LHMark
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"Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:04 am

I was just thinking about this. I'm a left-thinker about a lot of stuff (a right-thinker about other stuff, but mostly left), and I couldn't give a crap about tightening gun control. If you want to legally buy a gun, keep a small arsenal in your house, join the NRA, whatever! Knock yourself out. It really doesn't bother me. Hell, I know "liberals" who love and own plenty of guns. Some of them are passionate hunters, too.

My point is that it isn't a bad thing to look at how people really are, beyond the media labels. Maybe we could see that we're not as different from each other as we think, or as we'd maybe like to be.
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
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falstaff
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:16 pm



Quoting LHMARK (Thread starter):
Hell, I know "liberals" who love and own plenty of guns. Some of them are passionate hunters, too.

So do I. A good buddy of mine is so liberal it is insane, but he is a strong 2nd amendment man. I have also met conservatives who hate guns. There are plenty of both

A few years ago there was a pro gun group of homosexuals featured in the Detroit Free Press. They were trying to break the stereotype of gays all being antigun. Before that time I was unaware that people assume gays are anti gun. I guess it is because they tend to vote for more liberal politicians. There were several hundred in the group. I have never heard anything more about them.

My dad is a bleeding heart liberal and he belongs to the NRA.

I am an open minded good ol' boy who is a life member of NRA, a FFL holder, and concealed pistol license holder. I am a teacher who belongs to the NEA which is very anti gun union. I love having my NEA and NRA card next to each other in my wallet.
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N74JW
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:22 pm

I think people throw labels onto others to give themselves a comfort level with something that they are uncomfortable.

The media has political and financial agendas. I don't really consider them an objective source of information.

I am both right and left. What blows me away are some folks who have to be right or left, but not both. Right/Left there is something there for everyone I think. Ann Coulter is the Alice Cooper or Marilyn Manson of her movement, just out for a headline.
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Queso
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:29 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 1):
A few years ago there was a pro gun group of homosexuals featured in the Detroit Free Press. They were trying to break the stereotype of gays all being antigun. Before that time I was unaware that people assume gays are anti gun. I guess it is because they tend to vote for more liberal politicians. There were several hundred in the group. I have never heard anything more about them.

http://www.pinkpistols.org/

As for the other detail in the first couple of posts, I am very hard-headed about my feelings on gun control and maybe that's because I have encountered some of the most hard-headed opponents to gun ownership on the planet and I view that as a threat to my freedom. I've met a couple of people (members of A.net actually) who are similar to the examples Falstaff and LHMARK described, but I've found they are very few and far between. Gun control is very much like abortion and the death penalty- people generally feel very strongly one way or the other about it.

So I'll sit back and watch how this thread plays out before turning into an all-out gun control debate- AGAIN!

 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:33 pm

Try a homo liberal gun-lover Big grin I am all about having the right to own a gun. With ownership comes the intelligence to own, operate and safely stow said gun.
You can't cure stupid
 
N74JW
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:11 pm



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 4):
With ownership comes the intelligence to own, operate and safely stow said gun.

That's it right there...
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diamond
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:21 pm

Why do some people "need" guns and others do not?



I don't think that all guns need to be taken away from the population. But this idea of having an "arsenal" at home is ridiculous.
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LHMark
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:29 pm

Well, some people (like my friend Todd) are military historians and/or hobbyists. If it's a serious interest, and it's legal to own them, that's cool.
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MDorBust
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:36 pm



Quoting Diamond (Reply 6):
Why do some people "need" guns and others do not?

Why does anyone have to prove a "need" to exercise a right?

Quoting Diamond (Reply 6):
I don't think that all guns need to be taken away from the population. But this idea of having an "arsenal" at home is ridiculous.

Well, unless they are some form of crazy mutant a person who owns 100 guns can only use as many as the person who only owns two.

I'm sure we wouldn't call Jay Leno ridiculous for owning a very large car collection.




Anywho, back to the topic. There are political liberals, and there are social liberals.. they aren't the always the same thing. Just like political and social conservatives aren't the same things. It's very reasonable for a true social liberal to believe in the right of people to bear arms.
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:45 pm



Quoting Diamond (Reply 6):
But this idea of having an "arsenal" at home is ridiculous.

