seb146
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Religion And American Politics

Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:44 pm

I was raised in the United States with the understanding the government is officialy secular (no religion). So, why then, is religion so important in choosing a presidential candidate? As far as I know, all candidates in both major parties belong to Christian based religions.
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JGPH1A
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:12 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Thread starter):
So, why then, is religion so important in choosing a presidential candidate?

It's all part of the giant hypocritical self-perpetuating fallacy that all Americans are hard-working, God-fearing rubes who MUST have a hard-working, God-fearing President otherwise they'll all turn into Commies. It's all very 1950's and completely ludicrous. It's symptomatic of the social inertia brought on by excessive religious influence not only in politics but in real life as well - where nowadays in every other Western democracy most voters would run a mile if confronted by a politician who not only proclaimed his religious affiliation but announced he intended to govern according to his religious beliefs ("God spoke to me..."), American still embrace them. Not to worry, they'll learn...
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TheCol
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:25 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Thread starter):
As far as I know, all candidates in both major parties belong to Christian based



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 1):
where nowadays in every other Western democracy most voters would run a mile if confronted by a politician who not only proclaimed his religious affiliation

So are you two saying that it is wrong for religious people to run for office?
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JGPH1A
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:27 pm



Quoting TheCol (Reply 2):
So are you two saying that it is wrong for religious people to run for office?

No, it's wrong for people to vote for people who state openly that they will govern according to their bizarre religious tenets. Religion is fine as a personal thing, like stamp collecting or Star Trek. When it starts to intrude upon reality, it's time to get worried.
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N74JW
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:33 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 1):
It's all part of the giant hypocritical self-perpetuating fallacy that all Americans are hard-working, God-fearing rubes who MUST have a hard-working, God-fearing President otherwise they'll all turn into Commies. It's all very 1950's and completely ludicrous. It's symptomatic of the social inertia brought on by excessive religious influence not only in politics but in real life as well - where nowadays in every other Western democracy most voters would run a mile if confronted by a politician who not only proclaimed his religious affiliation but announced he intended to govern according to his religious beliefs ("God spoke to me..."), American still embrace them. Not to worry, they'll learn...

What planet are you from? That statement is the most generalized pile of bovine digested solid I have heard in a long time...
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Banco
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:33 pm



Quoting TheCol (Reply 2):
So are you two saying that it is wrong for religious people to run for office?

It is a bit weird that someone has to profess being religious in order to be taken seriously. At the last count, only Congressman Pete Stark out of the whole of Congress came out publicly saying he was an atheist.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:45 pm



Quoting N74jw (Reply 4):
What planet are you from? That statement is the most generalized pile of bovine digested solid I have heard in a long time...

Go ahead, prove me wrong. I'm all ears.
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N74JW
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:46 pm

Religious affiliation can bring in more votes... The whole 'birds of a feather flock together' affect...
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Klaus
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:46 pm



Quoting N74jw (Reply 4):
What planet are you from? That statement is the most generalized pile of bovine digested solid I have heard in a long time...

And realistic, too.

Religious professions of a politician and the indication that he would let religion determine his political decisions generally cast severe doubts on his electability over here. We've tried religiously motivated politics for millenia and found them to be a particularly bad idea. Recent events have only confirmed that judgment.

And GWB stating that god told him to invade Iraq is just a case in point.
 
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PA110
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:52 pm

Unfortunately, wearing one's religion on their sleeve is very much a part of modern American politics. Our country was first colonized by people who felt the Church of England wasn't "religious" enough for them. They were very much a dour bunch who couldn't stand the cheerfulness of England's Golden Age.
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JGPH1A
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:52 pm



Quoting N74JW (Reply 7):
Religious affiliation can bring in more votes...

No doubt. But the question remains, SHOULD it ? Do we want politicians imposing their arbitrary religious views on the whole of society ? Law and government should be about the good of everyone, not the few imposing on the many the strange and other-worldly nonsense the voices in their heads told them to. Deep religious faith, to me anyway, implies a certain lack of intellectual robustness, shall we say. Doing what the Bible/Minister/Holy Spirit/Pope/Fairy at the bottom of the garden says means you don't have to actually think for yourself - you divorce yourself from all moral responsibility (It was God's Will !). I'm not comfortable with politicians like that, I'm sorry.
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Klaus
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:56 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 10):
I'm not comfortable with politicians like that, I'm sorry.

Nothing to be sorry about at all. We've seen enough madness in politics for ages to come.
 
