Falcon84
Topic Author
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City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:22 am

From the city hardest hit by the Subprime nightmare that is still unfolding across the nation"

http://money.cnn.com/2008/01/11/real...t/index.htm?postversion=2008011114

I'm not sure if I agree with the suit, but their is no doubt the greed and lack of oversight on the banking industry has played a huge role in this housing collapse, and maybe a hard shot to the groin is what is needed to get the banks back in line.

Also below is an interesting article about how bad it is in CLE and what led to it.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/11/12/real...land_foreclosure_factors/index.htm

And, please, to some of our conservative friends-don't go blaming homeowners who were only trying to better their lives. For ONCE put the blame on banks and lending institutions, who KNEW they were offering a con to many people. The banks have gotten away with robbery the last few years with this abomination of a "banking reform", that gave them billions, and made it next to impossible for people to get out of debt, and be at the mercy of banks for years upon years.

The fault is not with the consumer-it is with the lending institutions, who violated the trust of their customers, by putting out a product that they said was safe and above board, and was neither.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
GuitrThree
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:55 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
The fault is not with the consumer-it is with the lending institutions, who violated the trust of their customers, by putting out a product that they said was safe and above board, and was neither.

I'm sorry Falcon, but it IS the fault of not only the lending institutions, but ALSO the consumers. It's just like smoking. The consumer KNOWS it's bad for them, but they keep smoking. The makers keep making the smokes and they KNOW its bad for their consumers.

Sorry. But people should have realized that what ever their situation, buying too much house, getting an ARM, 125% financing, whatever, they should at least take SOME blame.

This is not different than buying too much car, or taking a loan which has some off their old car debt on it (so-called payoff loans), etc, and having it repo'ed... Again, we should put some blame on the dealer that did the deal, but the consumer should know that paying $500 for 6 years on a $15,000 car is craziness. But they do it anyway. This happens thousands of times EACH DAY, and no ones shouting for the dealers to be punished.

So I'm not saying the lenders shouldn't be punished, they absolutely should, and I'm glad some of them are having to shut their doors for doing so. But the American public must get over this idea that they can do no wrong and get compensated for it when they actually do. I can list example after example...
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Queso
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:09 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
don't go blaming homeowners who were only trying to better their lives. For ONCE put the blame on banks and lending institutions, who KNEW they were offering a con to many people. The banks have gotten away with robbery the last few years with this abomination of a "banking reform", that gave them billions, and made it next to impossible for people to get out of debt, and be at the mercy of banks for years upon years.

Oh, far be it from me to ever suggest anyone take responsibility for educating themselves and making the right choice when it comes to things that affect their lives for the next 30 years. No, never. The government is responsible for this and every other problem people have.... Fires, floods, famines, mouse infestations, hurricanes, tornadoes, drunk driving, playing in the street, assuming loans they know damned well they can't pay off, etc.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
The fault is not with the consumer-it is with the lending institutions, who violated the trust of their customers, by putting out a product that they said was safe and above board, and was neither.

Yep, it sure is. The lending institutions held a gun to the consumer's heads and told them they'd better take out a loan they couldn't afford or else! They made the consumers "an offer they can't refuse".



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
From the city hardest hit by the Subprime nightmare that is still unfolding across the nation

Maybe CLE just has more "entitlement-minded" people that think it's the government's responsibility to bail them out when they dump on a 30 year loan 3 years into it.
 
EvilForce
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:21 pm

Can anyone say S&L crisis? It happens EVERY time there's a run up in housing prices. Developers overbuild for the market, prices come down, structural instability in the underpinnings financing the run up get exposed. Pain and hardship endured by the various parties who forgot the main mantra of assets, buy low, sell high. When you buy high, to try and sell higher, eventually you get burned. Badly.

Last time I checked the Constitution home ownership in this country wasn't an inalienable right.

I had two houses that I sold as the market was nearing it's peak. It was pretty clear to many of us that real estate in many markets had risen too quickly. I am now a renter until I see a little more deflation out of the housing market. People make CHOICES to buy or rent, with the respective pros/cons of each.

One person's pain and misfortune can be another's gain and good fortune. History repeats itself again and again. People knew better, and that includes banks and investors as well.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
learpilot
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:41 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
don't go blaming homeowners who were only trying to better their lives.

I have no sympathy for most of these people, and I'm far from a conservative. It's simple math: Monthly Income - Monthly Expenses = a positive number, preferably greater than $500. If not? You can't afford it. Sure, some families have fallen on hard times and I do have sympathy for them, but a majority of people who's homes are being forclosed on were bettering their lives by moving up to the 5 bedroom/4 bathroom/media room for the $3000 LCD TV McMansion because the 3br/2ba wasn't as big as what the Jones' moved up to.