Opinion. We all got 'em.

Personally, I don't see the need to have more than the four I have . . . each has it's purpose. That too is an opinion.



I know plenty of folks on both sides of the political fence that don't even blink an eye at gun ownership. Especially in Alaska . . . we all have 'em. Big guns, small guns, hunting guns, other guns, liberal, conservative, democrat, republican, independent . . . doesn't matter.
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davestanKSAN
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:45 pm

Well, I think I might fall into that category. I'm all for the Second Amendment as long as the said gun owners are responsible with their weapons. I really respect those who take gun ownership very seriously, as it should be. Guns can be fun, but with them come a huge responsibility, and those who understand that are of high value in my book.

I used to not understand guns, but with a little help from my uncle who is an avid hunter, and from reading some posts on this forum, I've beGUN (<----HA) to understand them, and their function in our society.

Dave
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Toast
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:58 pm

Socially speaking, I'm just about as liberal as they come. I also dislike guns personally, but I don't care if people keep arsenals at home. To me, it's just another nerdy hobby that for some reason reaches fetishism levels in some people.  Wink Accidental shootings are a problem, but gun violence probably wouldn't make it to my list of the top ten things that are wrong with America nowadays (I assume we're talking about the US here, as gun ownership is pretty much a non-issue elsewhere...)

"Liberal" and "conservative" should IMO only ever be used as a simple and convenient but very imprecise way to classify people. I haven't met a whole lot of people in my life who would conform to all or even most of the common leftist or right-wing stereotypes. Labeling the entire population using only two labels is six times dumber than classifying everybody by their sign of the zodiac, and equally unreliable.

On this forum alone, I can see plenty of people who voted for Bush twice but who aren't religious, homophobic, and can even spell correctly.  Wink Same goes for the people I might tentatively call "liberal" but who have a gun in every pocket and traditional views on race or religion. The enormous amount of possible combination of views, plus the fact that people change over time, means that "liberal" and "conservative" in fact mean only whatever you want them to mean.

And now, can we please repopulate Greenland with Democratic and Republican party card holders, and get things done seriously in the USA?  Smile
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n229nw
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:13 pm

Well, interesting.

I'm very liberal. I'd say gun control is one issue that A.net has actually led me to move my position on.

I used to utterly fail to see the pro-gun side of the debate at all. Having watched various rabid arguments here on A.net as they unfolded, I have moderated my position somewhat. I'm still anti-gun on a personal level. I never plan to have one, and I won't give my kids toy guns to play with (or other toy weapons, though) if I can avoid it, etc. Furthermore, I feel safer on the street and in certain other situations when I'm in a country where there are basically no guns floating around, and where even most police officers are not armed with guns. I also am in no way convinced that more people owning guns equals a safer country, a safer campus (anything but!) or a safer world.

On the other hand, I have come to realize that most gun owners are responsible (where the laws are reasonable), that they are legitimately interested in their guns for various reasons as with any other hobby or passion, that some people living in certain types of rural area actually need their guns in any case, and that, most of all, guns are not going anywhere. Given the way the constitution is written, gun ownership is a fact of life in the US. Though I have to confess I'd feel slightly scared letting my kids go play at a house where I knew there was a gun, unless I knew it was very safely stored, thanks to Freakonomics, I even realize that swimming pools are more dangerous in terms of numbers of accidental deaths than guns in houses...

So I basically think live and let live, within reason. I do think that gun laws should be tight enough that background checks and proper training are both required to legally own a gun.

PS: I still think Bowling for Columbine was a good movie...  razz 
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LHMark
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:22 pm

N229NW hit an interesting point. There's something about people who come across as "rabid" in their defense of the second amendment that can strike many other people as, well, unsettling. Maybe it's because the issue is less dear to them, but many non gun owners don't perceive the same level of threat to the second amendment that vociferous gun owners like Queso do. So sometimes, while defending their positions, staunch gun advocates come across as not only wanting to defend their right to bear arms, but as itching to use those arms on other people as soon as legally possible.

Now I know that isn't really the case (usually), but frankly it scares many people who don't have guns in their lives or as an interest. I think it's all about the tone.
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falstaff
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:31 am



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 4):
Try a homo liberal gun-lover I am all about having the right to own a gun.

