Falcon84
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N.H. Paper Calls Romney A "Phony"

Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:46 am

Talk about a no-nonsense editorial, this one was, apparently.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/...ey.editorial/index.html#cnnSTCText

Yes, the paper is seen as liberal, but even in today's climate, this kind of editorial is something out of the past-a real kick in the ass.

If Romney has really flip-flopped on so many positions, then he deserves such spite. After all, conservatives pounded Kerry on "flip-flopping" back in '04. Turnaround would be fair play.

Anyone agree? Anyone disagree? What say you, voters on Anet?

Edited 'cause I spelled Mitt's last name wrong.  Smile

[Edited 2007-12-23 19:47:56]
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: N.H. Paper Calls Romney A "Phony"

Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:54 am

The Concord Monitor is a rag, not even worth the paper it is written on. Although it makes for great paper to use when gutting fish while fishing along the Merrimack. Other than that, total junk.

They have about 1/10th the circulation as the Manchester Union Leader, 1/10th the operating budget, 1/10th the writer's quality, and 1/10th the brains. How the hell does their crap make it into the public arena??

So the Concord Monitor doesn't like Romney... in other news, the sky is gray, gravity is still the law, and the CM is a piece of shit newspaper.

-UH60
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jetjack74
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RE: N.H. Paper Calls Romney A "Phony"

Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:53 am



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 1):
The Concord Monitor is a rag

Weren't they the ones who endorsed Dean even after the famous Dean Scream?

I have his meltdown as my ringer on the mobile.
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UN_B732
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RE: N.H. Paper Calls Romney A "Phony"

Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:47 am

Dean was a good man. The scream does not make him a bad politician. By all means, if he had won the DNC ticket in '04, and actually represented real change, we probably would not have Mr. Bush as our president.

And, in fact, I believe this article raises some good points about Romney. He went from a moderate who introduced a great healthcare plan in Mass., to a family values centered generic-mold conservative candidate.

In this election, I'm sticking with a true, stable alternative, though he doesn't have very good chances according to phone polls (though he dominates straw polls). Ron Paul.

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jetjack74
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RE: N.H. Paper Calls Romney A "Phony"

Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:09 am



Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 3):
The scream does not make him a bad politician.

No, his policies do. Furthermore, I have no doubt he's a good man, but that doesn't mean he can't be a bad politician

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 3):
By all means, if he had won the DNC ticket in '04, and actually represented real change, we probably would not have Mr. Bush as our president.

I sincerely doubt that. Had Dean gotten the Democrat nomination, it would've been a landslide of Reagan-esque, such as the trouncing of Walter Mondale in the 84 election. He might have won a state or two

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 3):
And, in fact, I believe this article raises some good points about Romney. He went from a moderate who introduced a great healthcare plan in Mass., to a family values centered generic-mold conservative candidate.

And what pretell is wrong with a family values platform? Why is it, that the left spews poisen at the idea of family values? Why is it, that in the rest of world, family is central, everyone has respect in the family core, but here in the US, it's flaw in character? And besides, Romney didn't just "roll out his family" for the campaign, he's one of the few candidates who is married to only spouse he knew. He and Ann were HS sweethearts while several of his competing candidates are on a Magical-marraige Mystery tour with 2nd and 3rd wives. Sorry, but as much as you find it uninspiring that he's a family values candidate, it resonates with many of the keystate voters. I predict that Romney will pull ahead in Iowa.

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 3):
In this election, I'm sticking with a true, stable alternative, though he doesn't have very good chances according to phone polls (though he dominates straw polls). Ron Paul.

What about him? Ron Paul is a hack. He has some serious credibility issues. Anyone who accepts donations from neo-nazi's(and yes, he knows about it) and gets endorsements from the likes of David Duke, is seriously flawed as a credible candidate. Any support for him is severely lacking and won't stick as we enter the Hawkeye Cauci
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Pyrex
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RE: N.H. Paper Calls Romney A "Phony"

Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:21 pm



Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 3):
a moderate who introduced a great healthcare plan in Mass.,

He introduced a healthcare plan in Massachusetts, yes, not a great one (or even a remotely good one, for that matter).
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Boston92
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RE: N.H. Paper Calls Romney A "Phony"

Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:51 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 1):

To this day, my favorite paper has been the Union Leader.
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Mir
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RE: N.H. Paper Calls Romney A "Phony"

Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:03 am



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 4):
And what pretell is wrong with a family values platform? Why is it, that the left spews poisen at the idea of family values? Why is it, that in the rest of world, family is central, everyone has respect in the family core, but here in the US, it's flaw in character?

Because the phrase "family values" has come to mean "fundamentalist Christian".

I have no problem with families. I do have a problem with people attempting to discriminate against others in the name of protecting families.

-Mir
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huskyaviation
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RE: N.H. Paper Calls Romney A "Phony"

Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:19 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
I have no problem with families. I do have a problem with people attempting to discriminate against others in the name of protecting families.