N74JW
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:02 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 10):
No doubt. But the question remains, SHOULD it ? Do we want politicians imposing their arbitrary religious views on the whole of society ? Law and government should be about the good of everyone, not the few imposing on the many the strange and other-worldly nonsense the voices in their heads told them to. Deep religious faith, to me anyway, implies a certain lack of intellectual robustness, shall we say. Doing what the Bible/Minister/Holy Spirit/Pope/Fairy at the bottom of the garden says means you don't have to actually think for yourself - you divorce yourself from all moral responsibility (It was God's Will !). I'm not comfortable with politicians like that, I'm sorry.

I agree with you 100%. It was the slam on what type of people Americans are like. Americans are not all like that, but a vocal majority are. If they want to believe that, it is their right. John Kerry lost the last election by not appealing to and even insulting the Christian right majority of voters. The candidates now are keeping issues of faith visible to attract the same element to get them elected. All the while focusing on the one thing that gets folks elected in the US, money...

The last time religion ruled the world, it was known as the dark ages...
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bwest
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:03 pm

I've always found it strange that a president constantly has to say "and may God bless America"... no politician overhere, not even from the christian democrats, would dare to say such a thing anymore. And which God should bless the US... just the Christian one, or some omni-god, one that embodies all religions. If it's just the Christian god, I wonder how members of the other religions in the US feel like?


I suppose for me god belongs in church, or at home, where you can worship whatever you want. I don't really think he belongs in the white house... or any other government residence...
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JGPH1A
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:09 pm



Quoting N74JW (Reply 13):
Americans are not all like that, but a vocal majority are.

I know that - that's why I called it a "hypocritical and self-perpetuating fallacy". This is a myth that the political machine like to cash in on, that religion is as American as motherhood and apple pie, and that Joe Sixpack and the missus can feel safe in the knowledge that their Commander-in-Chief says his prayers every night before bedtime. It's a total crock, and yet it persists, and it does Americans no favours at all.

Personally I don't believe it's even a vocal majority any more - I think it's a stubborn but ingrained minority who just won't let go of the idea that religion can somehow save the world, make everyone white, middle-class and well-behaved, and kill all the Commies with a plague of boils.
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cfalk
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:34 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Thread starter):
I was raised in the United States with the understanding the government is officialy secular (no religion). So, why then, is religion so important in choosing a presidential candidate? As far as I know, all candidates in both major parties belong to Christian based religions.



Quoting PA110 (Reply 9):
Unfortunately, wearing one's religion on their sleeve is very much a part of modern American politics.

It is indeed a peculiarity of American Politics, and one that I generally find distasteful simply because 90% of such religious profession is probably BS. The only reason most politicians see the inside of a church is so they can be seen doing so.

But at the same time, there is a great value to having someone who is genuinely religious in his personal life, even if NONE of his official policies or positions coincide with any religious agenda. Such a person would be less likely to be corrupt, for example (I know atheists will jump up and down at this - let'em).

But I ask that people here who hate religion recognize that being religious and being in full compliance with the separation of church and state are not mutually exclusive, especially in regards to Christianity, where such a separation was encouraged by Jesus himself. Islam is another matter, as Islam claims not only to be a religion, but a the basis of government and economics as well.
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Dougloid
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:04 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 1):
Quoting Seb146 (Thread starter):
So, why then, is religion so important in choosing a presidential candidate?

It's all part of the giant hypocritical self-perpetuating fallacy that all Americans are hard-working, God-fearing rubes who MUST have a hard-working, God-fearing President otherwise they'll all turn into Commies. It's all very 1950's and completely ludicrous. It's symptomatic of the social inertia brought on by excessive religious influence not only in politics but in real life as well - where nowadays in every other Western democracy most voters would run a mile if confronted by a politician who not only proclaimed his religious affiliation but announced he intended to govern according to his religious beliefs ("God spoke to me..."), American still embrace them. Not to worry, they'll learn...



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 10):
Doing what the Bible/Minister/Holy Spirit/Pope/Fairy at the bottom of the garden says means you don't have to actually think for yourself - you divorce yourself from all moral responsibility (It was God's Will !). I'm not comfortable with politicians like that, I'm sorry.

So tell me, sir. When and in what state of the union are you intending to cast your vote in a presidential primary or in the general election?
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:13 pm



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 17):
When and in what state of the union are you intending to cast your vote in a presidential primary or in the general election?