If you were not already on my RU list you would be again.

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 7):
Well, some people (like my friend Todd) are military historians and/or hobbyists. If it's a serious interest, and it's legal to own them, that's cool.

Great example. I have 31 firearms and only two were made after 1945.
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Siren
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:40 am



Quoting Diamond (Reply 6):
I don't think that all guns need to be taken away from the population. But this idea of having an "arsenal" at home is ridiculous.

Let's just cut right to it... The Second Amendment: "A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

It doesn't say that you can't have an arsenal. In fact, the more who do, the more secure we are as a country. The Second Amendment was written with the intent of keeping homegrown despots in check. A despot can rise out of any democracy - and ours is not immune. This is a necessary check on the government, necessary for the security of freedom.

I am all for any and all gun ownership. I think that gun safety ought to be taught in schools, so as to lower the rate of accidental deaths - however restrictions are simply undemocratic. Yes, other democracies in the world don't have guns - but this was a right enshrined into the constitution... we need to keep any and all freedoms we have, for the sake of future security.
 
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falstaff
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:46 am



Quoting Siren (Reply 15):
I think that gun safety ought to be taught in schools, so as to lower the rate of accidental deaths -

Very true. Many young people don't really understand firearms. I have been an active shooter since I was nine. I learned about guns in Cub Scouts and scouts taught me about safety and respect for firearms.

Quoting Siren (Reply 15):
we need to keep any and all freedoms we have, for the sake of future security.

Another good point. Too many people want to take our freedoms away because they don't like a particular one. The only will complain about the removal of a freedom they enjoy. I will stand up for all of our freedoms because if one is taken away I don't like one I do like will be taken away next.
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EWRCabincrew
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:55 am



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 16):
Many young people don't really understand firearms

And adults. With ownership comes responsibility.
You can't cure stupid
 
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Siren
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:06 am



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 17):
And adults. With ownership comes responsibility.

Exactly. This is why we need to instill the very notion that firearms are deadly serious from the moment a child enters school. These things - lessons - will probably (hopefully) stay with them as they transition to adulthood, and usher in a new era of responsible gun ownership... which isn't to say that the vast majority of guns in America today aren't responsibly kept - most are. There's always the criminal element that ruins it for the rest of us...
 
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:33 am



Quoting Siren (Reply 15):
It doesn't say that you can't have an arsenal. In fact, the more who do, the more secure we are as a country. The Second Amendment was written with the intent of keeping homegrown despots in check. A despot can rise out of any democracy - and ours is not immune. This is a necessary check on the government, necessary for the security of freedom.

I am all for any and all gun ownership. I think that gun safety ought to be taught in schools, so as to lower the rate of accidental deaths - however restrictions are simply undemocratic. Yes, other democracies in the world don't have guns - but this was a right enshrined into the constitution... we need to keep any and all freedoms we have, for the sake of future security.

Oh....my....God.  Wow! My long lost sister has been found!!!!
 
diamond
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:58 am



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8):
Why does anyone have to prove a "need" to exercise a right?

I never said that. Or at least I didn't imply that the laws should be administered in an uneven way from one person to the next.

I really don't care who owns a gun. I was just pointing out the vast differences in the way people look at gun-ownership for themselves. Some people wouldn't feel safe without a gun (or several), and some people wouldn't feel safe with one anywhere near their home.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8):
I'm sure we wouldn't call Jay Leno ridiculous for owning a very large car collection.

Apples and oranges. Jay would have to work pretty hard to use his $2,000,000 Duesenberg as a weapon to hold people hostage, or commit a Columbine or Virginia Tech massacre.


Again, just because massacres and other types of shootings occur, I am not in favor of guns being removed from people. If the law allows you to own guns - then own guns. I don't care. Just keep it out of my house.
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ShakeZulaNJ
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:21 am



Quoting Diamond (Reply 20):
I really don't care who owns a gun. I was just pointing out the vast differences in the way people look at gun-ownership for themselves. Some people wouldn't feel safe without a gun (or several), and some people wouldn't feel safe with one anywhere near their home.

