57AZ
Topic Author
Posts: 2371
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:55 pm

New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:27 pm

Just received the news that the New Jersey Senate passed S-171, a bill that would abolish capital punishment and reduce the state's maximum punishment to life without parole. The bill will be presented tomorrow to the New Jersey House of Representatives where passage is expected. If passed by both Houses, the bill will advance to the Govenor's Office where it will be signed into law.

If this happens as expected, NJ will join a growing minority of states where the death penalty has either been abolished or a moritorium placed in recent years. New York State effectively abolished capital punishment when the state's previous statute was declared unconstitutional and no replacement statutue has been passed. Illinois has has a moritorium in place since 2000.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
QFA380
Posts: 2013
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:38 pm

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:33 pm

Just heard this on the news, a step in the right direction although New Jersery has never executed anyone (since 1976) and had 11 people on death row according to wikipedia.
 
PC12Fan
Posts: 1973
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:50 pm

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:37 pm



Quoting QFA380 (Reply 1):
although New Jersery has never executed anyone (since 1976) and had 11 people on death row

Atypical of a political statement - as an old friend of mine used to say; big wind, no rain.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
57AZ
Topic Author
Posts: 2371
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:55 pm

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:26 am

We should know what the final votes are by end of Thursday. At present, these are the states that do not carry out capital punishment: Alaska, Hawaii, Iowa, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, North Dakota, New York, Rhode Island, Vermont, West Virginia, Wisconsin and the District of Columbia. To date, the last states to legislatively abolish capital punishment are Iowa and West Virginia.

What may be more telling of the changing attitudes towards capital punishment is the fact that three states are conducting official legislative studies that will make recommendations as to whether they should continue to use capital punishment. Those states are California, Tennessee and North Carolina-all of which are borderline states. If California eventually abolishes capital punishment, that may well prove to be the tipping point in the national debate. If you look around, you can find a good amount of video from testimony given in the various state legislatures-much of which tears up the idea that victims of these heinous crimes get closure or justice through capital punishment. Weigh the evidence and make your own conclusion.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12362
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:23 pm

A variety of practical, financial, moral and political reasons are compelling legisgators in New Jersey to delete the death penalty and replace it with life without parole. NJ hasn't executed anyone since 1963. In many cases where the death penalty was given as a sentence, upon appeal it was converted to life without parole. One recent influence was a visit to NJ by Sr. Prejean, an anti-death penalty advocate, made famous in the film "Dead Man Walking". She spoke with members of the legisgature, the Governor (majority Democrats) and local church and other groups and may have been an important influence in this legisgation. NJ would become the only state since the 1970's to remove the death penalty law from thier statutes and the 14th state in the USA that doesn't have it.
I can understand and support this change, but I wish it was retained for mass or multiple murderers, those that kill law enforcement officers and political leaders. I also continue to beleive that the Federal government must have the the right to use the death penalty for Federal charges, including any terror acts, murder of high level political officials and law enforcement offcers.
 
57AZ
Topic Author
Posts: 2371
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:55 pm

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolis

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:25 pm

Update-the bill is being debated on the floor of the General Assembly at this hour. Motions to amend the bill have been rejected.

[Edited 2007-12-13 13:45:07]
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
57AZ
Topic Author
Posts: 2371
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:55 pm

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:48 pm

Update-Bill S-171 passed 44-36 for abolition of Capital Punishment in the General Assembly of the State of New Jersey as read. The bill will now proceed to the Governor's Office to be enacted into law. Since Gov. Corzine has indicated that he will sign the bill, it can be considered that New Jersey no longer has capital punishment.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
Toast
Posts: 1249
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:04 am

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:59 pm



Quoting 57AZ (Reply 6):

Congratulations. It's good to see some examples of progressive legislation appearing even during this dark era of the neocons. This is what politics should be about - not pandering to the masses, but courageouly affronting popular opinion when there are rational reasons to do so.

This is a victory for reason and for humanity - hooray New Jersey!  Smile
Shit Piss Fuck Cunt Cocksucker Motherfucker Tits
 
57AZ
Topic Author
Posts: 2371
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:55 pm

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:05 pm

It should be mentioned that there are additional states that have bills in the statehouse to abolish capital punishment-replacing it with a sentence of life without any possibility of parole or release. Hopefully, the move by the State of New Jersey abolishing capital punishment will provide some momentum to the stalled efforts in places such as Nebraska and Montana. I watched the proceedings via live feed-there were good arguments made by both sides and the presiding officers allowed for all opinions to be voiced.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:13 pm



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 4):
those that kill ... political leaders.

Why should that be worse than killing anyone else ? Politicians aren't THAT special.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
User avatar
yowza
Posts: 4275
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:01 am

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:14 pm

The less killing the better. End of discussion for me. I wish more jurisdiction would drop the death penalty.

YOWza
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:38 am



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 4):
A variety of practical, financial, moral and political reasons are compelling legisgators in New Jersey to delete the death penalty and replace it with life without parole. NJ hasn't executed anyone since 1963.

Although as a former resident of that state who grew up there and lived there through 1977, the state missed a solid bet when they did not execute Ruben Carter when they had the chance. Had they merely sentenced him to life without parole he'd still be in prison.

He's all yours, Canada. I hope you like what you got. We don't want him back, and the air breathes a little cleaner down here for knowing he's in your corner of the world.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
IAD380
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:34 am

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:18 am

Way to go, New Jersey! Finally, the effort to legislatively abolish capital punishment in the United States has achieved its first major victory. The courage and moral leadership demonstrated by the New Jersey legislature may provide the momentum for Maryland, Nebraska, Colorado, New Mexico, and Montana to enact pending legislation that repeals their death penalty statutes. Sooner or later, capital punishment will be abolished throughout the United States.

