LHMark
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New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:49 pm

http://www.kptv.com/news/14882840/detail.html

Hmm... I guess he hadn't received firearms training yet.
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Springbok747
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:57 pm

Thats just sad. But how can a pistol accidentally discharge? Was he carrying it with a round already in the chamber?
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Queso
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:15 pm



Quoting LHMARK (Thread starter):
I guess he hadn't received firearms training yet.

Even highly experienced shooters can be stupid.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 1):
But how can a pistol accidentally discharge? Was he carrying it with a round already in the chamber?

That is the preferred way to carry a firearm because you might not have the time to load it in a time of dire need.
 
dl021
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:22 pm

What a horrible and senseless tragedy that could have been avoided by practicing good and very basic firearms safety.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 1):
But how can a pistol accidentally discharge?

By not being safe, and putting your finger on the trigger after not clearing the weapon. Unfortunately it's easy to have a real tragedy while being a little careless. Just like with pools and cars.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:22 pm



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 1):
But how can a pistol accidentally discharge? Was he carrying it with a round already in the chamber?

Probably a Glock, and the officer had his finger on the trigger . . . violation of Basic Rule 2.

Carrying a round in the chamber - weapon in Condition 1 - is normal, and expected. If have an officer that does not carry in Condition 1, he/she can expect a written reprimand.

Quoting LHMARK (Thread starter):
I guess he hadn't received firearms training yet.

 sarcastic 

Hmmmm, I guess if you'd bothered to read the link you'd see

a) it was not a department weapon
b) the person hadn't been to any training yet

In fact, you should edit your thread title, because it's inaccurate.
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Queso
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:27 pm



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
Probably a Glock

 worried  I wasn't going to say anything but they do seem to be involved more often than other brands. Irregardless of that, he made a tragic mistake for which there is no "do over".
 
LHMark
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:27 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
In fact, you should edit your thread title, because it's inaccurate.

Edit away. The source of the weapon is kinda irrelevant, and I titled it 'new deputy' to reflect that fact within the space limitations.' I can't change it now but have no problem with you doing so.

[Edited 2007-12-18 14:34:08]
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
Springbok747
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:42 pm



Quoting Queso (Reply 2):
That is the preferred way to carry a firearm because you might not have the time to load it in a time of dire need.



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
Carrying a round in the chamber - weapon in Condition 1 - is normal, and expected. If have an officer that does not carry in Condition 1, he/she can expect a written reprimand.

Ok wow...didn't know that. I have carried my .22 Beretta many times, but never with a round already in the chamber. But I'm not a cop and never had to deal with a life threatening situation.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
Probably a Glock, and the officer had his finger on the trigger . . . violation of Basic Rule 2.

Glocks are very popular among shooters here, probably because they're cheaper than the other ones. I thought Glocks were pretty safe...guess nothing is safe if the person handling the weapon is stupid.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:53 pm



Quoting LHMARK (Reply 6):
I can't change it now but have no problem with you doing so

No sir . . . because it would be my personal preference, not one done because of that red title by my name.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 7):
I thought Glocks were pretty safe...guess nothing is safe if the person handling the weapon is stupid.

All weapons are safe . . .

If properly handled . . .

In this case, it was not - as Queso said - a terrible tragedy has occured.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 7):
Ok wow...didn't know that.

I'd venture to say if you ask any copper from the US on this board, they'll tell you Condition 1 is the standard. I'd also venture to say if you ask any handgun owner on this board - regardless of profession - you'll find Condition 1 for a handgun is standard.
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Mir
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:54 pm

Ugh. Why can't idiots with firearms kill themselves when they screw up and not other people?  Sad

-Mir
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MDorBust
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:54 pm



Quoting The Source Article (Thread starter):
Ryan Osbrink, 24, was practicing drawing his pistol from a holster when it unintentionally discharged as his wife, Kimberly Osbrink, entered the room.



Hey guy, ever heard of snap caps?

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 7):
I thought Glocks were pretty safe...guess nothing is safe if the person handling the weapon is stupid.

Bingo.
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Queso
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:57 pm



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 7):
Ok wow...didn't know that. I have carried my .22 Beretta many times, but never with a round already in the chamber. But I'm not a cop and never had to deal with a life threatening situation.

