cfalk
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Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:52 am

http://yementimes.com/article.shtml?i=1117&p=community&a=6

Quote:
This title may sound strange, but it’s actually not just a way to attract readers to the topic because I really do mean what it indicates. Violence is a broad term, especially when used regarding women. In this piece, I want to shed light on those instances where violence against women is a must.

First, we should know the meaning of the word violence. Longman’s Dictionary of Contemporary English defines violence as “behavior that is intended to hurt other people physically.” However, the term violence mustn’t be confused with other concepts and terms such as gender inequality or absence of women rights.

Occasionally – if not daily – we hear about events occurring in Islamic and Arab societies. Some human rights organizations recently have attacked violent acts against women, standing against any type of violence – even that between a father and daughter – and citing the cases of some women as examples.

Consequently, they offer solutions such as complaining to the police, taking revenge or leaving them men, who are either their husbands, fathers or brothers – with no exceptions.

One such case involved a woman whose husband allegedly had beaten her. Without revealing the husband’s reasons for doing so, such human rights organizations immediately urged the wife to complain to the police and the courts, while at the same time generalizing the instance and other similar solutions to any type of violence.

If a man and woman are husband and wife, the Qur’an provides solutions, firstly reaffirming any logical and acceptable reasons for such punishment. These solutions are in gradual phases and not just for women, but for men also.

....

Dear readers – especially women – don’t think that I hate or am against women; rather, I simply mean to preserve the morals and principles with which Islam has honored us.

I hope my message is clear, since it’s really quite relevant to the future of our societies, which must be protected from any kind of cultural invasion.

Comments?
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
oly720man
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:19 am

It's never the father's, brother's, husband's fault is it?

Similarly, wives may take actions such as abandoning the marital bed,
...
If a daughter or sister makes a mistake
...
Fathers should handle their daughters via any means that suits their mistake
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
Klaus
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:55 am

Violence always favours physical strength, not being in the right. "Might makes right" has never been a constructive concept.

It's a good thing that modern societies have abandoned it.
 
overlander
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2005 8:57 am

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:24 am



Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
Comments?

Why do you post it and then ask for comments?

Surely you must have a view on it yourself or do you find it acceptable and hope you may find some kindred spirits?

I find your post unacceptable from many points.

All the best,

Overlander
It is better to travel hopefully.............but, always be prepared for the worst!
 
baroque
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:05 pm



Quoting Overlander (Reply 3):
I find your post unacceptable from many points.

 checkmark  also from many points.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:09 pm



Quoting Overlander (Reply 3):
Why do you post it and then ask for comments?

What's wrong with soliciting comments from others first?

Quoting Overlander (Reply 3):
I find your post unacceptable from many points.

Why? Surely you must have a view on why the post is unacceptable....
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:19 pm



Quoting Overlander (Reply 3):
Why do you post it and then ask for comments?

Surely you must have a view on it yourself or do you find it acceptable and hope you may find some kindred spirits?

I find your post unacceptable from many points.



Quoting Baroque (Reply 4):
Quoting Overlander (Reply 3):
I find your post unacceptable from many points.


also from many points.

I have made my views pretty clear in other threads, and don't particularly want to repeat them here. I simply want to see people's reactions on the article, and your response I think is very revealing. You attack the messenger when the message does not suit your sensibilities, or presents a problem that you simply do not want to face.

We have been told that the more vicious aspects of Islamic culture (mistreatment of women, intolerance towards different faiths, etc.) are reserved to a small minority of radicals, and that the vast majority of Muslims disagree with such policies, that Islam is a Religion of Peace, yada yada yada.

I disagree. I think those values are far more pervasive, and that they are indeed part of mainstream Islam - I believe that it is the peaceful, tolerant, and "modern" Muslim that is actually the minority. There are many so-called moderate muslims in this forum, and some of my friends are moderate muslims. I say that they are in the minority.

http://www.aljazeera.net/Portal/KSer...pe=0&yourAnswer=0&dispType=1&mode=

Polls in Islamic countries such as this one from Al-Jazeera (it shows that about 55% of respondants support the recent Al-Qaeda bombings in Algeria), and others from Iraq, Saudi and elsewhere clearly indicate that mainstream Muslims do not reject terrorism or barbaric treatment of minorities, women, infidels, etc..
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Doona
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:29 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
taking revenge

I'd like to know exactly which human rights organizations the author of the article believes urge women to take revenge in these situations...

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 7):
Polls in Islamic countries such as this one from Al-Jazeera (it shows that about 55% of respondants support the recent Al-Qaeda bombings in Algeria), and others from Iraq, Saudi and elsewhere clearly indicate that mainstream Muslims do not reject terrorism or barbaric treatment of minorities, women, infidels, etc..

While I believe you have a point here, that those "morals" might be more widespread than we think, I have to say that polls in countries with good infrastructure and a free political system can be utter bullshit. So what about polls in countries where freedom of speech does not even exist? And yeah, I'll believe any poll coming out of Saudi Arabia.

Cheers
Mats
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
baroque
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:31 pm



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 6):
Quoting Overlander (Reply 3):
I find your post unacceptable from many points.