What, no vote, no opinion ? How is that "freedom of speech" ? I comment as an interested external observer. Feel free to contradict.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Klaus
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:22 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 16):
Such a person would be less likely to be corrupt, for example (I know atheists will jump up and down at this - let'em).

Atheists might complain because that simply has been found to be false - religious people apparently aren't any more morally upstanding than atheists are, they just use different conceits to cover up their own immoralities.

The outrageous corruption in all kinds of religious groups should be an immediate reminder of the vast gulf between claimed superiority in any regard and the usually much more sobering reality.

Atheists have no imaginary deity whispering commands or exculpations into their ears - their last resort is reason, which is most definitely disputable and open to examination and verification.

Which is why I'll generally prefer atheists over religious people in power positions, given otherwise similar impressions overall.

Tony Blair was another recent example of a devoutly religious leader screwing up, big time, while being led by his faith.
 
Banco
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:27 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 19):
Tony Blair was another recent example of a devoutly religious leader screwing up, big time, while being led by his faith.

Not sure you can assert that he was led by his faith - there's no evidence for that at all, but it is true that Blair was and is religious. Interestingly, all his advisors were anything but, and when Blair once wanted to end a speech with "God bless", they reacted with horror at how appallingly badly that would play with the public.
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Klaus
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:30 pm



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 17):
So tell me, sir. When and in what state of the union are you intending to cast your vote in a presidential primary or in the general election?

Since the US government puts itself above all citizens of this planet (most evident with the current one), making wide-ranging decisions affecting nearly everybody, without most of us having a vote about it, taking a keen interest in american matters is simply a necessity for anybody who's intersted in more than just his own front yard.

And discussing relevant matters with the people who do have a vote is another necessity - your decision has consequences, and not just for you alone as the past seven years have made abundantly clear. Power always comes with responsibility. No way around it.
 
Klaus
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:41 pm



Quoting Banco (Reply 20):
Not sure you can assert that he was led by his faith - there's no evidence for that at all

What's known about his religious feelings would suggest a link...

Quoting Banco (Reply 20):
but it is true that Blair was and is religious.

He even bizarrely converted to catholicism after his demission, did he not?
 
Banco
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:43 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 22):
What's known about his religious feelings would suggest a link...

Not necessarily. That's why I say "no evidence".

Quoting Klaus (Reply 22):
He even bizarrely converted to catholicism after his demission, did he not?

No, he hasn't. At least not yet. Though I doubt it would surprise anyone if he did.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
cfalk
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:15 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 18):
Atheists might complain because that simply has been found to be false - religious people apparently aren't any more morally upstanding than atheists are, they just use different conceits to cover up their own immoralities.

You are confusing people who claim to be religious with those who actually are. The truely devout will not advertise. He will not proclaim his faith. He will not have religious bumper stickers on his car. He will not send money to TV evangelists. He will not talk to you about religion, and even if you ask him, he will not feel comfortable talking to you about it in any detail. He will simply live his life as best he can, according to the tennents to which he holds dear, and he would be as likely to willingly break them as killing his own children.

Naturally, these kinds of religious people are virtually invisible, and I am not surprised you have not noticed them.
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Klaus
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:53 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 23):
You are confusing people who claim to be religious with those who actually are.

Not in the slightest, but your retreat is duly noted.  mischievous 

There are raving bigots both among theists and atheists, as are spiritually enlightened role models in either camp.

Being a morally upstanding person is not clearly correlated with religion, if at all. Even while the proponents of religion dearly wish that to be the case.

One particularly troubling aspect of religion is that the ultimate responsibility can be and often is transferred to an imaginary being and its imaginary intentions, shunning any personal accountability (Bush being a prime example again.).

Atheists have no such escape hatch. If they screw up, they are accountable themselves. No backup, no way out. Better think your stuff through yourself before you commit to any significant action.

Politicians need to hold themselves accountable and be ready to stand accountable to their constituency. And in such a position I definitely don't want anybody who'd try to wiggle out of their responsibility with religious pretenses anytime they've screwed up on the job.
 
cfalk
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:57 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 24):
One particularly troubling aspect of religion is that the ultimate responsibility can be and often is transferred to an imaginary being and its imaginary intentions, shunning any personal accountability (Bush being a prime example again.).

Atheists have no such escape hatch. If they screw up, they are accountable themselves. No backup, no way out. Better think your stuff through yourself before you commit to any significant action.

You again show a deep misunderstanding of religion.