Spot on. I have no need for a gun, and have no plans on ever getting one. But, if you are a responsible, law abiding adult, then I'm not going to stop you from getting one if you are so inclined. And it's a bit reassuring that if I needed to, I could get a gun.
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miamiair
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:10 pm



Quoting Siren (Reply 15):
I think that gun safety ought to be taught in schools, so as to lower the rate of accidental deaths - however restrictions are simply undemocratic. Yes, other democracies in the world don't have guns - but this was a right enshrined into the constitution... we need to keep any and all freedoms we have, for the sake of future security.

 checkmark 

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 13):
Maybe it's because the issue is less dear to them, but many non gun owners don't perceive the same level of threat to the second amendment that vociferous gun owners like Queso do.

That is because the First amendment isn't going to be taken away. The Second has been a target for a very long time, and it has to be defended vigorously.

I enjoy shooting and with it comes a great responsibility. I secure my firearms where they cannot be accessed by minors. My family knows how to handle weapons safely, including my eight year-old son. He knows the safety rules, including not to touch anything when I am not around. He has his curiosity, and will ask to see something, and I will satisfy his curiosity. My brother has handed him a loaded pistol, and he has asked my brother to "make it safe." I watched this with interest as my brother removed the magazine and attempted to hand it to him; "open it so I can see the chamber." He knows that if he is at a friend's house and someone brings out a gun, he is to get out of there immediately.

This country was founded on great principles, such as those of freedom of speech, religion and assembly. But the founders thought it so important that we the people not be oppressed by tyrants, that they made the right to keep and bear arms the second. That is ahead of illegal search and seizures, the right to protect yourself against self-incrimination; so it is something I hold dear and will speak out against any infringements to any of our rights.

As for having an arsenal, some collect stamps, cars, coins, beer cans and airplanes; I collect firearms. I also have them to defend myself and my family. The police will not always be around to stop crime as it is happening, and when seconds count, the police is a few minutes away. That is not good enough for me. I have them, I carry one all the time, and it is just like the American Express card, "Never leave home without it!"
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eaa3
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:45 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 22):

As for having an arsenal, some collect stamps, cars, coins, beer cans and airplanes; I collect firearms. I also have them to defend myself and my family. The police will not always be around to stop crime as it is happening, and when seconds count, the police is a few minutes away. That is not good enough for me. I have them, I carry one all the time, and it is just like the American Express card, "Never leave home without it!"

Do you know that it is 20 times more likely that a member of your family will be shot with those guns than a criminal. It is 20 times more likely that through some accident a member of your family will die than a criminal.
 
Queso
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:59 pm



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 23):
Do you know that it is 20 times more likely that a member of your family will be shot with those guns than a criminal. It is 20 times more likely that through some accident a member of your family will die than a criminal.

You're new around here so we'll take it easy on you. I am going to tell you that you are incorrect and I am going to ask you to back up your statement with an unbiased source or statistic before I suggest your post be deleted. This point has been made many, many times here and has been shown to be false just as many times. You re a victim of media and special interest group miseducation.

Have at him, MDorBust.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:40 pm



Quoting Queso (Reply 19):
Oh....my....God.  Wow! My long lost sister has been found!!!!

I was thinking the same thing!

Quoting Diamond (Reply 20):
Just keep it out of my house.

Interestingly, another member here and I had the same conversation. Along with ownership of a weapon comes the responsibility as has been said. Part of that responsibility - and indeed part of the law in Alaska - is one must have permission to carry a weapon into another person's home. It's simple respect IMO.

Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 23):

 rotfl 

How do you spell n00b?
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ltbewr
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:49 pm

Generally, it is urban political liberals who most support considerable regulation of guns, especially handguns. They believe that there is a need to control guns, a major factor in violent crime they might be victims of. This causes major conflicts in some states (like New York and California) where urban areas may dominate the state legislatures, yet have substantial areas that are rural and where gun possession is for hunting of animals, defense of property and self protection as local police may take too long to get to enforce the law. Some states still have majority influence of rural populations so even if have large cities and suburbs, will have less regulation of guns. Often guns get into the hands of criminals for criminal use as purchased in those state with lesser regulations. Then too you have those running for political office who want to win and are 'liberal' so will comprimise on or not push for gun regulation to protect their chances.
 