Why? Surely you must have a view on why the post is unacceptable....

The original poster might have put the article in context by adding some others easily available.
http://books.google.com/books?id=XME...79&sig=v90BuMho7znquNc1qkyct4ehRDE
"The Christian Church" Davidson concludes, "from Constantine on, has had a record of practising and recommending physical abuse to women".

A more general treatment is available at
http://www.bridgew.edu/SoAS/jiws/fall02/historical_perspectives.pdf

There are plenty of crazy proposals on all sorts of topics, why single that one out for comment and why not look at the issue in terms of more considered contributions. Overlander is correct.

FWIW, if you ask GOOGLE to tell you about
Christian justification for violence against women, you get 129,000 hits
Islamic justification for violence against women, you get 89,000 hits

It is fair to point out that in BOTH cases most of the articles are actually about how to prevent it.  Wow! That might have been a more useful topic? No?
 
halls120
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:47 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
The original poster might have put the article in context by adding some others easily available.

He could have, but why is he obligated to do so? Why can't he put his viewpoint out there, and wait for others to respond with the lack of context you have noted?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
It is fair to point out that in BOTH cases most of the articles are actually about how to prevent it.

Life isn't fair.  biggrin 
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:24 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
FWIW, if you ask GOOGLE to tell you about
Christian justification for violence against women, you get 129,000 hits
Islamic justification for violence against women, you get 89,000 hits

That is probably the most outragous attempt at spin I have heard since Clinton's "Depends on the meaning of 'is' is".

I attempted to do what you said, and what mainly comes back are articles such as this:

Quote:
[PDF] 2000 Ending Violence against Women and GirlsFile Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
alls for action to stop domestic violence against women esca- .... for the “crime” of marrying a Christian. Her brother left her body in ...
www.unfpa.org/swp/2000/pdf/english/chapter3.pdf - Similar pages

where sure enough, you have words like "christian", "justification", "violence against women" do pop up, but you turn the meaning completely around.

Here are the facts. In Western and/or Christian societies, violence against women, honor killings, denial of rights etc. are disapproved of and generally punished where reasonable evidence exists. They are not accepted with a nod and a wink from the authorities as they are in Islam on a widespread scale.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
overlander
Posts: 139
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:41 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 7):
I have made my views pretty clear in other threads, and don't particularly want to repeat them here.

You will have to educate me further as this is the first time I have read your bigotry.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 10):
Life isn't fair.

Ahhh bless, It is not a nice thing to be someones attack Poodle.


All the best,

Overlander
It is better to travel hopefully.............but, always be prepared for the worst!
 
airlinelover
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:43 pm



Quoting Overlander (Reply 3):
I find your post unacceptable from many points.



Quoting Baroque (Reply 4):
 checkmark  also from many points.

I'm going to have to go with those..

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 7):
I have made my views pretty clear in other threads, and don't particularly want to repeat them here.

Don't post a topic and expect to not have to justify your views or explain them. If you did in other threads, fine, but they are not this thread. You probably should not have posted this thread if you didn't want to get questioned about your views.
Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
 
ltbewr
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:45 pm

There is absolutly no justification for 'wife beating' or any physical abuse of anybody including children under the guise of a faith belief. Indeed it may be a sin against the faith to do such acts. Some faiths may have structures for a woman to cite complaints against a man, but they are rarely used in the modern day where we have governmetnal agencies to do that. A conflict develops as to certain countries and the 'western' world, as in many places, there is no place for an abused woman to go to or to make a decent income to survive on their own outside of a marriage if they leave their husbands.
 
airlinelover
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Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:03 am

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:51 pm



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 14):
There is absolutly no justification for 'wife beating' or any physical abuse of anybody including children under the guise of a faith belief.

Under ANY belief, for that matter..
Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
 
PC12Fan
Posts: 1969
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:53 pm

"Wife beaters" - one of the lowest forms of life on the planet if you ask me. Subject them to what they dish out, things would be different.  irked 
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
cfalk
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:59 pm



Quoting Overlander (Reply 12):
You will have to educate me further as this is the first time I have read your bigotry.

If I said that I feel that Nazism is evil, and should be wiped out, (and let's say I said this 70 years ago), would that make me a bigot? Or a realist?

I believe that Islam, as widely followed today, is just as evil and dangerous as Nazism ever was. And even more so - as there were never 1.3 billion Nazis, nor were nuclear weapons and easy international travel in the mix as well.

This is because Islam, unlike other religions, demands that secular governments (i.e. separation of church and state) cannot be tolerated, and that other cultures and faiths must be subjugated and "made to feel low", and subject to Islamic Law. Read the Qu'ran - it's all in there. The idea of "live and let live" simply does not exist within the confines of Islam.

I am convinced that the 21st century will be the bloodiest century the world has ever seen, and it will take many years and millions of lives before the civilized world even accepts to meet the threat simply out of fear of appearing "bigoted".
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
halls120
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:00 pm



Quoting Overlander (Reply 12):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 10):
Life isn't fair.

Ahhh bless, It is not a nice thing to be someones attack Poodle.

LOL, i'm more a retriever than a poodle.....

