airlinelover
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New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:45 pm

Since Soren seems tired of Fox News, I'll give TWO sources..

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/01/07/nj.slavery.bill/index.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,320912,00.html


I call this worthless. The people of the state of New Jersey are not the people who were the cause of, supporters of, or starters of slavery. They are decendents. They hold no blame or responsibility for what people did over 100 years ago.


From Fox:
TRENTON, N.J. — New Jersey became the first Northern state to apologize for slavery, as legislators approved a resolution Monday expressing "profound regret" for the state's role in the practice.

The Assembly and the Senate 29-2 both voted overwhelmingly to approve the resolution, which expresses the Legislature's opinion without requiring action by the governor.
.
.
.
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Opponents said the apology was a meaningless gesture. Assemblyman Richard Merkt, a Republican, said everyone deems slavery an abomination.


CNN has nothing like that, indeed they have a lot less in their story..

Nice to see tax money is paying these government people for something so "meaningful"..  sarcastic 

What a complete and utter waste of government time, resources, breath, and ink..
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NWADC9
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:07 pm

Absolutely stupid.

First, NJ, being a Northern state, wasn't one of the slave states. Second, there is not one person who was alive back then still breathing to this day.

New Jersey's whole government sucks, and the smoke is probably from their dope, but this is another low.
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airfoilsguy
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:27 pm



Quoting Airlinelover (Thread starter):
What a complete and utter waste of government time, resources, breath, and ink..

Just of Politicians posturing and posing for holy pictures.
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ltbewr
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:50 pm

It is a cheap, attention getting and easy way for politicans to look good to the Black voters in the state. There was small but significant amounts of enslavement in New Jersey during the colonial era and until shortly after the creation of the USA.
Now if they would really do something that would really help like spending a lot more money for basic education for the far too many poor and poorly educated blacks in the state, that would be a real act.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:42 pm



Quoting Airlinelover (Thread starter):
They hold no blame or responsibility for what people did over 100 years ago.

Doesn't matter, as long as there are still people whining over things that happened decades or centuries ago, they will continue to blame present-day people for it. No different to some tards blaming Germans of being responsible for Hitler coming to power never mind the fact that like 90% of all Germans living today either weren't even born back then or were underage minors. The 'Blame Game' will always be popular  Yeah sure .
 
MDorBust
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:52 pm

Why can't NJ apologize for some of their more current slights against humanity... like Bon Jovi?
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:07 pm

By the standards set here by the State of New Jersey, countries in the "Old World" had to issue catalogues of things to apologize for  bored   bored 
 
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yowza
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:09 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 5):
Why can't NJ apologize for some of their more current slights against humanity... like Bon Jovi?

hahahah I love it

YOWza
 
skyservice_330
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:41 pm

Governments make symbolic gestures all the time, this is no different. Legislatures regularly take positions, express opinions, and recognize events or occurrences. Whether it is recognizing the contributions of a citizen or group, declaring a 'day', or apologizing for slavery.

Quoting Airlinelover (Thread starter):
Nice to see tax money is paying these government people for something so "meaningful"..

What a complete and utter waste of government time, resources, breath, and ink..

No doubt that the staffer(s) who wrote up the motion could have been working on something else, arguably something more meaningful, but in the grand scheme of government activities, the time, money, and resources required to pass a motion (requiring no action) is relatively straightforward and not a heavy drain on resources.
 
Falcon84
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:47 pm

The last slave died probably 50 or 60 years ago. So, why apologize? Those who suffered it's wrath are long-gone.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 5):
Why can't NJ apologize for some of their more current slights against humanity... like Bon Jovi?

Hey, anyone who says they'd never let PacMan Jones play on his Arena Football Team is all right in my book!
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moo
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:54 pm



Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 1):
First, NJ, being a Northern state, wasn't one of the slave states.

What exactly do you mean by that? A quick Google (and a longer double checking of facts) indicates that slavery was certainly alive and well in NJ right up until 1846, when it was abolished. An census in 1800 showed over 12,000 black slaves present in NJ, and by 1830 NJ held over 60% of slaves present in the northern states.

Just because it wasn't a southern state doesn't mean slavery was not rife.
 
BN747
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:32 pm



Quoting Airlinelover (Thread starter):
I call this worthless. The people of the state of New Jersey are not the people who were the cause of, supporters of, or starters of slavery. They are decendents. They hold no blame or responsibility for what people did over 100 years ago.



Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 1):
Absolutely stupid.



Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 2):
Just of Politicians posturing and posing for holy pictures.



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 3):
It is a cheap, attention getting and easy way for politicans to look good to the Black voters in the state.



Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 4):
Doesn't matter, as long as there are still people whining over things that happened decades or centuries ago, they will continue to blame present-day people for it.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
The last slave died probably 50 or 60 years ago. So, why apologize? Those who suffered it's wrath are long-gone.

Ignorance unchecked couldn't find a more stirling example of the above...

...if Japan offered an apology to China for it's wrongs, to Korea for it's transgressions there, to the USA, and on and on..

