RJdxer
Topic Author
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Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:11 am

Marking the continued turn around since the surge began, the military is saying they could be ready to turn over Anbar province, once considered lost, as early as March or April. It's good to see that Iraqis are finally able to solve their security issues and let's hope that other provinces aren't too far away from the same.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080111/ts_nm/iraq_anbar_dc_2
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jetblueguy22
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:29 am

I heard they were handing it over next week. Shows how much I know!
Blue
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
RJdxer
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:49 pm

Gosh I wonder where all the naysayers are. They just hate good news.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:33 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 2):
Gosh I wonder where all the naysayers are. They just hate good news.

Amen to that. I love how the press just talks about this for like 30 seconds and then when there is a small IED detonation with no injuries they talk about it longer than this good news. Darn press.
Blue
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
zotan
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:37 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Thread starter):
Gosh I wonder where all the naysayers are. They just hate good news.

I'm glad to here things are turning around, but the national government is still as bad as ever.

Even If we are eventually able to completely pull out, what did we accomplish? The loss of thousands of US troops, most likely more than one trillion dollars, the death of 150,000+ Iraqis, and a world that despises us?
 
RJdxer
Topic Author
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:47 pm



Quoting ZOTAN (Reply 4):
I'm glad to here things are turning around, but the national government is still as bad as ever.

They have the same problems our government has, neither side can agree on anything.

Quoting ZOTAN (Reply 4):
what did we accomplish?

How many are being raped and tortured at the hands of their own government? Do they now live with hope or continued fear of what their neighbor may say. Ask a soldier whose been there, and re-enlisted knowing they would probably be sent back. They know.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:24 am



Quoting ZOTAN (Reply 4):
Even If we are eventually able to completely pull out, what did we accomplish? The loss of thousands of US troops, most likely more than one trillion dollars, the death of 150,000+ Iraqis, and a world that despises us?

We accomplished freedom for millions of people that were being hurt and tortured by the regime of Saddam Hussein. We eliminated a threat that had the capabilities to create a Nuclear weapon some years down the road. The troops died for freedom. When you take that oath to become a soldier you say that you will protect freedoms and that is what they were doing for the people of Iraq. One trillion in aid to a country that needs it bad yeah we really look like idiots don't we. And a world that despises us. Man I love that sentence because lets see here we weren't liked a ton of a lot before the entry into Iraq and we didn't just go in. We had approval by the United Nations a group that has most of the world's countries in it approved by a majority vote. Also we had approval from the Senate and House of Representatives agreed by both sides. Yeah we really did nothing to help anyone. I know soldiers and they were proud of what they did for those people what they didn't like was listening to folks at home complaining about the progress after all the hard work they did.
Blue
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:50 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 5):
now live with hope or continued fear of what their neighbor may say

LOL, ROTFL

yep, Baghdad is sure swell to live in

Provided that the surge has worked to quell the violence, it is not walk in the park. The fact of the matter is violence is still a reality, violence is still rampant and working and living conditions are poor. The divide between Sunni and Shiite is greater than ever before and any hopes of Political progress on behalf of the Iraqi government is wishful thinking.

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 6):
We accomplished freedom for millions of people that were being hurt and tortured by the regime of Saddam Hussein. We eliminated a threat that had the capabilities to create a Nuclear weapon some years down the road

Freedom, lol from what a tyrannical secular governement to a future of secretarian violence that is ever so present. The future holds more violence for Iraqis, its quite easy for you to say that 150,000 deaths of Iraqis were in the name of freedom. A future that is less than prosperous for millions of Iraqis struggling to get by, a shortage of electricty and supplies. The fact of the matter is if Iraq was so great to live in, why the hell then did a Million people leave Iraq out of a population of about 21 Million People.

The government's plan and the GOP plan for the war is until the government of Iraq acheives anything we will be there for a prolonged period of time, the surge was there to quell the violence and to ACHIEVE POLITICAL GAINS which has not happened and the GOP party vows that it will stay there until that happens, which could take forever.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
IADCA
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:10 am



Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 6):
We accomplished freedom for millions of people that were being hurt and tortured by the regime of Saddam Hussein.

"I guess they'd rather be alive than free...poor dumb bastards" -Full Metal Jacket

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 6):
We eliminated a threat that had the capabilities to create a Nuclear weapon some years down the road.

No, we just moved that threat (the materials and scientific knowledge, if they were there) somewhere else.

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 6):
When you take that oath to become a soldier you say that you will protect freedoms and that is what they were doing for the people of Iraq.

I'm glad that you, at age 13-15, are so wise in the ways of soldiers. All my friends who have been over there have been fighting for the US, not the Iraqis. I'll reserve going further as I'm not in the military and wouldn't dare speak for the men and women who put their asses on the line for our country.

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 6):
One trillion in aid to a country that needs it bad yeah we really look like idiots don't we.

Yeah, we do. People had it very hard in Iraq before the war, but they weren't starving or dying of curable diseases in waves in addition to being killed by their own people. By contrast, US aid to the entirety of sub-Saharan Africa (where all those problems are widespread) has averaged between 3 and 4 billion a year in the Bush years, which was actually a big bump over prior spending. So, let's see, the neediest people get 15-20 billion total over the time we've been in Iraq, and less needy people get more than 50 times that, a good deal of which is spend fixing stuff we broke. Hate to say it, that looks pretty damn stupid.

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 6):
And a world that despises us. Man I love that sentence because lets see here we weren't liked a ton of a lot before the entry into Iraq and we didn't just go in.

Um, there's a large difference between "not liked a ton" and "despise." If you'd like to talk to people at State and tell them that this war hasn't severely negatively impacted our credibility and relationships abroad, go ahead. They'll piss themselves laughing at you. And damn, you're 13-15. That would logically mean that there's pretty much no way you had any meaningful appreciation of our international relationships prior to to the Iraq war, since at an absolute max you were 10 years old then.

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 6):
We had approval by the United Nations a group that has most of the world's countries in it approved by a majority vote.