Granted, some faiths do talk about fate, or that God is in control, not you. But Christianity (I pick that out because it is the dominat religion where you and I live), is 100% entirely based on personal responsibility and personal choice. You will be held responsible for the decisions you make in this life, regardless of whether or not you managed to not get caught by the cops. It is essentially as you describe atheistic behaviour, except that atheists fear no punishment if they do something sneaky enough to skirt the law or ethical standards.
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rfields5421
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:18 am



Quoting Banco (Reply 19):
Not sure you can assert that he was led by his faith - there's no evidence for that at all, but it is true that Blair was and is religious.

If a person is religious and truly a believer, then he is guided though his personal life by his faith. That includes the framework in which he views the world and he makes his decisions. You cannot have religious faith and not have it guide you in how you make decisions. Of course Blair was led by his faith, but I seriously doubt he was RULED by his faith.

You don't have to have religious faith to base your life on a moral standard - it just helps.

People of the US are no different on this matter than people in any other nation - they want their leaders to be like them.

Can anyone conceive of the national leader of Spain or France or Italy not being Catholic?

Can anyone conceive of the leader of Israel not being Jewish? Or the leader of Iran not being Islamic?

The people of the United States do not expect or demand their President be an active daily participant in his religious practice. Actually I think that would be a negative in US election campaigns. Americans like their president to assure them that God is on their side and that worship of God won't get in the way of watching a good football game.

Yes, there is an element in the US which wears religious faith as a banner to justify any action. Just like in Iraq, Israel or France or any other nation.

The nature of the US presidential election process requires that a potential candidate make a good showing in a few small states in the first couple months of an election year.

It's easy for any group to push an issue in those states.

Romney present an interesting challenge to US voters and their religious tolerance. Especially running against a candidate who is an ordained, but not practicing, minister.

Many people have no problem with the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints. Some think of it as a cult with a psychological hold over it's flock. Some people in Europe think the same way about the Church of Scientology.

Personally I don't think the people of the US will be comfortable enough with the LDS faith to elect Romney - no do I think a black or a woman can be elected president today.

I find the core beliefs of the Mormon faith strange. I was raised Roman Catholic in a Southern Baptist town.

My son joined the LDS church when he was 13. It was that or gangs and drugs. I'll take a strange religion which emphasizes family, clean living and a strong moral basis of a person's life.

The core beliefs are the same as my Roman Catholic upbringing, and most of the other moral people around the world - even those who do not believe in Christ.
 
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mariner
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:19 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 25):
except that atheists fear no punishment if they do something sneaky enough to skirt the law or ethical standards.

No, sir.

I'm an atheist, and I certainly fear "punishment" if I do something unethical - my own conscience.

mariner
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zak
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:29 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 25):
But Christianity (I pick that out because it is the dominat religion where you and I live), is 100% entirely based on personal responsibility and personal choice.

really? so how about all the concept of predestination and such?
apart from the theological case, it appears very common that people justify things by claiming it was commanded to them by god. christianity is possily the one large faith that has changed its face drastically every other century, unlike the other large fairy tale believers, but personal choice has never been a trademark.
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zak
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:32 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 25):
except that atheists fear no punishment if they do something sneaky enough to skirt the law or ethical standards.

this is a very typical christian or evangelical argument, i must say if the only thing that is stopping you from commiting something wrong is some sort of fear from the celestial threat and dictatorship, you must have a low opinion of yourself and your ethical integrity.

i wonder when i will go and murder rape and pillage, considering i have been an atheist and antitheist for most of my life, i guess someday satan will take over  Smile
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Dougloid
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:52 am



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 17):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 17):
When and in what state of the union are you intending to cast your vote in a presidential primary or in the general election?

What, no vote, no opinion ? How is that "freedom of speech" ? I comment as an interested external observer. Feel free to contradict.

Well, you start out with a super sized rant about how ...well, it IS sort of confused, but here it is:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 1):
It's all part of the giant hypocritical self-perpetuating fallacy that all Americans are hard-working, God-fearing rubes who MUST have a hard-working, God-fearing President otherwise they'll all turn into Commies. It's all very 1950's and completely ludicrous. It's symptomatic of the social inertia brought on by excessive religious influence not only in politics but in real life as well - where nowadays in every other Western democracy most voters would run a mile if confronted by a politician who not only proclaimed his religious affiliation but announced he intended to govern according to his religious beliefs ("God spoke to me..."), American still embrace them. Not to worry, they'll learn...



