cfalk
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Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:34 am

I think this goes too far. In the rush to worship at the altar of "diversity", people are forgetting that England is historically NOT a muslim country, and this will serve as a daily reminder to local residents that Islam is indeed trying to impose itself.

Not to mention that everyone knows how well tolerated a Christian church ringing its bells would be in most Muslim countries.

I think it might actually backlash, as this would be a daily reminder to that fact. Why is it always us that have to "respect diversity" and nobody else?

Quote:
Oxford bishop backs Islamic call to prayer
By Laura Clout
Last Updated: 2:24am GMT 12/01/2008



The Bishop of Oxford has supported plans to broadcast the Islamic call to prayer over part of the historic city.

Welcoming proposals from Oxford's Central Mosque to sound the call three times a day over East Oxford, the Rt Rev John Pritchard said those opposed to the plan should "relax" and "enjoy community diversity".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...xml=/news/2008/01/12/nislam112.xml
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kmh1956
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:24 am

If the Bishop of Oxford is willing to embrace the culture and religious beliefs of the Muslim community and respect their rights to prayer, then who are we to criticize?

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
Why is it always us that have to "respect diversity" and nobody else?

If you had to move to a Muslim country with a small but devout Christian community, wouldn't you expect the Muslim community to respect YOUR diverse beliefs?
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Queso
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:29 am



Quoting Kmh1956 (Reply 1):
If you had to move to a Muslim country with a small but devout Christian community, wouldn't you expect the Muslim community to respect YOUR diverse beliefs?

Hell no. I'd mind my own business and keep a low profile to respect THEIR beliefs.
 
Boeing744
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:39 am



Quoting Kmh1956 (Reply 1):
If the Bishop of Oxford is willing to embrace the culture and religious beliefs of the Muslim community and respect their rights to prayer, then who are we to criticize?

 checkmark 

I know from friends who lived in the UAE that the prayer calls can be quite annoying, but if I lived in Oxford I wouldn't oppose the principle. It's really no different than church bells ringing. When I lived in rural Austria they really annoyed me at first, but I got used to it.
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:42 am



Quoting Kmh1956 (Reply 1):
If the Bishop of Oxford is willing to embrace the culture and religious beliefs of the Muslim community and respect their rights to prayer, then who are we to criticize?

True, but I should think that the decision does not rest with him, it should rest with the local people - I'm sure not all of them wish to hear this thrice daily. Certainly I'm sure that it can be stopped very easily by legal action on the count that it's 'disrupting the peace' - I mean if farmers have to find ways of silencing their cockerels because they crow, then I'm sure such a case would be upheld.

I hope that this does not go ahead, because I agree that it is a step too far.


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Emirates773ER
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:12 am

I don't think calling out for prayers is a really good idea in a place dominated by non-muslims. Prayers are regularly called out in Birmingham, Manchester and some other big cities but only during 'social hours' at low volume if I remember correctly, but these places also have quite a heavy muslim population.
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comorin
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:32 am

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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:33 am



Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 5):
Prayers are regularly called out in Birmingham, Manchester and some other big cities but only during 'social hours' at low volume if I remember correctly, but these places also have quite a heavy muslim population.

They do indeed, but I have never heard them, and I have lived in one of the more ethnic areas of the city now for three years. I understood that it was only for special events that calls were broadcast.

Interesting that the ad on this page for non FC members is 'singlemuslim.com' - I hadn't realised before just how sensitive the ads were to the topic of the thread!


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LAXspotter
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:41 am

this is almost a non-issue, again the poster trying to show the rest of the world how evil these Muslims have become are trying to take over other's countries.



Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
Why is it always us

who is us? I tolerate Christians coming to my front door to preach, I refuse politely

Cflak, what do you do, type in Muslims in your news searches trying to show how Muslims are the scum of the earth?
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IFEMaster
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:48 am

Grew up in and graduated from Oxford. I'm against the daily calls to prayer. It goes against the tradition, culture, and history of a fine city. East Oxford has a very small Muslim population; this is a load of bollocks.

Quoting Kmh1956 (Reply 1):
If you had to move to a Muslim country with a small but devout Christian community, wouldn't you expect the Muslim community to respect YOUR diverse beliefs?

