miamiair
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Chavez And Venezuela

Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:53 pm

From YouTube.

Watch them in order:







With all his moves, HC is a menace. Plain and Simple.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
Queso
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:59 pm

I feel sorry for the citizens of Venezuela. I know some of them might feel positively about Chavez, but I really don't think he has the people's best interest in mind. Another loudmouth like the North Korean dictator that needs to have a sock stuffed in his mouth and repeatedly pissed on by a mad poodle.
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:15 pm

Crisis in the Americas
A Page Out of Washington's Propaganda Playbook on Venezuela


Excerpt:

"The movie, like a page straight out of the OPD, attempts to link Chavez to terrorism, drug-trafficking, violence, despotism, Cuban communism, stolen elections, the axis of evil, and "radical Islam" with quick sound-bites, Orwellian double-speak, and an association of non-related, but negative images and themes. Of course, there is no hard evidence.

It opens with the voice of US President George W. Bush,

"My fellow citizens, Americans have known surprise attacks, but never before on thousands of citizens... We are a country awakened to danger, and called to defend freedom."

Laid on top of the audio are images from 9-11, and footage from fighting in the middle east, as if attempting to make the subconscious connection from the first moment that somehow Venezuela is supporting terrorists, or perhaps had something to do with the 9-11 attacks.

Bush continues, "Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists,"

The screen zooms in on a map of Venezuela.
"

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=14228

As always, the usual bunch on this forum is more impressed with cheap propaganda and outright lies then with the actual facts. In that respect, nothing has changed during my voluntary absence from this board.  eyebrow 
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
PPVRA
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:21 pm

Well, I have very mixed reviews on the videos above. Interventionism is a very bad idea as it will only add fuel to the fire of the leftists, such as Chavez, Morales and Castro, and others that could rise in the future. It would only prolong the problem.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:35 pm



Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 2):

At the same time, it's hard to take your source very seriously when it was founded by a guy described as a "market abolitionist" and who promotes central economic planning. At least for me anyhow.

But I do completely understand and agree on where they came from with the comments above.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
miamiair
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:39 pm

It is all about common sense. Chavez and his policies are not cotton candy. It is a simple fact that he is curtailing the civiel liberties of the Venezuelan people.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
Queso
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:40 pm



Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 2):
As always, the usual bunch on this forum is more impressed with cheap propaganda and outright lies then with the actual facts. In that respect, nothing has changed during my voluntary absence from this board.

All I know is what I have seen and heard from Chavez, and I base my opinions on those things. Now, why don't you tell us who you consider to be "the usual bunch".
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:53 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
At the same time, it's hard to take your source very seriously when it was founded by a guy described as a "market abolitionist" and who promotes central economic planning. At least for me anyhow.

Not sure if you are referring to the site I linked to or to the author of the article. Either way, the article is based on actual facts (with a long list of references) and does not employ propagandistic tactics in order to impress its audience.

Quoting Queso (Reply 6):
Now, why don't you tell us who you consider to be "the usual bunch".

That's pretty clear, I'd say:

Quoting Queso (Reply 6):
All I know is what I have seen and heard from Chavez, and I base my opinions on those things.

The movie is full of half-truth and outright lies as the article I linked to indicates. And on that you are going to base your opinion? Just like that? No questions asked?

When you watch pure propaganda stuff like this and, what's worse, take it for real, your opinions are inevitably going to be affected. Already you are doing exactly what the makers of this movie wanted you to do, you are comparing Chavez to the dictator of North Korea, while completely ignoring the facts about the democratic election which made Chavez the head of state of Venezuela.

This movie was made by an organization which back in the '80's supported and defenfed military dictatorships throughout Central- and South America. They even made a movie back then equally titled "Attack on the Americas" but with a slightly different message when it comes to supporting dictators. I do not believe this organization (the American Security Council Foundation, formerly known as the American Security Council) is the most appropriate to warn us of dictators, either real or imagined!
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
miamiair
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:56 pm



Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 7):

You must think that the sunshine out of Chavez's ass every morning too.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
PPVRA
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:03 pm



Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 7):

Yeah I was talking about the website, my bad.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Queso
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:28 pm



Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 7):
The movie is full of half-truth and outright lies as the article I linked to indicates. And on that you are going to base your opinion? Just like that? No questions asked?

Do you really think the videos that were posted in this thread are the ONLY exposure I have had to Hugo Chavez and his rantings? Maybe you get all of the information you base your opinions on from a single source, but I don't. He's a wacko, he's a loudmouth and if you don't think he is maybe you need to broaden your own sources of information.

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 7):
Quoting Queso (Reply 6):
Now, why don't you tell us who you consider to be "the usual bunch".