The proper way to carry a loaded weapon should be a part of ANY concealed carry training. I sure as hell spend a lot of time teaching my students about that before they ever take to the range with a live firearm, regardless of whether they plan to carry or not.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 7):
I thought Glocks were pretty safe...guess nothing is safe if the person handling the weapon is stupid.

They are as safe as any other double-action auto without an external safety as long as they haven't had a different weight trigger spring installed. Even at that, any improperly (read that incompetently) handled firearm can be a killer. You don't practice* drawing with a loaded weapon and you sure as HELL don't do it in an occupied dwelling.

* Unless you have had copious training and practice first, and then only in a safe area.
 
Queso
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:06 pm



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
I'd also venture to say if you ask any handgun owner on this board - regardless of profession - you'll find Condition 1 for a handgun is standard.

 checkmark  I concur.

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
Why can't idiots with firearms kill themselves when they screw up and not other people?

Sometimes they do. It's normally when people are cleaning their "unloaded" firearm.
 
Springbok747
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:13 pm



Quoting Queso (Reply 11):
Even at that, any improperly (read that incompetently) handled firearm can be a killer. You don't practice* drawing with a loaded weapon and you sure as HELL don't do it in an occupied dwelling.

 checkmark 

I wonder what the hell he was thinking practicing drawing his loaded weapon inside his house. If he had been killed he would have deserved the Darwin Award. Too bad his poor wife had to die for his stupidity. What an idiot.
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Queso
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:19 pm



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 13):
I wonder what the hell he was thinking practicing drawing his loaded weapon inside his house. If he had been killed he would have deserved the Darwin Award. Too bad his poor wife had to die for his stupidity. What an idiot.

You know, I completely agree with you. And it certainly is horrible that it happened at all, but can you just imagine how certain people on this forum would respond had the situation been a little different and this person NOT been somehow linked to law enforcement and he was "only" an armed citizen?
 
LHMark
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:24 pm



Quoting Queso (Reply 14):
You know, I completely agree with you. And it certainly is horrible that it happened at all, but can you just imagine how certain people on this forum would respond had the situation been a little different and this person NOT been somehow linked to law enforcement and he was "only" an armed citizen?

I don't think it matters that he was linked to law enforcement. Until he gets that badge, he's just another dude. I think it's just an example of some guy not treating his firearm with the respect a potentially lethal weapon should get. I hope reading about this guy's mistake stops another guy from crossing the line between 'weapon' and 'toy.'
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
Springbok747
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:27 pm



Quoting Queso (Reply 14):
You know, I completely agree with you. And it certainly is horrible that it happened at all, but can you just imagine how certain people on this forum would respond had the situation been a little different and this person NOT been somehow linked to law enforcement and he was "only" an armed citizen?

Oh yup..we'd have the usual 'Guns are (insert negative adjective here)' argument. For all you know some people might even start that considering the person involved hadn't technically started his job and also it was not the service weapon that was involved in this incident.
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itsjustme
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:28 pm

Perhaps it's the cop in me and my naturally suspicious nature but, damn, this story sounds just bit too coincidental to me.
 
Queso
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:09 pm



Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 17):
Perhaps it's the cop in me and my naturally suspicious nature but, damn, this story sounds just bit too coincidental to me.

That thought crossed my mind as well but I'll depend on the local investigators to do their job and do it well to detect if this was anything more than just recklessness.
 
corocks
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:48 pm



Quoting LHMARK (Thread starter):
Hmm... I guess he hadn't received firearms training yet.

Given that he was a decorated Marine from the war, I would expect that the had been through firearms training.

Was just flat out being stupid at the time.
 
GDB
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:47 pm

So this guy, ex services, keen on firearms (by having his own weapon), never learned the first, most basic, fundamental rule ;
Never point a weapon at anyone, for any reason, unless you may have to use it on them.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:50 pm



Quoting GDB (Reply 20):

Actually, that's Rule #3.

Rule #1: All guns are always loaded.

Rule #2: Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are the target and you're ready to shoot.

Rule #3: Never point your weapon at anything you're not willing to destroy.

Rule #4: Be aware of your targets, your surroundings and anything beyond your target.
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CaptOveur
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:59 am



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 1):
But how can a pistol accidentally discharge?

Um.. Pull the trigger, it fires.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 1):
Was he carrying it with a round already in the chamber?

I certainly hope so.

Thankfully this guy was weeded out of the process before he made it through and his stupidity put the lives of the general public in danger.