Slowly but surely, a growing number of Americans recognize that the death penalty is a failed social policy that offers no real protection against violent crime. Capital punishment is applied in an arbitrary and capricious manner. Only a very small minority of people convicted of premediated murder are actually sentenced to death in states that retain the death penalty. Most death sentences are reversed on appeal. Life imprisonment without parole is a harsh, but humane, punishments that is applied universally to all convicted murderers. Life imprisonment is cheaper than the death penalty, and it is certain that this punishment will be carried out. Abolishing capital punishment is more consistent with the democratic ideals of equal protection of the law and due process of law.
 
travelin man
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:24 am

I'm ok with life without parole instead of the death penalty. I hope they do the same thing here in California.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:34 am

Congratulations! A good step forwards. May others have the courage to follow suit.
 
57AZ
Topic Author
Posts: 2371
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:55 pm

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:46 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 14):
May others have the courage to follow suit.

Others are following suit as previously mentioned. That said, it may take them a little while longer to get there. I was once in favor of capital punishment but as I learned more about the criminal justice system and correctional management, my opinions shifted. Capital punishment is not uniformly applied, is used to coerce pleas of guilt to lesser charges and is statistically shown to have no mitigating effect on crime. In fact, during the era of public executions in Europe in the 19th century, it is historically acknowledged that crime would increase on the day of an execution due to the pickpockets and other petty criminals who would work the crowds.

Some of the State Assembly members on the conservative side accuse the supporters of S-171 of taking actions that might someday allow the eight men formerly on death row to be released. As one of the supporters correctly stated, there is a difference between simply eliminating capital punishment and allowing someone previously sentenced to death to be released. Their statement was that the men would simply be removed from a sentence of death, not that they would be given any opportunity to be released.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:15 am

"What a bunch of wusses, New Jersey! The more that fry, the better!"

Signed,
Texas
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Nuori5084
Posts: 105
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:25 am

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolis

Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:18 am

I am glad I no longer reside in that pit of a state. I think even less of it now!
Failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:20 am



Quoting Nuori5084 (Reply 17):
I am glad I no longer reside in that pit of a state. I think even less of it now!

I agree with you about Texas.  Big grin

As for Jersey, it ain't much, but after this, it's a sight better than Texas is.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Nuori5084
Posts: 105
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:25 am

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolis

Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:41 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 18):
I agree with you about Texas. Big grin

As for Jersey, it ain't much, but after this, it's a sight better than Texas is.

What society tolerates these days is just amazing. It's scary.
Failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.
 
IADCA
Posts: 1346
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolis

Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:40 am

Quoting Nuori5084 (Reply 19):
What society tolerates these days is just amazing. It's scary.

I'm not sure life without parole in a maximum-security pen is really "tolerates."

In any case, a lot of people outside the US and in some states promote what they claim is a strictly law and rationality-based (that is, based on clearly drawn rules) when it comes to criminal law, and then whine when the US (and certain states within) do otherwise. Yet, if you look at some other areas of law, American law favors more bright-line rules, and that varies between states, often in unpredictable directions. What this mess suggests is that this isn't about imposing "rationality," but rather on straight moralism.

What people don't seem to think about is that it's possible to rationally reform the death penalty without total abolition. Equitable senses of justice suggest that (at least to me) there is at least a certain subset of murderers who should be subject to capital punishment. The biggest problem with the application of the death penalty once you pass the moralist political theory goobley-gook that has little practical application in the US as of now (internally coherent though it is) is that
the death penalty is inconsistently applied. Some states execute too many people on too little evidence for many people's tastes. Those are the states that need to review their policies, most likely.

New Jersey, which only had eleven people on death row, clearly was committed to using it only in extreme situations. Most law is done ex ante; that's not true with criminal sentencing. It's retrospective judgment. So, I must point out, can you imagine what the hell those 11 people had to do to get on death row? Is this the kind of re-examination of the death penalty we really want? If you really want to reform the death penalty, isn't it a lot more sensible to concentrate on what reformers view as the worst offenders first?

This is a symbolic move. It expresses a political sentiment, but does nothing else. If reformers really want to stop the government from killing people, they need to get to Texas and Virginia and try to get those legislatures to do something. For some reason, I don't see that working. Here's where federalism is a big factor in social policy, like it or not.

[Edited 2007-12-13 22:44:12]
 
57AZ
Topic Author
Posts: 2371
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:55 pm

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:13 am

We might some new Bright Lines when the United States Supreme Court hands down decisions in Snyder vs. Louisiana and Baze vs. Rees. Synder deals with juror selection issues and Baze proposes that the three drug cocktail violates the prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment as provided for in the Constitution. That is the case which has presently halted all executions for the time being and perhaps the immediate future if the court does determine that some part of the execution manner is problematic. Some of the states that authorize lethal injection as the method of execution do not have an approved, alternate method. If the Court rules the three drug cocktail unconstitutional, those states will not be able to resume executions until a new law is passed that gives the state that authority and passes the legal tests.

Legislatively restoring capital punishment is rarely successful. New York's State Supreme Court ruled that their laws (as they existed) were unconstitutional and struck them down. No attempts to restore capital punishment have succeeded there. There was a recent attempt to restore capital punishment in Minnesota but it failed to pass in the statehouse. Michigan has experienced many attempts to reinstate capital punishment since they abolished it 158 years ago. All of those attempts have failed by miserable margins.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
Nuori5084
Posts: 105
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:25 am

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolis

Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:01 am



Quoting 57AZ (Reply 21):
Legislatively restoring capital punishment is rarely successful. New York's State Supreme Court ruled that their laws (as they existed) were unconstitutional and struck them down. No attempts to restore capital punishment have succeeded there. There was a recent attempt to restore capital punishment in Minnesota but it failed to pass in the statehouse. Michigan has experienced many attempts to reinstate capital punishment since they abolished it 158 years ago. All of those attempts have failed by miserable margins.

Of course not!