That's pretty clear, I'd say

No, that's not clear. It's your trademark to make an insinuation like this without basis and not back it up when called on it. Tell us who you consider to be "the usual bunch".
 
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alberchico
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:37 pm

the video does seem to be very biased and filled with half-truths so I would not take it too seriously, but there are many here that claim that Chavez is in some ways doing more harm to Venezuela than good so I guess the truth is somewhere in the middle.
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
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LTU932
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:53 pm



Quoting Queso (Reply 10):
He's a wacko, he's a loudmouth

And with his rants, Chávez is not only putting the people in Venezuela, but also the people in other Latin American countries in danger.

Here in Costa Rica, we have to deal with Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega, who used to be dictator during the Sandinista Regime and has suddenly won the elections last year, on an agenda that sees him more as a reformist. But guess what, Schoenorama: Ortega hasn't changed at all! Just recently he invited Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to a state visit to Nicaragua, plus Ortega is a close ally of Hugo Chávez. It's only a matter of time until Ortega visits the DPRK as well. With Chávez's influence in Costa Rica's northern neighbour, and with a president down here who's the complete opposite of Chávez, it's no wonder that tensions between the two countries are higher than ever, and that is something that convinced me that Costa Rica should get away from its belief that having no military is going to keep them safe and that they should reinstate the army again, because this country needs to think of its own national security in these times. And let's face it: maybe Costa Rica was strategic to the Americans during the Sandinista regime, but nowadays, Panama and Colombia are strategically more important to the US in the region, and if Costa Rica was attacked by Nicaragua, the country would thus be a sitting duck.

But back on topic, Schoenorama, it is clear that by you living comfortably in Alicante, Spain, you have not seen enough to pass true judgement on Chávez. I live in Central America, and there are quite a few Veneuzuelans and Latin Americans who live all over the continent, who in some way or the other were exposed to Hugo Chávez's 21st Century Socialism (aka Neocommunism). Chávez has ordered the shooting of his fellow countrymen with live ammunition in 2002, he is now trying to seek indefinite re-election to become President for Life in Venezuela, and all those who oppose him openly become second class citizens, get their right to work and the right to a fair living revoked because they spoke out against Chávez, television stations that were critical of him are being shut down, and finally freedom of speech and freedom of assembly are no more. Didn't Spain have to go through something similar when the Generalisimo was still in power, Karel? Or did you skip that chapter in Spanish history?
 
Queso
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:27 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 12):
I live in Central America

Thanks a lot for your insight, LTU. Good post.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:18 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 12):

So in your opinion, will this upcoming election go fairly??

I know polling is showing that the people are opposed, but what if magically enough votes are "found" the day of the election to give Chavez the power he wants.

Will the people cry foul? Will they see it for what it was: fraud?

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
mia
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:27 pm

If I didnt have my first law school Finals on Monday I would do something to protest and show my discontent with this BS.

I hope Venezuelans revolt, but they wont.
"Like all great travelers, I have seen more than I remember, and remember more than I have seen."
 
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LTU932
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:29 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 15):
So in your opinion, will this upcoming election go fairly??

Absolutely not. Chávez isn't someone who's going to play clean. He'll find a way to manipulate the results in such a way that people will have a hard time crying foul play.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 15):
what if magically enough votes are "found" the day of the election to give Chavez the power he wants.

Chávez already "bribed" the poorer into voting for him during the previous presidential election by serving them soups and other things, so the poor will be critical.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 15):
Will the people cry foul?

Let me put it this way: If Chávez loses the referendum, either it will be he who will cry fouplay, or he accepts the result while he gets the people from the Electoral commision to declare it null and void and have a re-vote. That being said, if he wins the vote, then the people will have a hard time to cry foulplay without getting beaten up by police and military. Those who go on TV to express their rejection for the result will, if they are Venezuelans, become second class citizen and will have any chance of a reasonable living stripped away, just as it happened with those who demanded the recall around 2004 and lost the recall. Being a second class citizen in Venezuela is probably almost the same as being a persona non grata.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 15):
Will they see it for what it was: fraud?

I hope so, however I'm afraid that they're opinion will be nothing but a sidenote in the Venezuelan press if Chávez wins the referendum.
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:36 pm



Quoting Boomerang (Reply 2):
In that respect, nothing has changed during my voluntary absence from this board.

Volunatry absence?  Wink
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
Queso
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:44 pm



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 20):
Boomerang

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:59 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 8):
You must think that the sunshine out of Chavez's ass every morning too.

No, I dont. Suprised?