Uh, yeah, but you need more than a majority on the Security Council. That's like saying that because 35 US States ratified the Equal Rights Amendment, it should be part of the Constitution even though you need 3/4 for success.

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 6):
Also we had approval from the Senate and House of Representatives agreed by both sides.

Yeah, and the House has no Constitutional role in declaring a war, which we didn't do anyway. We just Gulf of Tonkin-ed it, and Congress spinelessly passing the buck has resulted in a legal and control sinkhole of the first order.

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 6):
I know soldiers and they were proud of what they did for those people what they didn't like was listening to folks at home complaining about the progress after all the hard work they did.

And I know guys who came home and said they felt like we were wasting our time. Different soldiers had different experiences. The whole operation has been a mix of successes and failures.

The take-away point of this whole mess is that while I don't think we should have been there in the first place, once we went in deep, it's damn good we finally seem to be getting something done. I'm cautiously optimistic about Anbar, but only cautiously so given what seems to be a mixed bag after the handover in Basra. The problem with this all is that we'll never really know; most of our soldiers only see small sections of the country with much detail and therefore can't speak to the general picture, and what the media gives is mostly second-hand. This is particularly true in places back under Iraqi control. There's no way we'll ever get the full picture of those places, so it's just guess and hope. We lost a lot of people fighting in Anbar, so I sure hope the Iraqis take it seriously. Unfortunately, I just don't have a damn wit of confidence in that country being able to hold together. Our soldiers are the best in the world and they've done a hell of a job, but they can't make chicken salad without any chicken. This war got messed up because the politicians f'ed up, not the soldiers. Now the ball is in the court of the politicians again after the soldiers have yet again done their job. Let's see where it rolls now.
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:14 am



Quoting IADCA (Reply 8):

I remember on National Geographic, there was an iraqi videographer who showed us glimpses of life in Baghdad, we need more things like that. Imagine if such an invasion took place in a more technologically advanced country, we'd be able to rely on blogs, pictures and videos from the Iraqi perspective, welcome to my RU.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:53 pm



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 7):
Freedom, lol from what a tyrannical secular governement to a future of secretarian violence that is ever so present. The future holds more violence for Iraqis, its quite easy for you to say that 150,000 deaths of Iraqis were in the name of freedom. A future that is less than prosperous for millions of Iraqis struggling to get by, a shortage of electricty and supplies. The fact of the matter is if Iraq was so great to live in, why the hell then did a Million people leave Iraq out of a population of about 21 Million People.

Of course the future is going to be violent! When the United States became a nation it was not like we just said we want to be free British and it was peaceful! Of course not all the deaths were in the name of freedom but I bet to you that the Iraqis are a hell of a lot happier now. A million people left Iraq because they now could! They didn't have to worry about being sent back to Iraq and tortured.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 8):
No, we just moved that threat (the materials and scientific knowledge, if they were there) somewhere else.

Where did we send them? Please tell me where because since you seem to know. The government would love that intel.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 8):
I'm glad that you, at age 13-15, are so wise in the ways of soldiers. All my friends who have been over there have been fighting for the US, not the Iraqis. I'll reserve going further as I'm not in the military and wouldn't dare speak for the men and women who put their asses on the line for our country.

I didn't speak for anyone. I spoke for the soldiers I know not the 150,000 in Iraq and who have been in Iraq.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 8):
And damn, you're 13-15. That would logically mean that there's pretty much no way you had any meaningful appreciation of our international relationships prior to to the Iraq war, since at an absolute max you were 10 years old then.

Ok so just because of my age I can have no appreciation for our relations! What the hell does that mean? I see what goes on in the world I read about what has happened since the Reagan administration which in fact was a high for our government. Since he left office the relations with foreign nations has declined and will continue to decline if we don't stop loving ourselves so much and start acting as a people who share a world and who care about others besides themselves.
Blue
P.S. Age has nothing to do with anything. People are certain ages but that doesn't mean they don't know what they are talking about.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:03 pm

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 10):
P.S. Age has nothing to do with anything. People are certain ages but that doesn't mean they don't know what they are talking about.

A teenager speaks. Read everything, knows everything, but has no real life experience. Never mind, when I was your age I was just like you, a know it all. It only took me 20 years to realise what I don't know.

Jan

[Edited 2008-01-13 10:04:51]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
AirCop
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:24 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Thread starter):
the military is saying they could be ready to turn over Anbar province, once considered lost, as early as March or April

Then again it might not happen. What happens when Iraq and it provinces split along tribal groups like another country that we are currently involved in? Chaos! What did the mainstream media report, the Iraq government has achieved none of the benchmarks set out by the Bush Administration. At this point, I have zero faith in the Iraq government.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:34 pm

What apparently happened in Iraq over the last year is that the Sunnis realised that the foreign Islamists of Al Qaeda were not fighting for the Iraqi Sunnis but for their own goals and just using the Iraqi population for their own ends. With this realisation did the support, which the Islamists previously received, suddenly vanish. People were suddenly willing to report Al Qaeda activities to the authorities.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
RJdxer
Topic Author
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:50 pm



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 7):
Provided that the surge has worked to quell the violence, it is not walk in the park. The fact of the matter is violence is still a reality, violence is still rampant and working and living conditions are poor.

Take a walk in more than a couple of areas in DCA, DTW, or even LAX. You're chances of getting robbed, shot, killed or all three are just as high.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 7):
The divide between Sunni and Shiite is greater than ever before and any hopes of Political progress on behalf of the Iraqi government is wishful thinking.

And your source for this is?

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 7):
The government's plan and the GOP plan for the war is until the government of Iraq acheives anything we will be there for a prolonged period of time

Considering that virtually everyone is surprised at the turn around that statement is becoming more and more untrue every day.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 7):
the surge was there to quell the violence and to ACHIEVE POLITICAL GAINS which has not happened and the GOP party vows that it will stay there until that happens, which could take forever.

The surge was there to help allow for a security situation to help the Iraqi parliment achieve unity. It's happening at the local and regional level. But just like our government, the national leaders have a power sharing problem. That does not take away from the fact that a province considered lost just a year and half ago is now ready for transfer of control. As I stated, naysayers like you hate good news.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 12):
Then again it might not happen.