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 3):
No, it's wrong for people to vote for people who state openly that they will govern according to their bizarre religious tenets. Religion is fine as a personal thing, like stamp collecting or Star Trek. When it starts to intrude upon reality, it's time to get worried.



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 10):
No doubt. But the question remains, SHOULD it ? Do we want politicians imposing their arbitrary religious views on the whole of society ? Law and government should be about the good of everyone, not the few imposing on the many the strange and other-worldly nonsense the voices in their heads told them to. Deep religious faith, to me anyway, implies a certain lack of intellectual robustness, shall we say. Doing what the Bible/Minister/Holy Spirit/Pope/Fairy at the bottom of the garden says means you don't have to actually think for yourself - you divorce yourself from all moral responsibility (It was God's Will !). I'm not comfortable with politicians like that, I'm sorry.



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 14):
I know that - that's why I called it a "hypocritical and self-perpetuating fallacy". This is a myth that the political machine like to cash in on, that religion is as American as motherhood and apple pie, and that Joe Sixpack and the missus can feel safe in the knowledge that their Commander-in-Chief says his prayers every night before bedtime. It's a total crock, and yet it persists, and it does Americans no favours at all.

Personally I don't believe it's even a vocal majority any more - I think it's a stubborn but ingrained minority who just won't let go of the idea that religion can somehow save the world, make everyone white, middle-class and well-behaved, and kill all the Commies with a plague of boils.

who cares?

Why are you so invested in ranting about something that is, as you say, of no earthly value or interest to you? Are you an interested observer or a frotteur?

Do you have so little to complain about in South Africa that you've got to waste your time bitching about how stupid the American public is and how lame the people running for president are?

For god's sake, crack open a Tusker and think of something original to bitch about, fella. How about your freakin' neighbors?
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Dougloid
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:58 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 20):
Since the US government puts itself above all citizens of this planet (most evident with the current one), making wide-ranging decisions affecting nearly everybody, without most of us having a vote about it, taking a keen interest in american matters is simply a necessity for anybody who's intersted in more than just his own front yard.

And discussing relevant matters with the people who do have a vote is another necessity - your decision has consequences, and not just for you alone as the past seven years have made abundantly clear. Power always comes with responsibility. No way around it.

Klaus, this hardly passes for discussion of important matters. Nothing's going to get resolved here, except that JGPH1A is going to feel vindicated for some reason that escapes me, because surely an African can find plenty enough trouble in his own back yard to keep him occupied all the livelong day and far into the wee hours. So be it.

This is the mental equivalent of pissing your pants in a dark suit. You'll all get a warm feeling but nobody will notice or care until you start to smell a bit odd.

I've decided to caucus for Mr. Obama and vote for a Democrat in the general election-as I always do. Cain't do no more and anything that happens here ain't going to make me change my mind.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
cfalk
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:15 am



Quoting Zak (Reply 28):
really? so how about all the concept of predestination and such?

My example used Christianity, and Christianity does not assume anyone is predestined. Your own choices dictate your fate - that is a frequent moral from the story of Eden onwards.

Quoting Zak (Reply 28):
apart from the theological case, it appears very common that people justify things by claiming it was commanded to them by god.

Apart from a few cases in the Bible, I don't believe a word of it. Inspired by God, perhaps, or inspired by their own idea of God in others, perhaps.

Quoting Zak (Reply 28):
but personal choice has never been a trademark.

Try understanding the bible before making such statements. According to Christian Existentialism (the basis of my own belief system) nothing can alter the responsibility of individuals to seek to please God in whatever personal and paradoxical way God chooses to be pleased. Each individual suffers the anguish of indecision until he or she makes a leap of faith and commits to a particular choice. Each person is faced with the responsibility of knowing of his or her own free will and with the fact that a choice, even a wrong choice, must be made in order to live authentically.

Quoting Zak (Reply 29):
this is a very typical christian or evangelical argument, i must say if the only thing that is stopping you from commiting something wrong is some sort of fear from the celestial threat and dictatorship, you must have a low opinion of yourself and your ethical integrity.

As Mariner mentioned, one's own concience can also be a powerful guide. But one cannot forget that one is not simply born with a concience. It is formed from your experiences, as we saw with that kid in Omaha yesterday. Mariner might be a committed atheist, but his concience is based on judeo-christian values - the culture within which he grew up. Had he grown up elsewhere, his concience might tell him to behave differently.