..the Turks acknowledge it's wrong doing against the Armenians...

..the Chilean State to the people for the Pinochet admin.

.and I can go on and on...

...and you people can't see worth in officially acknowledging and apologizing for A WRONG larger and more grotesque than all the above. All I can say is there's no hope for you in understanding humanity nor it's value... at all.

Good post Moo...


BN747
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LAXspotter
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:50 pm



Quoting BN747 (Reply 11):
...if Japan offered an apology to China for it's wrongs, to Korea for it's transgressions there, to the USA, and on and on..

..the Turks acknowledge it's wrong doing against the Armenians...

..the Chilean State to the people for the Pinochet admin.

.and I can go on and on...

Its quite amazing how the US is pushing Turkey to apologize to the Armenian people yet many people within the US somehow see something wrong with a formal apology, so what if all the slaves have died, if it does something to clear your moral conscience so be it. Most of the rest of the world feels that Germans are somehow guilty for the actions of Nazi Germany, most of the world want 1.5 Billion muslims to apologize for the actions of 19 men.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
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moo
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:09 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 11):
Good post Moo...

Thankyou, but you may not like my actual point of view as in a way I agree with the others you quoted - the slavery in question ended 150 years ago, the people with the ability to make an apology today have no connection to the people who carried out the slavery then, so why should they?

Recently I was approached while out shopping and asked to sign two petitions - one to call on the British Government to issue a formal apology for Britain's part in slavery, and the other saying I was making a personal apology.

I refused on both counts, because I personally have nothing to apologise for, and I feel that my government cannot apologise on behalf of the people that lived 200 years ago.

Do I think slavery is wrong? Yes. Do I think abolition was right? Yes. Do I think people taken for slavery were not treated with the respect a human being should have been? Yes.

But I have no involvement in slavery, so I have nothing to apologise for. And the same goes for my current government. Oh, and I also feel it somewhat incorrect to apologise on behalf of someone that may not want to apologise.

Where does it end? Where do we draw the line? Who do we not apologise for?

EDITED TO SAY - I mispoke in my unedited post, I said 'slavery ended 150 years ago' - this is of course total crap, slavery still goes on around the world and people are still subject to the terror of being sold to an owner and living their life in captivity.

[Edited 2008-01-08 15:19:03]
 
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:11 pm



Quoting Airlinelover (Thread starter):

What a complete and utter waste of government time, resources, breath, and ink..

So, am I to assume you think the Emancipation Proclamation, 13th, 14th and 15th amendments are the same?

Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 1):

First, NJ, being a Northern state, wasn't one of the slave states.

Yes it was. Read Moo's post.
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airfoilsguy
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:21 pm



Quoting BN747 (Reply 11):

Ignorance unchecked couldn't find a more stirling example of the above...

Call names all you want. My point is that it is easier to apologize for things your ancestors did, and that you have no fault in, then it is to be proactive and actually DO something that has a lasting value or that actually helps current society.
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cfalk
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:29 pm



Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 1):
First, NJ, being a Northern state, wasn't one of the slave states.

Yes it was - it just got rid of the practice a few years before the Southern states.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 3):
It is a cheap, attention getting and easy way for politicans to look good to the Black voters in the state.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 5):
Why can't NJ apologize for some of their more current slights against humanity... like Bon Jovi?

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 12):
Its quite amazing how the US is pushing Turkey to apologize to the Armenian people yet many people within the US somehow see something wrong with a formal apology

There is a difference. Turkey claims that the massacre never happened, kinda like Ahmedinnerjacket and the Holocaust. Nobody in the U.S. that I've ever heard of has tried to erase history and say that slavery never happened. It did happen, and we've spent many years discussing how wrong it was. All people are seeking from Turkey is simply an acknowledgement that the event did take place, and that maybe it wasn't such a good idea. A government apology is not necessarily required.
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Falcon84
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:30 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 10):
What exactly do you mean by that? A quick Google (and a longer double checking of facts) indicates that slavery was certainly alive and well in NJ right up until 1846, when it was abolished.

I think he means at the time of the American Civil War, 1861-1865. By that time, every state north of the Mason-Dixon were not slave-holding.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 11):
...and you people can't see worth in officially acknowledging and apologizing for A WRONG larger and more grotesque than all the above.

Apologizing to WHO, BN747? All the slave are long dead. The last one died probably 60 years ago! Why apologize to people who ARE ALL DEAD? It serves no purpose.

And you cannot compare apologizing for slavery here to the Japanese apologizing to China for it's actions, circa 1931-1945, because there are STILL Chinese alive who endured that; same for Americans of Japanese descent put in internment camps during WWII while their own sons fought for this nation-different thing complete. Hell, my eye doctor for 30 years was one of those held in one of those camps. He DESERVES an apology. Chicken George, who died over 100 years ago, can't get any use from one now, can he?
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:37 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 16):
erase history and say that slavery never happened

we had a great thread about that a while back, where we saw how many people were trying to be apologetic of one of the most reprehensible crimes in history. Does it hurt anyone if someone gives an apology that might seem meaningless, for one thing it should clear one's moral coscience.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
nkops
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:49 pm



Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 1):
New Jersey's whole government sucks, and the smoke is probably from their dope, but this is another low.