MDorBust
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:03 pm



Quoting Queso (Reply 24):
Have at him, MDorBust.

Sir, Yes Sir.

The annual US average for accidental firearms deaths is between seven and eight hundred persons

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvacci.html
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html
http://www.nracentral.com/accidental-deaths-and-firearms.php

The annual US average for the defensive use of a firearm is two million.

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

800 < 2,000,000
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miamiair
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:09 pm



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 23):
Do you know that it is 20 times more likely that a member of your family will be shot with those guns than a criminal. It is 20 times more likely that through some accident a member of your family will die than a criminal.

Kind of hard for this to happen when they are locked in a safe. Where did you pull those numbers from?
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
eaa3
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:25 pm

Quoting Queso (Reply 24):

You're new around here so we'll take it easy on you. I am going to tell you that you are incorrect and I am going to ask you to back up your statement with an unbiased source or statistic before I suggest your post be deleted. This point has been made many, many times here and has been shown to be false just as many times. You re a victim of media and special interest group miseducation.



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 28):
Kind of hard for this to happen when they are locked in a safe. Where did you pull those numbers from?

I read it in the Guardian newspaper. I was wrong though it wasn't 20 but 22 times more likely.

"A gun in a US home is 22 times more likely to be used in an accidental shooting, a murder or a suicide than in self-defence against an attack. " From the Guardian on October 27, 2007.

Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2191022,00.html


btw. I may be new here but that doesn't make me naive or wrong. It doesn't sound much like you have your guns locked up in a safe, seeing as how you claim to carry one around....

[Edited 2007-12-01 07:29:11]
 
miamiair
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:32 pm



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 29):
It doesn't sound much like you have your guns locked up in a safe, seeing as how you claim to carry one around....

And it sounds like you have the common sense that God gave a fence post.

Both my wife and I both carry firearms. Both are kept in bedside safes at night. My pistol is not going to jump out of its holster and accidentally shot anybody.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
eaa3
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:38 pm

According to the article cited above there are 30,000 people who die from gun wound's, including from murders, suicides and accidents per year. It also claims: Since the killing of John F Kennedy in 1963, more Americans have died by American gunfire than perished on foreign battlefields in the whole of the 20th century.

So that's more people in the last 44 years from gun violence in America than the total American fatalities from WWI, WW2, The Korean war, the Vietnam war, Gulf war 1 and 2 and from all other foreign conflicts.

Then again people might think that 30,000 gun deaths a year is acceptable. Maybe it's the price we have to pay so that the king (queen) of England can't come over and boss us around. That is after all one of the main reasons for the second amendment.
 
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:41 pm



Quoting Queso (Reply 3):
So I'll sit back and watch how this thread plays out before turning into an all-out gun control debate- AGAIN!



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 23):

So it looks like it took 23 replies- I think that's a new record!

Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 29):
"A gun in a US home is 22 times more likely to be used in an accidental shooting, a murder or a suicide than in self-defence against an attack. " From the Guardian on October 27, 2007.

Source: [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2191022,00.html]

Eaa, that's a pretty idiotic source, they contradict themselves in one single sentence. From the article you linked to:

"An average of almost eight people aged under 19 are shot dead in America every day. In 2005 there were more than 14,000 gun murders in the US - with 400 of the victims children."

If an AVERAGE of 8 people under 19 are shot each day, that is 8 times 365 which according to my cheap pop-up Windows calculator equals 2,920 people. They go on to say 400 of the victims are children.

Furthermore, they never quote where they derived their statistics from. Essentially, they pulled them out of their ass.

Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 29):
btw. I may be new here but that doesn't make me naive or wrong.

No offense, but go back and use the search function to check some of the many other gun control threads and find some better sources if you plan to debate gun control here. Just a little advice, that's all.  Wink

BTW, everything you've written since Reply 23 has been off-topic.
 
eaa3
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:46 pm

Quoting Queso (Reply 32):


"An average of almost eight people aged under 19 are shot dead in America every day. In 2005 there were more than 14,000 gun murders in the US - with 400 of the victims children."

If an AVERAGE of 8 people under 19 are shot each day, that is 8 times 365 which according to my cheap pop-up Windows calculator equals 2,920 people. They go on to say 400 of the victims are children.