This is why we need to pay cops more. Instead of getting the best and brightest we end up with a few of the best, but the rest of the force is made up with whoever will work for the money.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:57 pm



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
Hmmmm, I guess if you'd bothered to read the link you'd see

a) it was not a department weapon
b) the person hadn't been to any training yet

According to an article in the Marine Corps News, Osbrink joined the Marine Corps to prepare for a career as a police officer and in hopes of joining a SWAT team.

In 2006, he received a Bronze Star Medal for courageous actions in Iraq.

I would say he had some training.
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miamiair
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:11 pm

ac·ci·dent –noun 1. an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss; casualty; mishap.

A very unfortunate accident. Complacency, distraction, fatigue, lack of resources, norms, stress...

But they are no excuse for breaking rule #3. These rules are simple. Don't follow them and unpleasant things happen; Follw them and you will be accident free.
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Queso
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:18 pm



Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 23):
In 2006, he received a Bronze Star Medal for courageous actions in Iraq.

I would say he had some training.

Which gives even MORE credibility to my point....

Quoting Queso (Reply 2):
Even highly experienced shooters can be stupid.

Interestinly enough, some of the most irresponsible and reckless firearms handling I have ever witnessed has been committed by what would generally considered to be "experienced" shooters. Many of them, because they have never had an accident or a close call, become complacent and think it can't happen to them and even more dangerous are those who are "used" to carrying or handling firearms and have developed bad habits they are not even aware of!

I tell my students that have shooting experience that the gawddamned thing is a snake and it's waiting for you to not be paying attention to it so it can bite you in the ass! Then I tell them it's one thing when an idiot shoots himself while holstering or negligently handling a firearm but it's the lowness of human responsibility to let your guard down low enough to allow yourself to harm another human being because of your own irresponsibility.

The argument "guns don't kill, people do" is often used against gun control advocates but it's a two-way street and it rings true for negligent firearm handling by experienced shooters as well.

In some cases I'd rather work with a new shooter who has never handled a firearm than an experienced shooter because at least the n00bs are "scared" of the gun and have respect for it.

Having said that, I'm not stupid enough to say it'll "never" happen to me. We who handle firearms must always remain vigilant. Power and responsibility are commensurate! Spend a few bucks to have a firearms instructor observe your handling for a half-hour session once a year and point out the handling errors you are making.

[/rant]
 
AeroWesty
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:24 pm

I caught this story on the news, and apparently the victim made a statement before she died, which hasn't been released yet. The Oregonian has a bit more background on this story.

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/orego...se/news/119812470051190.xml&coll=7

It's still being regarded as an "unintentional discharge" until the Tualatin Police and the District Attorney complete their investigations.
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Queso
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:05 pm



Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 26):
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/orego...se/news/119812470051190.xml&coll=7

From the article.....

"During marksmanship training at boot camp -- which is two weeks long -- four basic safety rules are made clear: Treat every weapon as if it were loaded; never point your weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot; keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire; and keep your weapon on safe until you intend to fire."

Now, where have I heard something similar to THAT before?  scratchchin  Hmmm.......

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
Rule #1: All guns are always loaded.

Rule #2: Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are the target and you're ready to shoot.

Rule #3: Never point your weapon at anything you're not willing to destroy.

Rule #4: Be aware of your targets, your surroundings and anything beyond your target.

 
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n229nw
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:28 am



Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 17):
Perhaps it's the cop in me and my naturally suspicious nature but, damn, this story sounds just bit too coincidental to me.

Yeah, I had that same thought. Wonder if they'll find out he just happened to have taken out a million dollar life insurance policy on her the week before, etc.  scratchchin 
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Dougloid
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:46 am

What a fucked up deal. My wife works for the state training academy for cops and she hears stories. One concerned a local department's training officer who was demonstrating a weapon and shot himself in the gut. He didn't die but his shit got pretty weak. Some people just shouldn't play with weapons inside the house.

One of my old buddies shot himself in the leg with a black powder pistol practicing quick draw stuff out in the desert. He had to kick start his motorcycle to drive to the hospital in town. He never did that again....he thought he'd set his pants on fire and then his leg started going crazy. The ball went in at his upper thigh and traveled between the skin and muscles and exited near his knee. He had a nice tattoo from all the powder residue.
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Queso
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:08 pm



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 29):
Some people just shouldn't play with weapons inside the house.