But getting back to the substance of this particular discussion, let's assume I'm a proponent of the death penalty. If I post an article that is favorable to my POV, why should I be required to "balance" that article with one that is opposed to the DP? Because that is exactly what your are criticizing the OP for not doing.

Quoting Airlinelover (Reply 13):
Quoting Overlander (Reply 3):
I find your post unacceptable from many points.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 4):
also from many points.

I'm going to have to go with those..

All these "going with" posts are quite amusing.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:16 pm



Quoting Airlinelover (Reply 15):
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 14):
There is absolutly no justification for 'wife beating' or any physical abuse of anybody including children under the guise of a faith belief.

Under ANY belief, for that matter..

Wrong. Islam justifies it.

Sura 004.034 (3 different translations)
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

From the Hadith:

Bukhari (72:715) - A woman came to Muhammad and begged her to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that she it is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires.

Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."

Abu Dawud (2141) - "Iyas bin ‘Abd Allah bin Abi Dhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not beat Allah’s handmaidens, but when ‘Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them. Then many women came round the family of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) complaining against their husbands. So the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) said : Many women have gone round Muhammad’s family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you." At first, Muhammad forbade men from beating their wives, but he rescinded this once it was reported that women were becoming emboldened toward their husbands. Beatings are sometimes necessary to keep women in their place.

Abu Dawud (2142) - "The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife."

Ishaq 969 - Commands that a married woman be "put in a separate room and beaten lightly" if she "act in a sexual manner toward others." According to the Hadith, this can be for an offense as petty as merely being alone with a man to whom she is not related.

In summary, according to both the Qur'an and Hadith, a woman may indeed have physical harm done to her if the circumstances warrant, with one such allowance being in the case of disobedience. This certainly does not mean that all Muslim men beat their wives, only that Islam allows them.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
overlander
Posts: 139
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:16 pm

It is very unfortunate that a very serious matter that happens in all countries regardless of beliefs or culture has been brought up in such a matter.

Regardless of the motives of this thread, it highlights how terrible it is for a woman (or man) to live their life in fear in a place that should normally be a sanctuary - their home.

All the best,

Overlander
It is better to travel hopefully.............but, always be prepared for the worst!
 
baroque
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:27 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 11):
Here are the facts. In Western and/or Christian societies, violence against women, honor killings, denial of rights etc. are disapproved of and generally punished where reasonable evidence exists. They are not accepted with a nod and a wink from the authorities as they are in Islam on a widespread scale.

Now we are getting close to your agenda. I told you most of the hits were how to stop wife beating, but it seems that still came to you as a surprise.

So this will also be a surprise I guess
http://www.wocati.org/tofaeono.html
DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN: "You can do to them whatever you wish"
by Joan Alleluia Filemoni-Tofaeono Weavers' Program
South Pacific Association of Theological Schools (SPATS) Fiji Islands

You are going to have to read it to find why she had that subtitle. But a hint:
"In the island Pacific context, religion is the life-giving stream in most communities and the most influential of all is the Christian religion. The ordained ministers who are considered as the earthly messengers of the Christian God are treated with such awe and veneration. They remain still, despite the many changes in society, the most influential persons in the life of the congregation and most communities. The better equipped the ordained clergy are in their theological training to work with persons affected by life crises, the more aware and informed the parishioners will become of their role in the problem and in preventing serious consequences. The application of forgiveness and unconditional Christian love in violent cases only encourages more violence, thus avoiding dealing with the destructive violent behaviors. Forgiveness must go hand in hand with justice. "

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/68708/
Is a bit controversial with a title of "Bush Accepts Violence Against Women as Long as US Allies Inflict It"

For a WHO comparative study
http://www.path.org/files/GBV_rvaw_complete.pdf
For the statistic % of women physically assaulted by a partner in the last 12 mo:
For 8 African countries, range 5% to 27% (Zambia).
Latin America and Carribean (16 countries) range 2 (Peru) to 27% (Nicaragua).
N America 2 countries 1-3.
Asia and W Pac (14 countries) 2% (Indonesia) to 38% (RoK), India on various surveys ranges from 10 to 25%.
Europe 18 countries 2 (Georgia) to 10 (Romania) although a N London survey was 12%.
E Med 3 "countries" 11 to 13 % Egypt, 32% Israel, 52% W Bank and Gaza.

Just another 256 pages to read!!! Many glass houses around it seems.

[Edited 2008-01-04 08:00:21]
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:39 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 17):
The idea of "live and let live" simply does not exist within the confines of Islam.

Nor in christianity.

The liberal modern societies of today are a result of secularization, not of christianity. Our own societies have been very similar to what you ascribe to Islam when christianity was in a comparable phase a few centuries ago.

What the muslim societies need is secularization, not christian missionaries.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:51 pm



Quoting Overlander (Reply 20):
It is very unfortunate that a very serious matter that happens in all countries regardless of beliefs or culture has been brought up in such a matter.

How has it been brought up in a "such a manner" as to be offensive?

Quoting Overlander (Reply 20):
Regardless of the motives of this thread, it highlights how terrible it is for a woman (or man) to live their life in fear in a place that should normally be a sanctuary - their home

Concur completely.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 22):
What the muslim societies need is secularization, not christian missionaries.