It doesn't specify what it calls a child. An 18 year old is not a child and furthermore you wouldn't call a 14 year old a child either. You would call them a teenager. Perhaps they mean that a child is under 13 years old. It's not a contradiction but it is nonetheless not well explained what they mean by saying a 'child'.

The Guardian is not exactly a bad source. It's one of the worlds most respected newspapers.

[Edited 2007-12-01 07:48:42]
 
Queso
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:55 pm



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 34):
It doesn't specify what it calls a child.

And it STILL doesn't specify where those numbers came from, either. Poor source.
 
N231YE
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:51 pm

I don't like to get into hot topic threads like these...but add me to the list that this thread describes. I am fairly liberal, but I don't care about guns. As long as a responsible person is behind the trigger, I don't care.

Personally, I don't have the heart to go hunting, let alone, injure an animal, but I love target shooting (nothing special, I just borrow my dad's Mossberg 500 .12 gage), just as much as I love archery.
 
IADCA
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:08 pm



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 31):
According to the article cited above there are 30,000 people who die from gun wound's, including from murders, suicides and accidents per year.

Alright, let's break that down. With suicides, a great number of those people would kill themselves even if guns were not present. There are plenty of ways for people to kill themselves, and while guns are admittedly the most effective way of killing oneself (sorry to be such a downer here), they are hardly the root cause of the suicides. What are labeled "accidents" in the study are more likely to be people getting injured/killed by their own negligence. That's different than an accident. A true accident is something that couldn't be prevented even with reasonable precautions. The people getting killed in gun "accidents" are almost all because someone didn't know how to be responsible in maintaining/keeping their firearm. Murders are the hard part. Guns do enable murders, in that they make it easier for a physically weaker person to kill a stronger person. However, a good number of gun homicides are committed by people who have clearly lost touch with reality, whether eligible for an actual insanity defense or not. The obvious solution to this is to make sure people like that don't have access to guns, and there lies the difficulty.

Having a lot of friends who are fervently anti-gun, I can see where they come from. What they're afraid of isn't the guns themselves, but the idea of people having guns who don't know how to use them responsibly. That category includes criminals, people with mental issues, and people who can't properly store their guns at home and expose them to being played with by children and such. Obviously, keeping guns from such people is the solution, but considering that the right to own a gun is a Constitutional right, infringing on it even for any reason is legally problematic.
 
MDorBust
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:55 pm



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 29):
I read it in the Guardian newspaper. I was wrong though it wasn't 20 but 22 times more likely.

"A gun in a US home is 22 times more likely to be used in an accidental shooting, a murder or a suicide than in self-defence against an attack. " From the Guardian on October 27, 2007.

Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/....html

Okay, let's do math.

Firearm murders, accidents and suicides equals roughly 30,000

Now for the math, which one of the following equations is true

30,000 => 2,000,000 * 22
30,000 < 2,000,000 * 22

2,000,000 still being the established (and documented mind you) number of times a firearm is used in defensive purposes every year. Therefore, for the Guardian to not be full of S***, 30,000 would have to be greater than 44,000,000. Clearly, it's not.

Want to try a source that doesn't blatantly fail basic arithmetic?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
eaa3
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:55 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 37):

Okay, let's do math.

Firearm murders, accidents and suicides equals roughly 30,000

Now for the math, which one of the following equations is true

30,000 => 2,000,000 * 22
30,000 < 2,000,000 * 22

2,000,000 still being the established (and documented mind you) number of times a firearm is used in defensive purposes every year. Therefore, for the Guardian to not be full of S***, 30,000 would have to be greater than 44,000,000. Clearly, it's not.

Want to try a source that doesn't blatantly fail basic arithmetic?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by those numbers. You can't just multiply two arbitrary numbers together and try to prove a point. Especially when those numbers seem to have nothing to do with anything. The figure I was writing about is specifically a statistic having to do with guns in homes and has nothing to do with total number of times a firearm is used in defensive purposes.

Do you have a source saying that 2,000,000 times is the number of times a firearm is used in defensive purposes every year.

btw. what does "used in defensive purposes" mean. Does it mean that 2,000,000 people are shot per year in self defense. Does it mean that 2,000,000 bullets are fired or does it mean that a gun is fired in self defense 2,000,000 times a year with mixed results.