I was in the position in that I lost my job back in October. I live in a 3 year old home with a $1000/mo payment. We weren't concerned one bit about my lack of employment because we actually...get this...had enough money in savings to last at least a year; probably longer since the wife works.

Wow, saving money. What a concept.
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Falcon84
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:20 pm



Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 1):
I'm sorry Falcon, but it IS the fault of not only the lending institutions, but ALSO the consumers.

Wrong. In a situation, there has to be some trust that, as a consumer, you know what the bank/lender is doing. You can read all the fine print you want, but in the end, the banks/lenders were deceptive at how risky these were, and they're the ones who put the loans out.

I figured it wouldn't take long for someone to blame the little guy as much, if not more, than the banks. They fucked over the consumers in another attempt at sheer greed. It wasn't enough that the "banking reform" gave them billions, it's never enough with them.

Sorry, but the blame goes to those who put out these loans, and sold them under false pretenses.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
andessmf
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:26 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):

There is plenty of blame to go around and I do know that some got taken advantage of. But a lot, including consumers, got greedy. The same applies to local governments, who saw their coffers expand due to the additional revenue caused by the increased prices. Governments, much like in the dot.com bubble, had no incentive to put a stop to a situation that was giving them bumper revenues.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
I figured it wouldn't take long for someone to blame the little guy as much, if not more, than the banks.

There are plenty of stories, if you care to find them, about the 'little guys' greed.
 
Queso
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:42 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
Sorry, but the blame goes to those who put out these loans, and sold them under false pretenses.

You don't feel that there is any responsibility on the part of the consumer?

A home loan is just another "product" and caveat emptor still applies. There was no "active concealment" of any defect of the product in these cases, just a lack of understanding (or pure negligence) on the part of those who defaulted at the time they accepted the terms of the loan! As such, the consumer needs to engage the services of legal and financial counsel in cases involving such a substantial portion of the consumer's income for such a substantial amount of time.

It's just that simple.
 
MaidensGator
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:07 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
Wrong. In a situation, there has to be some trust that, as a consumer, you know what the bank/lender is doing. You can read all the fine print you want, but in the end, the banks/lenders were deceptive at how risky these were, and they're the ones who put the loans out

The loans were risky for the BANKS... not the consumers... It doesn't take an MBA to figure out if you make 30 grand a year, you can't afford a 200,000 dollar house with no money down...

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
I figured it wouldn't take long for someone to blame the little guy as much, if not more, than the banks.

It's the banks that lost the money, not the little guys who got houses with no money down... They got to live above their means for practically nothing...
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
huskyaviation
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:25 pm



Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 8):
It's the banks that lost the money, not the little guys who got houses with no money down... They got to live above their means for practically nothing...

That's not totally true, because when the local real estate markets crashed, those homeowners went underwater in their equity...and in some situations continue to be personally responsible for the shortfall on the note.

I see both sides' arguments, but I don't think it's right to (1) simply blame the individual, because people that lack basic understanding of finance (and that's a LOT of people) simply aren't capable of making sophisticated assessments of the market and future interest rates/payments, or (2) blame the banks, because they were assuming significant risks in running a business and could not have foreseen the market tumbling the way it did, and following legal lending practices.

The reason I favor some kind of federal plan (notice, I didn't saying intervention or bailout) to ease the crisis is because there will be a lot of collateral damage to people that have only indirect involvement in the subprime markets, such as through mutual funds, pensions, or other investments, stand to lose the most if nothing is done.
 
MaidensGator
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:44 pm



Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 9):
Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 8):
It's the banks that lost the money, not the little guys who got houses with no money down... They got to live above their means for practically nothing...

That's not totally true, because when the local real estate markets crashed, those homeowners went underwater in their equity...and in some situations continue to be personally responsible for the shortfall on the note.

I agree totally... That's why I specified people with no money down. Many have been living in the house for a couple years and have never had any equity.

I've been getting a lot of people in the office who are getting foreclosed, and a huge majority got their houses with nothing down. Of those, about 2/3 are speculators from out of state, who bought sight unseen hoping to make a killing. I had a guy last week who makes 40K and was loaned $281K without putting ten cents into the house. He's been living in it for two months and has yet to make a payment... I had another woman who showed up driving a brand new $40,000 truck. She gets about $800 a month disability, but borrowed 125% of the value of her house to buy the truck and pay credit cards. Another couple from California were immigrants from India. They only make 20K, but lied on the application and said they make 90K to speculate on a house in Florida for $300,000 with no money down. I asked them why they lied about their income and they said "It's the American way...."