Unless Al Queda can mount some serious attacks between now and then I don't see why not.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 12):
What happens when Iraq and it provinces split along tribal groups like another country that we are currently involved in?

Such as?

Quoting AirCop (Reply 12):
What did the mainstream media report, the Iraq government has achieved none of the benchmarks set out by the Bush Administration.

I'm glad you're basing your decisions on what the mainstream media is reporting versus what is actually happening on the ground. BTW, how many benchmarks did the democrats in Congress achieve in 2007?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
connies4ever
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:16 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Thread starter):
Marking the continued turn around since the surge began, the military is saying they could be ready to turn over Anbar province, once considered lost, as early as March or April. It's good to see that Iraqis are finally able to solve their security issues and let's hope that other provinces aren't too far away from the same.



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 2):
Gosh I wonder where all the naysayers are. They just hate good news.

al-Anbar is becoming more 'stable' because Uncle Sam is paying Saddam's guys to perform the security tasks. And to hunt the alleged al-Qaeda in Iraq people. Makes one wonder why there was a war in the first place if Saddam's people were still going to be in charge (at least in al-Anbar).
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
IADCA
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:02 pm



Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 10):
Where did we send them? Please tell me where because since you seem to know. The government would love that intel.

Many of the scientists went to Syria, and some to Iran. The rest were captured, most likely. The government already knows this. The materials, if they were ever there in the first place, clearly went somewhere else, since we never found any of them. That's rather simple to comprehend.

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 10):
Ok so just because of my age I can have no appreciation for our relations! What the hell does that mean? I see what goes on in the world I read about what has happened since the Reagan administration which in fact was a high for our government.

Yeah, pretty much it does mean that. There's a reason older people think teenagers see the world in terms too black and white, simplistic, etc. That reason is that they do. We've all been there, we all thought we were the smartest, best-looking, and generally the biggest swingin' dick on the planet, and then most of us except a select few arrogant pricks opened our eyes at about the age of 22.

What's written in any particular book (or even a fairly large collection) is never the full truth, and given your rhetoric, it appears you're only reading one side of the debate anyway. Before you want to comment on diplomatic history, at least take a decent college course or three in the area. International relations is one of the most difficult academic disciplines to handle (along with history) because it is virtually impossible to come up with any meaningful rubrics for comparison. You can read any number of books on a subject and it will never be like living through an era. While I'm not going to bother to talk about where the high point in our foreign relations credibility was, suffice it to say that Bush has done more to damage it than perhaps any in history. I'm not claiming he's doing any of this deliberately; he's a well-meaning guy who was trying to do the right thing. It's just that the shit totally hit the fan.

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 10):
will continue to decline if we don't stop loving ourselves so much and start acting as a people who share a world and who care about others besides themselves.

If this is your view, why the hell are you spouting a right-wing agenda? There's a bit of a logical gap there.
 
Alessandro
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:40 pm

Iraqi ABC capabilities was gone after the first Kuwait war.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:45 pm

James... Are you part of the 18% (or so) that actually approves of whatever Bush does?
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
EvilForce
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:15 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Thread starter):
Marking the continued turn around since the surge began, the military is saying they could be ready to turn over Anbar province, once considered lost, as early as March or April. It's good to see that Iraqis are finally able to solve their security issues and let's hope that other provinces aren't too far away from the same.

Excellent news! We can pull 100,000 troops out then in the next 90 days right? I'm sure the soldiers and their families will be very happy knowing their loved ones are on their way home next month.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
skyservice_330
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:32 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 14):
Take a walk in more than a couple of areas in DCA, DTW, or even LAX. You're chances of getting robbed, shot, killed or all three are just as high.

Is there anyway to pull up the violent crime stats or random crime stats for the four cities- DCA,DTW, LAX and Baghdad- and do some sort of comparison to see which is the safest or where one has the highest chance of being involved in violent crime?
 
AirCop
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:00 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 14):
What happens when Iraq and it provinces split along tribal groups like another country that we are currently involved in?

Such as?

How about Afghanistan for one?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 14):
Unless Al Queda can mount some serious attacks between now and then I don't see why not.

Since when did you become an expert in what is happening in Iraq? From what I hear from family members on the ground in Iraq its not quite as rosy of a picture.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 14):
BTW, how many benchmarks did the democrats in Congress achieve in 2007?

The question should be how many benchmarks did the President vetoed.
 
RJdxer
Topic Author
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:15 am



Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 15):
al-Anbar is becoming more 'stable' because Uncle Sam is paying Saddam's guys to perform the security tasks. And to hunt the alleged al-Qaeda in Iraq people. Makes one wonder why there was a war in the first place if Saddam's people were still going to be in charge (at least in al-Anbar).

Funny how that worked out in post war Germany.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 18):
James... Are you part of the 18% (or so) that actually approves of whatever Bush does?

Nope, I don't care for his spending policies.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 19):
We can pull 100,000 troops out then in the next 90 days right?

It would be nice but unfortunately only 9 provinces have been deemed ready for turnover.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 21):
How about Afghanistan for one?

Tribal splits do not automatically mean chaos. Unless of course you consider the Taliban to be a tribe.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 21):
Since when did you become an expert in what is happening in Iraq?

I have never claimed to be one. News that a formerly violent province is now pacified enough to be deemed ready for turnover to the Iraqis should be greeted as good news. But as you and several others have taken great pains to show, good news out of Iraq is bad news for some in this country.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 21):
The question should be how many benchmarks did the President vetoed.

Those damn checks and balances get in the way again.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:35 am



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 11):
A teenager speaks. Read everything, knows everything, but has no real life experience. Never mind, when I was your age I was just like you, a know it all. It only took me 20 years to realise what I don't know.

Jan

I don't know everything. Of course I have no real life experience but that doesn't mean I can't apprehend what is going on in the world.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 16):
Yeah, pretty much it does mean that. There's a reason older people think teenagers see the world in terms too black and white, simplistic, etc. That reason is that they do. We've all been there, we all thought we were the smartest, best-looking, and generally the biggest swingin' dick on the planet, and then most of us except a select few arrogant pricks opened our eyes at about the age of 22.

