A346Dude
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R.I.D.E. Programs

Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:38 am

I'm looking out my window watching a R.I.D.E. program, and wondering how these are legal. I was under the impression police had to have probable cause in order to pull someone over.

I'm certainly not in favour of drunk driving, but why should police be able to interrogate someone without even a shred of evidence that person has committed a crime?
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bhmbaglock
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RE: R.I.D.E. Programs

Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:46 am

I think it's legal as long as it's applied consistently, i.e. no chance for profiling.

I used to own a house at a 4 way stop where the Police would often set up a roadblock on Saturday nights. All they would do is check the license and registration for every car and driver going through. Of course, they could also smell alcohol and/or MJ easily. They'd end up taking 4-5 people to jail per hour for various offenses, outstanding warrants, etc. It was pretty amazing to watch.
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greasespot
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RE: R.I.D.E. Programs

Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:24 am

No actually the Ontario HTA gives us specific authority to conduct Ridestop checks. We do not need to check any documents. RIDE programs are specifically for impaired driving so we do not run anyone unless we know there is a warrant or they are going to get a 12hr suspension or are impaired.

GS
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WildcatYXU
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RE: R.I.D.E. Programs

Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:25 am

What would you expect? We live in a province, where a harder start from an intersection can be considered a stunt and can cause to the driver a serious headache when observed by some cowboy cop. The R.I.D.E. checks just fit the picture. However, compared to takeoffs with screaming tyres and driving faster than posted limit outside city limits, driving under influence is really dangerous. Since there is no way to find out if the driver is sober without stopping him, I definitely don't object. Moreover, they won't let you blow into the machine, they just ask you if you drank some alcoholic beverage before driving. It's up to you how do you answer. Only if the cops suspect something, they let you blow into the unit. I've been stopped by a R.I.D.E. team several times (Bayly street in Pickering is a very frequent place for R.I.D.E. checks), the stop was never longer than 10 seconds.

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 2):
we do not run anyone unless we know there is a warrant or they are going to get a 12hr suspension or are impaired.

How does this 12 hour suspension work? The definition at the MTO's web site is quite vague. They only say that drivers who blow between 0.05 and 0.08 may be suspended for 12 hours. (12 hours bottle to throttle - coincidence?) So how does it work in real life? Everybody who's between 0.05 and 0.08 gets suspended or you conduct some further field tests to determine if the driver is safe to drive home? Does it give a criminal record? Is it reported to the insurance companies?
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greasespot
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RE: R.I.D.E. Programs

Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:49 am

They blow in the roadside screening device....if an "A" comes up they get a 12 hr suspension on the spot. If a "F" comes up they get arested for over .80mg operation and free ride in a police car to a brethalyzer test. The only time a person gets a number displayed is if they are .049mg or lower. Simple as that.

Plus I do not have to administer the road side test. If I believe beyond a reasonable dout that a person is impaired it is arrest for impaired driving and off to station for Brethalyzer test.

there are 4 offences in Ontario
over 80MG operation
impaired driving(need to see them driving for evidence of impaired operation)
refusal to provide sample
care and control...IE i find someone passed out in their vehicle behind the wheel in a parking lot or driveway.

all of them have an automatic 90 day driver's licence suspension...and if convicted an automatic 1 year prohibition and what ever the judge deems appropriate punishment.

I always tell a person to blow...at least there is a chance it may just be a 12 hr suspension. If they refuse it is treated the same as impaired.

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
MCOflyer
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RE: R.I.D.E. Programs

Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:50 am

Pardon my stupidity but what is ride programs?

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ScarletHarlot
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RE: R.I.D.E. Programs

Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:56 am

Reduce Impaired Driving Everywhere. The police set up a roadblock and at least talk to all motorists, looking for drunk drivers.

It is illegal in Washington State. I was surprised when we moved here that I never saw anything like RIDE and asked my cop friend. He told me you can't stop anyone here unless you have probable cause.

We ran into something similar in Australia - a police roadblock in the middle of the day, and an officer having every driver blow in the breathalyzer. Except they were looking for drink driving.  Smile
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lincoln
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RE: R.I.D.E. Programs

Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:04 am



Quoting ScarletHarlot (Reply 6):
I was surprised when we moved here that I never saw anything like RIDE and asked my cop friend. He told me you can't stop anyone here unless you have probable cause.

Funny thing is I was listening to the radio about a year ago driving through Columbus (I was between iPods and hate 'driving silent') and they were talking about where all of the DUI checkpoints would be.

When I got to the office I asked what the deal was -- I mean, doesn't announcing where the checkpoints are going to be just mean that the drunk people will avoid the cp? I was told (don't know if it's true or not) that for some obscure reason under Ohio law they have to provide public notice before doing a checkpoint-type operation.

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MCOflyer
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RE: R.I.D.E. Programs

Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:21 am



Quoting ScarletHarlot (Reply 6):
Reduce Impaired Driving Everywhere.