I do feel bad for these people, but I've closed dozens of loans, and I always emphasize the TILA disclosures and the buyers don't want to hear it. They just want the keys to the house...

No doubt it's a complex problem, but there's no way you can put all the blame on the banks. Most of it goes to greed IMHO.
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
Queso
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:56 pm



Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 10):
I always emphasize the TILA disclosures and the buyers don't want to hear it. They just want the keys to the house...

 checkmark  And that's the whole point, right there.
 
halls120
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:07 am



Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 1):
Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
The fault is not with the consumer-it is with the lending institutions, who violated the trust of their customers, by putting out a product that they said was safe and above board, and was neither.

I'm sorry Falcon, but it IS the fault of not only the lending institutions, but ALSO the consumers. It's just like smoking. The consumer KNOWS it's bad for them, but they keep smoking. The makers keep making the smokes and they KNOW its bad for their consumers.

 checkmark 

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 1):
I'm sorry Falcon, but it IS the fault of not only the lending institutions, but ALSO the consumers.

Wrong. In a situation, there has to be some trust that, as a consumer, you know what the bank/lender is doing. You can read all the fine print you want, but in the end, the banks/lenders were deceptive at how risky these were, and they're the ones who put the loans out.

You just cannot evade personal responsibility, Falcon. Should predatory lenders be prosecuted? Absolutely. But no matter how small the fine print, when someone is about to embark on the biggest financial transaction of your life, it behooves you to make sure you can afford it.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Falcon84
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:27 am



Quoting Queso (Reply 7):
You don't feel that there is any responsibility on the part of the consumer?

Their "responsibility", in my view, is simply wanting a roof over their heads. Again, you can read those agreements all you want, Queso, but you HAVE to put your trust in the institution that does this for a living, that these are straight-up and legit-especially from the major banks and lenders. That's the JOB of those places, and they violeted the public trust.

Quoting Queso (Reply 7):
It's just that simple.

Nothing is that simple, and you know it. Again, you seem to dismiss the fact that the banks/lenders did deceive people with these loans. When they're putting them out as safe alternatiives, that's deception. But why am I NOT surprised you're on the side of the businesses?

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 8):
The loans were risky for the BANKS... not the consumers...

 rotfl 

How the hell do you come to that conclusion when the consumers have been taken it up the ass with forclosures? That's hysterically funny. Well, it would be if it wasn't so devistating to so many families, who lost their homes.

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 8):
It's the banks that lost the money, not the little guys who got houses with no money down... They got to live above their means for practically nothing...

And then lost everything when the market went south, and the truth about these loans became know. As for the bank, they're going to be able to get money from the government to cover the losses, so they didn't lose jack shit. Nice try thought.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
huskyaviation
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:33 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
When they're putting them out as safe alternatiives, that's deception. But why am I NOT surprised you're on the side of the businesses?

I don't think Queso is on the side of those businesses, he wants them to fail too. LOL.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
How the hell do you come to that conclusion when the consumers have been taken it up the ass with forclosures?

How do you NOT come to that conclusion? The banks knew that if interest rates shot up, these loans would run the risk of default, and their own liquidity goes down the drain. That's exactly the problem with the credit crunch right now, there's limited liquidity. What good is foreclosure if the house isn't worth anything when you foreclose on it? The bank (or the successor owner of the mortgage) ultimately eats the immediate fiscal loss, not the homeowner.
 
halls120
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:33 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Quoting Queso (Reply 7):
You don't feel that there is any responsibility on the part of the consumer?

Their "responsibility", in my view, is simply wanting a roof over their heads. Again, you can read those agreements all you want, Queso, but you HAVE to put your trust in the institution that does this for a living, that these are straight-up and legit-especially from the major banks and lenders. That's the JOB of those places, and they violeted the public trust.

Hogwash. It's a business transaction. Complicated, but a business transaction. Your attitude that the poor consumer doesn't have to accept his or her share of the responsibility of being educated in a business transaction is simply misguided, and to the extent that it is widely shared, is a sad reflection on the state of our country.

Nobody held a gun to the heads of the people who signed on the dotted line to buy a home they couldn't afford.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Queso
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:36 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Again, you seem to dismiss the fact that the banks/lenders did deceive people with these loans. When they're putting them out as safe alternatiives, that's deception. But why am I NOT surprised you're on the side of the businesses?

Believe me, Falcon, I really am in favor of the people who need the loans. That's why I said they need an informed ally in these types of situations....

Quoting Queso (Reply 7):
the consumer needs to engage the services of legal and financial counsel in cases involving such a substantial portion of the consumer's income for such a substantial amount of time.