The difference is that nobody HAD to move from their country to England. They chose to. Thus, they chose the culture, tradition, and history. Now they want to change it. Not on.

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 3):
It's really no different than church bells ringing.

Except in Oxford, the bells that you hear ringing are mostly associated with traditional calls to students. For example, the 100 rings at 9pm - a tradition that goes back hundreds of years, has zero meaning, but is an endearing part of the city's history and is much loved my the students and locals alike.
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:54 am



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 9):
Thus, they chose the culture, tradition, and history. Now they want to change it. Not on.

if I'm not mistaken England just like the USA is a multicultural society which means each person has the right to maintain his or her own identity, I dont see how a simple Muslim call to prayer is tainting Oxford. A nearby Mosque to where I live has a call to prayer on Friday's and this place by no means is a majority Muslim place. India which has a minority muslim population of about 12% has call to prayer from Mosques and no one complains. I'm quite sure a lot of the Muslims who live in England now are not immigrants just like how many Muslims in america are Americans by birth.
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avt007
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:02 am

For years I woke to the call to prayers- the first one is about half an hour before sunrise, meaning about 4:30 in the summer- very annoying. But since I was working in a Muslim country, I kept quiet. But if it was tried in my home town, I be unhappy indeed.
 
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:05 am



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 10):

BTW, the only argument againt it which I find acceptable is the disturbance which it causes early in the morning which even I find annoying.
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IFEMaster
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:13 am



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 10):
I dont see how a simple Muslim call to prayer is tainting Oxford.

Have you ever been to Oxford? From your statement, I'm guessing not. It's a city steeped in deep history and tradition. The city has modernized, certainly, but most of the city, especially the traditions, haven't changed in centuries. Hearing a call to prayer in the city three times a day isn't tainting Oxford? I can guarantee you that anyone who has lived in or around Oxford will disagree and, knowing how the locals tend to defend the local culture and tradition, I won't be surprised if this gets met with strong public opposition.
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saxdiva
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:08 am

This might be beside the point, but is there some reason the city's Muslim's can't just wear wristwatches?
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:11 am



Quoting Saxdiva (Reply 14):
but is there some reason the city's Muslim's can't just wear wristwatches?

 rotfl   rotfl  , I never though of that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adhan
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:32 am

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
Why is it always us that have to "respect diversity" and nobody else?

"Us"
Come to India & watch how its done & BTW its a Democracy.
If you want to be a Democracy you need to respect every citizen & their Freedom.

I understand at times it can get into another persons privacy in such case politely convey the message.I really don't know hows its out there.There can be times when people are disturbed,But then there are solutions to tackle them.

regds
MEL

[Edited 2008-01-13 00:10:59]
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Pyrex
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:59 am

Sounds like just another step in the fight to transform our society into a more backwards, religious one. In a sense it is just like the Concorde being retired - the first time in history a faster means of transportation is replaced by a slower one, a more secular society is replaced by a more spiritual one...

Here at MIT, one of the bastions of technology and scientific reasoning with a long, long history of going against meaningless convention and tradition the admnistration just decided to nominate, for the first time in more than a century, a chaplain, paid out of the students tuition.
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:32 am

I am a graduate of Oxford and am also very much against the idea of daily calls to prayer.

Oxford has been formed by almost 1,000 years of history. It is a city of tradition and culture, and has both in bucket loads. Those factors, in addition to the natural beauty of the city, is why I believe it to be one of the loveliest cities in Europe.

Calls to prayer are not part of the Oxonion tradition and have no place as a mainstream part of the city until such time as they are. Oxford managed to get to where it is today largely without the influence of Islam.

By the way, it's not as if there aren't enough Mosques in Oxford. Just go to Cowley road and in some areas you may well think you're in Pakistan....
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RobertNL070
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:24 am



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 13):
Have you ever been to Oxford? [....]It's a city steeped in deep history and tradition

 checkmark  checkmark 

Indeed. But I think you are talking about the inner city. I very much doubt if muezzins calling Islamic congregants to prayer would be audible in the hallowed streets of the "city of dreaming spires". That would be heard in the not very historical and less traditional East Oxford.