The most common value in the world is what is commonly known as the Golden Rule: Treat others as you yourself would wish to be treated. Over the centuries, this rule has come to dominate and has been incorporated in every religion except one - Islam. Atheists have also adopted it, but I wonder if they would not have a different attitude if they grew up in, say, an Islamic culture, where the Golden Rule only applies to other Muslims. An atheist in such a society might easily mirror that sentiment, and his "concience" would then easily allow things like theft or slavery, as long as the victim belongs to some other social, political, or other kind of group.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:45 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 32):
The most common value in the world is what is commonly known as the Golden Rule: Treat others as you yourself would wish to be treated. Over the centuries, this rule has come to dominate and has been incorporated in every religion except one - Islam. Atheists have also adopted it, but I wonder if they would not have a different attitude if they grew up in, say, an Islamic culture, where the Golden Rule only applies to other Muslims. An atheist in such a society might easily mirror that sentiment, and his "concience" would then easily allow things like theft or slavery, as long as the victim belongs to some other social, political, or other kind of group.

This has to be the biggest set of horse dung I have ever read on airliners. If this golden rule was not adopted in Islam, I wonder how the Jews and christians flourished within the Muslim empires all during the dark ages of Christianity. Infact I would go further on to say that this golden rule was never exercised under the leadership of any christian kingdom, the crusades being the direct outcome of this.
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Dougloid
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:47 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 32):
Atheists have also adopted it, but I wonder if they would not have a different attitude if they grew up in, say, an Islamic culture, where the Golden Rule only applies to other Muslims. An atheist in such a society might easily mirror that sentiment, and his "concience" would then easily allow things like theft or slavery, as long as the victim belongs to some other social, political, or other kind of group.

An avowed atheist in such a society would likely suffer a severe beatdown and ass whuppin' par excellenxe.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
cfalk
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:56 am

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 33):
If this golden rule was not adopted in Islam, I wonder how the Jews and christians flourished within the Muslim empires all during the dark ages of Christianity.

They hardly flourished. They were and still are second-class citizens. If tolerance simply means discouraging the mass slaughter of those of a different faith, then today's Islam generally meets this standard more often than not. But, if tolerance means allowing people of other faiths the same religious liberties that Muslims enjoy, then Islam is fundamentally the most intolerant religion under the sun.

http://www.compassdirect.org/en/disp...page=&critere=&countryname=&rowcur

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1135947

http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Security/?id=1.0.1639121012

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...07125story_5-12-2007_pg7_22

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2007/12/04/AR2007120401823.html

http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=10953&size

http://www.inspiremagazine.org.uk/news.aspx?action=view&id=1905

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv...034896&ch=12/4/2007%207:07:00%20PM

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...ename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...?xml=/news/2007/12/02/wserb102.xml

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=14645

http://www.bosnewslife.com/asia-paci...itants-loot-christian-farmers-rice

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2577230.cms

http://english.pravda.ru/news/society/29-11-2007/101932-saudi_police-0

[Edited 2007-12-07 21:05:57]
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 35):
If tolerance simply means discouraging the mass slaughter of those of a different faith, then today's Islam generally meets this standard more often than not. But, if tolerance means allowing people of other faiths the same religious liberties that Muslims enjoy, then Islam is fundamentally the most intolerant religion under the sun.

And in most muslim countries this starting to be the case. UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, Oman, Bahrain, Malaysia, Morocco, Egypt, Lebanon and countless other muslim countries provide equal business opportunities to people of all faiths. There are countries which still follow a more racist version of islam propped by the very country you so proudly represent. Your islamaphobic rants seem to be getting more and more laughable as the time passes, mind you I noticed how you totally stepped over the question about the dark ages.

[Edited 2007-12-07 21:15:57]
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Emirates773ER
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:19 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 35):
User currently offlineCfalk

Thanks for the whole set of links but frankly it is not difficult finding a anti islamic news piece in todays media.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
kalakaua
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:43 am

As Alton Brown puts it, "Know what you're trying to do, stick to it, and do it well - 'don't betray your DNA.'" Many "Americans" nowadays are just wannabes.
Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion.
 
TACAA320
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:13 am



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 26):
Can anyone conceive of the national leader of Spain or France or Italy not being Catholic?

Can anyone conceive of the leader of Israel not being Jewish? Or the leader of Iran not being Islamic?

Really difficult to conceive.

"
The separation of church and state argument for removing all traces of Biblical teaching from public life and public land is a gigantic fraud. Why? Because there is no separation of church and state. Government religion is a fact in the United States. What is wanted by the government religion adherents is not separation of church and state, but exclusive rights for their religion. This is why attempts are being made to destroy Christianity.