I don't think you understand that times have changed and I guarantee you that if you stepped in a high school in my district you would be amazed at what we know is going on in the world today. We talk more about politics than we do about sports! I don't think I'm a big shot because I'm not. I am low in the chain right know but it doesn't mean I can't put my two cents in if I want to. And maybe I opened my eyes before 22.
Blue
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:41 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 14):
DCA, DTW, or even LAX. You're chances of getting robbed, shot, killed or all three are just as high.

LOL ROTFL, yep I wouldnt midn taking a walk down the Al-sadr neighborhood of Baghdad or Fallujah at night  Yeah sure . I would be very comfortable in Adhamiya. Just how many Iraqis are coming back to Iraq? Most Iraqis are happy that Saddam is gone, but to think that they have some kind of "freedom" is erroneous, People are not walking out their homes and taking a deep breath in the morning to take in "Freedom", they're scared for their lives whenever they go out in public. Religious extremism has engulfed the country, liqiour stores are targeted, women's salons are targeted and violence is right around the corner, to think life in Baghad in anyway comporable to even the worst conditions in the "meanest" streets in America is unthinkable.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
IADCA
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:23 am



Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 23):
I don't think you understand that times have changed and I guarantee you that if you stepped in a high school in my district you would be amazed at what we know is going on in the world today. We talk more about politics than we do about sports! I don't think I'm a big shot because I'm not. I am low in the chain right know but it doesn't mean I can't put my two cents in if I want to. And maybe I opened my eyes before 22.

I went to what US News ranked as the #1 high school in the country. I know what smart high school students look and sound like. I also know what arrogant ones sound like; trust me, I was there. I was president of one of the political organizations at my school, and we talked a lot about politics. We thought we knew everything about everything. We didn't. I know how high school kids get arrogant about their knowledge, and I also know about their lack of understanding of context. I don't want to discourage you from putting in your two cents; developing the ability to articulate opinions is important and you do it well. But also remember that there are two sides to every story, and the trouble with the way most young people see politics is that they don't see the layers. It takes a while to develop that, and it seemed from your first post that you're just not there yet. I know you may think you're unusually mature (and you may be), but there is a point at which emotional maturity just fails to substitute for sheer experience in life.
 
RJdxer
Topic Author
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:11 am



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 24):
are not walking out their homes and taking a deep breath in the morning to take in "Freedom", they're scared for their lives whenever they go out in public.

Sure they are. What are these people up to then?
http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slides...p/7bd13d9edb058517cff423407c3d3341
But go ahead and keep up the naysaying if it makes you happy. BTW, what was the murder count in LA county last year? Something like 327? Or how about D.C. and environs?

http://www.burgersub.org/murders2k7.htm

Or Detroit with 396.


http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...icle?AID=/20080108/METRO/801080366
Despite the decline, Detroit still has one of the highest murder rates in the country and was recently identified as one of the most dangerous cities in the country. Police reported 396 murders in 2007, down slightly from 418 in 2006.

Detroit resident Anthony Brunson, 68, said he feels there is still too much violence. He is cautious when he travels in the city.

"Sometimes you have to look over your shoulder," he said.

"It depends on where you go and who you hang with. Of course, in certain areas you have to be careful. That's not just in Detroit, but in Boston, Chicago -- anywhere."


Take a drive around the inner city of Detroit and tell me that all that vacant land is idle for a reason. Same in Cleveland. Baghdad is a big city and just like here, crime happens.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 2541
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:39 pm



Quoting IADCA (Reply 25):
I went to what US News ranked as the #1 high school in the country. I know what smart high school students look and sound like. I also know what arrogant ones sound like; trust me, I was there. I was president of one of the political organizations at my school, and we talked a lot about politics. We thought we knew everything about everything. We didn't. I know how high school kids get arrogant about their knowledge, and I also know about their lack of understanding of context. I don't want to discourage you from putting in your two cents; developing the ability to articulate opinions is important and you do it well. But also remember that there are two sides to every story, and the trouble with the way most young people see politics is that they don't see the layers. It takes a while to develop that, and it seemed from your first post that you're just not there yet. I know you may think you're unusually mature (and you may be), but there is a point at which emotional maturity just fails to substitute for sheer experience in life.

I know we don't go in depth into politics but we do talk about what we do know. And I don't want to sound arrogant but I just put in what I believed was true and if it wasn't I guess that was just my opinion.
Blue
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
EvilForce
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:27 pm

It never ceases to amaze me what people will convince themselves of. How out of touch do you have to be to think that the murder rate in Iraq is below that here in America? Good grief.

According to the Brooking Institute and other non-partisan organizations the murder rate for Dec. last month (which was one of the least violent months in a long time) was 650 for the month. (Source: http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2007/1222_iraq_ohanlon.aspx )

In Sept. 2007 it was almost 2,500, (Source: http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2007/0904iraq_campbell.aspx ) and according to the June report 2,750. (Source: http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2007/0610iraq_campbell.aspx )

Yes that is for the whole country. Iraq has somewhere around 26M people. The state of Texas has not quite 24M people. In 2006 the state of Texas had 1,384 murders. (Source: http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/txcrime.htm )

But let's just say that 650 is the new benchmark and ignore the other months of significantly higher murder rates. At 650 per month that's on pace for 7,800 per year. ** Keep in mind these are civilian deaths only. Military deaths would be in addition to these figures.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
EvilForce
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:37 pm



Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 10):
A million people left Iraq because they now could! They didn't have to worry about being sent back to Iraq and tortured.

Actually most experts agree that 2,000,000 Iraqis have left the country. Iraqis were free to leave their country before the war. We aren't talking about East Germany in 1975. Of that 2M that left are the scientists, teachers, doctors, lawyers, accountants, and other professionals needed in any stable country. Basically anyone with the ability to leave to make a life for themselves elsewhere, did. This "brain drain" was much like the displacement that took place around the early 1940s of professionals fleeing Germany. People who could get out, did.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:43 pm



Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 15):
al-Anbar is becoming more 'stable' because Uncle Sam is paying Saddam's guys to perform the security tasks. And to hunt the alleged al-Qaeda in Iraq people. Makes one wonder why there was a war in the first place if Saddam's people were still going to be in charge (at least in al-Anbar).