Why do you think we are some much in debt as a state?? Our government officials spend money on stupid crap like this... Luckily we'll make up for it when we raise tolls 800% (that's no joke , by the way!!)
:evil:
 
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OA260
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:58 pm



Quoting Airlinelover (Thread starter):
They hold no blame or responsibility for what people did over 100 years ago.

Reminds me of this African American who had no connection to her ancestors country of Ghana until she read up on it. She then tried to sue Lloyds Bank of London as they had financed the ship that her ancestors were taken on to the USA. Then she tried to claim she was emotionally affected by this !!!

I think the courts should have ruled that Lloyds Banks should pay her ticket and re patriate her to a village with no electricity and poverty and move her away from her dreadful car/house and job in a terrible country such as the USA  Yeah sure

-------------------------------

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Falcon84
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:27 am



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 18):
Does it hurt anyone if someone gives an apology that might seem meaningless, for one thing it should clear one's moral coscience.

WTF? I DIDN'T HAVE SLAVES. I didn't support the Confederacy. I do not have a conscience to to clear on this matter, LAX. No one alive today, in the U.S. has owned slaves legally in this nation. Why should it clear THEIR conscience? What utter bullshit.

That's more PC crap, LAX, and you know it. If the slaves were still alive today, or slavery happened during our lifetimes, then I see a need to apologize to the slaves affected. But they're dead and gone now, may they rest in peace for the life they were forced to live. But APOLOGIZE? TO DEAD PEOPLE?

Sorry, no dice. Nothing to apologize for.
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nkops
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:37 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 5):
Why can't NJ apologize for some of their more current slights against humanity... like Bon Jovi?

I am soooooo sorry for that!!! hey, but we did give you the Sopranos!!!

Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 1):
First, NJ, being a Northern state, wasn't one of the slave states.

Actually, NJ was one of the largest holder of slaves in the Northern States....

[Edited 2008-01-08 16:39:26]
:evil:
 
cfalk
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:47 am



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 18):
Does it hurt anyone if someone gives an apology that might seem meaningless

Neither does it help anyone. The point is is that it is a waste of time of our public servants.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 18):
for one thing it should clear one's moral coscience

Why? It has nothing to do with me. My fathers ancestors came to America just after the Civil War. My mother was not even American. I certainly did not own any slaves.

Or am I supposed to feel some guilt because I'm a blue-eyed whitey?
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LAXspotter
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:35 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 21):
That's more PC crap, LAX, and you know it.



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 23):
That's more PC crap, LAX, and you know it.

do you want Germans to apologize for Nazi war crimes? Do want Muslims to apologize for Sept 11th and terrorist attacks? Do you want Turkey to apologize to the Armenian people?
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
BN747
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:30 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):

Apologizing to WHO, BN747? All the slave are long dead. The last one died probably 60 years ago! Why apologize to people who ARE ALL DEAD? It serves no purpose.

And you cannot compare apologizing for slavery here to the Japanese apologizing to China for it's actions, circa 1931-1945, because there are STILL Chinese alive who endured that; same for Americans of Japanese descent put in internment camps during WWII while their own sons fought for this nation-different thing complete. Hell, my eye doctor for 30 years was one of those held in one of those camps. He DESERVES an apology. Chicken George, who died over 100 years ago, can't get any use from one now, can he?

Make light amd/or jokes of all you want...but the by-product of Slavery is a people alive and well and here today. They suffer a negative stigmatism called racism that can't be unglued no matter how hard you try or wish it away. Even if there were no blacks in American today.....it would be the most correct thing for the United States of America to do - to apologize for a horrific act it's fathers profited from, allowed to happen and harmed millions. A wrong of this magnitude must have and ending, it cannot go unanswered and forgotten as many of you are advocating.

The apology is for act itself.

And if to those millions who suffered.

You're telling me (hypothetically speaking) if 2020 Nuclear powered Iraq launched and wiped out 60 Million Americans...that in 2150 if no apology were still not issued -- Americans then would NOT BE correct to demanded an apology for Iraq did 130 years ago?

...That would be okay with you?


It's like if something happened to you (resulting in your death), your family is awarded a claims settlement...though the violator (even if he died) did nothing to your family.

I know (and it's clear here) many of these other guys aren't capable of sincere and deep thought re:humanities..but you cannot be serious in what you are saying...

...if so then we should take all wrongs (committed and yet to be committed) and hope that we can stave off 'time' on order to escape responsibiltiy. It the most sure -ire fast track to self-destruction I've seen to-date..




BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Falcon84
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:40 am



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 24):
do you want Germans to apologize for Nazi war crimes?

Yes, because many people still alive were victims of those crimes.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 24):
Do want Muslims to apologize for Sept 11th and terrorist attacks?