Just like I won't engage in a lawsuit without a lawyer or have a large structure built without the aid of an architect, there are some things that you just have to go to a professional for. Cost is minimal when you look at the price of a house!

Edit: P.S., Falcon, let's try not to make this personal this time, mmmmmkay? Just stick to the discussion points at hand.

[Edited 2008-01-12 17:39:47]
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:47 am

Not everyone can be a financial whiz. I find business and financial decision-making difficult to understand and very intimidating. But I can't get by in life by avoiding them. So I have to defer to someone who knows more than me. Unfortunately, the people who've been entrusted, in this case the banks and mortgage companies), lie and twist the truth in order to make a fast buck.

Before you jump my ass for being a dumb fuck, I want to say that as a nurse I find it very easy to make medical decisions regarding my family. Grandma's got what wrong? What are the benefits and risks? Pull the plug. No prob. Diabetic dad's got a foot ulcer that won't heal? Lop off the whole leg the save his life. Piece of cake. Next!

Not everyone can be an expert on everything. Understand where I (and other "stupid" people are coming from? Don't belittle them and try to rub it in. We (especially me) are already aware of our mistakes. Rubbing our noses in it doesn't help.
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Queso
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:52 am



Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 17):
Before you jump my ass for being a dumb fuck

Who is doing that?

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 17):
Not everyone can be an expert on everything. Understand where I (and other "stupid" people are coming from? Don't belittle them and try to rub it in. We (especially me) are already aware of our mistakes. Rubbing our noses in it doesn't help.

That's why you get on A.net and ask all the armchair lawyers and financial advisors what to do before you go through with it!  Big grin
 
EvilForce
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:55 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Their "responsibility", in my view, is simply wanting a roof over their heads. Again, you can read those agreements all you want, Queso, but you HAVE to put your trust in the institution that does this for a living, that these are straight-up and legit-especially from the major banks and lenders. That's the JOB of those places, and they violeted the public trust.

Hogwash. Every local community college offers classes on managing your finances, and home buying classes are offered as well. In addition you have the internet and library as resources to learn about "how to buy and finance a home".

Anyone who doesn't read the paperwork themselves and understands it is a fool. That's why you have inspections. That's why you have appraisals. That's why you hire an attorney to represent you at closing. None of them are required by law but you are playing very fast and very loose if you don't. Don't complain about getting burned because you cut corners or didn't want to spend then money for a lawyer to review your loan docs.

The fees and interest rates were disclosed to these people. It's not like the banks committed fraud by altering loan docs after the fact.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
How the hell do you come to that conclusion when the consumers have been taken it up the ass with forclosures? That's hysterically funny. Well, it would be if it wasn't so devistating to so many families, who lost their homes.

You must be joking. Repossession costs a bank about $20,000 in fees and expenses. I'm not saying the bank should be bailed out of it's bad judgement in lending to people with bad credit. Both the bank and the consumer entered into an agreement. Both are equally at fault and at risk.

Nuff said.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:00 am



Quoting Queso (Reply 18):
Who is doing that?

It's just something I could see coming somewhere in this thread.

Quoting Queso (Reply 18):
That's why you get on A.net and ask all the armchair lawyers and financial advisors what to do before you go through with it!

I'm not that presumptuous.
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
halls120
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:01 am



Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 17):
Not everyone can be a financial whiz. I find business and financial decision-making difficult to understand and very intimidating. But I can't get by in life by avoiding them. So I have to defer to someone who knows more than me. Unfortunately, the people who've been entrusted, in this case the banks and mortgage companies), lie and twist the truth in order to make a fast buck.

Anybody who wants to buy a home and doesn't engage the services of a lawyer or a real estate "buyers" broker to help them in that transaction is playing with fire.

I'm a lawyer, and when I bought my home, I made damn sure that I employed a real estate broker to make sure I didn't miss the any hidden details.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:06 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 21):
I employed a real estate broker

I trusted me real estate broker. I'll put it this way... He was foreclosed upon six months after me.

[Edited 2008-01-12 18:09:09]
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EvilForce
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:14 am



Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 22):
I trusted me real estate broker. I'll put it this way... He was foreclosed upon six months after me.

Why did you default on your loan if I can ask?
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:23 am



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 23):
Why did you default on your loan if I can ask?

Long story short: Had to get out of medical field for what was later found to be PTSD. Watching a child murdered was too much for me. I had a long-term disability policy, but it had a low lifetime max psychological benefit, which ended before the Wisconsin disability kicked in. My mortgage company, Countrywide, wouldn't/couldn't delay on the hope that state disability would be approved.