Quoting Queso (Reply 10):
Do you really think the videos that were posted in this thread are the ONLY exposure I have had to Hugo Chavez and his rantings? Maybe you get all of the information you base your opinions on from a single source, but I don't.

No, I dont think those videos are your ONLY exposure. There's been lots of media reports lately about Chavez and Venezuela, and most of them treat Chavez in much the same way as this movie does. Funny how there isnt such a media uproar about actual dictators, like Musharraf or Putin, to name just two. I guess the popular phrase "you are either with us or against us" does not distinguish dictators from democratically elected heads of state.

Quoting Queso (Reply 10):
He's a wacko, he's a loudmouth and if you don't think he is maybe you need to broaden your own sources of information.

Of course he is a wacko! But come to think of it, I can think of some other democratically elected wacko's! In your first reply in this thread you stated that you 'felt sorry for the people of Venezuela and that you knew that some of them might feel positively about Chavez. Presidents do not get elected democratically when just "some of the people" feel positively about them! 56,2% of the votes in the elections of 1998 cannot be considered as "some people". In the 2004 'recall vote', 59% of the votes were for Chavez, again a number which cannot be simply expressed as "some people". In the 2006 elections, certified by the Organization of American States (OAS) and the Carter Center, an even higher number of the people of Venezuela voted for Chavez: 63%.

The only reason why there is all this hype lately about Chavez and Venezuela is because of Chavez' political leaning. There are many real undemocratically elected dictators in the world today who have committed and continue to commit far worse attrocities then the ones skillfully (but wrongfully) attributed in this particular video to Chavez, and who unfortunately do not get the media attention they deserve. And the only reason why We, the West, do not want to hear about these real dictators is because we need their oil or they serve us for other economical and/or political interests. In all those instances, our well-being is far more important to us then, often quite literally, the lives of a few million oppressed Saudi­s/Pakistanis/fill in whatever population we ignore for the sake of our own well-being.

Hypocrisy at its finest!

Quoting Queso (Reply 10):
No, that's not clear. It's your trademark to make an insinuation like this without basis and not back it up when called on it. Tell us who you consider to be "the usual bunch".

It wasn't an insinuation, it was simply a remark. And yes, congratulations, you are included in that "usual bunch".

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 12):
Here in Costa Rica, we have to deal with Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega, who used to be dictator during the Sandinista Regime

Is that the same Sandinista Regime which removed dictator Anastasio Somoza Debayle in a popular rebelion?

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 12):
But guess what, Schoenorama: Ortega hasn't changed at all!

Does that mean you'd prefer to live under an undemocratically elected dictator, like Somoza was?

In democratic countries, general elections never mean that 100% of the voters are going to be happy with the outcome. That does not happen in the US, not in Spain, not in Venezuela and not in Costa Rica either. There are always going to be people not happy with the results. That's how democracy works. You obviously do not like Daniel Ortega very much but he won the democratic elections none the less. Same happens with Chavez: he won, repeatedly. What we are seeing right now, and this video is a clear example of it (given also the particular and peculiar history of the organization which produced it) is the very same tactic "the right" has used whenever they did not like, for whatever reason, the outcome of a democratical election: call the elected leader who you dont like a communist/terrorist/dictator and accuse him of whatever you like without worrying too much about actual facts; the media is gonna swallow it anyway. Should that not work, there's always Plan B: finance & arm the political opposition and dont worry too much about Human Rights and the loss of civilian lives.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 12):
But back on topic, Schoenorama, it is clear that by you living comfortably in Alicante, Spain

Is it that apparent?  Smile

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 12):
you have not seen enough to pass true judgement on Chavez.



Actually, I also spend some time in Caracas although not under Chavez.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 12):
Didn't Spain have to go through something similar when the Generalisimo was still in power, Karel? Or did you skip that chapter in Spanish history?

I actually skipped Spanish school alltogether.  Smile

There's no doubt on my mind that Chavez is doing some pretty wild things, some of which on a more then questionable democratic basis. But he is far from the brutal and dangerous dictator many who oppose him (for whatever reason) like to describe him. And I am convinced that had Chavez been right-leaning, none of these questionable democratic decisions would have dominated the media over the past few months (let alone deserve the 'honour' to have the above movie produced about them).
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LTU932
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:26 pm



Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 22):
Is that the same Sandinista Regime which removed dictator Anastasio Somoza Debayle in a popular rebelion?

No, it's the same Sandinista Regime that installed a communist dictatorship in a so-called popular rebellion, forcing thousands of Nicaraguans to leave their homeland either to the United States or to Costa Rica, and right now, illegal immigration of Nicaraguans continues to be a hot topic in Costa Rica and has not just resulted in the San Juan river patrol dispute, but also that both countries imposed a visa requirement on each other. Bottom line: Costa Rica is still living through the aftermath of that uprising.