Well said. I would add it's especially disturbing since he is taking those positions out of pure political expediency. I wouldn't find him so frightening if he were honest about what he actually thinks instead of appearing to take whatever stances he deems necessary to get elected, whether it be Senator/Governor of Massachusetts or POTUS.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: N.H. Paper Calls Romney A "Phony"

Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:27 am



Quoting Boston92 (Reply 6):
To this day, my favorite paper has been the Union Leader.

Absolutely. Reading the Monitor is like reading a high school newspaper. I know it sounds weird, but even the paper they use to print on, seems cheap.

New Hampshire is a small state, but the Union Leader is surprisingly good for a relatively minor area.

BTW: I haven't made up my mind who I am voting for in the primary, but if the Monitor opposes Romney so much.... maybe I should take note of that and vote for the guy!

-UH60
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cfalk
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RE: N.H. Paper Calls Romney A "Phony"

Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:22 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
Because the phrase "family values" has come to mean "fundamentalist Christian".

That's just the easy excuse.

I think Mitt has too many credibility issues. His whole line of BS about having having marched with MLK, err, sorry, his father marched with MLK, uhhh, no, he once marched in the same town where MLK had once marched before - yeah yeah that's the ticket.

And all his flipfloping. I don't expect people to be monolithic and never change their positions. I used to be pro-Palestinian, anti-abortion, and thought Madonna would be a one-hit wonder. I was wrong. I've changed my mind on those positions and Mitt has surely evolved in his thinking as well. But don't deny it. That's BS.
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LH423
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RE: N.H. Paper Calls Romney A "Phony"

Tue Dec 25, 2007 5:30 am



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 4):
And besides, Romney didn't just "roll out his family" for the campaign

Well, in a way he did. Mitt is a shrewd man and knew that to win as a Republican in Massachusetts, you need to have a moderate platform. The political center in MA is further to the left than it is in many other states and for that you need to soften your image. MA has, in recent history, had a string of Republican governors but they all espoused traditional Republican values of staying out of people's personal lives and keeping the books balanced. Mitt ran on that same platform, promising to run state government like a business. He did fairly well on that charge but over time his liberal social attitude started to change and he actively sought to reintroduce capital punishment, ban gay marriage, ban abortion, etc. A lot of which, in previous elections, he said to be for. Then, he goes and starts testing the waters for a presidential run, even going as far as to mock Massachusetts voters and our values to South Carolina Republicans. So, yes, I would say he did just "roll out his family values" campaign in this election. So, I have to ask myself: Who is the real Mitt? Is it the moderate Republican who, in the 1994 Senate campaign against Teddy Kennedy, ran on a pro-choice, equal rights for all platform or the Mitt of today running on a pro-life, pro-gay marriage ban platform. Either way, someone's getting the wool pulled over their eyes and it proves, in my opinion, that Mitt is a political opportunist of the first degree (as is Hillary, which is why I won't say whether I would vote for her either) and will say whatever he needs to win. I guess most politicians do these days. I guess I long for a day when politicians will say what they believe. Well, we do have politicians like that but they're but small blips on the radar. Debris, really, in the wake of the larger candidates.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 10):
I don't expect people to be monolithic and never change their positions

Absolutely. I used to be for capital punishment but after my Grade 11 religion class (in a Catholic HS, one of the few good things I learned there), I educated myself more about it and realized it didn't fit in with my set of values. People's views can change but as someone who has lived in Massachusetts for the entirety of Mitt's political life there, I can say his views changed pretty quickly when it came time to start looking into getting in on the presidential race. So, again, it makes me question Mitt's authenticity.

Also, I recall many on the right STILL giving Kerry a hard time for changing his views (though, again, he's another political opportunist who will say anything and has no spine). Surely, if you believed Kerry was a flip flopper, you have to believe that Mitt is too.

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Mir
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RE: N.H. Paper Calls Romney A "Phony"

Tue Dec 25, 2007 7:02 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 10):
That's just the easy excuse.

Think that if you like, but somehow all the big "family" lobby groups you ever hear about are right-wing Christian. And none of them share the values that my family does. I can't help but get more than a little pissed off about them claiming to have a monopoly on "values", whatever those values may be.

-Mir
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jetjack74
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RE: N.H. Paper Calls Romney A "Phony"

Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:01 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
Because the phrase "family values" has come to mean "fundamentalist Christian".

Prove it. Prove that family values is now "code word" for fundamentalist Christianty other than just your interpretation. Can we just cut to the chase and agree that you're just painting with a broad brush that Mormans are just cultists? Becuase that is baically what you're saying. Would you say the same about Clinton or Edwards? Mir, with you, this is about his Morman faith and the fact that you don't trust it, isn't it?

Quoting LH423 (Reply 11):
So, yes, I would say he did just "roll out his family values" campaign in this election.

Romney's family have been active participants in campaigns from the get-go, just like he was for his father. The point is, and this is important, the point is that he does come from and has a strong bond within his family. So other than your perceptions, your so-called hypothesies, and obvious dislike of the man, if you were to actually look at each of the candidates, size them up, compare and the backrounds of their families, Romney talking about family values, pretty much has the gusto to back it up, and anything to contrary without evidense is just arbitrary and capricious.
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Flighty
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RE: N.H. Paper Calls Romney A "Phony"

Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:34 am



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 13):
Prove it. Prove that family values is now "code word" for fundamentalist Christianty other than just your interpretation.