Where I live, we have a sizeable Muslim population. The Muslims and The Hague city council have come to a compromise: the call to prayer can be broadcast before the important afternoon prayers on Friday. I can live with that.

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Analog
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:57 am



Quoting Saxdiva (Reply 14):
This might be beside the point, but is there some reason the city's Muslim's can't just wear wristwatches?

This seems to be a characteristic that Islam shares with many Christian faiths: an odd prohibition against portable timepieces.
 
N1120A
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:19 am



Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
I think this goes too far. In the rush to worship at the altar of "diversity", people are forgetting that England is historically NOT a muslim country, and this will serve as a daily reminder to local residents that Islam is indeed trying to impose itself.

So, Freedom of Speech and Religion go too far?

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
Not to mention that everyone knows how well tolerated a Christian church ringing its bells would be in most Muslim countries.

Ever been to Istanbul?

Quoting Queso (Reply 2):

Hell no. I'd mind my own business and keep a low profile to respect THEIR beliefs.

So, no Freedom of Religion or Speech for you either?

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 9):

The difference is that nobody HAD to move from their country to England. They chose to. Thus, they chose the culture, tradition, and history

They didn't choose a different religion, however.
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:26 am

This topic is also showing up in Switzerland in some places. My opinion is that calls to prayer, or anything "broadcasting out loud" having to do with religion (*including* Christian Church bells, btw) shouldn't be allowed.

There is freedom of religion, and I agree that Christians, Muslims, and everyone else, should be free to celebrate whatever they need to celebrate, inside their buildings. But the surroundings who don't have the same beliefs shouldn't have to endure listening to whatever they do, or to their calls. Just as I won't go around the streets shouting "Get a Mac, not a PC!", even if it's my belief  Wink

Anyway, in the country where I live, Church bells ring on Saturdays and Sundays. I understand that this is part of our country's traditions, and it's just the way it is (even if it can be annoying on Sunday mornings when you want to sleep). A muezzin calling out for prayers isn't part of our tradition, and I don't see why they should be allowed to do it, the same way I wouldn't support Christians ringing Church bells in an Islamic country.

I don't expect other people to support my view, but I will fight actively against other religions trying to impose their calls to prayer in our country, and I'm sure the people of Oxford will do the same.

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
The Bishop of Oxford has supported plans to broadcast the Islamic call to prayer over part of the historic city.

It's the people of Oxford who have to decide wether they want to support it or not, for sure it's not the Bishop.
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cfalk
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:23 pm



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 8):
Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
Why is it always us

who is us? I tolerate Christians coming to my front door to preach, I refuse politely

If a Muslim knocks on my door and starts talking to me about Mohhamed, I would do the same, but in Saudi Arabia or Iran, and many other countries, wearing so much as a cross around your neck in public could get you lynched.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 10):
if I'm not mistaken England just like the USA is a multicultural society

No, it is an British society that has decided not to suppress foreign influences. Which is fine. But Brits should not give everything up in the name of multiculturalism. British history is among the most rich and proud in the world.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 16):
Come to India & watch how its done & BTW its a Democracy.

I just came back from India - 2 weeks in and around Delhi. Yes it can be done, but you too are having some trouble with radicals as well.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
So, Freedom of Speech and Religion go too far?

Worship what they want but that doesn't mean they have to rub my nose in it. I've seen muslim services on British TV - that's fine, because I can switch channels. But if I have a mosque down the street I don't want to have to hear the caterwal every few hours. If I did, I would move to Cairo.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
Not to mention that everyone knows how well tolerated a Christian church ringing its bells would be in most Muslim countries.


Ever been to Istanbul?

Yes, many times. Note I said "MOST"

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
Quoting Queso (Reply 2):

Hell no. I'd mind my own business and keep a low profile to respect THEIR beliefs.


So, no Freedom of Religion or Speech for you either?

It means respecting the local customs and keeping your religion to yourself.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 9):

The difference is that nobody HAD to move from their country to England. They chose to. Thus, they chose the culture, tradition, and history

They didn't choose a different religion, however.

But they chose a different culture.
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kmh1956
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:53 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 23):
keeping your religion to yourself.