Thanks. I see those but it is rare if I get stopped as I am under 21.

Hunter
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skyservice_330
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RE: R.I.D.E. Programs

Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:11 am



Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 3):
Since there is no way to find out if the driver is sober without stopping him, I definitely don't object.

 checkmark 


The way I see it, if you have not done anything wrong (i.e. decided to get drunk/impaired and then drive a car), then you really have nothing to worry about; the cops will send you on your way. We know the dangers of drinking and driving and there are more than enough broken families out there to attest to the tragic consequences of it. I don't see RIDE as an inconvenience or violation of my rights. I see it as the cops doing what they have to do to keep the public safe from those who make stupid choices.

I was stopped by a RIDE check last night, coincidentally enough, as I was getting onto the DVP leaving downtown Toronto from the Adelaide on-ramp. The officer asked me if I had consumed any alcohol and I was truthful and told him that between 10:30pm and 2am (the time I was stopped) that I had consumed two beers. He asked me to park and turn off my car and advised me that he was going to administer a breathalyser test. I obliged (as I had nothing to worry about) and followed his instructions and followed him into the mobile office they had set up on the side of the road. I blew and, sure enough, the test showed that I was well within the limit to drive- 0.06- essentially, I was still 74% away from being illegal. He thanked me for being cooperative, took some information from my license for statistical purposes, and I was on my way. Overall, it was an interesting process as I had never been pulled over and asked to give a sample before.
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: R.I.D.E. Programs

Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:41 am

GS, the roadside screening device isn't a portable Breathalyzer? Is the Breathalyzer the only option or is there the option of a blood test? I know, the Breathalyzer test results are accepted by courts, but I personally consider a gas chromatography analysis of blood serum more reliable.
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ACFA
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RE: R.I.D.E. Programs

Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:44 am

Interesting that I just found this post now.
I just got pulled over by RIDE, my third spot check of this year.
They seem more common now. This time I had to blow into a breathalyzer but it didn't even register (as I expected).
 
ACFA
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RE: R.I.D.E. Programs

Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:02 am



Quoting Greasespot (Reply 4):
refusal to provide sample

If refusal to provide a sample is an offense in itself, why do the police ask the driver if he/she wishes to provide a sample? Wouldn't it be better to say that they are obliged to provide a sample or else be charged with refusal to provide?
 
greasespot
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RE: R.I.D.E. Programs

Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:19 am

blood is only used in cases when a person cannot provide a sample such as they are in a coma.

They are obliged to provide a sample but if they are no willing to not much we can do...not like i am going to hold them down and jam the test mouth piece in their mouth......drunks do dumb things....that is why there is a charge fail to provide.

a roadside screening device is not a brethalizer....just a tool that tells us we need to administer a official brethalyzer...that is why it only displays an A or F...we do not charge based on it.

oh we also use it for g1 drivers wh are supposed to have 0 blood alcohol content.

gs
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Maverick623
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RE: R.I.D.E. Programs

Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:34 am



Quoting ACFA (Reply 12):
If refusal to provide a sample is an offense in itself, why do the police ask the driver if he/she wishes to provide a sample? Wouldn't it be better to say that they are obliged to provide a sample or else be charged with refusal to provide?

Refusal to provide a sample is NOT a criminal (or civil, for that matter) offense, unless an officer obtains a search warrant from a judge... which usually takes longer than it does to sober up. In most states, when you sign your driver's license application, there's a clause you agree too that says upon refusal to provide a chemical sample (blood, breath, urine) your driving priviledges are automatically suspended for anywhere from 6 to 24 months depending on the state.

Hence why officers have to ASK. They'll warn you about the consequences of not providing the sample, and probably arrest you anyways if they find other probable cause (i.e., you step out of the car and fall flat on your face), however, without either a formal field sobriety test, a chemical test, or an admission of guilt, you will not meet the standard for a DUI conviction.
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Maverick623
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RE: R.I.D.E. Programs

Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:36 am



Quoting Greasespot (Reply 13):
blood is only used in cases when a person cannot provide a sample such as they are in a coma.

Here in Arizona, the new policy is to ONLY do blood draws, as they are the most accurate (Breathalyzers and urine test devices usually understate the amount of alcohol content).
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NeilYYZ
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RE: R.I.D.E. Programs

Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:50 am



Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 9):
I was stopped by a RIDE check last night, coincidentally enough, as I was getting onto the DVP leaving downtown Toronto from the Adelaide on-ramp

That's one of their favorite stop points. I've been checked there more times than I can count, never had a problem though. If you're honest about it there shouldn't ever be an issue. I don't care if they stop me every day, I'd rather they not have drunk drivers on the road. If you drove to a place and ended up drinking more than you thought (which has happened to me), just call a cab and leave the car parked overnight, it'll still be there in the morning.
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WildcatYXU
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RE: R.I.D.E. Programs

Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:19 pm



Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 15):
Here in Arizona, the new policy is to ONLY do blood draws, as they are the most accurate (Breathalyzers and urine test devices usually understate the amount of alcohol content).