My previous monthly income was $5000 a month. My mortgage payment was $1000 a month. I tried to sell the house, but no one bought it after being on the market for a year.
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
huskyaviation
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:26 am



Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 24):
Long story short: Had to get out of medical field for what was later found to be PTSD. Watching a child murdered was too much for me. I had a long-term disability policy, but it had a low lifetime max psychological benefit, which ended before the Wisconsin disability kicked in.

I'm really sorry to hear that, that really stinks. I hope you're doing better now.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 24):
My mortgage company, Countrywide, wouldn't/couldn't delay on the hope that state disability would be approved.

One of the benefits of the Bank of America purchase of Countrywide is that with BofA's better financial health, they have stated they will be more willing to restructure mortgages to keep them out of default. Obviously too little, too late for you Mark, but maybe it will help others in similar situations.
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:31 am



Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 25):
I hope you're doing better now.

I'll be ready to go back to work in a different career. I afraid the medical diagnosis and financial problems will label me as bad goods when prospective employers do their background checks.
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
Queso
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:33 am



Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 25):
One of the benefits of the Bank of America purchase of Countrywide is that with BofA's better financial health, they have stated they will be more willing to restructure mortgages to keep them out of default.

Don't let "our liberal friends" know that....

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
And, please, to some of our conservative friends-don't go blaming homeowners who were only trying to better their lives. For ONCE put the blame on banks and lending institutions, who KNEW they were offering a con to many people.

 Yeah sure
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:36 am



Quoting Queso (Reply 27):
Don't let "our liberal friends" know that....

I have the worst fucking luck....
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andessmf
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:39 am



Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 17):
Not everyone can be a financial whiz...

Myself included.

There are plenty of actual victims and many ways that a crooked broker could scam a consumer. One of the hidden factors was that a broker was would receive anywhere from 2X to 3X more commission from pushing these 'exotic' loans, even when the person qualified for a conventional loan. Hence, plenty of consumers got stuck with loans that were ultimately harmful to them.

Another thing that a broker could do, which was done to me, is verbally quoting us a rate, but change the rate in the paperwork we were to sign. My wife didn't catch it once, but twice. This was done to give the broker more commission, and was sold to us as being 'better'.

BUT...

BUT...

BUT...


There was a HUGE amount of speculation that occurred worldwide. There are numbers out there that indicate that about 30% of the houses bought in the country during the run-up where bought by people who expected to make money due to the appreciation that was occurring. In other areas, such as PHX, LAS, SMF, etc. the amount of speculators was almost 50%. In some condo buildings they approached 70%.

These are people who took advantage of 100% loans, and a bit of fraud, to amass a real estate portfolio, assuming that appreciation would make them very, very rich. I know of several, in my family, who did/are doing this. Should these people be given a break? No. And these speculators are making up a large percentage of foreclosures.

And so far only the 'poor' are being portrayed as suffering from this problem. All I know is that ALL levels of society overextended themselves during the bubble, and soon we shall see more of the 'rich' suffer as well.

But what happened was far more complex than what is noted in this thread.
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:07 am

And this one is for MaidensGator, who wants us to feel bad for the poor, pitiful banks, and how they'll "lose" money in all this. Read:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/01/11/news...ntrywide.fortune/index.htm?cnn=yes

You read it right. BOFA will be able, in the end, to probably save $1.5 BILLION in taxes.

Don't EVER try to get me to sympathize with the banks, or any other humongous business like them. They're making windfalls off this newer banking reform, and they got into Subprime, because they saw a chance to get even more. And this crisis won't hurt them anywhere near as much as it will hurt consumers.

Yes, those poor banks.  Yeah sure
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ltbewr
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:37 am

I believe the city of Cleveland is suing as the amount of abandoned housing in the city is hurting the city and they need to recover lost revenue. Many neighborhoods in the city and throughout the area are seeing huge percentages of abandoned houses and those areas becoming crime ridden slums raising police and justice costs as well as losses of property tax revenue. Some would say that many mortgages were made in high risk areas of cities due to pressure on banks and mortgage makers to make loans to help cities have investment in housing as well as attempt to break long running discrimination of other than white suburban borrowers. Besides the other reasons well known nationwide and regional issues as to the mortgage crises, Cleveland (and other cities) have seen a drop in good paying middle class/working class jobs due to productivity changes and being shipped to elsewhere in the USA or the world.
In the S&L crises in the 1980's changes were made as to regulations as to banking management, stricter requirement as to appraisals and who could get a loan. After the tech boom broke in late 2000 and into 2001and the events of 9/11, many wanted to invest in real estate as in the long run you can probably make a lot of money or at the least not lose your investment. Once again we need to develop proper regulation and laws, including tax laws, to try to limit such boom/bust cycles in real property.
 
andessmf
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:44 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 30):
They're making windfalls off this newer banking reform, and they got into Subprime, because they saw a chance to get even more.