Sadly, I don't think we're going to see the necessary improvement any time in the near term.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:04 pm



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 23):
Sadly, I don't think we're going to see the necessary improvement any time in the near term.

Yeah, it doesn't look like it at this time; But I think it is quite possible that the general populations are increasingly getting fed up with the big words, the violence and the total lack of positive results from the radicals (not just in muslim countries, one could add...! ).
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:00 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 22):
The liberal modern societies of today are a result of secularization, not of christianity. Our own societies have been very similar to what you ascribe to Islam when christianity was in a comparable phase a few centuries ago.

There is a very important difference.

Yes, Christianity went through a coniption centuries ago, including the Inquisitions, Crusades and the wars between one sort of christian and another. But they happened due to basic politics. Nowhere in the Bible (specifically the new Testament, due to abrogation) does it say, "Go forth and kill those who don't agree with you". That concept was put forward not by Christian scripture but by power-hungry (and secular) monarchs and clergymen. It took us a while, but we finally realized that the Bible and Jesus' teachings never advocated such behavior.

That is not the case with Islam, which advocates the expansion of Islam by the sword, and the subjugation of all peoples to Islam, and other acts of violence. Muhammed was no Jesus. Jesus was a pacifist. Muhammed was anything but.

The Qur'an:

Sura (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." There is a good case to be made that the overall context of these verses is defensive war, however, there are two worrisome pieces to this passage. The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of "persecution." The second is that fighting may persist until "religion is for Allah."



Sura (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."



Sura (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."



Sura (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."



Sura (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of killing Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').



Sura (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."



Sura (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"



Sura (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."



Sura (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage not only criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, but also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Qur'an, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad).



Sura (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"



Sura (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"



Sura (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."



Sura (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"



Sura (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."



Sura (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."



Sura (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."



Sura (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."



Sura (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The "striving" spoken of here is Jihad.



Sura (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."


Sura (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"



Sura (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.



Sura (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew."


Sura (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."



Sura (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."


Sura (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."



Sura (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."



Sura (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"



Sura (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an)." "Strive against" is Jihad, obviously not in the personal context. It's also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.



Sura (47:4) - "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"



Sura (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost: for Allah is with you,"



Sura (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom."



Sura (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"



Sura (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way"



Sura (61:10-12) - "O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity." This verse was given in battle. It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.



Sura (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end." The root word of "Jihad" is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include "hypocrites," those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such.



From the Hadith:



Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."



Bukhari (52:256) - The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." In this command, Muhammad establishes that it is permissible to kill non-combatants in the process of killing a perceived enemy. This provides justification for the many Islamic terror bombings.



Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist)



Abu Dawud (14:2527) - The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious



Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah



Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah



Muslim (1:149) - "Abu Dharr reported: I said: Messenger of Allah, which of the deeds is the best? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause..."



Muslim (20:4645) - "...He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa'id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!"



Muslim (20:4696) - "the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: 'One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite.'"



Muslim (19:4321-4323) - Three separate hadith in which Muhammad shrugs over the news that innocent children were killed in a raid by his men against unbelievers. His response: "They are of them (meaning the enemy)."



Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power." Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad's men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim.



Ibn Ishaq: 327 “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”



Ibn Ishaq: 990 Lest anyone think that cutting off someone's head while screaming 'Allah Akbar!' is a modern custom, here is an account of that very practice under Muhammad, who seems to approve.


Quoting Klaus (Reply 22):
What the muslim societies need is secularization, not christian missionaries.

I don't disagree with you there.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
airlinelover
Posts: 5287
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:03 am

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:03 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 19):
Quoting Airlinelover (Reply 15):
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 14):
There is absolutly no justification for 'wife beating' or any physical abuse of anybody including children under the guise of a faith belief.

Under ANY belief, for that matter..

Wrong. Islam justifies it.

Bullcrap.. There is no justification there. It is beign twisted in such a way. There is ABSOLUTELY NO legal, moral, or ANY justification for wife/husband/child/animal/whatever beating.. PERIOD.

Just because some religious text says it's ok does not mean it is ok, nor justifiable.

Chris
Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:12 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 25):
That is not the case with Islam, which advocates the expansion of Islam by the sword, and the subjugation of all peoples to Islam, and other acts of violence. Muhammed was no Jesus. Jesus was a pacifist. Muhammed was anything but.

Jesus is also recognized as a prophet in islam, and there are very different interpretations of islam.

Of course there are differences, but with everything we know about present and history of the world, the excesses we see now in the name of islam are very similar to the earlier ones in the name of christianity. There is also a significant level of radical and chauvinistic hinduism.

Humans have a universal capacity for fanaticism as well as all kinds of enlightenment, and you can plug any kind of religious or secular philosophy into either of them with rather similar results.

I don't think it serves any useful purpose to concentrate on the label instead of the underlying problems and mechanisms which are quite independent of what the respective headline is.
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:17 pm



Quoting Airlinelover (Reply 26):
Bullcrap.. There is no justification there. It is beign twisted in such a way. There is ABSOLUTELY NO legal, moral, or ANY justification for wife/husband/child/animal/whatever beating.. PERIOD.