It's the way....society is today. The original punishment laws go way back before anyone would ever dream of it ever becoming such an issue as retreating from the idea of the death penalty.

It's like the notion of, "if it's not broken, don't fix it." Yet, we have to change the capital punishment laws suddenly when DNA forensic evidence is better than ever. We can now prove some is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt through DNA. BUT, we'll let them live because lethal injection is just oh so "cruel," suddenly.

I wounder how their victims felt at the time of their murders...I bet they would have chosen a lethal injection verses multiple stab wounds or being shot to suffer only for a few days to end up dieing from being taken off life support. Those poor convicted murders...let them LIVE. They deserve it, right?
Failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.
 
57AZ
Topic Author
Posts: 2371
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:55 pm

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:48 pm



Quoting Nuori5084 (Reply 22):
Yet, we have to change the capital punishment laws suddenly when DNA forensic evidence is better than ever.

That's debatable. There are rare cases where the best DNA testing can still leave room for reasonable doubt-twins or triplets share the same DNA. With the increasing numbers of multiple births, shared DNA will become much more common and DNA a much less absolute piece of evidence.

Quoting Nuori5084 (Reply 22):
We can now prove some is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt through DNA. BUT, we'll let them live because lethal injection is just oh so "cruel," suddenly.

DNA does nothing to remove reasonable doubt. It merely points to the fact that the person was probably at the scene-not whether they did the crime (except for rape cases). Yes, because we are a civilized nation of laws. This is what sets us aside from the banana republic regimes such as Iran, DRC, etc. Capital punishment itself might well fit the defination of cruel and unusual due to the disproportionate application and the rush to judgment.

Quoting Nuori5084 (Reply 22):
I bet they would have chosen a lethal injection verses multiple stab wounds or being shot to suffer only for a few days to end up dieing from being taken off life support.

Speak for yourself. Many would probably say otherwise.

Quoting Nuori5084 (Reply 22):
Those poor convicted murders...let them LIVE. They deserve it, right?

They deserve to live a life of fear and pain-that's what they've created for others. Frankly my belief is that it would be preferable to make them live out the rest of their days in general population where you have to watch your back every minute. Give me life without parole over death.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
IADCA
Posts: 1346
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:22 pm



Quoting 57AZ (Reply 21):
We might some new Bright Lines when the United States Supreme Court hands down decisions in Snyder vs. Louisiana and Baze vs. Rees. Synder deals with juror selection issues and Baze proposes that the three drug cocktail violates the prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment as provided for in the Constitution.

Right, these would be very narrow rules on juror selection really just builds on cases like Batson. It's about the use of peremptory challenges, not the death penalty per se. The Court could rule in the current case without really even extending anything. In any case, it's not likely to be a new bright-line rule. The use of race as a sole criterion for peremptories is already unconstitutional under Batson. The problem is that state courts read Batson differently. All this would do is even out the states that are reading it very narrowly.

Baze could simply get the three-drug cocktail declared cruel and unusual. While I doubt that the present Court will even go this far, it is possible the ruling could be so narrow as to force states to use a different drug cocktail; the briefs focus on the possible suffering caused by the administration of these drugs; while the Court could theoretically go nuts jumping off that platform, they won't. And if they hold this method cruel and unusual, what can states do? Go back to older, apparently more barbaric methods that nonetheless do have explicit authorization from the Supreme Court, such as firing squad and the electric chair. Many of the states that use injection now use it solely by choice, and never outlawed the use of the chair, for example. Therefore, they could just go back and pretty much start frying people immediately. Is that really what you want. Several states have explicitly prepared backup plans, such as Wyoming, which allows the use of gas, but only if the injection is declared unconstitutional.
 
57AZ
Topic Author
Posts: 2371
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:55 pm

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:03 pm



Quoting IADCA (Reply 24):
Therefore, they could just go back and pretty much start frying people immediately. Is that really what you want.

Possible, depending on the wording of the statute. My home state of Tennessee would probably have to pass a new statutue as the statute authorizing the use of the three drug lethal injection abolished the use of the electric chair for all offenders sentenced to death after the cutoff date in 1998. Only those convicted and sentenced prior to the cutoff date could be subject to the chair if the three drug protocol is outlawed. Of course, the states using the three drug protocol could simply change to a single drug protocol.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
MaidensGator
Posts: 848
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:02 pm

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolis

Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:43 pm



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 11):
the state missed a solid bet when they did not execute Ruben Carter when they had the chance.

 checkmark 

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 12):
Sooner or later, capital punishment will be abolished throughout the United States.

It already was thirty-five years ago....

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 21):

Legislatively restoring capital punishment is rarely successful.

Yeah right...  sarcastic  After the Supremes nullified the death penalty in 1972, 37 states legislatively restored it, all but a handful in less than five years....
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
57AZ
Topic Author
Posts: 2371
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:55 pm

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:22 am



Quoting IADCA (Reply 24):
Several states have explicitly prepared backup plans, such as Wyoming, which allows the use of gas, but only if the injection is declared unconstitutional.

Arizona also uses gas-last time was in the 1990s. Only problem with gas is that it's a much more complex procedure with more risks to the observers.

Quoting Maidensgator (Reply 26):
After the Supremes nullified the death penalty in 1972, 37 states legislatively restored it, all but a handful in less than five years....