What is the government religion? Auguste Comte (1798-1857), its French founder, called it the Religion of Humanity. The object of worship is humanity as a collective female entity. It is also called, Positive Religion. Certain well known Nineteenth Century writers, philosophers and clerics, who were impressed by Comte's philosophy and his intellect, promoted the adoption of his system in the United States. ... "

http://newswithviews.com/Erica/Carle5.htm
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
cfalk
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 36):
mind you I noticed how you totally stepped over the question about the dark ages.

The dark ages were centuries ago. We are more civilized now. It is, after all, the 21st century, not the 7th. Unfortunately, not everyone has recieved the word...

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 37):
Thanks for the whole set of links but frankly it is not difficult finding a anti islamic news piece in todays media.

Absolutely, and I would think that you might see a trend. Notice that I posted articles from places like Pakistan, India, Greece, Italy, Israel, the UK, Bosnia, and Russia, and I could find a whole lot more in a few minutes. This is not a U.S. conspiracy. Islam is becoming a worldwide bad joke.

Now, a question to you. What are YOU going to do about it? You and millions of other Muslims who have thankfully recognized that some of the more violent parts of the Qu'ran belong buried in the 7th century might not be ready to strap on a DuPont vest and blow yourself up, but you still bitch and moan about U.S. alliances with Israel and Saudi, and refuse to stand up to the rotten bastards within your own culture.

Radical Islam, which demands that Islam dominate not only one's spirituality but one's social, governmental, political and legal's standing as well as a standing order to subjugate the whole world to Islam by force, is incompatible with the modern world. The world is too small for the two of us. Either Radical Islam must die or Civilization must die.

[Edited 2007-12-07 22:21:44]
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
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mariner
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:10 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 32):
Mariner might be a committed atheist, but his concience is based on judeo-christian values - the culture within which he grew up. Had he grown up elsewhere,

Um - I haven't said where I grew up.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:46 am



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 30):
who cares?

Why are you so invested in ranting about something that is, as you say, of no earthly value or interest to you? Are you an interested observer or a frotteur?

Do you have so little to complain about in South Africa that you've got to waste your time bitching about how stupid the American public is and how lame the people running for president are?

For god's sake, crack open a Tusker and think of something original to bitch about, fella. How about your freakin' neighbors?

As Klaus said, what happens in America is of interest to everyone in the world - the US is the only superpower left, it matters who has his/her finger on the big red button. And many of us would prefer that he/she was not labouring under the misapprehension that a necessary precursor to the Second Coming of Christ is a nuclear holocaust.

I'm not bitching about how stupid the American public are, I'm bitching about how certain prevalent political myths reinforced and embellished by their politicians, paint the American public in an unfavourable light. The American public would be doing itself a favour by proving once and for all that these myths are just that - myths.

P.S. I don't live in South Africa any more, but I know we don't get Tusker beer - it's from Kenya. Way to reinforce stereotype, dude.
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Aaron747
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:56 am



Quoting Seb146 (Thread starter):
So, why then, is religion so important in choosing a presidential candidate?

Aside from all the other back and forth in this thread, here's what should be the answer: It isn't. The only times when it is are 1) when the voter themselves is consumed by demagoguery or 2) when the candidate in question is consumed by demagoguery. This is not to say that demagoguery is confined to those who wear their faith on their political sleeves, but it certainly comprises a large portion of folks who fit that description.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
GDB
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:39 am

Blair might not have hidden his faith, (though his press secretary famously said 'we don't do god'), but there is no evidence this influenced policy.
His wife is catholic and he might well convert, but he did not seek to change the abortion laws, it seems he is not a 'pro-lifer' in the US sense either.
In fact Blair is, what the Americans would call a 'Liberal' on most domestic issues.

Had Blair tried to campaign using religion, he would have faced massive opposition from his own party, who knew that this would turn off most voters apart from anything else.
But Blair was an anomaly in this regard, when very unpopular policies like Iraq happened, Blair's faith was used against him.

Myself, I find this whole thing with US politics and faith creepy, a cop out and irrational.
The only way to govern is through rational debate, evidence and with feet on the ground. Not from some imaginary friend in your head.
 
Doona
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:07 am



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 26):
Can anyone conceive of the leader of Israel not being Jewish? Or the leader of Iran not being Islamic?

