression like uhh thanks, but he wasn't thrilled.

Later on we were walking and see another guy in a bicycle approaching and then out of nowhere the guy we gave the donut to shows up, but when he recognized it was us.. they were like ooh and went away. The moral of the story is this organized bicycle "gang" of beggers weren't hungry and probably wanted money just for drugs.
 
luisde8cd
Posts: 2444
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:02 am

RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:49 pm



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 43):
I think you have a very simplified view of poverty.

The view that I have from poverty was based in a social studies class that I took in my early semesters of college. The textbook we used had some statistics based on surveys which showed that around 70% of the people with the lowest income in Venezuela do not know their father or didn't grow up with his support. Social decomposition at its best, family is the core nucleus of society, if society is corrupted from its core, what can you expect from society as a whole? Again, I disagree with you calling my view of poverty "simplified".

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 43):
First off, irrespective of your numerous attempts to brand me as a "Chavista", I am not one

You openly support Chavez and you repeat his "oligarchy-empire-elite-etc-etc" speech in a.net, yet you are not a Chavista? I'm puzzled.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 43):
I just believe that there is a role for people like Chavez to highlight historical failures and injustices by the elite

I'm perfectly fine with someone highlighting those problems and eliminating them! But do you really have to use the country's income to buy people's consciences inside and outside Venezuela? I also don't like being ruled by a liar who said in 1998 before being elected the following statements:

- I will not seek to remain in office after 5 years
- I will not nationalize any business
- I will not close any private media and I believe that having just Venezolana de Television is enough for the State.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 43):
Finally, for the reduction of poverty, we need to look beyond "if you were Venezuelan" or "Chavez, anti-Chavez" rhetoric.

I hate that rethoric! but guess who started the division of the country with his hatred speech against anyone who dared to oppose his ideas? Your beloved president..."oligarcas, escuálidos, tarifados de la cia, cachorros del imperio, golpistas, guarimberos, saboteadores, apátridas, INSERT YOUR PEJORATIVE ADJECTIVE HERE, etc..."

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 43):
We cannot create a culture of cooperation and construct meaningful dialogue if labels preface discussion

100% agree with you, please tell your President to stop the labeling of his opponents and blacklisting us for signing a petition to have an election over his mandate! Stop the labeling!

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 43):
The starving abject poor in Venezuela (or ANY country for that matter) does not care if I am an expat fron Liechtenstein living in Venezuela .. or you are a Venezuelan living in Mexico.

Agree.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 43):
Well, manana es otro dia. Hoping tomorrow we can all have a drink and talk about real social mobility

That would be great  Wink

Saludos desde Monterrey,
Luis
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4050
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:22 am



Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 47):
Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 43):
I think you have a very simplified view of poverty.

The view that I have from poverty was based in a social studies class that I took in my early semesters of college. The textbook we used had some statistics based on surveys which showed that around 70% of the people with the lowest income in Venezuela do not know their father or didn't grow up with his support. Social decomposition at its best, family is the core nucleus of society, if society is corrupted from its core, what can you expect from society as a whole? Again, I disagree with you calling my view of poverty "simplified".

= My characterization of your view was a direct response to the example you used; i.e. of the begging kid. It had no connection to your theme of family.

Since we have different viewpoints, there would be no point to flesh out the plethora of unanswered questions you raise - from which college, which survey, who agreed, the direction of causality, correlation vs. causality, etc. The origins of poverty is a pretty complicated subject ... however, if your text book solves it down to people not having a father - more power to you. I am sure development agencies would love to hear and implement the same in their programs,

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 47):
Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 43):
First off, irrespective of your numerous attempts to brand me as a "Chavista", I am not one

You openly support Chavez and you repeat his "oligarchy-empire-elite-etc-etc" speech in a.net, yet you are not a Chavista? I'm puzzled.

= As you clearly fail to see, there is a difference between the message and the messanger. I do believe that without social mobility development will not happen - for this, a significant portion of the elite are to be blamed. This fundamental injustice has led to the rise of Chavez. This does not mean I agree with him or his means.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 47):
Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 43):
I just believe that there is a role for people like Chavez to highlight historical failures and injustices by the elite

I'm perfectly fine with someone highlighting those problems and eliminating them! But do you really have to use the country's income to buy people's consciences inside and outside Venezuela? I also don't like being ruled by a liar who said in 1998 before being elected the following statements:

- I will not seek to remain in office after 5 years
- I will not nationalize any business
- I will not close any private media and I believe that having just Venezolana de Television is enough for the State.

= The past rulers of Venezuela have not really been the model of honesty and truth to uphold. Chavez is no different. Another politican greedy to retain power. Its just that this time, he wears reddish underwear.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 47):
Your beloved president



Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 47):
your President

= I thought you wanted to create a bridge and work towards a constructive dialogue. Using these terms to label me does not serve that purpose, or the larger goals you outline above.

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
luisde8cd
Posts: 2444
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:02 am

RE: I Saw Undocumented Migrants Arriving To The USA

Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:00 am



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 48):
The past rulers of Venezuela have not really been the model of honesty and truth to uphold. Chavez is no different. Another politican greedy to retain power. Its just that this time, he wears reddish underwear.

110% agree with you there.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 48):
As you clearly fail to see, there is a difference between the message and the messanger. I do believe that without social mobility development will not happen - for this, a significant portion of the elite are to be blamed. This fundamental injustice has led to the rise of Chavez. This does not mean I agree with him or his means.

Indeed the injustice has led to the rise of Chavez and I know there are people part of the upper classes who have exploited the poor for their own benefit, thus we can call them the greedy elite. I simply dislike being labeled as part of that elite just because my family worked its ass off to provide me with education and decent housing (so I can have internet access and post in here). In many posts you have accused a.netters who have criticized Chavez of being part of "the elite", the same elite that Chavez talks about in his speeches. After seeing that attitude, I assumed you liked Chavez as you were spreading his ideas in here. If you are not Chavista, my apologies for me insulting you by calling you Chavista.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 48):
I thought you wanted to create a bridge and work towards a constructive dialogue.



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 48):
Using these terms to label me does not serve that purpose, or the larger goals you outline above.

That's right, we can always reach constructive dialogue.

Saludos desde Monterrey,
Luis

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