Should have qualified that statement as applying to states where the death penalty has been legislatively abolished. Incidentally, there is one state correctional system that has never carried out an execution that immediately comes to mind. That is the State of Michigan. The last locally authorized executions occurred prior to Michigan's statehood in 1837. Then there was one federal execution at a Bureau of Prisons facility in 1938.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12362
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:26 pm

Governor Corzine will sign the repeal bill on Monday.
As others have noted, there is a good probability that lethal injection as it is currently used may be suspended from further use to execute in a pending US Supreme Court case. Then how do you execute anyone? In effect, the death penalty would be suspended nationwide in the states with it and perhaps even on the federal level for years.
As I noted in my initial post, a range of political, practical and moral issues have led to ending the use of the death penalty in New Jersey (those on death row would have sentences converted to life without parole), but I think 2 other factors are at play here:
The Innocence Project has saved scores of innocent persons who had death sentences. Many of those had virtually no defense counsel, no DNA testing, politically motivated prosecutions and effectively couldn't defend themselves. That there were innocents on death row in Illinois led several years ago the then governor of Illinois to commute the death sentences or even give outright pardons of a number of persons on death row.
You also have race as a critical issue as non-whites dominate those on death row way beyond their proportions in the general population. Ending the death penalty helps particularly Democrats gain votes among many black voters.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:46 pm



Quoting Toast (Reply 7):
This is what politics should be about - not pandering to the masses, but courageouly affronting popular opinion when there are rational reasons to do so.

So...you refute democracy when it suits you? What about majority rule? Do you believe that only applies when it doesn't offend you? Just asking.....

Quoting IADCA (Reply 20):
I'm not sure life without parole in a maximum-security pen is really "tolerates."

Life without parole.....is cruel and inhuman punishment. Being locked away in a maximum security facility is cruel beyond belief. No hope of freedom, no real opportunity to repay society, and nothing productive...all while forcing society to pay for continued existence. We're keeping them alive so we can torture them more by forcing them to live in an acknowledged horrific environment.

Executing prisoners who's crimes merit life imprisonment is more humane, less costly and simpler for everyone.

The possibility of mistakes leading to the execution of a prisoner mistakenly is less than the ones that send men to prison for life (due to the more exhaustive appeals process and technology today) and the deterrent effect of the death penalty is certainly more powerful than that of prison time.

Anyone care to refute that life in a maximum security prison is cruel and unusual punishment?
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
ShannoninAMA
Posts: 1211
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 1:37 pm

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:55 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 18):
I agree with you about Texas.

As for Jersey, it ain't much, but after this, it's a sight better than Texas is.

Why do you insist on bringing texas into Every Political thread out there?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 16):
"What a bunch of wusses, New Jersey! The more that fry, the better!"

Dang, you sure are funny.  footinmouth 
Shipwreck alert. Head on over to Airspaceonline.com.
 
Toast
Posts: 1249
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:04 am

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:01 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 29):
So...you refute democracy when it suits you? What about majority rule?

Not when it suits me, when it makes sense.

There is no such thing as total democracy. You're not asked about each and every decision politicians take, are you? Otherwise, only popular decisions would ever be taken. With every - EVERY - country in the world being populated mostly by idiots and bigots, letting the majority decide about everything all the time would mean a descent into barbarity very fast.

Unpopular decisions MUST be made when they make sense, even if only 1% of the population agrees or knows anything about the subject.
Shit Piss Fuck Cunt Cocksucker Motherfucker Tits
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:09 pm

I re-read my post and realize that it sounds harsh. But facts are facts. Life imprisonment is no favor to society or the prisoner. I further find it odd that the same people who insist on saving the lives of murderers are the ones saying that we should assume unborn children aren't actually alive until they hit daylight, even though they are completely innocent of anything.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 28):
The Innocence Project has saved scores of innocent persons who had death sentences.

The Innocence Project (which does good works) works not only on death row prisoners but prisoners serving life sentences. They've won upwards of a couple hundred cases....and been unable to disprove the cases of how many?

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 28):
Many of those had virtually no defense counsel, no DNA testing, politically motivated prosecutions and effectively couldn't defend themselves.

I do not have any issue making sure that the accused is provided with the proper counsel, and using technology requirements to prove cases where direct eyewitnesses or other hard evidence is not available, or even where they were as there are cases of eyewitness errors. Raise the standard to require multiple forms of hard evidence, but the appeals process weeds out most of the mistakes and injustices, and it can be made better.. But ending the death sentence because of mistakes made, mostly during pre-DNA testing era cases, is not the answer to making the system work right.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 28):
Ending the death penalty helps particularly Democrats gain votes among many black voters.

This is what it's all about. Politics overcoming what's best for our society.


I believe I understand the European nations reluctance to use executions since a great number of people were executed for political reasons during their history by the government, and since then it's been taught into the system to children that it's wrong and barbaric since that's how you make something stick in the minds of a society...inculcating the young through the educational system.

But tell me what's right about allowing a murderer, a person who intended to do harm and kill for illicit reasons, to live. What's right about society paying for this persons healthcare, food, shelter, protection, entertainment and whatever else it takes for the next 50 or 60 years?

What's right about putting that person into a system where he has to live with other hardened and incorrigible prisoners for the rest of his/her life having to survive the conditions known to exist in every prison system everywhere?

[Edited 2007-12-15 10:14:04]
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
57AZ
Topic Author
Posts: 2371
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:55 pm

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:16 pm



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 28):
The Innocence Project has saved scores of innocent persons who had death sentences. Many of those had virtually no defense counsel, no DNA testing, politically motivated prosecutions and effectively couldn't defend themselves. That there were innocents on death row in Illinois led several years ago the then governor of Illinois to commute the death sentences or even give outright pardons of a number of persons on death row.

Correct. To date I think that their number saved is over 200 persons-persons who were not only wrongfully convicted of murder but in many cases never committed any crime. Ex-Illinois Governor Geo. Ryan did the right thing by automatically commuting all death row cases to life without parole, based on his commission's recommendations. I do believe that a handful of inmates might have been pardoned after further investigation.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 29):

Life without parole.....is cruel and inhuman punishment.