I think that the reason "Liberals" don't care about gun control anymore is because they don't want the hassle. They know that the gun lobby has the entire Republican party in it's corner. They have given up on it because of precisely what is happening here. Because every time they start talking about gun control certain people become outraged. Certain people act as if it is a human right to own a gun. Certain people are so dedicated to this cause that they will not believe reasonable sources. Certain people have sunk so far into the belief that owning guns is a human rights that they will ridicule people for putting forth facts that they do not like. They will say that the sources are unreliable. Perhaps only Fox News is reliable.

I wanted to make this post about gun control to try to demonstrate exactly what happens if people try to bring up gun control.

Gun control is a third rail in American politics. Anyone that proposes stricter gun control is considered a traitor to the founders themselves. They are ridiculed by the conservative press and portrayed as cowards.

The argument for gun control is very simple: Thousands of people die each year from gun violence. We've tried keeping safe by pumping more guns into society but it has failed miserably. Let's try something else.


There are a few basic human rights. One of them is the right to life. Another one of them is not gun ownership.
 
miamiair
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:07 am



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 38):
They have given up on it because of precisely what is happening here.

They haven't. http://www.bradycampaign.org/

Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 38):
Thousands of people die each year from gun violence

And the majority is by criminals using firearms acquired by other than legal means. Best example, Washington, D.C. has some very stringent gun control measures, yet it has a high rate of firearm related firearms. Explain that one.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:56 am



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 38):
We've tried keeping safe by pumping more guns into society but it has failed miserably. Let's try something else.

You're entitled to your opinion. If you truly believe this, then you need to get to work organizing an amendment to the Constitution. The right to bear arms may not be a basic human right but it is a right guaranteed in the US by our Constitution.

Of course, it's a difficult and time consuming process, by very deliberate design thanks to our founding fathers.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
MDorBust
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:36 am

Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 38):
You can't just multiply two arbitrary numbers together and try to prove a point

They aren't arbitrary numbers. They have been clearly source.

Your contention is that a gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be involved in an accidental death than a legitimate defensive use.

Legitimate defensive use = 2,000,000 per anum
All gun deaths (accidents included) = 30,0000
You multiplier = 22.

Simple math. All gun deaths, accidents included (30,000) would have to be (Legitimate defensive use [2,000,000] times your mulitiplier [22]).

It is clearly not. Any way you slice it, two million is way more than all accidental deaths, criminal deaths and suicides. In fact, it's sixty-six times more likely that a firearm will be used in a defensive purpose than it is to be used for a criminal homicide, suicide, or accidental death.

Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 38):
Do you have a source saying that 2,000,000 times is the number of times a firearm is used in defensive purposes every year.

Yes, I did source it.

Read the thread please.

Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 38):
btw. what does "used in defensive purposes" mean.

It means that two million times per year a firearm is used in a defensive manner.

Seems pretty self explanitory to me.

Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 38):
Does it mean that 2,000,000 people are shot per year in self defense.

No. Not unless you think actually shooting someone is the penultimate result of every defensive use of a firearm.

Hint: It's not.

Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 38):
They have given up on it because of precisely what is happening here.

What would that be? A failure on your part to read the thread or understand basic math?

Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 38):
The argument for gun control is very simple: Thousands of people die each year from gun violence. We've tried keeping safe by pumping more guns into society but it has failed miserably. Let's try something else.

Alright, if that's the standard we are going to work on...

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/11856.php

In Hospital Deaths from Medical Errors at 195,000 per Year USA

That would be more than six times the number of total firearms realated fatalities per year. SIX times.

[Edited 2007-12-01 18:38:40]
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
dl021
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:04 am



Quoting LHMARK (Reply 13):
I think it's all about the tone.

I agree...the tone of conversation on the internet is not regulated by the natural inhibition personal contact brings and people feel free to be aggressive and outspoken, occasionally in very offensive ways. N1120A and I were just discussing how some people don't really see how they're coming across until they sit back and re-read what they said. There are also a goodly number of internet lions who turn into lambs in person, and their onscreen persona is where they let it all hang out....damn how anyone else perceives what they say.