And no one here is asking you to. All some want is a recognition that what occurred has plenty of guilty parties, from banks, brokers, real estate agents, speculators, and people who overreached on the assumption that real estate 'always goes up'. No that so many have been caught with their pants down, the typical blame game begins.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 31):
Once again we need to develop proper regulation and laws, including tax laws, to try to limit such boom/bust cycles in real property

Boo/bust cycles (not only in RE) have occurred since time immemorial. The only way to eliminate them is by removing greed from the population, and we know when THAT is going to happen...

Again, many cities saw a tax windfall from rising property taxes due to the boom. They had absolutely NO incentive to maintain the prices at affordable levels. Now that their stupidity is showing, they will blame others but themselves for the hole they all dug.
 
GuitrThree
Posts: 1940
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:53 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Their "responsibility", in my view, is simply wanting a roof over their heads.

Really? "Simply wanting a roof over their heads?"

Humm.. maybe I'm wrong, but don't Apartments provide roofs?

How about affordable houses? Why do you have to buy a 6 bedroom, 5,000 sq ft house to get a roof attached? Last time I checked, the typical 3 bedroom, 1,800 sq ft house came with a roof......

Oh, and what about an ARM mortgage? Does it take one of these to attach a roof? Please provide me a lender contract that says you must sign for an ARM before a roof is attached to your house..

Again, Falcon, you are simply overlooking the fact that people "just wanted a roof over their heads" when they WAY overbought a house, signed for an ARM, or did a 125% loan.

Please, read all the responses here...

You are simply way overboard wrong here in saying the consumer has NO blame in this issue.
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Falcon84
Topic Author
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:56 am



Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 33):
You are simply way overboard wrong here in saying the consumer has NO blame in this issue.

Then I'm way overboard wrong. The consumers are in a position where they HAVE to have a semblance of trust that the banks/lenders are putting out services that are truly legit. And these weren't. And you don't seem to want to finger the banks/lenders, from what I can tell. They're the one's that put out this crap. Try damning them for the fact that they did, in fact, mislead consumers, and put them at risk. As a conservative, I know it's hard, but give it a try.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
MaidensGator
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:15 am



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 19):
That's why you hire an attorney to represent you at closing. None of them are required by law but you are playing very fast and very loose if you don't. Don't complain about getting burned because you cut corners or didn't want to spend then money for a lawyer to review your loan docs.



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 21):
Anybody who wants to buy a home and doesn't engage the services of a lawyer or a real estate "buyers" broker to help them in that transaction is playing with fire.

This advice holds true for just about any big contract you're entering into, not just real estate....

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 30):
And this one is for MaidensGator, who wants us to feel bad for the poor, pitiful banks, and how they'll "lose" money in all this.

I'd love it if you'd point out where I said to feel bad for the banks, or implied they were poor pitiful banks... If you have to put words in my mouth for your argument to work, you've got no argument at all....

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 34):
Then I'm way overboard wrong.

 checkmark 
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
EvilForce
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:22 am



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 32):
Again, many cities saw a tax windfall from rising property taxes due to the boom. They had absolutely NO incentive to maintain the prices at affordable levels.

Huh? How exactly is city government responsible for housing prices and the sub-prime debacle?
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
GuitrThree
Posts: 1940
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:14 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 34):
As a conservative, I know it's hard, but give it a try.

As a conservative, I, as usually, give the power to the individual, not the government. Not surprising here...

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 34):
Then I'm way overboard wrong.

Yes. You are...

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 34):
And you don't seem to want to finger the banks/lenders, from what I can tell.

No.. I have TWO fingers... one to the lender.. on to the borrower... EACH equal in length...

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 34):
They're the one's that put out this crap.

Just because one puts out "crap" doesn't mean that one is "forced" to by it.....
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andessmf
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:37 am



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 36):
Huh? How exactly is city government responsible for housing prices and the sub-prime debacle?

They are not responsible for the price rise, but benefitted nicely from the additional tax revenue due to to the boom. Hence, the cities had no incentive to pop the bubble, but are now pointing fingers.
 
EvilForce
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:57 am



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 38):
They are not responsible for the price rise, but benefitted nicely from the additional tax revenue due to to the boom. Hence, the cities had no incentive to pop the bubble, but are now pointing fingers.

Ok, but how could city government "pop the bubble" even if they wanted to? You are implying that by their inaction, they actually had some action they could have taken, but didn't in making sure people didn't pay too much for their house.