Are you kidding, a lot of people perceive it that way, as just such a code word. So, it does function that way. End of point.

Such word-smithing is a fascinating science. "Social justice" is one used by the left, usually to advocate radical wealth redistribution, and/or forgiveness of criminals.

Family values, to me, is liberal, public-schools centric, and probably gay-friendly. It certainly has nothing to do with religion... far from it. Family values is ridiculous, because everyone has a family. It's silly to use unless you mean for it to be a code word. Claim the broad majority. Everybody has a family, yes. But "family values" has indeed become a Republican code word for social conservatism. Which, to me, is comical, because I completely disagree with that set of values.

For example, carrying a mighty cross across a (pagan) field, with my hair flowing in the wind, and countless armies behind me claiming the land for Christ, is not my idea of a good time. But for "family values" types in the GOP, that is exactly the imagery they are going for. Religious conquest. It's dirty, and so I attack it. Those who don't buy into the prior image, need not defend it.
 
Mir
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RE: N.H. Paper Calls Romney A "Phony"

Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:59 am



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 13):
Mir, with you, this is about his Morman faith and the fact that you don't trust it, isn't it?

Not at all. I have no reason to distrust Mormans, and have never to my knowledge implied such in the past.

I do have a distrust of people who claim to be guided by faith over reason and logic, but that is a distrust that spans the religious spectrum, from Catholic to Baptist to Jewish to Muslim to Hindu to anything else. It certainly is not Mormon-specific. I do not discriminate in my distrust of fundamentalism. For the record, I am more wary of Huckabee's faith than Romney's.

My main dislike of Romney stems from the fact that he has a talent for not being able to get his stories straight, as Cfalk mentioned. I'm also not enamored with several of his positions, such as on marriage and illegal immigration.

-Mir
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LH423
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RE: N.H. Paper Calls Romney A "Phony"

Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:34 pm



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 13):
Romney's family have been active participants in campaigns from the get-go

You're confusing "family man" with "family values". I have no problem with his family taking an active role in his campaign. Actually, I'd encourage it. It's important to have the backing of your family when you're undertaking such a large, life-changing endeavour, like running for president. However, if you think the term "family values" hasn't been hijacked by the Christian right, I'd love to see what rock you've been living under. It must be nice for you not to come out every once in a while. "America's Largest Pro-Family Website.

http://www.afa.net/ - American Family Association: "The American Family Association exists to motivate and equip citizens to change the culture to reflect Biblical truth and traditional family values." And what might those values include...let's see...Church And America...Pro-Life...the "homosexual agenda"..."America's Largest Pro-Family Website.

Sounds and looks pretty Christian Right to me.

Next up..

http://www.alliancedefensefund.org - The Alliance Defense Fund: ADF - Protecting Family Values. Because, yes, them gays are gonna destroy the family.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politic...2008/2007-12-17-Familyvalues_N.htm -

Quote:
Religious and cultural conservatives, unhappy about the rise of abortion and divorce, have made "family values" a staple of Republicans' political strategies for three decades. The phrase took on new life in 1992, when then-vice president Dan Quayle blasted fictional TV character Murphy Brown for having an illegitimate child. Family values were at the heart of a 2004 drive to put same-sex marriage bans on state ballots and draw conservatives to the polls.

Funny how the Republican party is considered the champion of "family values" when a lot of conservatives want to restrict what is considered a family. Not sure about you, but my vision of a family isn't limited to what the Christian Right groups say it should be.

While the term 'Family Values' is a universal term generally referring to what binds all families on every continent of every political persuasion and form, to say that it's just someone's "interpretation", as you put it. The Christian Right has taken the term and moulded it to fit their specific meaning of family. Man, women, child. Church goers who don't believe in abortion, gay marriage, pre-martial sex, etc. And that is a definition of one family. I have no problem with families that match that description. It's their right. However, when people start making it out to be those that don't fit that description do not have family values, that's when I take issue.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 13):
So other than your perceptions, your so-called hypothesies, and obvious dislike of the man, if you were to actually look at each of the candidates, size them up, compare and the backrounds of their families, Romney talking about family values

Sorry, I've done enough research for one post. But you're free to look it up. The local papers covered Mitt's flip flops (incl. the centre-right Boston Herald). Quick search will show you that Mitt has changed his views on gay rights (once supported civil unions) and abortion (used to be pro-choice) but now espouses "family values" that contradict that. As Cfalk said, it's his right and people's stances on issues change. However, I'd like to point out as a life long (until last year) resident of Massachusetts, I have seen Mitt morph from a moderate conservative in the 2002 governor's election to where he is today. Not a perception, not a hypothesis. Also, I don't dislike Mitt Romney. I wouldn't vote for someone, but it's not my nature to dislike someone I don't know. I disagree with him. Big difference.

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