It's also reflective of the general nature of the great discussion in our country, where the discussion is being replaced by one-upsmanship and accusation/counteraccusation mixed with distraction-by-soundbyte. People feel less impelled to be polite and find common ground, and more interested in proving that not only are they completely right, but they feel that in order to do so they must prove their opponents to be completely wrong, and evil for it.

If we ever find a way to get back to reasoned discourse and sincere efforts to find common ground and work ahead from that then we'll be better off.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Halcyon
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:29 am



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 41):

Alright, if that's the standard we are going to work on...

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/11856.php

In Hospital Deaths from Medical Errors at 195,000 per Year USA

That would be more than six times the number of total firearms realated fatalities per year. SIX times.

I think that many people who do not use firearms (responsibly of course) are given over to collective inferential error.

In the book "In Mixed Company," by J. Dan Rothwell (2007), collective inferential error is studied, as well as all the other aspects of groups and teams. He shows some interesting statistics:

"Including the Columbine shootings, there were 32 students and three teachers shot and killed in elementary and secondary schools between 1997 and 2001 (Lott, 2001). These involved gang conflicts, robberies, and accidents as well as Columbine-type events. During the same period, 53 students died while playing football for their school team (Lott, 2001). Of the 52 million public school students in the United States, fewer than 4,000 are expelled annually for bringing weapons of any kind to school. (p.234-235)"

Rothwell (2007) concludes that "Vigilance is appropriate, but vivid media coverage can distort our perceptions; precipitate overreactions, even panic; and foster faulty group inferences that greatly exaggerate the problem" (p.235).

I completely agree with Rothwell, and I think that we're seeing this distortion in Eaa3's post.

Just my two cents,
Lucas
 
N174UA
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:30 am



Quoting LHMARK (Thread starter):
Hell, I know "liberals" who love and own plenty of guns. Some of them are passionate hunters, too.

This is exactly why Sarah Brady and company have failed on a national scale. There are too many of her own kind who don't support her draconian measures to eliminate guns.

Let people in certain areas determine what works best for them on this issue. If NYC and SF and LA want to pass worthless feel-good laws, fine. But that doesn't work on people in other parts of the country like Vermont or Montana or wherever else. Trying to apply a blanket law that covers everyone on this matter is pointless. I think even Howard Dean said that in 2004.
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:17 am



Quoting Halcyon (Reply 43):
fewer than 4,000 are expelled annually for bringing weapons of any kind to school. (p.234-235)"

I wouldn't be shocked if this included elementary school kids caught drawing pictures of guns and the like.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
Halcyon
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:14 am



Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 45):

Or pointing your finger like it's a gun when you're in fourth second grade playing cowboys and indians.  Wink Some zero tolerance policies just show zero sense.
 
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n229nw
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:02 pm



Quoting LHMARK (Reply 13):
There's something about people who come across as "rabid" in their defense of the second amendment that can strike many other people as, well, unsettling

Like, errrm, this guy?

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/in...tag=generic_tag_guns&itemId=105785

Or this guy?

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/in...tag=generic_tag_guns&itemId=105785
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
N1120A
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:13 pm



Quoting LHMARK (Thread starter):
Hell, I know "liberals" who love and own plenty of guns. Some of them are passionate hunters, too.

Absolutely. My uncle is one of them. Socially, he is just as liberal as I am. I am far more economically conservative than he is. He owns a 12 gauge shotgun, a .45 and a hand made, flint lock .44. He is ready to plow through an attacker with that shotgun and has owned many hunting weapons and has hunted all over the US. Cool with me.

Quoting N229NW (Reply 12):

PS: I still think Bowling for Columbine was a good movie...

It was, it it wasn't necessarily an absolutely anti-gun movie. I think Moore's use of the Canadian example showed that.

Quoting Siren (Reply 15):
In fact, the more who do, the more secure we are as a country.

Which, of course, explains why countries in Western Europe are safer than the US?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
LHMark
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RE: "Liberals" Who Don't Care About Gun Control

Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:19 pm

Without hijacking my own thread by entering a debate on gun control, I just can't see how the idea of using our personal firearms as a defense against a tyrannical US government could possibly hold up anymore. Gone are the days that minuteman-style militias would fight somewhat on-par (at least, in terms of equipment) with government troops.
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller

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