NOBODY should PLAY with weapons inside the house!
 
MDorBust
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:37 pm



Quoting Queso (Reply 30):
NOBODY should PLAY with weapons inside the house!

FTFY
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GPIARFF
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:20 pm



Quoting Queso (Reply 25):
Interestinly enough, some of the most irresponsible and reckless firearms handling I have ever witnessed has been committed by what would generally considered to be "experienced" shooters. Many of them, because they have never had an accident or a close call, become complacent and think it can't happen to them and even more dangerous are those who are "used" to carrying or handling firearms and have developed bad habits they are not even aware of!



Quoting Queso (Reply 30):
NOBODY should PLAY with weapons

Pa chiye ladan dlo ou bwe ( don't crap in your drinking water )
 
Molykote
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:42 pm



Quoting GPIARFF (Reply 32):

Is that real or a staged "accident" in the form of a lesson?
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MDorBust
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:47 pm



Quoting Molykote (Reply 33):
Is that real or a staged "accident" in the form of a lesson?

Very, very real. So real in fact that the agent involved filed several lawsuits in attempts to suppress the video.. then to claim damages from the release of the video.
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jetmech
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:53 pm



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
Probably a Glock



Quoting Queso (Reply 5):
I wasn't going to say anything but they do seem to be involved more often than other brands.

Correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it, Glock pistols have three safeties. The thing that always gets me however, is that all three safeties are designed to deactivate and reactive with contact on the trigger, so doesn't that mean that a Glock only has one independent safety feature, namely the trigger itself?

From what I recall, many other pistols have an external safety other than the trigger, so you need two independent actions to fire from the safe condition. Apparently, the Glock only requires one action ( trigger pull ) to fire a shot  Confused

Regards JetMech
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ANCFlyer
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:58 pm



Quoting JetMech (Reply 35):
Glock pistols have three safeties.

Trigger Safety . . . . that's it. Well, okay, it also won't fire if it's holstered or someone's finger isn't where it isn't supposed to be.

Quoting JetMech (Reply 35):
the Glock only requires one action ( trigger pull ) to fire a shot

Correct. That's why I like it.


Proper training and adherence to the rules will prevent accidents. Can't fix negligence - rather "Can't Fix Stupid" however - and that's ignoring rule #3: Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target and you're ready to shoot.

In my department we have no such thing as "Accidental Discharge". A weapon simply will NOT fire itself. No matter much Mr. Spock Mind Waves you throw at it. Any weapon firing when it's not supposed to do so is NEGLIGENCE on the part of the operator.
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jetmech
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:15 pm



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 36):
In my department we have no such thing as "Accidental Discharge". A weapon simply will NOT fire itself. No matter much Mr. Spock Mind Waves you throw at it. Any weapon firing when it's not supposed to do so is NEGLIGENCE on the part of the operator.

No worries ANC. I'll leave it for the time being and just say that I feel pretty bad for the unfortunate deputy.

Regards, JetMech
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair :shock: .
 
Queso
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:27 pm



Quoting JetMech (Reply 35):
Apparently, the Glock only requires one action ( trigger pull ) to fire a shot

That is correct, but in all fairness that is the way most modern combat automatics are designed. And if you think about it, all double-action revolvers are that way too. The difference is that a Glock (and some others) are always in a "semi-cocked" state after a round is chambered by the slide being brought back and released. I like double/single-action autos (especially for people new to carrying concealed) that have an external hammer and a decocker because it allows the shooter to have a "substantial" trigger pull on the first shot with a corresponding hammer pull-back as an additional visible and felt safety feature, with subsequent shots being crisp and light like a single-action auto. MUCH fewer "accidents" with this type of design. Would it have made a difference in this case? We'll never know, but if the guy involved in this would have had another visual or felt index as feedback it couldn't have hurt anthing, that much is for sure.

Another "feature" of the Glock is that you must pull the trigger before you disassemble it. That sucks for n00bs and is just asking for trouble. Yeah, you need to check the thing any time you unload it anyway but why give Murphy any more opportunities than he already has?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 36):
Trigger Safety . . . . that's it. Well, okay, it also won't fire if it's holstered or someone's finger isn't where it isn't supposed to be.

 checkmark  and that is the key. If you don't touch the trigger, it ain't gonna go off. Easy enough.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 36):
Quoting JetMech (Reply 35):
the Glock only requires one action ( trigger pull ) to fire a shot

Correct. That's why I like it.