Just because some religious text says it's ok does not mean it is ok, nor justifiable.

No twisting necessary. You asked for justification (the rationale which makes and act or decision righteous), and the Qu'ran provides such justification.

Apparently, you yourself do not accept Islamic values and teaching, and thus this justification does not impress you. On this I completely agree with you. But for a Muslim, particularly some poor illiterate sod who knows nothing but this sort of stuff, it does indeed provide justification for inhuman acts.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:26 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 28):
But for a Muslim, particularly some poor illiterate sod who knows nothing but this sort of stuff, it does indeed provide justification for inhuman acts.

Well, that more or less corresponds with the old testament being used by people to justify all kinds of atrocious behaviour as well. It is just a gradual difference, and it has a lot more to do with the presence or absence of proper education than with the association with any particular religion or ideology per se.
 
airlinelover
Posts: 5287
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:03 am

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:38 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 28):
Apparently, you yourself do not accept Islamic values and teaching, and thus this justification does not impress you. On this I completely agree with you. But for a Muslim, particularly some poor illiterate sod who knows nothing but this sort of stuff, it does indeed provide justification for inhuman acts.

Not all followers of Islam believe that their religion can justify it either.. It is used by those who want to escape what they did wrong..
Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:10 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 29):
Well, that more or less corresponds with the old testament being used by people to justify all kinds of atrocious behaviour as well.

Which is why both religions embrace the concept of Abrogation - what comes after overrules what came before. In Christianity, the New Testament overrides everything that came before, which is why Christians don't feel so bound to the rules in, say, Leviticus. As the New Testament preaches a much more peaceful and loving philosophy than the Old Testament, that works out fairly well.

Islam is much the same, except that the later parts of the Qu'ran largely preach war and intolerance towards everyone, and describe the time when Muhammed went on a mad rampage throughout Arabia slaughtering everyone in his way. This abrogates the more peaceful message in the earlier parts of the Qu'ran.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
airlinelover
Posts: 5287
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:03 am

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:38 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 31):

Islam is much the same, except that the later parts of the Qu'ran largely preach war and intolerance towards everyone, and describe the time when Muhammed went on a mad rampage throughout Arabia slaughtering everyone in his way. This abrogates the more peaceful message in the earlier parts of the Qu'ran.

So that's how they "justify" it? Our god did so we can too?
Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
 
IADCA
Posts: 1346
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:33 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 25):
There is a very important difference.

Yes, Christianity went through a coniption centuries ago, including the Inquisitions, Crusades and the wars between one sort of christian and another. But they happened due to basic politics.

The Inquisition and Crusades were, broadly put, internal purges and religious expansionism driven by a mix of political and religious motives. They were not solely political, nor solely religious; for example, a large part of the Spanish Inquisition may have been backed by various Spanish royalty looking to strengthen their economic holds on their kingdoms, but its foot soldiers were mainly motivated by religion, and couldn't care less about the economic machinations. I'd argue that the same is quite true of modern Islam. The ways in which radical Muslim governments work today is actually quite similar in structure and rhetoric to Christian kingdoms not long before the Renaissance. Now, let's assume that Christianity dates from around the time of Christ, and Islam from around the time of Muhammad. That makes Islam, give or take, 600 years younger than Christianity. What did governments in Christian countries function 600 years ago? How did politics and religion interact in the younger years of the religion?

I'm not apologizing or excusing the actions of either set of leaders. Perhaps the Muslim leaders are more blameworthy given the lessons of history and the presence of alternative and viable forms of government. But it's not really about Islam: Christian "true believers" in the 1400s would likely have reacted to the modern American system in a similar way that Muslim "true believers" have today. People absolutely, irrevocably convinced of the righteousness of their causes will stop at nothing. The conductors of the Inquisitions were this, the Crusaders were to some degree, and so are modern Islamic terrorists to some degree.

The problem is people who take the personal lessons of religion and seek to impose them on others; I've never understood this. The lessons of religion are only really meaningful as a guide to one's own life. They only help you if you accept them in a genuine manner, rather than simply going through the motions due to external compulsion. However, the same applies to secularization; it too can't be forced, even though it's the obvious solution to radical religion.
 
jafa39
Posts: 4320
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:17 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
even that between a father and daughter

WTF????? its the EVEN bit that gets me....like a daughter is the lowest form of life...WRONG....the lowest from of life is your daughter's boyfriend!!!
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....
 
ScarletHarlot
Posts: 4251
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:35 pm

Why did you not just title your post, "Interesting article in support of wife beating which I will use to justify my hatred of Islam and Muslims"?

Sorry - I am not playing your game.
But that was when I ruled the world
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:26 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 31):
Which is why both religions embrace the concept of Abrogation - what comes after overrules what came before. In Christianity, the New Testament overrides everything that came before, which is why Christians don't feel so bound to the rules in, say, Leviticus. As the New Testament preaches a much more peaceful and loving philosophy than the Old Testament, that works out fairly well.