Hardly. Every other civilized nation has it, so that definition is a bit off. Just because an inmate is locked up for life doesn't mean that they cannot be productive behind bars. If you're complaining about prisoners in your state being unproductive, maybe you need to contact your statehouse to get them to take advantage of the low cost labor. Instead of hiring a private company to make improvements at a park or on a state road, have inmate crews do the labor. $.30 cents an hour is far cheaper for the state than $15.00 an hour. Who do you think made your license plate or the furniture in your local university's library? Chances are they came from a prison workshop. In Texas, the state does not purchase fruits or vegetables fed to inmates from outside vendors. Why? They found that they can produce sufficient amounts of the necessary crops cheaper by growing them on their prison farms.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 29):
The possibility of mistakes leading to the execution of a prisoner mistakenly is less than the ones that send men to prison for life (due to the more exhaustive appeals process and technology today) and the deterrent effect of the death penalty is certainly more powerful than that of prison time.

If that were the case, there would be no need for organizations such as the Innocence Project. The burden of proof in our criminal justice system is beyond any reasonable doubt. Technology has not advanced to that point yet-DNA evidence can only give you a probability-never absolute certainty. Furthermore, it has been proven through exhaustive research that capital punishment has absolutely zero deterrence effect. If these statements were not true, than the panel that New Jersey installed would not have recommended abolition of capital punishment there. I should note that that panel was comprised of pubic policy makers, a police chief, academics, and representatives of victim's organizations.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:25 pm



Quoting Toast (Reply 31):

Not when it suits me, when it makes sense.

When they make sense to you? Or others?

Quoting Toast (Reply 31):
You're not asked about each and every decision politicians take, are you?

Sure I am...every time I vote. I'm asked whether I agree with what this elected official has done or do I want someone else. It's up to the voters in whatever form of democracy they live to wield control of their elected officials.

Quoting Toast (Reply 31):
With every - EVERY - country in the world being populated mostly by idiots and bigots, letting the majority decide about everything all the time would mean a descent into barbarity very fast.

Wow...so you're a member of the Illuminati? The elite intellectual class that should be given control of the world to the exclusion of the rest of us barbarians? You're correct in some cases. Look at what democracy has done for Zimbabwe. South Africa is seeming intent sometimes on destroying its minorities. But that's ok with you, isn't it?

Representative democracy is about electing those who will be leading the country and holding them accountable, not manipulating the system to suit the desires of a few who consider themselves better than the rest and unaccountable (like the people who changed the EU Constitution to a treaty so it didn't have to pass a referendum that they couldn't pass in some countries).

I agree with you that there is no pure democracy.....but I disagree that the majority are idiots and bigots...your statement that said so indicates your own bigotry and lack of consideration or use of your intelligence to reason rather than spout angry thoughts. You can do better than that.

Quoting Toast (Reply 31):
Unpopular decisions MUST be made when they make sense, even if only 1% of the population agrees or knows anything about the subject.

Unpopular decisions will have to pass the test of an angry populace if the decision is not one that will be supported. A democracy of any type must be composed of the willing and participating. We don't have laws that the majority of the population don't want, otherwise those laws don't last. People will not obey laws they don't support, and politicians will use those opportunities to replace the ones that made the unpopular decisions. A leader has to not only make decisions but he/she has to convince the followers that this is the right decision or the leader will be replaced.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:38 pm



Quoting 57AZ (Reply 33):
Hardly. Every other civilized nation has it, so that definition is a bit off

Nah...just because other nations have doesn't mean that it's a good thing. Otherwise other nations with the death penalty would be right.

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 33):
Just because an inmate is locked up for life doesn't mean that they cannot be productive behind bars.

I said mostly non-productive to the outside world...if I didn't then that's what I meant. What they're doing is helping to subsidize the operating costs of their prison....they're still a drain on the states resources even including their reduced cost manufactured good and services.

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 33):
If you're complaining about prisoners in your state being unproductive, maybe you need to contact your statehouse to get them to take advantage of the low cost labor

What, and put hard working non-felons out of work by offering cheap labor.

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 33):
Who do you think made your license plate or the furniture in your local university's library? Chances are they came from a prison workshop

I understand that.

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 33):
In Texas, the state does not purchase fruits or vegetables fed to inmates from outside vendors. Why? They found that they can produce sufficient amounts of the necessary crops cheaper by growing them on their prison farms.

Well, thanks for mentioning Texas in a non-perjorative manner...doesn't happen often here...and I don't particularly like Texas, but it takes a bad rap from some of the psuedo-intellectuals here. As far as prison farms go, that's an old practice that works some places and doesn't in others.

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 33):
If that were the case, there would be no need for organizations such as the Innocence Project.

Nothing is perfect, and as technology improves you see less cases needing adjustment. Looking at their website you'll notice that most of their cases are very old with very few of them starting in the last decade. I support their work, but I don't believe that we should end capital punishment.

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 33):
Furthermore, it has been proven through exhaustive research that capital punishment has absolutely zero deterrence effect

Exhaustive research isn't always performed without prejudice or false premises. I have read exhaustive studies about abortion and gun control from both sides that give different results. Empirical data is processed and analyzed differently by different people and groups. The baseline information, that cannot be denied is that an executed murderer will not murder again, inside prison or out (and are you denying that prisoners murder other prisoners and stay in prison, because there's nowhere else for them to go without a death penalty?) and that the cost to society, and the cost to justice of not ending their existence is either well quantifiable or well understood. It's arguable what the end result to society is, but the facts are there.

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 33):
If these statements were not true, than the panel that New Jersey installed would not have recommended abolition of capital punishment there

I think politics had more to do with that than you are recognizing here.

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 33):
I should note that that panel was comprised of pubic policy makers, a police chief, academics, and representatives of victim's organizations.

I believe that you can empanel individuals you know to feel a certain way in the first place, and give them studies to review that are already skewed by their authors/compilers pre-standing opinions.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
57AZ
Topic Author
Posts: 2371
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:55 pm

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:44 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 34):
People will not obey laws they don't support, and politicians will use those opportunities to replace the ones that made the unpopular decisions.