But yes I agree with you. Cleveland is doing nothing other than finger pointing and seeking to cash in from their silly lawsuit that has no merit.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
halls120
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:23 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 34):
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 33):
You are simply way overboard wrong here in saying the consumer has NO blame in this issue.

Then I'm way overboard wrong. The consumers are in a position where they HAVE to have a semblance of trust that the banks/lenders are putting out services that are truly legit.

This is your fundamental mistake. Remember RR's famous saying, "trust, but verify?" If you rely on the other party in a transaction to always be honest, you are fool.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
EvilForce
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:37 pm



Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 24):
My previous monthly income was $5000 a month. My mortgage payment was $1000 a month. I tried to sell the house, but no one bought it after being on the market for a year.

Sorry to hear about your medical problems. Also your payment was 20% of your income which anything under 25% is considered ideal.

But I assume you lost your house due to a bad shake of the dice and an unforeseen financial pothole, and not because the mortgage lender had "cheated" you as a few in this thread are accusing lenders of?
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:27 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 1):
I'm sorry Falcon, but it IS the fault of not only the lending institutions, but ALSO the consumers.

Wrong. In a situation, there has to be some trust that, as a consumer, you know what the bank/lender is doing. You can read all the fine print you want, but in the end, the banks/lenders were deceptive at how risky these were, and they're the ones who put the loans out.



Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 17):
Not everyone can be a financial whiz. I find business and financial decision-making difficult to understand and very intimidating. But I can't get by in life by avoiding them. So I have to defer to someone who knows more than me. Unfortunately, the people who've been entrusted, in this case the banks and mortgage companies), lie and twist the truth in order to make a fast buck.

First sorry to hear of your woes ACM, hope there is a REAL solution awaiting you. At least you have a.net and 40+ folk wishing you well!!  Wow!  Big grin

I think between them Falcon and ACM set out the issue very well. There is an issue with consumers, but the sub-prime scandal - it really is a scandal as well as a financial issue - come from relaxation of banking rules. It is not the first and alas, it will probably, certainly, not be the last. The banks deserve what is coming because they were skating on thin to non-existent ice to increase short term returns - fairly obviously, they are going to have a disaster for medium let alone longer term returns.

How much blame to the customers? It is difficult to believe that any went in having worked out it would be a disaster. Greed again must have been a factor for some. But it seems most likely that most simply did not understand the full implications of the contracts. In many cases they probably would not have understood the full implications of advice from financial advisers. And there is another part of the problem, the financial advice system is badly broken but nobody likes to admit it, because we all "know" that we all have to look after our own long term financial interests, None of this nanny state, and the hell with the 60%+ who cannot now, or will not be able to when they need to manage their financial affairs.

As for the mortgage agreements, happily, I have not seen one of those in 30 years. However, I have seen mobile phone contracts and have yet to understand a single one. My last phone effort was to pay 10$ a month for a faster connection and actually the download speed is now about 5% slower. Anybody wanting a detailed explanation of the cause should apply to Iinet - it involves DSLAMS on our local exchange. And yes, the page on the web was quite specific about the INCREASE in speeds.

Making the leap, I assume that some of the opacity of those mendacious documents has filtered through to mortgages. If so, well gawd help those trying to get a mortgage and even more gawd help those wanting to understand what they had signed.

So blame the banks and the financial wizards who thought up these crazy schemes of reselling mortgages by all means. Any time you resell something there are more costs so how in heaven's name is that going to help anyone at all?

But have some sympathy for at least a proportion of the buyers who have been left in a jungle that should have had the lion tamers in years ago. Or better still not have been allowed to turn into a jungle.

On a related topic, I see nobody having a swing at Greenspan. He sensed overexuberance but did sod all to slow it down, and arguably made it worse by rolling in extraordinarily low interest rates. These set off the price spiral in real estate which had to come to an end - and now has done just that. What a surprise!!  Wow!
 
EvilForce
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:42 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 42):
On a related topic, I see nobody having a swing at Greenspan. He sensed overexuberance but did sod all to slow it down, and arguably made it worse by rolling in extraordinarily low interest rates.

The "Fed" doesn't set mortgage rates. Mortgage rates are set based on T-bills and long term inflation predictions. The Fed sets the discount rate, which most banks have directly tied to their Prime rate, Credit card rates, Auto loans, and checking/svgs account interest payout rates. The Fed thereby manages short term interest rates, not long term.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
baroque
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:57 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 43):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 42):
On a related topic, I see nobody having a swing at Greenspan. He sensed overexuberance but did sod all to slow it down, and arguably made it worse by rolling in extraordinarily low interest rates.