The overwhelming similarities between christianity and islam at comparable ages (in their respective "puberty" as religious movements, in a way) speak against your claims. There is much more evidence for inherent human tendencies which manifest themselves in similar ways pretty much regardless of the ideology people are living with.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 38):
After over 10,000 attacks motivated by Islam over the last 6 years, It's not phobia - it's fact.

Your conclusions might be justified without the bloody history of christianity. When looking at our own history, however, it's just more of the same, a kind of time-delayed mirror image which we may or may not find appealing.

Quoting ScarletHarlot (Reply 40):
Why did you not just title your post, "Interesting article in support of wife beating which I will use to justify my hatred of Islam and Muslims"?

It's a bit unoriginal by now, indeed.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:26 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 19):

Sura 004.034 (3 different translations)
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.



Quoting Overlander (Reply 3):

I find your post unacceptable from many points.



Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 33):
Another islamophobic threads, I am losing count now.

.. ....the typical comments from thread starter..why am I not surprised?


...also, the verse which the instigator (thread starter) cites is taken well out of context....but lets not let some facts get in the way, shall we?

....here is a good read also..

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...x?qid=20070826214937AAOSBBF&show=7

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 38):

After over 10,000 attacks motivated by Islam over the last 6 years, It's not phobia - it's fact.

....and over 10,000 domestic abuse cases here in the United States by non-Muslims, its not a phobia - it's a fact..


..and while we're at it, why not expand further..

"The myth of the kind gentle, Jewish husband has been broken down. The evidence that Jewish wife beating exists is strong. Statistics and headlines assail us with facts. 'One out of six' or 'one out of seven' Israeli women is regularly beaten at home. The estimated minimum figure is 100,000 battered women in Israel (of whom 40,000 end up hospitalized); the maximum number is 200,000 (which includes the Arab population). [1]"

[1] Sasha Sadan, "Day of Protest Decries Violence against Women," Jerusalem Post, November 26, 1993 (A3).

http://www.utoronto.ca/wjudaism/journal/vol1n2/v1n2grae.htm

..since we're on the topic of "lets take items out of context"..I have some stuff..

Book of Deuteronomy “Kill him. Be the first to stone him. And then let everyone else stone him too.” (13:9) .....“even your brother or your son or your daughter or the wife you love or your closest friend.” (13:6)

..Here's more..." (12:2) Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree: (12:3) And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place.

(2:34). And we took all his cities at that time, killing the inhabitants of them, men and women and children. We left nothing of them:

I guess Christianity advocates killing people, including next of kin.....as well as pillaging....

[Edited 2008-01-04 15:42:21]
"Up the Irons!"
 
steeler83
Posts: 7391
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:39 pm



Quoting Overlander (Reply 3):
Why do you post it and then ask for comments?

Surely you must have a view on it yourself or do you find it acceptable and hope you may find some kindred spirits?

I find your post unacceptable from many points.

haha!!!

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 16):
"Wife beaters" - one of the lowest forms of life on the planet if you ask me. Subject them to what they dish out, things would be different.

I agree, even lower than cockroaches. Since when does beating your own wife, your life-long partner for richer or poorer, better or worse, sickness and health, etc, ever give you vallor and respect? It does not. Wife beaters are nothing but punk-ass dishonorable cowardly degenerates who deserve to be just left alone to wither away and left up to God to bring judgement of their eternity...

Translation: Life without parol for these low-life jerks!!!
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:44 pm



Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 43):
I agree, even lower than cockroaches. Since when does beating your own wife, your life-long partner for richer or poorer, better or worse, sickness and health, etc, ever give you vallor and respect? It does not. Wife beaters are nothing but punk-ass dishonorable cowardly degenerates who deserve to be just left alone to wither away and left up to God to bring judgement of their eternity...

 checkmark ..absolutely agree...
"Up the Irons!"
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:36 am

It seems curious to me how we can cut and paste anything from the Koran off the internet, with little understanding of Islam or its theology, and cleverly use it to justify our pre-established stereotypes and predjudices, resulting in yet another tedious and rather small minded urination contest.

Garbage in, garbage out.  Yeah sure

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
cfalk
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:06 pm



Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 45):
It seems curious to me how we can cut and paste anything from the Koran off the internet, with little understanding of Islam or its theology

You miss the point. As a Jesuit, you know very well that most Christians are also ignorant of the background theology behind Christianity - Augustine, Assisi, etc. They base their religious life on the most obvious part of the faith - what's in the Bible, with a little guidance from a priest, perhaps. Islam is the same, and if what you say is true, then most of the Islamic world is guilty of the same thing, and use the same quotes I provided to justify honor killings, terrorism etc.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
sbworcs
Posts: 667
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:19 pm

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:28 pm

I will start by saying that I am neither an Islam or Christianity follower.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 25):
As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

But surely the Bible states that only "believers" will be allowed entrance into the kingdom of heaven with all others off to hell?? Surely a similar message to the one above.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 25):
"Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Could be taken as anything. Christian's see themselves as "fighting" for Jesus and promoting his word?

Yes there are radical elements to Islam that seem hellbent on destroying everything non islamic but then again there are radical elements to ALL religions, Christianity included, that would prefer all other non believers would disappear.