Yes, Somoza wasn't exactly democratic himself, but that doesn't mean Nicaragua should have changed one dictatorship for another. Castro also came to power through a popular rebellion in Cuba, forcing the also not exactly democratic president Fulgencio Batista out of power, and yet he turned things from bad to worse, in a way not even Batista would have been able to do. What you're suggesting is that in the case of Nicaragua, the people chose the lesser evil, but little did they know that this evil was even worse than the evil under Somoza. In the case of Cuba, Sandinista Nicaragua and today's Venezuela, a lesser evil was replaced with an even worse evil. In a nutshell, while it's politically preferable to replace one evil with a lesser evil, what has happened in these cases was the exact opposite.
 
andessmf
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:44 pm



Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 22):
There's no doubt on my mind that Chavez is doing some pretty wild things, some of which on a more then questionable democratic basis.

And he keeps adding to that repertoire. The word we are looking for is 'precedent'. If a few years ago we would have told you that Chavez wanted to be a dictator, you would have laughed. Now that the proposed changes include the removal of presidential term limits, maybe you should take the warning signs more seriously.

As history tells us, Chavez is a 'follower' of Simon Bolivar. The same Bolivar whose overwhelming desire was the creation of a LatAm in the same vein as the US. Indeed, Colombia (google 'Gran Colombia') used to consist of Venezuela, Colombia, Panama, Ecuador and Peru. Chavez has already meddled in their local elections, and there are rumors of support for the Colombian FARC. Do we perhaps see a trend?
 
PSA53
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:00 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 5):
It is all about common sense. Chavez and his policies are not cotton candy. It is a simple fact that he is curtailing the civiel liberties of the Venezuelan people.

Well,this might interest you.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071129/...re_la_am_ca/venezuela_constitution
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:33 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 20):
No, it's the same Sandinista Regime that installed a communist dictatorship in a so-called popular rebellion

Yes, you are continuing the same propagandistic BS which gave the Contras so much support to fight the Sandinistas in the first place. Just call them Comunists.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 20):
forcing thousands of Nicaraguans to leave their homeland either to the United States or to Costa Rica

You fail to mention that those who fled the country and went to the United States or Costa Rica were primarily those who had previously supported the dictator and/or the Contras and who had benefit greatly from the oppresive regime. Somoza himself fled to Miami. I personally do not have any pity for those who supported ruthless dictators.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 20):
Bottom line: Costa Rica is still living through the aftermath of that uprising.

Costa Rica played an active part in the uprising: not only did it 'allow' the Sandinistas to obtain weapons through Costa Rica, it also hosted the "Puntarenas Pact" attended by Daniel Ortega, Moises Hassan Morales, Sergio Ramirez, Alfonso Robelo and Violeta Barrios de Chamorro (all representing their individual political parties except Violeta). This group formed the provisional government in exile.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 20):
Yes, Somoza wasn't exactly democratic himself, but that doesn't mean Nicaragua should have changed one dictatorship for another.

By no means can Ortega's rule be compared with any of the 3 dictatorial regimes of the Somoza dictators.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 20):
yet he turned things from bad to worse, in a way not even Batista would have been able to do

I dont agree there (but I guess you already knew that  Smile ). Given to chose, I'd rather live under Castro then under Batista.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 20):
What you're suggesting is that in the case of Nicaragua, the people chose the lesser evil, but little did they know that this evil was even worse than the evil under Somoza.

I did not say they chose the lesser evil. They chose what they wanted already a long time but never were able to achieve because of the historical backing by the US of Somoza and, later, the Contras. That all changed the moment Jimmy Carter became the US President. Obviously, I do not agree with your claim that what/who replaced Somoza was worse. The Somoza's had a typical dictatorial regime supported only by a minority (primarily the rich who through corruption amassed much of the countries economy). Opposition was dealt with swiftly and brutally, like in any dictatorial regime. It was Somoza who Franklin D. Roosevelt was referring to when he spoke his famous words: "He might be a son of a bitch, but he is our son of a bitch". Post-rebelion governments might not have been the best in Nicaragua, they can in no way be labelled worse then Somoza.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 21):
Now that the proposed changes include the removal of presidential term limits, maybe you should take the warning signs more seriously.