It only shows that apparently the majority of the Iraqi population like to have the secular and moderately socialist Baath party in charge, but without the mafia-like Al Tikriti clan of Saddam Hussein.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
baroque
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:20 pm



Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 6):
One trillion in aid to a country that needs it bad yeah we really look like idiots don't we.

Interesting how easily the total cost of the war turns into aid. Actual aid 2003 to 2006 was 3.8b, 7.6b, 6.2b 4.4b. Not a great deal. And to add up to a trillion dollars even at 7.6b would take 131 years, now that IS a long time for the recovery.
Anyway, nice to know that health costs of returning US servicemen count as aid to Iraq.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 8):
Now the ball is in the court of the politicians again after the soldiers have yet again done their job. Let's see where it rolls now.

Excellent posts IADCA.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 22):
Quoting AirCop (Reply 21):
The question should be how many benchmarks did the President vetoed.

Those damn checks and balances get in the way again.

But where were they when you really needed them back in 2002?

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 24):
Religious extremism has engulfed the country, liquor stores are targeted, women's salons are targeted and violence is right around the corner, to think life in Baghdad in anyway comparable to even the worst conditions in the "meanest" streets in America is unthinkable.



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 28):
It never ceases to amaze me what people will convince themselves of. How out of touch do you have to be to think that the murder rate in Iraq is below that here in America? Good grief.

Nice tries LAXs and EvilF but you need to move over to the new reality. Iraq is calm, order has been restored. All is well. Freedom is has been delivered. Just a few more deft touches and democracy will be fine.  sarcastic   sarcastic 

Don't for a moment look at the possibility that the real fight between Sunnis and Shia is yet to come. That is part of a reality that just simply will NOT be.  sarcastic   sarcastic 

In the real world, the estimates are that the measures to cancel the anti-Baath moves are not only too little and too late, they could now be positively counterproductive as some Sunnis that are currently employed could get kicked out. Not sure how that will work, but those suggesting it seem to know.

If crime rates in the US really are near those in Iraq, maybe the US should have stayed home and fixed them instead of stirring up trouble in Iraq!

And the fight to own the oil has not yet even started.

The floods of returning refugees are truly remarkable - not, AFAIK.
 
Arrow
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:55 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 31):
Interesting how easily the total cost of the war turns into aid. Actual aid 2003 to 2006 was 3.8b, 7.6b, 6.2b 4.4b. Not a great deal. And to add up to a trillion dollars even at 7.6b would take 131 years, now that IS a long time for the recovery.

Interesting, too, that the war proponents conveniently forget the impact of all that "aid" money on the still-growing national debt. With the US now looking like it's in, or soon to be in, a recession those chickens are going to come home to roost big-time.

I see in today's NYT that consumer spending has taken a nose dive.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/14/bu...66d&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

"Strong evidence is emerging that consumer spending, a bulwark against recession over the last year even as energy prices surged and the housing market sputtered, has begun to slow sharply at every level of the American economy, from the working class to the wealthy.

The abrupt pullback raises the possibility that the country may be experiencing a rare decline in personal consumption, not just a slower rate of growth. Such a decline would be the first since 1991, and it would almost certainly push the entire economy into a recession in the middle of an election year."


Kinda makes you wonder if the Iraq adventure will come to an end a lot more quickly than even the opponents hope for simply because to continue pouring more resources into the sink hole will knock the country down for the count. All that surge-related "good news" will be forgotten as the troops get yanked out in a hurry and Iraq spirals down into civil war again.

And then Bush's legacy will really begin to take hold.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
RJdxer
Topic Author
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:55 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 28):
How out of touch do you have to be to think that the murder rate in Iraq is below that here in America?

No one here has said that. But LAX, as the pictures bely, would have us believe that to step outside in Iraq is an instant death and that the people live in a constant fear of that. There are people who live in the same kind of fear that Iraqis do here in the United States.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 31):
Iraq is calm, order has been restored. All is well. Freedom is has been delivered. Just a few more deft touches and democracy will be fine

Not yet. But it's getting there.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 31):
Don't for a moment look at the possibility that the real fight between Sunnis and Shia is yet to come. That is part of a reality that just simply will NOT be.

Go ahead and keep up the naysaying. It's getting harder and harder to do, and you have to nitpick more and more but I give you credit for putting in the effort.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:20 pm



Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 6):
freedom for millions of people

-
and millions of women, many of them highly emancipated, who enjoyed equality and freedom between 1920 and 2003, who could get around without scarves and without veils, who could go to schools and university, who could do business, who could go on their own to restaurants, they all now, under the USA-supported fundamentalist government have lost all their freedom and were pushed back into medieval circumstances.
-
Millions of people who could lead a normal and secularist life, enjoy beer and wine and spirits, are now all curtailed by the rules of the theocracy.
-
As soon as the US occupation forces will be out, one of the military commanders will take power and send the clerics back to the Mosques
 
EvilForce
Posts: 974
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:12 am

RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:47 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 33):
No one here has said that. But LAX, as the pictures bely, would have us believe that to step outside in Iraq is an instant death and that the people live in a constant fear of that. There are people who live in the same kind of fear that Iraqis do here in the United States.

Well I wouldn't be so bold as to say what the average Iraqi thinks on a given day. I haven't been there, haven't talked to them personally, so I really don't know. It's still a violent place to be regardless. I had friends that lived in Lebanon during the unrest there. My friends dad was a doctor and went back and forth between the states and Lebanon. Even in the middle of war life goes on for most. They figure out a way to eat, drink, work, etc. It's the human will to survive.