Yes, because that is a current event, and those who died still have loved ones alive.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 24):
Do you want Turkey to apologize to the Armenian people?

Yes, because many Armenian's still around have suffered.

But to APOLOGIZE, for something that ended

Quoting BN747 (Reply 25):
Make light amd/or jokes of all you want...

Excuse me, Chicken George was a real person. Read "Roots" or buy the miniseries. Nothing I said was light and or joking. I'm dead serious. You want ME to apologize for something I did not do, was not a part of, had no hand in, and wasn't around when it occured. For what reason? It does nothing, excpet to make the PC crybabies cry even louder about the sins of their nation. We all know it was terrible. An apologiy on top of that serves no purpose whatsoever.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 25):
but the by-product of Slavery is a people alive and well and here today.

And they're alive and well and here today because 660,000 Americans died in a Civil War; because laws were written and, belatedly, enforced throughout this nation to see that they would not be second class citizens; because they bled and sacrificed even after slavery was evicted, due to Jim Crow Laws, lynchings, terror, the KKK and other evil souls wanted to deny them equality; they're alive and well because of people like Rosa Parks, Bob Abernathy and Martin Luther King, Jr, who changed the face of this country in the 1950's and 60's with peaceful, dogged, dignified determination.

That's why they're here today. And apologizing, again, to people who aren't alive doesn't do anything to change that history; in fact, I'd say it lessens the sacrifices those people made, because it cheapens what they fought for. Again, no one living now had anything to do with slavery. The sins of the fathers are NOT the sins of the sons. And I have nothing to apologize for. No one in this nation does, for that infamy. It's part of our past, and never should be forgotten. But it shouldn't be dragged up to satisfy the PC hard-on's of ultra-liberals who want to find someone to blame for everything.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 25):
.....it would be the most correct thing for the United States of America to do -

Put "politically" in front of "correct", and we see your true light. There's nothing "correct" about it. It's just stupid pandering. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 25):
You're telling me (hypothetically speaking) if 2020 Nuclear powered Iraq launched and wiped out 60 Million Americans...that in 2150 if no apology were still not issued -- Americans then would NOT BE correct to demanded an apology for Iraq did 130 years ago?

...That would be okay with you?

Perfectly. Because those living in Iraq 130 years from now, would not have had one God damned thing to do with it, and are not responsible for the actions of those 130 years before. CASE CLOSED!

Quoting BN747 (Reply 25):
It's like if something happened to you (resulting in your death), your family is awarded a claims settlement...though the violator (even if he died) did nothing to your family.

And you'd tell me you'd want me to have those I leave behind to beg for an apology-demand one? Why? I'm goine. I won't be coming back (a dream to many of you, I know Big grin ). And that person's family did not commit the crime, did they. They owe me or my family nothing. They're probably as much victims as my family would be. There's no reason for them to apologize.

I know, in your PC-warped mind, you're saying "WTF?" But that's your problem, not mine. I'm perfectly at peace with my position, on this apoligizing business on slavery, or any of the scenarios you brought up.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 25):
...if so then we should take all wrongs (committed and yet to be committed) and hope that we can stave off 'time' on order to escape responsibiltiy.

Oh, I forgot to mention. Those responsible? They're all dead, too. I'm not responsible. You're not responsible. No one alive in this nation is responsible for that onious practice. We've moved on as a people-why don't you join us, instead of being lost in the distant past?
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MDorBust
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:06 am



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 24):
do you want Germans to apologize for Nazi war crimes?

Well, if we are going to drag the Germans into this.. I want everyone of Italian ancestory to apologize to me for the Roman oppression of the pre-German peoples of the Black Forest region.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
BN747
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:45 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 26):
I know, in your PC-warped mind, you're saying "WTF?" But that's your problem, not mine. I'm perfectly at peace with my position, on this apoligizing business on slavery, or any of the scenarios you brought up.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 25):
...if so then we should take all wrongs (committed and yet to be committed) and hope that we can stave off 'time' on order to escape responsibiltiy.

Oh, I forgot to mention. Those responsible? They're all dead, too. I'm not responsible. You're not responsible. No one alive in this nation is responsible for that onious practice. We've moved on as a people-why don't you join us, instead of being lost in the distant past?

First off, I have no idea where you got this nonsense of asking ANYONE asking YOU to apologize.

Secondly I won't even bother to address that litany of miscues you cited as 'history...'

And thirdly, your views as of late (last year or so) have really drifted....eerily (this one particularly) into the direction of younger MD90 of 2001. Which means I cannot in good conscience keep you on my RU List (not that this 'crap means anything in the real world anyway), thus it'll go completely unnoticed. But my conscience is clear that where you're headed with thoughts about civility and humanity and right down 'crotchety ol' man- conservative style- lane. I've never cared for those types and I can not start now.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
LAXspotter
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:15 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 26):
and those who died still have loved ones alive.

wait so Muslims such as I and all the other Muslims that I know are somehow guilty for the actions of 19 men on sept. 11th? Then all 1.5 Billion should apologize.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 26):
Armenian's still around have suffered.

are you kidding me? There are probably no survivors of the Armenian genocide era. The people who demand it most are the younger generation, and trust me I know I live in the largest Armenian population city outside of Yerevan.