As to your comment regarding Isalim being worse than Nazism - A totally rediculous idea - show me PROOF that Islam is trying to overrun the world through Ethnic Cleansing of others for the religous beliefs on such a mass scale?

ANY relegious book, Bible included, can be taken by believers as proof or disproof of personally held beliefs. Most religious sects within relgions take the bits of the holy book that suit their needs or beliefs
The best way forwards is upwards!
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:29 pm



Quoting Sbworcs (Reply 47):
But surely the Bible states that only "believers" will be allowed entrance into the kingdom of heaven with all others off to hell?? Surely a similar message to the one above.

True, but the judgement is left to God. It is never stated in the Bible that Christians have any duty to go to war against unbelievers.

Quoting Sbworcs (Reply 47):
Yes there are radical elements to Islam that seem hellbent on destroying everything non islamic but then again there are radical elements to ALL religions, Christianity included, that would prefer all other non believers would disappear.

Islam is associated with Islamic terrorism because that is the association that the terrorists themselves choose to make. The make videos proclaiming how they seek heaven and they are doing the will of Allah. Their last words before blowing up women and children is nearly always "Allahu Akbar!"

Those who compare crime committed by people who happen to be nominal members of other religions to religious terror committed explicitly in the name of Islam are comparing apples to oranges.

Yes, some of the abortion clinic bombers were religious (as some enjoy pointing out), but consider the scope of the problem. There were five deadly attacks over a 35 year period in the U.S. Seven people died. This is an average of one death every five years.

By contrast, Islamic terrorists staged over ten thousand deadly attacks in just the six years following September 11th, 2001. If you go back to 1971, when Muslim armies in Bangladesh began the mass slaughter of Hindus, through the years of Jihad in the Sudan, Kashmir and Algeria, and the present-day Sunni-Shia violence in Iraq, the number of innocents killed in the name of Islam probably exceeds five million over this same period.

In the last six years, there have been perhaps a dozen or so religiously-inspired killings by people of all other faiths combined. No other religion produces the killing sprees that Islam does nearly every day of the year. Neither do they have verses in their holy texts that arguably support it. Nor do they have large groups across the globe dedicated to the mass murder of people who worship a different god, as the broader community of believers struggles with ambivalence and a radical clergy that supports the terror.

Quoting Sbworcs (Reply 47):
As to your comment regarding Isalim being worse than Nazism - A totally rediculous idea - show me PROOF that Islam is trying to overrun the world through Ethnic Cleansing of others for the religous beliefs on such a mass scale?

Read the Qu'ran. It's all there. Mohammed himself led dozens of military campaigns for exactly that purpose, and Muslims are supposed to follow his example, aren't they?
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
sbworcs
Posts: 667
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:19 pm

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:38 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 49):
Islam is associated with Islamic terrorism because that is the association that the terrorists themselves choose to make.

But surely that is the Terrorist choosing the relegion not the religion choosing the terrorist?
The best way forwards is upwards!
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:51 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 49):
n the last six years, there have been perhaps a dozen or so religiously-inspired killings by people of all other faiths combined. No other religion produces the killing sprees that Islam does nearly every day of the year.

What can I find on the BEEB TODAY.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7172217.stm
That is FARC in Colombia - erm Catholic.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/crossing_continents/7140342.stm
Not killing but "Escaping El Salvador's sex traffickers"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7171008.stm
Burma marks Independence Day - that will be Buddhists I think.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7171056.stm
UK detectives arrive in Pakistan - Bhutto murder - either Islamic terrorists, or an the ISI, a state entity, so does that count as Islam or not?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7171253.stm
Sri Lanka 'needs UN monitors' - Buddhist v Hindhus.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7172609.stm
Afghanistan appeals for food aid - Western powers, mostly Christian I suppose, V Islamic locals and some imports from Pakistan and maybe other places.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7172779.stm
Iraqi soldier 'killed US troops' - that headline must go down in the dog bites man group. Western armies v Islamic local group and possibly some outside Islamic groups, with the Iraqi army having doubtful allegiances.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7169365.stm
Israeli raids in Gaza kill nine - Israelis (could count as Zionist or Jewish) v Palestinians, Islamic, but could be Christian dead too.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7167655.stm
Algerian suicide bomb kills four - Islamic group killing Muslims

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7172868.stm
Kibaki hints at unity government - bad politics with overtones of tribal groups, possibly some religion too.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7169040.stm
US to send investigators to Sudan - part civil war with part economic, part racial and part religious bases. To some extent Islamic government sponsored groups v mainly Christian groups.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7167294.stm
Fighting rocks Nigerian oil city - that part is economic, with Christian tribal groups. Violence involving the Islamic north is less common over the past few years.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7170374.stm
China ships food aid to Zimbabwe - the madness of Mugabe, I don't know that you can ship this on to any particular religion, but tribal groupings are significant.

Now it is the case that Iraq and Islamic groups would constitute about 90 of the killings on any given day. But those would not have occurred if the west had not bombed and invaded destroying a basically secular society and arranging a constitution that invited religious extremism. Ok, you got the religious extremism, but surely the process that lead to that is at least as much at fault.