Real dictators dont bother to announce their intentions beforehand. They just do whatever they like. The only warning signs I have seen thusfar are the ones coming from those who are on the exact opposite political aisle as Chavez which, upon further examination (and not suprisingly), can at most be labelled as 'curious'. The day Chavez starts committing blatant genocide against his own people by starving them to death, or the moment he prohibits women from driving cars, that's the day when we all could thruthfully state Chavez' government is becomming undemocratic.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
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LTU932
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:52 pm



Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 23):
You fail to mention that those who fled the country and went to the United States or Costa Rica were primarily those who had previously supported the dictator and/or the Contras and who had benefit greatly from the oppresive regime.

What about all those people who tried to flee from poverty from Nicaragua under the communists, and still try to cross the San Juan river into Costa Rica in the search for a better life?

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 23):
Given to chose, I'd rather live under Castro then under Batista.

Suit yourself. I'm from Germany, so you should know how communism has affected our brothers and sisters in the East. I'm happy that I'm from the West, where we have experienced freedom and democracy ever since the founding of our Republic, while in the old DDR, people had to live off the whim of madmen such as Walter Ulbricht, Erich Honecker, and under the surveilance of the MfS (or STASI if you want). In the DDR, if there was even the suspicion that you were intending to commit "Republikflucht" (going illegally to the West) or that you're against the party, you would end up in a Zuchthaus for a few years. It wasn't until 40 years after the founding of the republic, 36 years after the bloody crushing of the July 17th uprising, and 28 years since the Berlin Wall was built that the people were finally able to assert themselves in the Monday Demonstrations and the mass exodus into Germany. People in the DDR had to suffer until unification in 1990, and some still do to this day. So, if you want to live in communism, that's fine with me. Just don't come complaining that you've been stripped of your civil liberties, because under communism, civil liberties are either highly restricted or non-existent.

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 23):
The day Chavez starts committing blatant genocide against his own people by starving them to death, or the moment he prohibits women from driving cars, that's the day when we all could thruthfully state Chavez' government is becomming undemocratic.

Where does it say that you have to commit genocide to be declared undemocratic? That has to be the silliest part of your post. Honecker and Ulbricht didn't commit genocide, yet they were clearly undemocratic, even though the name DDR means Deutsche Demokratische Republik, or German Democratic Republic, and thus refers to a republic under democracy. Then again, democracy was just a punch line for them. During any Volkskammer election, either the votes were forged in favour of the SED, or you could only vote Yes or No in a list made up of candidates of the SED led "Nationale Front".
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:27 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 24):
What about all those people who tried to flee from poverty from Nicaragua under the communists, and still try to cross the San Juan river into Costa Rica in the search for a better life?

Poverty is not an issue which just 'happened' after the rebellion. It already existed, quite extensively, under Somoza. The rebellion itself in part happened because of that extreme poverty. A 1980 literacy campaign installed by Ortega, after Somoza was outted, reduced the illiteracy rate from 50% to 12.9%. (1) Ortega's efforts to fight poverty in his nation were furthermore severely affected by the unilateral US trade embargo in 1985 and which lasted for 5 years.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 24):
if there was even the suspicion that you were intending to commit "Republikflucht" (going illegally to the West) or that you're against the party, you would end up in a Zuchthaus for a few years.

In that regard, there really wasnt much difference with Central- and South American dictators.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 24):
So, if you want to live in communism, that's fine with me.

I never stated I wanted to live in communism. I said that if I had to chose to live under either Castro or Batista, I'd prefer Castro.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 24):
Just don't come complaining that you've been stripped of your civil liberties, because under communism, civil liberties are either highly restricted or non-existent.

Civil liberties are also non-existant under right-wing dictators, like any of the Somoza dynasty.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 24):
Where does it say that you have to commit genocide to be declared undemocratic? That has to be the silliest part of your post.

That is because you ignored the full phrase which has lead you to misunderstand what I was trying to say. The video subject of this thread displays Chavez as some kind of dictator when quite the contrary is the case. If one really wants to denounce brutal and undemocratic dictators, then there's plenty of examples available throughout the world, like in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, without having to twist and distort the actual facts like this movie on Chavez has done.

It is always a good thing to denounce undemocratic behaviour and to spot the rising of dictatorial regimes as soon as possible. But we are nothing but hypocrites if we denounce via unsubstantiated half-truths and outright lies, democratically elected leaders with a different political stance then ours while we appease and allow true dictators in other parts of the world. Any dictatorial regime needs to be denounced, not just the ones we just don't like.

(1) http://portal.unesco.org/education/e...20da06be3c6a4e4c6dfeHanemann_U.doc
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andessmf
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:03 am



Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 25):

Allright, then tell us WHY Chavez is pushing for an end to term limits.

Eagerly await your response.
 
baroque
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:07 am



Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 2):
In that respect, nothing has changed during my voluntary absence from this board

And welcome back. I was not going to read the usual anti Hugo rants until I saw you had posted.