If America wants to have some sort of moral authority that it so desires, then it must apologize for the worst crimes in America's history. An apology would mean that European-Americans, whether they come from a long line of American citizens or whether their parents came over dirt poor from Europe in the 20th century, continue to benefit from a white privilege that allowed them to move up the ladder into the suburbs. Meanwhile, slavery's replacement, segregation, blocked generations of African-Americans from building up wealth because of redlining, intellectual capital through inferior public schools, and political capital through disenfranchisement.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
LAXspotter
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:27 am



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 29):

just to add to that here are a list of apologies to groups whose victims were not alive at the time of the apology

Tony Blair apologized on behalf of Britain for its treatment of the Irish during the potato famine of the 1840s. Pope John Paul II apologized for the past sins of the Roman Catholic Church against non-Catholics. Australia apologized for its mistreatment of the country's aborigine population.

What, then, would be the great harm in our apologizing for slavery and the Jim Crow racism that followed?

I believe an apology is in order for the evils of slavery and to the mistreatment of Native Americans.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:48 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 16):
All people are seeking from Turkey is simply an acknowledgement that the event did take place

We have had this topic on this forum quite extensively already. Turkey is NOT denying that such things ever happened, but Turkey is emphasising the assassination of two Ottoman governors by Armenians extremists and the many Turks who died in the matter, belittling the role of Enver Pasha. And "all people" seek an admittance of guilt from Turkey and not just an acknowledgment. At present, when you defend Turkey you get "assaulted" from many, and if you tell the Turks that they should "reconsider ......" they get furious.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 26):
Do want Muslims to apologize for Sept 11th and terrorist attacks?
--
Yes, because that is a current event, and those who died still have loved ones alive.

-
19 people did something, who were members of a small illegal political group which had less than 10'000 members. And for this, some billions of Muslims should apologize ? Actually, on the base of a decision by the Arab League, King Abdullah II (Jordan) went to the USA, to express the regrets of the Arab World, and apologize for what happened. And numerous other Arab leaders have done the same for their countries and themselves.
-
 
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:29 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 16):
There is a difference. Turkey claims that the massacre never happened, kinda like Ahmedinnerjacket and the Holocaust

Exactly , it happened and millions were wiped out !!! Theres a big difference between kidnap and genocide!!! Because Armenia is a poor and powerless nation they never got justice. Turkey needs to live up to its responsibilities and acknowledge its history. I do not agree with present day Turkey paying out compensation though but they need to acknowledge history!!
 
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:31 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 32):
Theres a big difference between kidnap and genocide!!!

Do you know how many people died coming across the Atlantic? They didnt exactly take a bus ride across the forest and then take a cruise ship across the Atlantic, and they didnt exactly live with their family members either.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 32):
Turkey needs to live up to its responsibilities and acknowledge its history

why should they? The present Turkish government is no way related to the government of the Ottoman Turks, none whatsoever.
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:37 am



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 33):
why should they? The present Turkish government is no way related to the government of the Ottoman Turks, none whatsoever.

They deny it happened . Thats worse IMHO . If present day Turkey deny something happened then they are responsible for telling lies . Same way that the British had to acknowledge the Amritsar massacre.
 
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:39 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 34):
They deny it happened . Thats worse IMHO

That I do not agree with, and if there is no acknowledgement its a slap on the face.
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:51 am



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 33):
Do you know how many people died coming across the Atlantic? They didnt exactly take a bus ride across the forest and then take a cruise ship across the Atlantic

Heres a link to something I think you will find interesting !!! My Great Grandfather was one of these Indians that were shipped from India to Guyana !!! So I know that it wasnt a cruise ship ......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/coolies.shtml

Their names were often changed and family ties were lost. We have traced back to my Fathers side but came to a dead end and only know that they originated from the Punjab . I do have alot of Indian-Guyanese family in Guyana and they still maintain some of the Indian culture and cook Indian food and celebrate Diwali .

I think that things should be aknowledged and not denied but present day countries cant be held responsible for their ancestors. But trying to white wash and cover up is wrong.
 
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:06 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 34):
If present day Turkey deny something happened then they are responsible for telling lies .

They have their own "version" about this. And instead of stating that such things lead to the end of the Ottoman Empire and were bad, they in the Turkish government(s) react angrily with denial over denial.
 
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:20 pm



Quoting Mdorbust (Reply 27):
Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 24):
do you want Germans to apologize for Nazi war crimes?

Well, if we are going to drag the Germans into this.. I want everyone of Italian ancestory to apologize to me for the Roman oppression of the pre-German peoples of the Black Forest region.

That is absolutely classic!

Quoting BN747 (Reply 28):
Secondly I won't even bother to address that litany of miscues you cited as 'history...'