The countries with the worst fighting were invaded by the US and its allies. That is at least as significant a fact as anything that may or may not be read into the Koran.

As I understand matters, most Muslims (as in about 99%) agree that the ban on attacking other Muslims is absolute. It is mostly the Salafi sect that thinks otherwise. Killings will arise from earlier killings, but they driven by tribal custom rather than religion.

Moral of the BBC links. Religions involved are Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism. Poor government and economic conditions are major contributors.

Invading countries tends to destabilize them and produce poor outcomes.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:54 pm



Quoting Sbworcs (Reply 50):
Quoting Cfalk (Reply 49):
Islam is associated with Islamic terrorism because that is the association that the terrorists themselves choose to make.

But surely that is the Terrorist choosing the relegion not the religion choosing the terrorist?

Even if it is the terrorist who is choosing the religion, the fact that the religion provides the justification for acts of violence ought to be very troubling to anyone else who follows the religion.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
PC12Fan
Posts: 1969
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:50 pm

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:01 pm

A few posts in this thread have just finalized the fact that I will no longer practice any religion. People fight over it, and kill in the name of it and it's nothing short of appalling. I will continue to believe in what we are supposed to do, live in peace toward your fellow man. I will pray to whatever God is listening and hope he hears me. The rest of it is crap.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:36 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 46):
You miss the point. As a Jesuit, you know very well that most Christians are also ignorant of the background theology behind Christianity - Augustine, Assisi, etc. They base their religious life on the most obvious part of the faith - what's in the Bible, with a little guidance from a priest, perhaps. Islam is the same, and if what you say is true, then most of the Islamic world is guilty of the same thing, and use the same quotes I provided to justify honor killings, terrorism etc.

Are you suggesting such "background theology" is irrelevent? There's a certain self-justirication in that statement which suggests that ignorant, emotivist reactionism is a valid response to ignorant, emotivist reactionism. It's a circular agrgument which goes nowhere, disabuses any kind of thoughtful discussion, and most of all, excuses people from thinking and listening. It also flies in the face of basic Catholic and Christian teaching which says we do need to be informed, to study and learn. We do not all need to be theologians; all we need are closed mouths and open minds.

That is the fundimental problem with such forms proof-texting. Just because people engage in it does not make it good theology. Nor is it appropriate for Catholics, or any Christians for that matter, to use hatred and predjudice to counter hatred and predjudice.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
steeler83
Posts: 7391
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:57 pm



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 44):
..absolutely agree...

Thanks a lot!

What else does "Better or worse, richer or poorer, sickness and health til death do we part" mean? Seriousy, when I marry my lady, I am going to treat those vows like the constitution, because that is what I truely believe in. Wife beating, as I said above in a somewhat verbose fashion is cowardly and dishonorable, as is divorce.

Anyone who committs any of the above, especially the topic of this thread, obviously does not take those vows seriously...

No offense to the divorce bit. There are some very good reasons, especially if the victim of wife beating wants out!  Smile
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
huskyaviation
Posts: 912
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:27 pm



Quoting Sbworcs (Reply 43):
But surely that is the Terrorist choosing the relegion not the religion choosing the terrorist?

I don't agree with this, but even if I did, then isn't that alone a concern? All of these terrorists are choosing the *same* religion to justify their actions? Is that not a red flag?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 21):
The liberal modern societies of today are a result of secularization, not of christianity. Our own societies have been very similar to what you ascribe to Islam when christianity was in a comparable phase a few centuries ago.

Basically this is a backdoor admission that Islam as a religion is several centuries behind other religions in terms of its theology, thinking, opinion, and practice.

Quoting Sbworcs (Reply 41):
Yes there are radical elements to Islam that seem hellbent on destroying everything non islamic but then again there are radical elements to ALL religions, Christianity included, that would prefer all other non believers would disappear.

Hard to deny, but the radicalized elements of other religions manifest themselves in much different ways than Islam. Can you really argue otherwise?

Quoting Sbworcs (Reply 41):
ANY relegious book, Bible included, can be taken by believers as proof or disproof of personally held beliefs. Most religious sects within relgions take the bits of the holy book that suit their needs or beliefs

And more followers of the Quran use the text to justify their murderous intentions than any other religion. This is also difficult to deny given the current state of the world. Your effort to be politically correct is distorting reality.

It's true that any religion can be radicalized and bastardized to justify terror/murder/beating, etc., but Islam seems to be the best vehicle to justify these viewpoints. This cannot be denied. There is no Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, or Catholic equivalents to an underground worldwide network built to bring terror, death and destruction (and sub-network/sub-groups) like Al-Qaeda, all done in the name of so-called religion. This isn't singling out a particular religion based on conjecture and opinion, it's fact, folks. If you believe that Islam is PURELY a religion of peace that does not have a built-in predisposition for fomenting bloodshed, you're just sticking your head in the sand.

If Islam is truly a religion of peace, It's time for truly moderate Muslims to step up and winnow out the crazies in their own religion. Muslims seem to be hell-bent on defending their religion as a religion of peace, but then not really doing much to moderate those that adopt more sinister versions of their religion. Actions speak louder than words, and right now, actions are speaking volumes.

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