The "Fed" doesn't set mortgage rates. Mortgage rates are set based on T-bills and long term inflation predictions. The Fed sets the discount rate, which most banks have directly tied to their Prime rate, Credit card rates, Auto loans, and checking/svgs account interest payout rates. The Fed thereby manages short term interest rates, not long term.

And you are telling me that the boom in housing prices had nothing to do with short term interest rates? Interesting!
 
ltbewr
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:26 pm

One source some blame for the mortgage crisis in the USA has to do with policies of the Bush Administration and the Republican party with some assistance from the Democrats too. Some believe the Republicans wanted to increase the number of property owners as they tend to be supportive of Republican polices to cut taxes and government spending, in part from the amounts they pay in property taxes. For Democrats, looser mortgage rules meant more could buy a home, something they want to see too as home ownership is the American Dream. Both parties and their members benefited from the political donations from the banking and financial services businesses to influence legislation and policy on mortgages.
Another issue, much like the S&L crises showed, is that most mortgages are insured by the government agencies and private insurance so the banks and institutions could make riskier loans and limited risk to themselves. Of course, after a certain tipping point, that insurance runs out and doesn't cover all investors/depositors and the institutions fold from their bad decisions.
 
AsstChiefMark
Posts: 10465
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:27 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 41):
the mortgage lender had "cheated" you as a few in this thread are accusing lenders of?

Countrywide was very strict. Whenever I tried to barter a deal or offer a payment program, their response every time was, "Payment as agreed upon by you and us in your contract is due on or before the scheduled monthly due date. There's nothing I can do to change that, sir."

I've very heard of a mortgage company that was unwilling to "work with" a client.
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GuitrThree
Posts: 1940
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:35 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 42):
But it seems most likely that most simply did not understand the full implications of the contracts.

Then you either don't sign or find someone that can explain it to you.....

Ignorance cannot be blamed on ANYONE but the ignorant themselves.

Thats a tough statement, I know, but it's true.
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comorin
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RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:11 pm

Banks play by the rules set in place by the regulatory authorities. Bankers get paid huge bonuses to maximize revenue flow. They care about the consumer to the extent of keeping him happy so he keeps coming back for more. They are paid to be greedier than the next guy - arguably predators.

Banks are in the business of making the mortgage and on selling the loan as a Mortgage Based Security or even simply as an asset. The secondary market takes on the risk and interest income, and the bank is free to do the next loan with a clean balance sheet.

Complex MBS's allowed cleverer mortgages to be brought to market. The general public does not have the financial analyst capability to understand the interest rate risk involved - at least not your average guy in Parma, OH. This is why we have a government-based system for protecting the average guy. It's the same government that checks our planes for us, so that passengers doesn't have to look at maintenance logs before climbing aboard.

The American economy has been in a boom, and the average consumer probably thought everything would work out fine. I'm sure that mortgage brokers competing for business contributed to this mind set - it's not all the consumer's fault. It was all too good to be true....

So the question is, who should hold the bag when the music stops? Politically, it's the consumer who can make sure he doesn't get stuck with a problem - make it your legislator's problem. This is just too big a problem for it to go away - the price will be recession and nobody wins.

It's not a Liberal/Conservative moral issue here, just hard-core finance and who gets stuck holding the short end of the stick.

The City of Cleveland is paid to aggressively fight for its electorate - let the courts decide.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: City Of CLE Sues 21 Banks In Subprime Fiasco

Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:23 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 42):
I think between them Falcon and ACM set out the issue very well. There is an issue with consumers, but the sub-prime scandal - it really is a scandal as well as a financial issue - come from relaxation of banking rules.

Falcon set the issue out very well, IF you ignore the carte blanche he gives consumers who were too lazy, stupid, greedy, or careless when entering into a major financial transaction.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 42):
How much blame to the customers? It is difficult to believe that any went in having worked out it would be a disaster. Greed again must have been a factor for some. But it seems most likely that most simply did not understand the full implications of the contracts.

Ah, once again, the poor consumer is just too ______ (enter paternalistic excuse here) to understand the nature of the deal.  sarcastic 

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 45):
One source some blame for the mortgage crisis in the USA has to do with policies of the Bush Administration and the Republican party with some assistance from the Democrats too. Some believe the Republicans wanted to increase the number of property owners as they tend to be supportive of Republican polices to cut taxes and government spending, in part from the amounts they pay in property taxes. For Democrats, looser mortgage rules meant more could buy a home, something they want to see too as home ownership is the American Dream.

Both parties try to improve the rates of home ownership. Don't try to pin this on one party.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography

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