What miscues? Please, enlighten us. If there are any, put them out here, I ask you.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 28):
And thirdly, your views as of late (last year or so) have really drifted....eerily (this one particularly) into the direction of younger MD90 of 2001. Which means I cannot in good conscience keep you on my RU List (not that this 'crap means anything in the real world anyway), thus it'll go completely unnoticed. But my conscience is clear that where you're headed with thoughts about civility and humanity and right down 'crotchety ol' man- conservative style- lane. I've never cared for those types and I can not start now.

 rotfl  You think dropping me from your RU list is going to hurt me in any way? Or change my opinions in any way, shape or form? Or that I care that you have a problem that, as I get older, and I see what's going on around me in this world, that my opinion might change? If your opinions NEVER change, be they conservative or liberal, then you're not learning anything from life, and not absorbing life's lessions. I've become more conservative on some issues, and more liberal on others, as I approach 50 years of age, BN. And I'm certainly NOT on this forum to worry about if you like my views or not.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 29):
wait so Muslims such as I and all the other Muslims that I know are somehow guilty for the actions of 19 men on sept. 11th? Then all 1.5 Billion should apologize.

I think it's appropriate for all Muslims of good will to tell the world "we are sorry that these extremists have perverted and defiled our faith, and taken our peaceful religion and have used it as a wepon of terror and death." That is it.

You see, if I or anyone else does that for slavery, it falls on deaf ears, because all those it is intended for have departed this life, and no longer exist. It isn't necessary.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 29):
are you kidding me? There are probably no survivors of the Armenian genocide era.

Fine, if that's the case, then no apology is necessary. Again, if no one who suffered is alive, and those who perpertrated the crime are all dead, what's the point? History has judged them as evil, so why is an apology for THEIR actions in that case necesssary?

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 29):
If America wants to have some sort of moral authority that it so desires, then it must apologize for the worst crimes in America's history.

Bullshit. We don't need to apologize for the sins of our forefathers, just as our children and grandchildren should not have to be made to apologize for our sins. It serves nothing ,except to continue the hatreds of people wh want to hate, and it fulfills the desire of sniviling Political Correct people and groups who want "us" to apologize for something we had no part int. Sorry, but we can do nothing about those sins, and those who were responsible, as far as I'm concerned, have already had judgement passed on them by the Almighty, so it does NOTHING constructive, and only brings back to the surface the pain of those era's, when whe should be remembering our past, but looking to the future.

When is enough enough for people like you? Why can't the fact that we've LEARNED from our history, and the terrible things that have happened, be enough for the ultra-left, political correct crowd?

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 33):
why should they? The present Turkish government is no way related to the government of the Ottoman Turks, none whatsoever.

And the same goes for the present American government and people, you hypocrite! You DEMAND we apologize for slavery, which ended over 140 years ago, but you let the Turks off the hook. How dare you! And, it shows me, once again, that you hold America to a different standard, and that you are what many of us have said you are-an unrepentant "blame America first" American.

Hypocrite!

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 35):
Quoting OA260 (Reply 34):
They deny it happened . Thats worse IMHO

That I do not agree with, and if there is no acknowledgement its a slap on the face.

It's also a slap in the face when neo-revisionists turn history on their head-World War II in the Pacific is a good case study-and try to make the victims the aggressor, and the real aggressor somehow the aggrieved. Do you deny that?

BN747 is all upset because my views have changed. Know why they have changed-in part, because I see on this board, from certain Americans, and others around the world, a lack of morality, a lack of conviction, a lack of understanding, for things that, to me, are logical. I see revisionist historians, trying to make Americans out to be the bad guy because of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, fully forgetting what led to that event; I've seen people on this board say two negative words for the U.S, for every one they can attempt to utter for Islamic extremists; I've seen people tell me on this board, and in other places, that it is I, as an American who has lived here all my life, that somehow I should change to accomodate a wave of illegal immigrants who will not come here legally, and who only are interested in taking from this nation, and who fly foreing flags over our schools and government institutions; I see people who condemn Americans for defending themselves, while at the same time, refusing to condemn those who threaten Americans and those in the West.

That has made me more conservative in many ways. But yet I still keep my views on many domestic issues, like global warming, and having a basic welfare system in place for our most needy. But I will not apologize for having changed my views, or become more conservative on many views. I will never be a neocon-far from it. But I will never be a sniveling, apoplectic, "America is the bad guy" neo-revisionist or creature of political correctness.
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:56 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 38):
dropping me from your RU list is going

you at least ought to be SCARED by such a threat !  rotfl   rotfl 
 
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:42 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 39):
you at least ought to be SCARED by such a threat !

 rotfl   rotfl  Shaking here already with fear LOL.....I dont even look at my RU list , Who cares..... Its like at school when you had your best friends who you would share your sweets with !! That changed every week LOL....
 