True. However I am inclined to believe that the majority opinion has shifted in New Jersey and that the vocal opposition is that of the present political minority. I do not believe that the politicians there would have taken on the matter if not pushed by their constituents to do so. In the states that have legislatively abolished capital punishment, there have been the occasional referendums that attempted to put capital punishment back on the books-all of which have failed. An effort to reinstate capital punishment in Minnesota was recently defeated and the ban in Michigan has survived numerous attempts. In fact, Michigan is the only state in the Union that has never executed anyone-all of the executions that took place there were prior to Michigan gaining statehood in 1837. The current legislative ban has been in place since 1847-almost 160 years and I believe that they've gotten along quite nicely without capital punishment.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:58 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 29):
The possibility of mistakes leading to the execution of a prisoner mistakenly is less than the ones that send men to prison for life

The mistakes that send a man to prison for life can be corrected, even after the appeals process.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 32):
The Innocence Project (which does good works) works not only on death row prisoners but prisoners serving life sentences. They've won upwards of a couple hundred cases....and been unable to disprove the cases of how many?

Doesn't matter. The fact that they have been able to prove the innocence of even a hundred prisoners is evidence that there are severe flaws in the system. When one is talking about executions, a couple hundred incorrect sentences isn't acceptable, no matter how many correct sentences are handed out.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 35):
What, and put hard working non-felons out of work by offering cheap labor.

You could put some illegal immigrants out of work with cheap labor.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Toast
Posts: 1249
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:04 am

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:12 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 34):
When they make sense to you? Or others?

When they make sense, period. When they're rational and logical.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 34):
Quoting Toast (Reply 31):
You're not asked about each and every decision politicians take, are you?

Sure I am...every time I vote.

Well, the folks in NJ were voted into office, so what's the problem?

Quoting DL021 (Reply 34):
Wow...so you're a member of the Illuminati? The elite intellectual class that should be given control of the world to the exclusion of the rest of us barbarians?

Wow... where did I say anything remotely similar?

I myself am in ignorant in many matters. Commercial law, intellectual property, police work, military supplies, you name it... That's why I let others decide, and I don't offer my uneducated opinion on those subjects.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 34):
Representative democracy is about electing those who will be leading the country and holding them accountable

Sure... I can see GWB being held accountable... definitely...

Quoting DL021 (Reply 34):
I disagree that the majority are idiots and bigots...your statement that said so indicates your own bigotry and lack of consideration

No, my statement is based on real-life experience. Most people are barely literate, superstitious, and unworldly. Sorry.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 34):
Unpopular decisions will have to pass the test of an angry populace if the decision is not one that will be supported.

Only very rarely is an angry populace angry enough to change anything. Anger hasn't made Dubya pull out of Iraq. (Just an example, please no "great, more US bashing" BS please.  Wink )

Quoting DL021 (Reply 34):
People will not obey laws they don't support

Absolutely not true, unfortunately.
Shit Piss Fuck Cunt Cocksucker Motherfucker Tits
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:03 pm



Quoting Toast (Reply 7):
This is what politics should be about - not pandering to the masses, but courageouly affronting popular opinion when there are rational reasons to do so.

Hmmmm.....like invading Iraq to do away with a despot of a leader and free the people?

Quoting Toast (Reply 7):
This is a victory for reason and for humanity - hooray New Jersey!

As cited, they had not executed a single person in decades so the victory is minor at best. This is also the state with some of the most punitive state taxes in the country. So much for reason and humanity.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 16):
"What a bunch of wusses, New Jersey! The more that fry, the better!"

Signed,
Texas

If they make it that far. If we catch them in the act, we save prison space immediately.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5378504.html

Note, this is a different burglary suspect being shot to death, not the one in Pasedena.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 29):
Life without parole.....is cruel and inhuman punishment. Being locked away in a maximum security facility is cruel beyond belief. No hope of freedom, no real opportunity to repay society, and nothing productive...all while forcing society to pay for continued existence. We're keeping them alive so we can torture them more by forcing them to live in an acknowledged horrific environment.

Executing prisoners who's crimes merit life imprisonment is more humane, less costly and simpler for everyone.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark  Right on the money. These types of prisoners do not get used the way lesser security risk prisoners do. They won't be working out on the farm, they'll be spending the majority of their days in a prison cell and escorted virtually everywhere they go. They won't have any privacy to speak of and will always be considered a security risk. If that is not cruel and inhuman then nothing is.

Quoting ShannoninAMA (Reply 30):
Why do you insist on bringing texas into Every Political thread out there?

Because he knows that CLE will never measure up to IAH and will always be a "sortof" hub. wink 

Quoting Toast (Reply 31):
Not when it suits me, when it makes sense.

So unless it makes sense to you, it doesn't suit you, hence those folks are:

Quoting Toast (Reply 38):
barely literate, superstitious, and unworldly.

and unworthy of being able to make choices if you had your way evidently.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 32):
I re-read my post and realize that it sounds harsh.

Nope, it was dead on target.

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 33):
because an inmate is locked up for life doesn't mean that they cannot be productive behind bars

In the case of a no parole prisoner it does. They will be considered maximum security risks for flight since they have nothing to lose. If not a threat to the security officers that have to watch over them, they are certainly a major security risk to the inmates that have to share space with them.

Quoting Toast (Reply 38):
When they make sense, period. When they're rational and logical.

In your opinion. Which goes back to your thinking that if someone doesn't agree with you they must therefore be:

Quoting Toast (Reply 38):
barely literate, superstitious, and unworldly.



Quoting Toast (Reply 38):
I myself am in ignorant in many matters.

I won't argue that statement with you.

Quoting Toast (Reply 38):
That's why I let others decide, and I don't offer my uneducated opinion on those subjects.