I guess the problem with Hugo is that he is not "our" (their more strictly) kind of nutter.

But it interesting to read from one of the posters here that feeding the starving poor a meal of soup is a heinous sin. Hmm!
 
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LTU932
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:19 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 27):
But it interesting to read from one of the posters here that feeding the starving poor a meal of soup is a heinous sin.

Feeding the starving poor with a meal of soup, in exchange for a vote in an election, is bribery. As said before: the poor are nothing but a means to an end for Chávez, and once term limits are gone and he consolidates his power, he'll forget about the poor and will let Venezuela become the Latin American equivalent of Zimbabwe.
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:19 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 16):
Chávez already "bribed" the poorer into voting for him during the previous presidential election by serving them soups and other things, so the poor will be critical.

= Every election people do sops for their constitutents. In some countries, people are "bribed" by "soups and other things" and in others, people are bribed by building million dollar highways to nowhere through pork-funding. On the other side, some people call giving a politician money "bribes", others called it "campaign donation". Its all the same.

Chavez is a total power-hungry populist. However, he is NO different than 90% of the leaders that Latin America has produced in the past.

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:22 am



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 29):
Its all the same.

Maybe, but the way I've seen it, Chávez has taken it to the extreme.
 
mham001
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:40 am



Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 7):
Not sure if you are referring to the site I linked to or to the author of the article. Either way, the article is based on actual facts (with a long list of references) and does not employ propagandistic tactics in order to impress its audience.



Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 7):

The movie is full of half-truth and outright lies as the article I linked to indicates. And on that you are going to base your opinion? Just like that? No questions asked?

I'm not sure why you are so focused on an obscure video produced by an even more obscure group. We can find far worse slamming the current US administration without any problem. Just look at any Micheal Moore movie. Which raises the point, how long could you screen a movie like that in Venezuela without getting shut down or jailed?
 
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:47 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 30):
Maybe, but the way I've seen it, Chávez has taken it to the extreme.

= Extreme? Extreme my friend is those that suffered under Pinochet, Videla, Garcia Meza, Geisel, Trujillo, Garcia (Lucas and Langeurud), Duvalier, Somoza, Torrijos, Bordaberry, and the list goes on. Of course, the only difference was that they mostly supported elite interests.

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:55 am



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 26):
Allright, then tell us WHY Chavez is pushing for an end to term limits.

Eagerly await your response.

= Didn't Uribe change Colombia's 1-term limit in 2006? A rule that had been in place for 120 years. Chavez is no different than the rest.

-A.
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andessmf
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:56 am



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 29):
However, he is NO different than 90% of the leaders that Latin America has produced in the past.

Hmm...

I don't remember any other LatAm leader, except for Castro, with such an interventionist streak as Chavez has. Or better yet, ANY other LatAm leader that wants to totally eliminate term limits.

How about comments from Chavez supporters about the proposed term limit abolition.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 27):
But it interesting to read from one of the posters here that feeding the starving poor a meal of soup is a heinous sin.

That has never been said. The only issue about that that I have raised is that Chavez is providing comfort for the poor, only under state sponsored support. What about calls for making the economic climate in Venezuela better so these people 'learn to fish'.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:00 am



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 32):
Extreme my friend is those that suffered under Pinochet, Videla, Garcia Meza, Geisel, Trujillo, Garcia (Lucas and Langeurud), Duvalier, Somoza, Torrijos, Bordaberry, and the list goes on.

I was not comparing Chávez with other South American dictators. What I meant by extreme is that he's taking a certain policy to the extreme when compared to other Latin American and even US and European politicians, which in this particular example is his current support for the poor and him convincing them to vote for him by serving them soups and starting up programmes that are bound not to last. I'm not counting the crackdown on dissent that he's launched, because apart from the shooting in Miraflores back in 02, he hasn't had people "disappear" so far or at least such incidents have not been mentioned in the media yet, even though he may start with such drastic action some time in the future.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:06 am



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 33):
Didn't Uribe change Colombia's 1-term limit in 2006? A rule that had been in place for 120 years. Chavez is no different than the rest.

The difference between Uribe and Chávez is that Uribe isn't intending on abolishing any term limits. Also, since you bring this up, Oscar Arias also fought against the old term limit that started in the 1970 Figueres Administration, which limits presidential terms from 2 non-consecutive (now if you become president here, you can be reelected only once, but you have to wait 8 years from the end of the first term until being eligible for re-election, hence 2 non-consecutive terms) to only 1 term. He got that ban repealed by the Supreme Court some time in 2005 or so, which enabled him to become presidential candidate again.