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:57 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 38):
BN747 is all upset because my views have changed. Know why they have changed-in part, because I see on this board, from certain Americans, and others around the world, a lack of morality, a lack of conviction, a lack of understanding, for things that, to me, are logical. I see revisionist historians, trying to make Americans out to be the bad guy because of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, fully forgetting what led to that event; I've seen people on this board say two negative words for the U.S, for every one they can attempt to utter for Islamic extremists;

BN747 is upset??? Dude, you have completely lost what's left of what once a 'deep thinking' mind... there's no way in hell I'm going get up set about what you think. This is a freakin' chat forum...16 and 17yos get bent out of shape over trivialities here...not people my age. BN747 simply sees a dramatic shift of personality in someone who appeared at one time to be quite progressive in thought.... gradually revealed as someone headed straight for the 'fear for America mentality (from which all conservatives perch) group. Your recent and increasing usage of such terms as 'the PC crowd' crap is the true calling card of such a crowd. No knock on L-188...but he is what he is, and you're well on your way to becoming a splitting image...and from what it seems....in a hurry. I recognize it's a free world and everyone is entitled to and to change their opinion (s) and views (s).


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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:04 am



Quoting BN747 (Reply 41):
BN747 simply sees a dramatic shift of personality in someone who appeared at one time to be quite progressive in thought....

Interesting how someone who claims to be progressive (i.e. liberal, respectful of diversity etc etc), cannot bring himself to respect someone he does not agree with. There are a number of people on my RU list who I never see eye to eye with, and I am a so-called intolerant conservative.  Wink
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:26 am

Quoting BN747 (Reply 41):
BN747 is upset??? Dude, you have completely lost what's left of what once a 'deep thinking' mind... there's no way in hell I'm going get up set about what you think.

Fine, you're not upset, but telling me "well, you're changing so I can't have you on my RU list anymore", doesn't impress anyone on here, especially me. I couldn't give a shit about that in any way, shape or form. If you don't like my views, and don't think I should be on your list, that's your choice. There's more than a few on here that I rarely agree with, yet have on my RU list. Respect goes beyond what one believes, to how one conducts themselves on here-and I don't have time for a baby who thinks I should apologize for something I haven't done, then gets pissy when I tell him to shove it.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 41):
BN747 simply sees a dramatic shift of personality in someone who appeared at one time to be quite progressive in thought....

I'm not progressive. i never have been. If by "progressive" you mean "gets down on hands and knees and apologizes for something that one was never involved in", or "sees the U.S. as the root of all evil", then I'm guilty as charged.

I am what I've always maintained-slightly center-left. I hold more moderately liberal views than moderately conservative views, and that puts me to the center of the spectrum, as it were. In my mind, the modern-day use for the term "progressive"-which, by the way, many in the West used to heap praises on Communism back in the day-stands for Political Correctness; it stand for those who support revisionist history, mostly as a way to paint the U.S. as the bad guy in all things. I don't subscribe to that. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 41):
gradually revealed as someone headed straight for the 'fear for America mentality (from which all conservatives perch) group.

Wrong again. I'm certainly not a paranoid of the far-right, as I think people like JetJack are. I have grave concerns abgout this nation: illegal immigration, terrorism, the economy, and the like. Just because I don't accept a multi-lingual society, or one that should just openly accept millions who come here illegally doesn't mean I'm headed in that direction. It means I think for myself, and will not simply follow a political discipline of one type or another. I'll use my brain, even though I'm not the smarterst person on the planet-but I'm intelligent enough to think on my feet, and come to my own conclusions, and not fear if what I think is in directed opposition to some straight-jacketed politcal dogma like conservatism, liberalism, or "progressive" thinking.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 42):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 41):
BN747 simply sees a dramatic shift of personality in someone who appeared at one time to be quite progressive in thought....

Interesting how someone who claims to be progressive (i.e. liberal, respectful of diversity etc etc), cannot bring himself to respect someone he does not agree with. There are a number of people on my RU list who I never see eye to eye with, and I am a so-called intolerant conservative.

And here is a good case in point, BN747. Charles and RARELY agree. I think he's drifted a lot further to the right since I first met his acquaintance on here. But I respect the hell out of him, because he uses reason and logic in his arguments; he does so usually with respect for the opposite opinion, and he THINKS. Now, who is the progressive-you or him?

It IS a free world. You're free to lay me low by taking me off your RU list. I'm free to tell you I don't give a damn. I'm also free to tell you that you view on this subject is the utmost in political correctness crap-you yourself said that it would be "the correct" thing for the U.S. to do. I reject Political Correctness, because I think i's a way of thinking that damages our nation, keeps it divided by old bitternesses and hatreds, instead of concentrating on what lies ahead of us, and is just plain bullshit. How's that for freedom of thought?

Edited to change and clean up a sentence.

[Edited 2008-01-09 17:33:52]
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:16 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 43):
Now, who is the progressive-you or him?

Hey, did you just call me a liberal?

 box   box   box 

I DEMAND an apology!  Silly
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:31 am



Quoting BN747 (Reply 41):
BN747 simply sees a dramatic shift of personality in someone who appeared at one time to be quite progressive in thought....