Unless of course you are confronted with someone who disagrees with your superior intellect which then of course means that they are:

Quoting Toast (Reply 38):
barely literate, superstitious, and unworldly.

in which case you will :

Quoting Toast (Reply 38):
offer my uneducated opinion on those subjects.

without hesitation.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:29 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 39):
like invading Iraq to do away with a despot of a leader and free the people?

Like invading Iraq to ensure that Saddam wasn't going to be a threat, you mean.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 39):
This is also the state with some of the most punitive state taxes in the country.

Indeed, so punitive that people in New York will make a point of going to New Jersey (and, in the case of people living in NYC, pay the $6 toll on the way back) just to get gas because the lower taxes can mean a savings of up to $1 a gallon.  Yeah sure

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Toast
Posts: 1249
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:04 am

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolis

Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:32 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 39):
like invading Iraq to do away with a despot of a leader and free the people?

I said, "when there are rational reasons".

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 39):
they had not executed a single person in decades so the victory is minor at best.

It may very well be the catalyst of more widespread reform.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 39):
This is also the state with some of the most punitive state taxes in the country.

What has that to do with anything?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 39):
Quoting Toast (Reply 38):
When they make sense, period. When they're rational and logical.

In your opinion. Which goes back to your thinking that if someone doesn't agree with you they must therefore be:

Quoting Toast (Reply 38):
barely literate, superstitious, and unworldly.



Quoting Toast (Reply 38):
I myself am in ignorant in many matters.

I won't argue that statement with you.

Quoting Toast (Reply 38):
That's why I let others decide, and I don't offer my uneducated opinion on those subjects.

Unless of course you are confronted with someone who disagrees with your superior intellect which then of course means that they are:

Quoting Toast (Reply 38):
barely literate, superstitious, and unworldly.

in which case you will :

Quoting Toast (Reply 38):
offer my uneducated opinion on those subjects.

without hesitation.

Nice psychoanalysis. Incredible that someone who never met me could know me that well.
Shit Piss Fuck Cunt Cocksucker Motherfucker Tits
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:46 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 40):
Indeed, so punitive that people in New York will make a point of going to New Jersey (and, in the case of people living in NYC, pay the $6 toll on the way back) just to get gas because the lower taxes can mean a savings of up to $1 a gallon.



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 39):
This is also the state with some of

It always helps if you read the entire statement. That New York has more punitive taxes does not mean that New Jersey doesn't rank right up there with them.

Quoting Toast (Reply 41):
I said, "when there are rational reasons".

Yes, and as you have alluded to, when the reasons are rational, to you. Other wise they are unwise decisions made by illiterate bumpkins who have no business doing so.

Quoting Toast (Reply 41):
It may very well be the catalyst of more widespread reform.

Don't hold your breath.

Quoting Toast (Reply 41):
Incredible that someone who never met me could know me that well.

Words mean things. Your words speak for you.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
MaidensGator
Posts: 848
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:02 pm

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:50 pm



Quoting 57AZ (Reply 33):
it has been proven through exhaustive research that capital punishment has absolutely zero deterrence effect

It has little, if any, general deterrent effect.... As a specific deterrent, capital punishment has a perfect record. Murderers do escape from custody. Ted Bundy escaped from a Colorado jail and came to Florida. Ted won't be escaping or killing anybody else...

Quoting Toast (Reply 31):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 29):
So...you refute democracy when it suits you? What about majority rule?

Not when it suits me, when it makes sense.

If it makes sense to the majority, who are you to argue? Oh, I forgot, the majority are idiots and bigots...

Quoting Toast (Reply 31):
There is no such thing as total democracy.

It's common knowledge that the US is a democratic republic....

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 33):
If you're complaining about prisoners in your state being unproductive, maybe you need to contact your statehouse to get them to take advantage of the low cost labor. Instead of hiring a private company to make improvements at a park or on a state road, have inmate crews do the labor.

Life without parole or death row inmates don't go out to the local park or work on the roads... If low-risk inmates want to work, they can be a good source of labor. However, it costs more to pay somebody to MAKE the inmate work than the labor is worth...
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:13 pm

Folks, I think what a lot of people are losing sight of here is not whether it is cheaper to warehouse people forever as compared to warehousing them for, say, fifteen years before you give them a KCl sendoff.

The major difference is the cost of appeals through the federal system, and the fact that because the death penalty merits extraordinary scrutiny, that all people sentenced to death get a trip through the federal system.

Maybe it's right, maybe it's wrong. The fact is, it's a big tab to run up that can and has bankrupted more than one county in places like Mississippi.

Here, people who are convicted of first degree murder get their sentence and their state appeal which is almost always denied and they're usually finished with the appeals process in under two years.

Then, it's the death sentence on the installment plan. They don't get paroled and they don't get pardoned. The process is relatively inexpensive.

In the winter of 1992, Joe White walked into the Drake Diner here, announced a stickup, and shot the manager and a server to death. There wasn't much doubt as to his guilt-he'd used a rather unique weapon (an automatic pistol called a LAR Grizzly that shot .44 magnum cartridges) that he'd stolen from his girlfriend's father. He was soon caught, tried, convicted, sentenced to life, appealed, his appeal was denied and he was done inside of two years.

He's still there.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
IADCA
Posts: 1346
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:27 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 39):
Quoting Toast (Reply 7):
This is what politics should be about - not pandering to the masses, but courageouly affronting popular opinion when there are rational reasons to do so.

Hmmmm.....like invading Iraq to do away with a despot of a leader and free the people?

That didn't "affront popular opinion." At the beginning of the war (and before it started), the invasion was supported by a majority of Americans, which grew to an even larger majority within a month or two of the invasion.

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/khtm...olitics/20030326poll_results1.html (Poll #4)
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/06/30/sprj.irq.iraq.poll/

And those are from liberal sources, the ones most likely to underreport support for the war.