This is why I wrote that I consider GC analysis the most reliable. There even are some columns designed specifically for BAC analysis. I'd be able to do it with our instrumentation though.

Skyservice_330 and NeilYYZ, you guys are just confirming my impression that drunk driving is rather a problem of my generation and older. Younger driver aren't used to it. But I may be wrong.

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 13):
a roadside screening device is not a brethalizer....just a tool that tells us we need to administer a official brethalyzer.

It still must be a similar design. Just not as detailed and accurate. But that's only a technical detail.
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NeilYYZ
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RE: R.I.D.E. Programs

Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:35 pm



Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 17):

Skyservice_330 and NeilYYZ, you guys are just confirming my impression that drunk driving is rather a problem of my generation and older. Younger driver aren't used to it. But I may be wrong.

I would agree with that. My parents have told me stories from when they were younger that drunk driving was not really a big deal at all. When it comes to going out in Toronto or here in Windsor it's normally public transit there, cab home, covers the bases that way. If I think there's even a remote chance that I might drink more than would be legal (ie. anything beyond a beer or two with dinner) I won't drive that night.

In all fairness I'm probably overly cautious because I do want to be a police officer, and any sort of impaired driving hit would completely ruin any chance I have at succeeding. Not to mention that, but people my age pay enough insurance as it is, I could never afford insurance if I had that type of ding on my record.
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greasespot
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RE: R.I.D.E. Programs

Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:17 pm



Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
Refusal to provide a sample is NOT a criminal (or civil, for that matter) offense, unless an officer obtains a search warrant from a judge

It is here and since we are talking about the R.I.D.E which is an Ontario acronym...you get to go to court you will get a criminal record if convicted just the same. Insurance companies treat it the same a impaired as well...

Actually most insurance companies treat be charged with impaired offences the same as a conviction. Takes some of the sting away when a person gets off due to a small error on our part.

GS
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WildcatYXU
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RE: R.I.D.E. Programs

Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:56 pm



Quoting Greasespot (Reply 19):
It is here and since we are talking about the R.I.D.E which is an Ontario acronym...you get to go to court you will get a criminal record if convicted just the same. Insurance companies treat it the same a impaired as well...

It makes sense. It would be very easy to avoid charges just by simply refusing the test. And if you would arrest the driver and request a warrant, until you receive it the driver's BAC could be much lower.

Nonetheless, the best way for drivers is to separate drinking and driving.
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yooyoo
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RE: R.I.D.E. Programs

Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:38 pm



Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 3):
I've been stopped by a R.I.D.E. team several times (Bayly street in Pickering is a very frequent place for R.I.D.E. checks),

Bayly and where ?...Brock?

btw, i have no problem pulling over for 30 seconds saying "good evening" to a cop and then be on my way. Get the idiots off the street and punish them. I still find it incredible that people still drink and drive.
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WildcatYXU
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RE: R.I.D.E. Programs

Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:42 pm



Quoting YooYoo (Reply 21):
Bayly and where ?...Brock?

In the valley around the Frenchmen's bay. It's between Liverpool road and West Shore Boulevard intersections.
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yooyoo
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RE: R.I.D.E. Programs

Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:50 pm



Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 22):
In the valley around the Frenchmen's bay. It's between Liverpool road and West Shore Boulevard intersections.

oh ya......somewhere where you can't see them till it's too late.  Wink
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WildcatYXU
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RE: R.I.D.E. Programs

Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:58 pm



Quoting YooYoo (Reply 23):
oh ya......somewhere where you can't see them till it's too late.

Absolutely. They always had a few cruisers ready to catch those who tried to turn around.
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skyservice_330
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RE: R.I.D.E. Programs

Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:36 pm



Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 16):
Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 9):
I was stopped by a RIDE check last night, coincidentally enough, as I was getting onto the DVP leaving downtown Toronto from the Adelaide on-ramp

That's one of their favorite stop points. I've been checked there more times than I can count

Given that it was 2am on a Saturday night, 2 weeks before Christmas, I anticipated being stopped. The on-ramp for the DVP northbound from Bloor, just down a ways from the Pizza Pizza, is also a favorite spot.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 17):
Skyservice_330 and NeilYYZ, you guys are just confirming my impression that drunk driving is rather a problem of my generation and older. Younger driver aren't used to it. But I may be wrong.

I'd say you are right. I grew up in Markham (about 30mins north east of Toronto for those who don't know- the burbs), as did my dad, and he can take me to cemetery's here in town and show me the people that died from drinking and driving when he was my age. Today, I can say that the majority of my friends treat drinking and driving pretty seriously. There really has been a shift in attitudes through generations.

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