So you immediately decide you can no longer tolerate a person who has changing views? If you respect a person enough to have him on your BFF--I mean, RU list in the first place, then why not ask them about what it is that has made him change how they perceive things? See, people like you search for a world of harmony, peace and understanding, yet you don't seem to want to do the things that get us to that point. Painting things with a broad brush solves nothing. Family members over Christmas --including my own husband--couldn't understand why I had a certain point of view on something. Most of them dismissed me and called me "naive,"-- but my husband pushed me to explain myself. I gave a one-sentence explanation and the room fell silent. After that it was like, "Wow, I can understand why you feel that way." I even received a phone call at 8 a.m. the next day from one person apologizing for writing me off as "one of those people I can't stand."

Like he said:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 42):
Interesting how someone who claims to be progressive (i.e. liberal, respectful of diversity etc etc), cannot bring himself to respect someone he does not agree with. There are a number of people on my RU list who I never see eye to eye with, and I am a so-called intolerant conservative. Wink



Quoting BN747 (Reply 41):
gradually revealed as someone headed straight for the 'fear for America mentality (from which all conservatives perch) group.

There's that broad brush thing again.
 
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:36 am

I wonder how the people who said that they "can't be proud of something they had nothing to do with" in this thread
Are You Proud Of Your Country? (by LHStarAlliance Jan 7 2008 in Non Aviation)

would respond to this.
 
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:43 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 43):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 41):
BN747 is upset??? Dude, you have completely lost what's left of what once a 'deep thinking' mind... there's no way in hell I'm going get up set about what you think.

Fine, you're not upset, but telling me "well, you're changing so I can't have you on my RU list anymore", doesn't impress anyone on here, especially me. I couldn't give a shit about that in any way, shape or form. If you don't like my views, and don't think I should be on your list, that's your choice. There's more than a few on here that I rarely agree with, yet have on my RU list. Respect goes beyond what one believes, to how one conducts themselves on here-and I don't have time for a baby who thinks I should apologize for something I haven't done, then gets pissy when I tell him to shove it.

Well jeez, for you to drivel on and on about it two separate posts... it must mean something. Good lord dude...let it roll.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 45):
So you immediately decide you can no longer tolerate a person who has changing views?

Precisely, a young person, no problem, they'll change many times in their formative years. An older person has every right as well to change their minds BUT when one does so in a regressive/retreating direction (see my post in the 'Why are you a Conservative / Liberal Thread to clarify my meaning) vs an older person advancing from a conservative perch...I've not tolerance for that. It's like a kid on his way to Harvard..and suddenly wants hunting ducks spend all his time sharpening knives instead. But hey...he's entitled.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 45):
--I mean, RU list in the first place, then why not ask them about what it is that has made him change how they perceive things?

Reading a persons posts over time shows the change. I've seen quite a few young people have 'near' neo-nazi viewpoints here..gradually grow and realize the worlds not as simplistic (us against them) as they thought. They don't become full-fledged liberals...but they do go from being young Cfalks to 'thinking for themselves). If they go lifes full circle and come back to their earlier stance...then what good was it? You're back to when you didn't know anything.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 45):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 41):
gradually revealed as someone headed straight for the 'fear for America mentality (from which all conservatives perch) group.

There's that broad brush thing again.

No...that particular brush is reserved for a specific breed.


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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:49 am



Quoting BN747 (Reply 47):
...but they do go from being young Cfalks

 scared   scared   scared 

I pray that there arent too many of them
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
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RE: New Jersey Apologizes For Slavery.. So What?

Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:48 pm



Quoting BN747 (Reply 47):
I've not tolerance for that.

Then you're an abject hypocrite. You claim to be progressive-which means ,in part, being tolerant of others in views, culture, etc. But you're obviously not. You cannot tolerate the fact that someone changes some of their thinking to a more conservative view. Guess what? MOST PEOPLE, when they get older, get at least a bit more conservative. It may abhore you, but you probably will, too. I will never be a necon or ultra conservative, but it's a natural progression as you get older, for most people, to modify your views.

The way it sounds, you make it seem that people, once they get to a certain age, should just be locked into a way of thinking. The world doesn't work that way; the human mind doesn't work that way. If we're politically and socially aware of what's around us, views NEVER stop changing for most people, unless you're an extremist.

9/11 Changed my views on some things; the flood of illegal immigration has changed my views on some things; the rise of political correctness has changed my views on some things, yet strengthen already-held views on others. Same goes for revisionist historians and revisionist thinking.

The human mind doesn't get to a certain age, then stop processiong the world around it. The mind, and one's heart and soul are always evaluating the world, and it's surroundings. So, to say that it's unacceptable or that you can't tolerate that tells me one thing: you're an extremist on the ultra-left, who is lying to himself and the world when he says he is tolerant of others. You are only so who can't think for themselves, are beholden to a hard and fast political dogma, and who think like you do.
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