What Chávez wants is to get rid of any term limits. And what Uribe and Arias did respectively is to simply extend it or repeal a previous ban as unconstitutional.
 
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:06 am



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 34):
I don't remember any other LatAm leader, except for Castro, with such an interventionist streak as Chavez has.

= And the point is?

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 34):
Or better yet, ANY other LatAm leader that wants to totally eliminate term limits.

= I thought I already replied in ...

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 32):
Pinochet, Videla, Garcia Meza, Geisel, Trujillo, Garcia (Lucas and Langeurud), Duvalier, Somoza, Torrijos, Bordaberry, and the list goes on.

... besides, Uribe has done it once. He will probably run for a 3rd term ... see, no difference.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 34):
That has never been said. The only issue about that that I have raised is that Chavez is providing comfort for the poor, only under state sponsored support. What about calls for making the economic climate in Venezuela better so these people 'learn to fish'.

= What does that even mean? Comfort for the poor always comes from "state sponsored support". Who else would support it? The elite who created the inequality prior to Chavez. You do bring one good point though ... the "learn to fish" argument ... unfortunately again, Chavez is not special. Look at Gabon, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait, Iran, etc. ... oil blinds you to the fact that you should use the wealth to benefit all and not just give handouts.

Cheers,
A.

PS: Luis already understand this I hope ... but I am not a fan of Chavez. I am just amused that people on the right give him so much credit when he is no different from the tyrants of the past.
Live, and let live.
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:10 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 35):
was not comparing Chávez with other South American dictators. What I meant by extreme is that he's taking a certain policy to the extreme when compared to other Latin American and even US and European politicians, which in this particular example is his current support for the poor and him convincing them to vote for him by serving them soups and starting up programmes that are bound not to last.

= He is feeding people through soup kitchens is extreme ... but building near billion dollar bridges to nowhere to help certain people have super nice jobs is not extreme. I guess we have different ideological definitions of relative good and bad. Moreover, I am betting if other of these LatAm cronies had the money, they'd exactly what Chavez is doing. You cant really feed the poor during elections if your state cant support it.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 36):
What Chávez wants is to get rid of any term limits. And what Uribe and Arias did respectively is to simply extend it or repeal a previous ban as unconstitutional.

= If Uribe extends it again for a 3rd time, would you then change your tune? I am betting he will. Chavez is doing it once ... Uribe is smart enough to do it each time. Lets bookmark this thread and see who is right  Wink.

Cheers,
A.
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andessmf
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:35 am



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 37):
I am just amused that people on the right give him so much credit when he is no different from the tyrants of the past.

I personally don't give a damn whether he is equal from the tyrants of the past. He is a present time pimple in S. America, that is affecting many other regions, including Ecuador.

And personally, the past is past, and is no justification for what HE is doing RIGHT NOW.
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:40 am



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 39):
I personally don't give a damn whether he is equal from the tyrants of the past. He is a present time pimple in S. America, that is affecting many other regions, including Ecuador.

And personally, the past is past, and is no justification for what HE is doing RIGHT NOW.

= No one is using it as a justification. He is a "pimple" only to a certain sector of the populaton ... usually rich and thats why its uncomfortable for those with access to air their grieviances.

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
andessmf
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:16 am



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 40):
usually rich and thats why its uncomfortable for those with access to air their grieviances.

I see, we have a socialist in our midst.

Let me then ask you, I'd take it you don't employ any servants in your house, then?
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:20 am



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 41):
Let me then ask you, I'd take it you don't employ any servants in your house, then?

= Nope. And, I have a big house  Smile.

Cheers,
A.

PS: Next time you are in CCS, AND I am there, welcome to come and inspect.
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b752fanatic
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:44 am

I just wish to ask, in this thread is Abrelosojos the only Venezuelan living in Venezuela that is sharing his opinions about Chavez? or are there any other members of this forum also that have shared their disgust with the Venezuelan President, actual present residents of Venezuela?

If not, I would tend to listen more to what he has to say (or other forum members that live there), since the others (Like me) only stand from an observational vantage point, rather than a true citizen and resident of Venezuela who is living in the country and not in the comfort of another part of the world.

I have seen how many forum members sometimes dismiss the criticism of the GWB administration from foreigners by saying that they don't live in the US of A, I just wish to know if the same terms apply here?

Any more actual residents of Venezuela that wish to share their side of the story? Thanks Abrelosojos you have given us first hand opinions in this subject since you are actually living there.
"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
 
PPVRA
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:46 am



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 29):
Chavez is a total power-hungry populist. However, he is NO different than 90% of the leaders that Latin America has produced in the past.