Ford, Chevy, Boeing, Airbus......everybody has their favorite.
 
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jetmech
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:22 am



Quoting Queso (Reply 38):
MUCH fewer "accidents" with this type of design.

I guess that is what I was getting at in my prior posts. As good as the training is that one may receive, accidents can happen. My thinking is along the lines that it would be much harder for an accidental discharge to occur if two independent actions where required to bring the firearm to readiness from the safe condition. To me, it seems to put too much onus on the operator when no external safeties are provided.

Regards, JetMech
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair :shock: .
 
Queso
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Tue Jan 01, 2008 2:52 am



Quoting JetMech (Reply 39):
To me, it seems to put too much onus on the operator when no external safeties are provided.

I agree with that but I would have to qualify the statement with the preface that it depends on the user's experience level, dexterity, and how much time they spend with the firearm in their hand. Familiarity with their firearm of choice is extremely important for anyone that depends on it for defense. Some people will say that having an external safety is "cumbersome" but it sure as hell doesn't slow me down any and those who have an intimate familiarity (go ahead and laugh) with their firearm of choice will be almost instinctive in how they drop that safety when put into a pressure situation. I do pressure drills with students, some of them are like "simon says", having the student draw on a perceived threat and hold dropping safety and coming to bear on the target with finger on-trigger until the threat is identified. It's a good way to build confidence and ensure someone uses that safety to it's maximum effect. That's what it's there for.

The other side of it is that someone who is experienced enough to carry a firearm shouldn't have their damned finger on the trigger until their firearm is on-target and they intend to ventilate it. In that case though there is precious little margin for error in the time between when the gun clears leather and the time the bullet leaves the barrel. This is where intimate familiarity is critical because there simply are no "do-overs" when it comes to firearms and you don't want to be bringing that gun to bear on something you're not prepared to destroy and live with the consequences of.
 
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jetmech
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:49 am



Quoting Queso (Reply 40):
The other side of it is that someone who is experienced enough to carry a firearm shouldn't have their damned finger on the trigger until their firearm is on-target and they intend to ventilate it.



Quoting Queso (Reply 40):
This is where intimate familiarity is critical

I see. As I understand it, the Glock series of pistols is a very popular choice with many police departments both within and outside the U.S. If a police recruit has no prior firearms experience, or service in the military or other Federal agency, do you think that the firearms training provided to them would be enough to give an adequate level of familiarity to be able to handle a Glock safely, yet also deploy it immediately and effectively when needed in critical situations?

Regards, JetMech
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Queso
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Tue Jan 01, 2008 2:11 pm



Quoting JetMech (Reply 41):
If a police recruit has no prior firearms experience, or service in the military or other Federal agency, do you think that the firearms training provided to them would be enough to give an adequate level of familiarity to be able to handle a Glock safely, yet also deploy it immediately and effectively when needed in critical situations?

Police agencies gather candidates of widely varied experience levels and train them (often by sending them through their own academy) to a standard set forth by a state governing agency so IMO, prior firearms experience doesn't seem to mean as much as it used to. I think the in-house training by most agencies is adequate from the results I have seen, but it takes more than just a few hours of classroom time followed by a set of drills out on the range to build the familiarity needed for what these people are being asked to do. All of the standard police qualification drills I have seen are a complete joke! My 15 year-old daughter could easily qualify to carry a gun with most local law enforcement departments! ANC, MD and other LEO's, feel free to chime in on this and tell me if I'm wrong.

What is needed is more practice. I think weekly practice for on-the-beat police should be mandatory. Even if it's just 50-100 rounds (only 2600-5200 rounds a year), that only takes an hour once you get out to the range and time spent with the gun in-hand is what develops the practiced responsiveness in the fine motor muscles needed to develop the kind of familiarity I am talking about. Most departments would turn their noses up at the extra cost of ammunition and the time they would have to pay, not to mention to "increased risk" as the bean-counters see it. So the advice I give is to have them practice on their own and keep a journal of their practice sessions so they can back up their firearms experience in court or before a review board if they ever need to.

Practice, practice, practice. Then practice some more.
 