I think what most "naysayers" take issue with, is what's really changed? Obviously if we added 30,000+ cops in Texas crime and violence would go down, likewise the addl. troops have driven violence down somewhat as well. What happens when those 30,000 extra troops have to be brought home? And regardless who is Prez, the surge is ending either way since we simply do not have the troops to replace them or maintain them there. The prime reason they went there was to allow the political process to work and give them breathing space. Nothing there has changed.

What I do find informative, is that I was a big proponent of adding far more troops over there early on. I didn't think we should go at all, and said as much. But if we were going to go, do it old school. Put 1/3 million boots on the ground. Yet for how many years were we told that extra troops weren't going to help at all? Now, a few years later extra troops are actually working? Imagine that. Just think what Iraq could have been had we fought the war according to the Powell doctrine of overwhelming force.

One month (DEC) in the bloodiest year to date does not a war make. You can't get upset at people for not believing this admin's "facts" or figures. The current admin has lied, twisted, and manipulated data repeatedly over the past 7 years. Most of us are in a wait and see mode before deciding we are really doing much. Frankly given the track record many of us are somewhat skeptical.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
Arrow
Posts: 2325
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:32 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 33):
Go ahead and keep up the naysaying. It's getting harder and harder to do, and you have to nitpick more and more but I give you credit for putting in the effort.

There's nothing difficult about it at all, you hardly have to break a mental sweat. Blinkered thinking got the US into this war in the first place, blinkered thinking screwed up the so-called nation building process, and blinkered thinking will ultimately lead to a catastrophic withdrawal (which unfortunately is inevitable).

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 35):
I think what most "naysayers" take issue with, is what's really changed?

Bingo. Good post. As ill-considered and poorly executed as the adventure was, there would be some measure of relief among "naysayers" if there were some evidence that Iraq was a better place in the wake of Saddam's demise. Unfortunately it isn't, and only the presence of a huge police force in the form of US troops keeps the place from exploding entirely -- which is what will happen when those guys are pulled out.

One day, Iraq may be a stable place -- either as a united state, or, more likely, as three quasi-independent enclaves. But it won't likely be democratic.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
RJdxer
Topic Author
Posts: 3523
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:27 am



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 35):
Well I wouldn't be so bold as to say what the average Iraqi thinks on a given day.

Neither would I. That is why I posted the story with pictures.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 35):
What happens when those 30,000 extra troops have to be brought home?

Read the story, who is taking over in the province.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 35):
Nothing there has changed.

Again, you have to read the entire story, the answer is there but you don't want to see it.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 35):
Just think what Iraq could have been had we fought the war according to the Powell doctrine of overwhelming force.

The war against Saddam was over in short order. You go on to say that we can't maintain the troop level we have over there now, which only came into being last summer. How were we going to maintain it for 5 years? The war against Saddam and his troops was a stunning success. Groups from outside the country have complicated the peace. As has been shown, when the locals band together, as they have in Anbar province, they can force foreign fighters out and the area becomes pacified.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 35):
can't get upset at people for not believing this admin's "facts" or figures.

I'm not upset, but it is humorous to see how some refuse to believe that there can be any kind of good outcome as if the Iraqi people want to live in a constant state of war and fear.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 35):
The current admin has lied, twisted, and manipulated data repeatedly over the past 7 years

And the administrations detractors have told even bigger lies, more insanely twisted, and provided false data over the past 5 years.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 35):
Most of us are in a wait and see mode before deciding we are really doing much. Frankly given the track record many of us are somewhat skeptical.

Most of the detractors will do anything to have to avoid saying anything good about Iraq.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 36):
and blinkered thinking will ultimately lead to a catastrophic withdrawal (which unfortunately is inevitable).

Considering we have turned over 9 of 18 provinces already, the only way we will have a catastrophic withdrawl is if it is initiated in error by the next administration.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 36):
One day, Iraq may be a stable place -- either as a united state, or, more likely, as three quasi-independent enclaves. But it won't likely be democratic.

Yep, those Iraqis are just too stupid to be able to figure out how democracy works. Shame you have such a narrow mind.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
EvilForce
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:42 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 37):
Considering we have turned over 9 of 18 provinces already, the only way we will have a catastrophic withdrawl is if it is initiated in error by the next administration.

But if we've now handed over 1/2 the provinces back to the Iraqis, and murder rates are akin to Detroit or Los Angeles now, shouldn't we be able to bring 30,000 to 50,000 troops home now? If not, why not?
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
baroque
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:18 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 37):
The war against Saddam was over in short order. You go on to say that we can't maintain the troop level we have over there now, which only came into being last summer. How were we going to maintain it for 5 years? The war against Saddam and his troops was a stunning success. Groups from outside the country have complicated the peace.

Do you really believe a few outside infiltrators could have accelerated that mayhem for years - it was the remnants of the army that was more bypassed than defeated and then irritated by being dissolved and send home. That unleashed literally an army of trained military folk who were by then distinctly pissed off with the US.

An outcome of the Bremer fiats. I think he must have got the fatwah craze.

It is not whether or not Iraqis are stupid or unable to appreciate having a vote, it is just that the US without a thought for the consequences, let the process loose with on one side:
Majority Shia who were going to "win" any election that was halfway fair, but who were also internally divided; and on another side
Minority Sunni, who had been the majority in the army and had now been kicked out of power and out of their jobs (both army and civil) AND who knew where the arms stockpiles were that the US failed to guard;
leaving the other large minority, the Kurds busy with their own thing (which in part has included irritating Turkey).

Saddam was removed from power in short order, but if you think his power base was removed in that short order, well, that is part of the thinking that got you into this mess. And don't say you were not told, you were. Now you are being told again. The fat lady is a long way from singing.
 
Mir
Posts: 19108
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:42 am



Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 10):
Of course not all the deaths were in the name of freedom but I bet to you that the Iraqis are a hell of a lot happier now. A million people left Iraq because they now could!

So happy with the new Iraq that they immediately...left it?

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 10):
and will continue to decline if we don't stop loving ourselves so much and start acting as a people who share a world and who care about others besides themselves.

I agree. But waging war on Iraq does not fall into that category. In fact, it works against it.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 26):
Take a drive around the inner city of Detroit and tell me that all that vacant land is idle for a reason. Same in Cleveland. Baghdad is a big city and just like here, crime happens.