Then he sucks too, no different. It's nice people are finally standing up.

I think there's a lot more to it, though. Chavez has disrespected a lot of people. He has taken away basic principles of liberty and crossed government divisions of power. Standing up to a potential Pinochet isn't a bad idea.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 32):
= Extreme? Extreme my friend is those that suffered under Pinochet, Videla, Garcia Meza, Geisel, Trujillo, Garcia (Lucas and Langeurud), Duvalier, Somoza, Torrijos, Bordaberry, and the list goes on. Of course, the only difference was that they mostly supported elite interests.

He has certainly struck a nerve, and people are fighting him. I think extreme is about right.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 40):

= No one is using it as a justification. He is a "pimple" only to a certain sector of the populaton ... usually rich and thats why its uncomfortable for those with access to air their grieviances.

And of course, here lies the problem. I don't think most Venezuelans would really mind if oil was nationalized and used for all kinds of programs, but when a man gets elected and he starts stealing from one side to give it to another, in some cases controlling all means of production (virtual state-ownership) from the private sector, hurting people and their businesses and property because of vengeance, then people get irritated.

Take people's property (theft), liberty (slavery/serfdom), and/or life (murder) away, and you'll get a perfect storm.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:55 am

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 43):
I just wish to ask, in this thread is Abrelosojos the only Venezuelan living in Venezuela that is sharing his opinions about Chavez? or are there any other members of this forum also that have shared their disgust with the Venezuelan President, actual present residents of Venezuela?

= In full disclosure (and I dont think I have ever hidden this), I am from Liechtenstein ... and I live here. There are other Venezuelans on the forum ... some of them live here, and they do have a different perspective than mine. I respect it. However, I think the fervour of the Chavez vs. Anti-Chavez debate has led many to be detached from reality and perspective. This has happened at both sides.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 44):
Then he sucks too, no different. It's nice people are finally standing up.



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 44):
Standing up to a potential Pinochet isn't a bad idea.



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 44):
And of course, here lies the problem. I don't think most Venezuelans would really mind if oil was nationalized and used for all kinds of programs, but when a man gets elected and he starts stealing from one side to give it to another, in some cases controlling all means of production (virtual state-ownership) from the private sector, hurting people and their businesses and property because of vengeance, then people get irritated.

Take people's property (theft), liberty (slavery/serfdom), and/or life (murder) away, and you'll get a perfect storm.

= My friend. Re-read my posts. I dont think we are disagreeing. I agree with you. However, I dont think Chavez is anything new at it. The people you hear protesting many times against Chavez are the traditional rich ... many (and I have been reminded by Luis on this board that not all - thanks Luis) have got rich because they have exploited the Venezuelan population at large for so long. Pre-Chavez, one side stole from the other through virtual private monopolies and no way of social mobiloty ... not its the other sides turn. It seems it sucks more for some because the old rich have access to more sophisticated mediums than the poor.

Cheers,
A.

PS: Comparing to Pinochet is a tad unfair. But who knows ... I am a "socialist" and would have probably voted for Allende  .

PS2: Chavez vs. Anti-Chavez debate could continue longer than a telenovela on GLOBO. I am stuck here at the airport and going to get some drinks and meet people who have never heard of Chavez.

[Edited 2007-11-29 20:58:43]
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andessmf
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:58 am



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 42):
And, I have a big house

That's pretty rare.
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:01 am



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 46):
Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 42):
And, I have a big house

That's pretty rare.

= I know. They also make fun of the fact that I live in Altamira and take the subway. Social stereotypes are so overrated  Smile. People in CCS think I am weird. Who cares? I make my own rules.

Cheers,
A.

PS: I am modifying my offer for you to come check that I have no maids. I mean, the offer still stands ... but you have to help me clean now. After all, in my household, socialism rules  Wink.
Live, and let live.
 
andessmf
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:12 am



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 47):

I will always respect someone who stands by their beliefs. You and I well know that there are those socialists out there who cannot live w/o their help.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 47):
People in CCS think I am weird.

I would not doubt it.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 47):
PS: I am modifying my offer for you to come check that I have no maids. I mean, the offer still stands ... but you have to help me clean now. After all, in my household, socialism rules

Don't worry, I live in the US and clean better than most...except that we do get a maid to help us two days a week...after all, we have three little ones.
 
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alberchico
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RE: Chavez And Venezuela

Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:13 am



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 40):
No one is using it as a justification. He is a "pimple" only to a certain sector of the populaton ... usually rich and thats why its uncomfortable for those with access to air their grieviances.

That's the point I've been trying to make about Chavez. Despite some growing pains. there is still a chance he could change and do things for the better...
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !

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