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jetmech
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Tue Jan 01, 2008 2:25 pm



Quoting Queso (Reply 42):
So the advice I give is to have them practice on their own and keep a journal of their practice sessions so they can back up their firearms experience in court or before a review board if they ever need to.

It would be a shame if a police person ever had to defend their own firearm proficiency due to an accident caused by lack of taxpayer funded training time.

Regards, JetMech
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair :shock: .
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Tue Jan 01, 2008 2:29 pm



Quoting JetMech (Reply 43):


Quoting Queso (Reply 42):
So the advice I give is to have them practice on their own and keep a journal of their practice sessions so they can back up their firearms experience in court or before a review board if they ever need to.

It would be a shame if a police person ever had to defend their own firearm proficiency due to an accident caused by lack of taxpayer funded training time.

IF?!

Happens all the time. That is why Department Records are kept. That is why I keep a log of every round fired.

That's why you take it upon yourself - as QUeso said - to go to the range and practice on your own.

Department Bean Counters cut funding for ammo, and they'll be the same assmonkeys asking for your head on a platter to placate the politicos when something "negative" happens. Believe it.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Dougloid
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:24 pm



Quoting Queso (Reply 30):
ting Dougloid (Reply 29):
Some people just shouldn't play with weapons inside the house.

NOBODY should PLAY with weapons inside the house!

If people were more familiar with weapons and were properly trained in their care and handling they'd probably be more careful than they are. I had hunter safety and marksmanship training in the boy scouts (loooooooooong time ago!) and it was worth having. It's my suspicion that kids don't get that for whatever reasons these days, particularly your suburban and urban kids.

And there's a certain cultural paradigm shift in young folks these days that probably doesn't help any. Video games teach them to kill whatever gets in their way, and hip hop is reinforcing the same lesson.

The hardest part I had in getting the merit badge was that damn .22 Remington target rifle shooting offhand. I was a skinny kid and it took a lot to hold that heavy assed sucker on target for five rounds offhand. We went to a range in the basement of a church, of all things.
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Queso
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:45 pm



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 45):
The hardest part I had in getting the merit badge was that damn .22 Remington target rifle shooting offhand. I was a skinny kid and it took a lot to hold that heavy assed sucker on target for five rounds offhand.

Character building experience, wasn't it?

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 45):
And there's a certain cultural paradigm shift in young folks these days that probably doesn't help any. Video games teach them to kill whatever gets in their way, and hip hop is reinforcing the same lesson.

I think there's a lot of truth to that statement.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 45):
It's my suspicion that kids don't get that for whatever reasons these days, particularly your suburban and urban kids.

Because we live in a culture that teaches "guns are bad" no matter what. Look at some of the responses in the gun control threads and you can easily see how effective the campaign is.
 
CaptOveur
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Tue Jan 01, 2008 11:28 pm



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 44):
Department Bean Counters cut funding for ammo, and they'll be the same assmonkeys asking for your head on a platter to placate the politicos when something "negative" happens. Believe it.

Apparently it has become rare for departments to buy ammo at all. My department only issues one box a month of practice ammo for free and that is only if someone asks for it. That is just 50 rounds a month. I can go through that much in 15 minutes on the range doing tactical drills. The people so many departments put behind desks haven't been on patrol in so long they forget how important weapons proficiency is.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
MDorBust
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Tue Jan 01, 2008 11:59 pm



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 47):
My department only issues one box a month of practice ammo for free and that is only if someone asks for it.

You're getting extras. We only extra ammunition we got issued was what was going to be expended for qualification. I was told once that one of the biggest costs that prevented extra training sessions from being scheduled was the overtime officers and trainers would have to be paid.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 45):
The hardest part I had in getting the merit badge was that damn .22 Remington target rifle shooting offhand.

I learned to shoot on a .22 Remington rifle also. A model 514. It was the same rifle my father learned to shoot on. Need to have the bolt fixed so that if there's ever a little MDorBust, we can get a family tradition going.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
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jetmech
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RE: New Deputy Kills Wife Practicing 'quick-draw'

Wed Jan 02, 2008 1:59 am



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 44):
Department Bean Counters cut funding for ammo, and they'll be the same assmonkeys asking for your head on a platter to placate the politicos when something "negative" happens. Believe it.

I believe it alright! Exactly the same sort of thing happens in the aircraft maintenance game.

Regards, JetMech
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair :shock: .

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