I'm not recalling any large scale car bombings in Detroit or Cleveland of late. Yeah, cities are going to have crime, but to use that to say that Baghdad is just like any large city is just as disingenuous as saying that chaos is rampant in the streets.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 33):
There are people who live in the same kind of fear that Iraqis do here in the United States.

I'm sure there are. I'd bet they are much more common in Iraq.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:52 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 40):
Quoting RJdxer (Reply 33):
There are people who live in the same kind of fear that Iraqis do here in the United States.

I'm sure there are. I'd bet they are much more common in Iraq.

It is just astonishing Mir, that there is even the beginnings of an argument about this. We know that homicide rates are high in the US and that politicians have been encouraging fear of crime. But to conflate the state of security in the US with that in Iraq is beyond belief.

Then again, it probably is a part of the whole invade Iraq syndrome of denial of the bleeding obvious.

Quoting Mir (Reply 40):
Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 10):
Of course not all the deaths were in the name of freedom but I bet to you that the Iraqis are a hell of a lot happier now. A million people left Iraq because they now could!

So happy with the new Iraq that they immediately...left it?

Those refugees are going to be an ongoing problem. And how is the US going in terms of accepting those who have fled Iraq? Last time I heard the US was way behind Sweden in taking Iraqi refugees. I presume it is not a lack on interest from the refugees, but rather an unwillingness to take them.

Meanwhile the refugees remain a problem. And do not imagine for a moment that the rest of the Islamic world has not taken notice. More "brownie points" for you know who. Where is he by the way?
 
RJdxer
Topic Author
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:08 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 38):
But if we've now handed over 1/2 the provinces back to the Iraqis, and murder rates are akin to Detroit or Los Angeles now, shouldn't we be able to bring 30,000 to 50,000 troops home now? If not, why not?

You need to read more.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080103.../iraqunrestuspetraeus_080103094401
And before you say why not right now, they didn't all get over there in one day, they won't all get back in one day either.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 39):
Do you really believe a few outside infiltrators could have accelerated that mayhem for years

Yes, along with disgruntled bathists that you mention. It only takes a few irregulars to tie down a huge regular force. Ask the Viet Cong about that.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 39):
That unleashed literally an army of trained military folk who were by then distinctly pissed off with the US.

BS. The vast majority of Saddam's army were conscripts who were happy to give up. The Republican Guard and the higher ups had nothing to lose and fought on but for the past several years it has been AQ that has been the main threat as witnessed by the fact that the locals are tired of them and are turning them in or throwing them out of their neighborhoods.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 39):
Saddam was removed from power in short order, but if you think his power base was removed in that short order, well, that is part of the thinking that got you into this mess. And don't say you were not told, you were. Now you are being told again. The fat lady is a long way from singing.

Are you seriously going to deny that Anbar province was one of the most violent places in Iraq? Was considered lost by the military? And is yet now peaceful enough that it can be turned over to the Iraqi security forces who are still learning and not call that a victory? If so, then you prove the point that naysayers will never ever see victory.

Quoting Mir (Reply 40):
I'm not recalling any large scale car bombings in Detroit or Cleveland of late.

I do, I grew up in the 60's. I remember firefighters being shot at while they tried to put out fires started by fire bombs. I remember riots. The physical scars on those cities are still there.

Quoting Mir (Reply 40):
I'm sure there are. I'd bet they are much more common in Iraq.

Not only is Iraq much smaller, but obviously there has been an insurgent war going on for several years. Which makes statements like this seem even more out of place in this country since we are the opposite of both.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...icle?AID=/20080108/METRO/801080366

"Despite the decline, Detroit still has one of the highest murder rates in the country and was recently identified as one of the most dangerous cities in the country. Police reported 396 murders in 2007, down slightly from 418 in 2006.

Detroit resident Anthony Brunson, 68, said he feels there is still too much violence. He is cautious when he travels in the city.

"Sometimes you have to look over your shoulder," he said.

"It depends on where you go and who you hang with. Of course, in certain areas you have to be careful. That's not just in Detroit, but in Boston, Chicago -- anywhere."

Quoting Baroque (Reply 41):
Where is he by the way?

According to Wikipedia he is the CEO of one company and associated with another. I think he learned his lesson that the press will never indict themselves as being wrong. New Hampshire and the polls, made by and for the media prove that.

Perhaps you need to read a little more as well.

http://www.aim.org/aim-column/the-washington-wringer/
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:24 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 38):
if we've now handed over 1/2 the provinces back to the Iraqis, and murder rates are akin to Detroit or Los Angeles now, shouldn't we be able to bring 30,000 to 50,000 troops home now?

The murder rates in Iraq will go down when Iraqi law-enforcers and armed forces will have it THEIR way, so that this is not a long term problem really

Quoting Baroque (Reply 39):
Majority Shia who were going to "win" any election that was halfway fair, but who were also internally divided; and on another side
Minority Sunni, who had been the majority in the army and had now been kicked out of power and out of their jobs

In the last elections, city-dwellers in practice could not go voting, as the elections were held at a time of absolute turmoil, and the most important Secularist party, the Socialist Ba'ath Party was banned. This gave the fundamentalists on both sides such a success. In the next elections, the Secularists of both denominations will have far more weight then last time. Under democratic circumstances, it will be rather Shi'ites, but it will be a less religious set-up alltogether, and the Socialists will take a nice slice of seats in parliaments, among them of course many Shi'ites.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 42):
The vast majority of Saddam's army were conscripts who were happy to give up.

and you should not forget that most generals and high-ranking officers were intense Saddam-opponents, just subdued and sometimes killed by his secret-service, with which he had infiltrated both the armed forces and the Ba'ath Party.
 
IADCA
Posts: 1351
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:31 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 42):
"Despite the decline, Detroit still has one of the highest murder rates in the country and was recently identified as one of the most dangerous cities in the country. Police reported 396 murders in 2007, down slightly from 418 in 2006.