Those countries are religious by their very nature. Can't really compare them to a country that supposedly has a separation of church and state.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 42):
but I know we don't get Tusker beer - it's from Kenya.

Oh, snap!

Cheers
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Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
cfalk
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:54 am



Quoting Mariner (Reply 41):
Um - I haven't said where I grew up.

You have a flag next to your name, so I made an assumption. I may of course be wrong.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Toast
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:21 pm

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 26):
Can anyone conceive of the national leader of Spain or France or Italy not being Catholic?

Sure. France is one of the least religious nations on earth, and Spain went 180 degrees on Catholicism in the last couple of decades. Sarkozy is a lukewarm Catholic of Jewish origins. Zapatero is hated by bigots for drastically reducing the influence of religion in Spain. In Italy, less than a third of the population goes to church on a regular basis. Atheists are openly present in the governments of all those countries. So no, it's nowhere near "unimaginable" that a non-Catholic leader be elected in any one of those countries. And the same goes for almost all so-called "Christian" nations in Europe.

As for me, any politician who publicly talks about his relationship with a mythical being, or utters "god bless" anything, is automatically added to my shitlist. Which explains why so many American politicians are on my shitlist.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 30):
who cares?

The entire world does. As JGPH1A and Klaus said, what happens in DC will have an influence on ALL of us. How can you expect people not to be interested in it?

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 30):
Do you have so little to complain about in South Africa that you've got to waste your time bitching about

Dougloid, you surprise me. Since when is one only allowed to think only about what's happening in one's own back yard? That's the kind of insular mindset that got the world into trouble. I for one have no trouble in keeping afloat of issues in several places at once... Do you? As a citizen of the world, I'll continue to take a stance on everything that's happening in it, if it's OK with you.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 31):
I've decided to caucus for Mr. Obama and vote for a Democrat in the general election-as I always do.

Thank you!

[Edited 2007-12-08 06:31:38]
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Emirates773ER
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:38 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 40):
The dark ages were centuries ago. We are more civilized now. It is, after all, the 21st century, not the 7th. Unfortunately, not everyone has recieved the word...

No sir, you are no more civilized than a bedouin in the deserts of Arabia. The conservatives in america have the technology but not the mind set to live in the mordern world, your mindset is still hell bent on the crusades which raises the islamaphobia prevalent among you and your ilk to alarming levels. When the president of the most civilised country on the planet tells the public that "God told me to invade Iraq", makes me think he is still living in the dark ages.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 40):

Absolutely, and I would think that you might see a trend. Notice that I posted articles from places like Pakistan, India, Greece, Italy, Israel, the UK, Bosnia, and Russia, and I could find a whole lot more in a few minutes. This is not a U.S. conspiracy. Islam is becoming a worldwide bad joke.

Yes I do and it is not really difficult finding an article against islam, is it? You cannot expect 1.5 billion muslims to act in the same way, there are bound to be lonies every where.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 40):
Now, a question to you. What are YOU going to do about it? You and millions of other Muslims who have thankfully recognized that some of the more violent parts of the Qu'ran belong buried in the 7th century might not be ready to strap on a DuPont vest and blow yourself up, but you still bitch and moan about U.S. alliances with Israel and Saudi, and refuse to stand up to the rotten bastards within your own culture.

We are going to do nothing about it, YOU have created the monster and not us. The fact that YOU have the audacity to come up to my face while supporting the most brutal regime in the middle east is a slap on the face of the very values you claim to stand for. The Saudi goverment was Your creation, YOU slept in the same bad as the Wahhabist and want us to change things? No way on earth. The gun is on you temple, and from where I see it, you were the one to put it there not the Quran. Get of your high horse and have a look at your failed foreign policy again, blaming the Quran is very easy, but blaming your own ilk is tough.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 40):

Radical Islam, which demands that Islam dominate not only one's spirituality but one's social, governmental, political and legal's standing as well as a standing order to subjugate the whole world to Islam by force, is incompatible with the modern world. The world is too small for the two of us. Either Radical Islam must die or Civilization must die.

Radical Islam is on the back foot and will always be, there policies can never lead the Islamic world forward and most muslim leaders are very well aware of this situation. This is a reason why there is exponential growth in countries practicing a logical version of Islam.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
TACAA320
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RE: Religion And American Politics

Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:02 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 42):
As Klaus said,



Quoting Toast (Reply 47):
As JGPH1A and Klaus said,

As Dougloid said

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 30):

who cares?

'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein

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