I wouldn't call that action "pandering to the masses," but it wasn't "courageously affronting popular opinion" either. Probably a better example of what you cite is Nixon deciding to send troops into Cambodia over very loud, violent, and more widely grounded protests (although there is substantial evidence that this action was also supported by nearly half the American population).
 
jamincan
Posts: 572
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:28 am

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolis

Sat Dec 15, 2007 11:28 pm



Quoting Nuori5084 (Reply 22):
Those poor convicted murders...let them LIVE. They deserve it, right?

I've always felt that the issue of eliminating the death penalty was less about what the criminal deserved, and more about how we, as a fair and civilized society, feel that we should treat the least of those around us.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:37 am



Quoting Toast (Reply 38):
No, my statement is based on real-life experience. Most people are barely literate, superstitious, and unworldly. Sorry

Seriouely....the majority of the world is now literate, and your definition of superstitious probably involves anyone who goes to church regularly, therefore is dismissable. Unworldly...that just makes you sound rather elitist. Re-read that with a fresh eye and tell me if you can see how someone could read that and arrive at that conclusion.

Quoting Mir (Reply 37):
You could put some illegal immigrants out of work with cheap labor.

You are correct, my padawan learner....but be mindful of the dark side of the force here...the illegals are at least presumed innocent of murder.

Quoting Toast (Reply 38):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 34):
Quoting Toast (Reply 31):
You're not asked about each and every decision politicians take, are you?

Sure I am...every time I vote.

Well, the folks in NJ were voted into office, so what's the problem?

They haven't had to answer for their actions yet via re-election. They may be ok, but they may not.

Quoting Toast (Reply 38):
I myself am in ignorant in many matters. Commercial law, intellectual property, police work, military supplies, you name it... That's why I let others decide, and I don't offer my uneducated opinion on those subjects.

It sounds as if you simply allow people to make decisions for you without looking to find if they're reasonable and sound. Do you feel you make informed voting decisions?

Quoting Toast (Reply 38):
Sure... I can see GWB being held accountable... definitely...

There you go.....I knew it'd come up sometime in this thread. He's been held accountable, and will continue to be so, by the people who elected him to office.

Quoting Toast (Reply 38):
Only very rarely is an angry populace angry enough to change anything. Anger hasn't made Dubya pull out of Iraq. (Just an example, please no "great, more US bashing" BS please. )

Well, then stop bashing the President and the actions of the US. Our populace changes things quite often via the vote.

Quoting Toast (Reply 38):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 34):
People will not obey laws they don't support

Absolutely not true, unfortunately.

Absolutely true, fortunately and unfortunately. Pot smokers still smoke pot. Speeders still violate the law. Bank robbers still rob banks. Civil rights protestors using civil disobedience tactics (and strategy) broke Jim Crow.

I could go on. People eventually see what's right and support that. I also think that todays populace forms opinions too often based on information they receive from a politically slanted 4th Estate which has taken to molding the information and shaping the presentation and injecting their own views and analysis to the raw data without specifying the difference between the empirical data and their opinion.

People also make decisions based on what feels better for them. Not based on what is probably the right thing to do for the long haul. It's a problem of a society that has reached the plateau where they no longer have to scratch for food and fend off the local wild fauna or the next tribe up the river. That society starts wondering how much they can separate themselves from the barbarians and how they can avoid the hard things their parents had to do. They want to remove the pain from life, without taking into account the laws of nature....because they're hard.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
IAD380
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:34 am

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:44 am



Quoting Maidensgator (Reply 26):
It already was thirty-five years ago

No, capital punishment was never legislatively abolished throughout the United States. In 1972, the Supreme Court ruled that the state capital punishment laws in effect at the time were arbitrary and capricious and, therefore, violated the due process clause of the 14th amendment. The elected representatives of New Jersey voted to abolish the death penalty, thus resuming a trend that was interrupted 42 years ago when the legislatures in Iowa and West Virginia abolished capital punishment. Most of the states that legislatively abolished the death penalty prior to 1972 never restored it. New Jersey now may be setting a new trend, where legislatures, not courts, abolish capital punishment. New Jersey may have boosted efforts in Maryland, Nebraska, New Mexico, Colorado, and Montana to legislatively abolish the death penalty .
 
57AZ
Topic Author
Posts: 2371
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:55 pm

RE: New Jersey Death Penalty Probably To Be Abolished

Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:53 am



Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 43):
Life without parole or death row inmates don't go out to the local park or work on the roads...

Just because they are not "low" risk does not mean that they cannot be productive behind bars. Many institutions use lifers or high timers for industrial prison work. Tennessee used Death Row inmates to do data input for a number of years. The work area was placed adjacent to their housing unit and the men who did data input were allowed unrestricted movement between the housing unit and work area during the day. Most of the wooden furniture at your local library or school could have come from the State Department of Corrections. For all of you who work for the federal government, look at your desktop calendar blotter. Down in the corner, you'll see the Federal Corrections Industries mark. All of the calendars used by the federal government are made in a printing plant operated by the Bureau of Prisons using prisoner labor. In Tennessee, all clothing items used by the Tennessee Department of Corrections are manufactured at Tennessee Correctional Industry's plant located at the Tennessee State Prison for Women. TSPW also operates one of two Call Centers for TennCare-Tennessee's state program that replaced Medicare.

Prison Industries are valuable for the fact that they both save the government money and encourage good behavior from all but the most incorrigible inmates. Discipline at most prison facilities is very strict-even a slight slip up will cost a trustee or inmate laborer his work privileges. That's right-it's considered a privilege to work. In many facilities, that's the only opportunity that an inmate will have to be out of his cell or housing unit. Also, they can earn credits to apply to their commissary account. Usually, most jobs will "pay" them the equivalent of $0.30 cents an hour. However, some states that have worked with private industry to perform private industrial work at prison industries do things differently. I have heard of programs that paid full minimum wage rates, but the difference between the minimum wage rate and prison rate is used to pay restitution, victim's advocate services or other programs as set by law.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], timz and 15 guests