Detroit resident Anthony Brunson, 68, said he feels there is still too much violence. He is cautious when he travels in the city.

"Sometimes you have to look over your shoulder," he said.

"It depends on where you go and who you hang with. Of course, in certain areas you have to be careful. That's not just in Detroit, but in Boston, Chicago -- anywhere."

Comparing any of those cities with Baghdad is entirely disingenuous. If any US cities had anywhere near the police/military presence Baghdad has, crime would be a lot lower. Also, (and this is most important), the majority of violent crime in US cities happens at night. For most of 2007 (what you're basing your violence rates off of, I assume), Baghdad was under a curfew, sometimes starting as early as 3 PM. When things got bad, the curfew was occasionally extended to run through the day to control retaliatory violence. As far as I know, Baghdad still has a nightly curfew, and with huge numbers of troops, the guns to at least passably enforce this. I've done some work in some of the areas in DC generally considered to be pretty unsafe, and it's fine during the day, but hell at night. Baghdad is supposedly getting better during the day, but that still wouldn't make it comparable to a US city. When American personnel travel alone outside the Green Zone even during the day, then maybe there will be some standard of comparison. As far as I know, that's not happening yet.

[Edited 2008-01-15 07:33:54]
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:28 pm



Quoting IADCA (Reply 44):
When American personnel travel alone outside the Green Zone even during the day, then maybe there will be some standard of comparison.

As long as it is "American personnel" and a "Green Zone" comparisons do not work. It will be possible to compare when it will be US-American tourists enroute to and from Babylon and other archeological sites, and personnel of the US-Embassy in the FORMER "Green Zione" .
 
EvilForce
Posts: 974
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:12 am

RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:36 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 42):
Quoting EvilForce (Reply 38):
But if we've now handed over 1/2 the provinces back to the Iraqis, and murder rates are akin to Detroit or Los Angeles now, shouldn't we be able to bring 30,000 to 50,000 troops home now? If not, why not?

You need to read more.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080103.../iraqunrestuspetraeus_080103094401
And before you say why not right now, they didn't all get over there in one day, they won't all get back in one day either.

Pretty interesting that we'll be able to pull them out at EXACTLY the same time as our troop rotation requires them to be cycled back home isn't it? How convenient. Deployments were upped to 15 months from 12 months by Gates last year. Our surge started early last year, and by miracles of all miracles they will have been deployed for 15 months almost to the day.

As I've said, the surge was ending one way or another. We don't have the troops to rotate thru. Even if the violence wasn't quelled at all, they would still had to have been pulled out.

So if you need to call it "a win" to bring them home, fine by me, just bring them home.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
IADCA
Posts: 1351
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:40 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 45):
As long as it is "American personnel" and a "Green Zone" comparisons do not work. It will be possible to compare when it will be US-American tourists enroute to and from Babylon and other archeological sites, and personnel of the US-Embassy in the FORMER "Green Zione" .

Fine, if you insist on calling it the FORMER Green Zone, I'll point out that was only ever the Green Zone in military terminology and US temporary government. Now that it's titularly under Iraqi control, it's the International Zone. Call it the International Zone, International Sector, whatever you want. Calling a dog's tail a leg doesn't make it one; it's still the same area and it still exists due to the largesse of American security forces. And you're right about American personnel coming out of the Green Zone. Fine, how about American tourists going to Babylon? Oh, right, there aren't any, because it's too damn dangerous.

[Edited 2008-01-15 08:44:40]
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:48 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 42):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 39):
Saddam was removed from power in short order, but if you think his power base was removed in that short order, well, that is part of the thinking that got you into this mess. And don't say you were not told, you were. Now you are being told again. The fat lady is a long way from singing.

Are you seriously going to deny that Anbar province was one of the most violent places in Iraq? Was considered lost by the military? And is yet now peaceful enough that it can be turned over to the Iraqi security forces who are still learning and not call that a victory? If so, then you prove the point that naysayers will never ever see victory.

And you think the fat lady is singing? She is not even in the wings yet. Anbar appears better than it was. But if you believe that in 6 months all is changed, well words do not fail me, but I am far too polite to use them. I do not pretend to know the ins and outs of Sunni politics in Anbar but I will bet they are a damned sight more complex that has been indicated so far. As MAF suggests, wait until the next elections for a whole different sets of strains, but hopefully some down playing of the religious side. Then again, maybe the whole idea of democracy has already been lost to the religious nuts. Wonder why the Islamic religious nuts in Iraq found favour with the US admin?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 42):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 41):
Where is he by the way?

According to Wikipedia he is the CEO of one company and associated with another. I think he learned his lesson that the press will never indict themselves as being wrong. New Hampshire and the polls, made by and for the media prove that.

Perhaps you need to read a little more as well.

He probably does own a company or three. He might be interested in New Hamps and poll although I would wonder why, but really he tends to write his own stuff and does not listen all that much. I was talking about the guy who DID win in Iraq, Osama. You need to read more carefully.

In other news, Abu Bakar Bashir has been rabbiting on again, and he thinks the Bali bombers were trying their best, but interestingly adds that he thinks Osama would NOT have approved of the Bali bombing as Bali was "not in a conflict zone".

We really should listen more carefully to what these guys say!!
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/bom...shir/2008/01/15/1200159448486.html
If that is so, they have their definitions of conflict zones. Interesting to know what the definitions are, but I will bet they start with US military presence.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Anbar Province Could Be Handed Over In Spring

Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:00 pm



Quoting IADCA (Reply 47):
it's still the same area and it still exists due to the largesse of American security forces

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I anyway spoke about the future and not about the presence. There also are no tourists enroute right now of course. And the "largesse" of American Security Forces will be replaced by the "largesse" of Iraqi Security Forces.
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Quoting IADCA (Reply 47):
Fine, how about American tourists going to Babylon? Oh, right, there aren't any, because it's too damn dangerous.

I said WHEN and clearly referred about the future and NOT the present ! A time when "Travels to the treasures of Mesopotamia" will be in the catalogues of any decent tour operator, and when Iraqi Airways will again be a major air operator of the region
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