So according to that very small part of your argument alone, Christian church bells shouldn't be rung either.
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ltbewr
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:23 pm

And why should this be a problem? Indeed Oxford is a city that is of 'liberal' traditions that education encourages, to be tolarant of others and their beliefs. Yes, many are intolarant of Islam for various reasons, but to me the Bishop of Oxford is showing true Christian faith and of western liberalism as to supporting the Islamic calls to prayer in his region.
 
comorin
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:31 pm

I'm sure the sweet sound of Church Bells at 4 am in the morning would be just as annoying!

Remember the origins of Islam as a desert and tribal religion. Foot washing is a great idea in that part of the sandalled world. To bring it to the West (People of The Shoes) is backwardness masquerading as Religion. The Call to Prayer is beautiful where it is a part of local culture and tradition. It is no longer necessary - alarm clocks, email and radio can do the same. It's up to the people of Oxford to decide between nuisance and exotic tradition, not for Christian Soldiers across the pond.
 
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:35 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
Quoting Queso (Reply 2):

Hell no. I'd mind my own business and keep a low profile to respect THEIR beliefs.


So, no Freedom of Religion or Speech for you either?

If that "freedom" infringes on the greater peace of the community, no. It would be like me sticking a 400ft. cross on the top of Mt. Rushmore.
 
Analog
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:59 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 23):
It means respecting the local customs and keeping your religion to yourself.

Proselytism is required by some religions. So long as one does it respectfully and infrequently to any specific target, it's okay with me.
 
Pyrex
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:01 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
They didn't choose a different religion, however.

That has probably got to be the most wrong comment I have read in here in a while. All religions are a matter of personal choice, just as how intensely you decide to follow its "traditions" is.
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N1120A
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:11 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 23):

Worship what they want but that doesn't mean they have to rub my nose in it.

That isn't rubbing your nose in anything. Like said here, the church bells analogy is a perfect analogy.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 23):

It means respecting the local customs and keeping your religion to yourself.

Well then, do you support Christian evangelism?

Quoting Queso (Reply 27):

If that "freedom" infringes on the greater peace of the community, no.

I'll remember that the next time the NRA has a rally

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 29):

That has probably got to be the most wrong comment I have read in here in a while. All religions are a matter of personal choice, just as how intensely you decide to follow its "traditions" is.

Of course they are, as are what culture, tradition or history you choose to honor.
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cfalk
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:31 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
That isn't rubbing your nose in anything. Like said here, the church bells analogy is a perfect analogy.

Bells can mean a lot of things. Ever heard Big Ben? They can mark the time, or help celebrate events like marriages. But more importantly, they are a part of European tradition for many centuries. They belong here, just as the Islamic call to prayer belongs in Cairo.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
Well then, do you support Christian evangelism?

Not particularly, no.
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Banco
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:35 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
That isn't rubbing your nose in anything. Like said here, the church bells analogy is a perfect analogy.

Quite so. And the endless ringing of church bells for hours at a time is a bloody sight more annoying than a brief call from the muezzin.

Those of us who aren't religious at all find it rather hypocritical when objections like this are raised. Allow one, allow them all. Or ban the lot.

And incidentally, given that Britain really isn't a Christian country at all, but a de facto secular one, it smacks of a pretty primitive debate to have anyway.

Still, some progress. It seems fairly likely that the ludicrous law of blasphemy, that has been on the statute books for time immemorial, is quite likely to be repealed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7178439.stm
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fumanchewd
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:37 pm

Its funny how some on here demand that they not be bothered by recruiting christians but have no problem with the koran being read to an entire city over a loud speaker.

If people want to discuss religion, great. If I have to have it freaking blared to me over a loud speaker that is a problem.

A bell is a bell. Words from the koran are words from the koran. Big difference.
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N1120A
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:56 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 31):

Bells can mean a lot of things.

But from a church, we all know what they mean.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 31):
They belong here, just as the Islamic call to prayer belongs in Cairo.

So, one religion over another is your view?

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 31):

Not particularly, no.

So, I take it you don't support Catholic proselytizing?

Quoting Banco (Reply 32):

Still, some progress. It seems fairly likely that the ludicrous law of blasphemy, that has been on the statute books for time immemorial, is quite likely to be repealed.

As much as I love your little island, you guys are so funny sometimes  Silly

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 33):
Its funny how some on here demand that they not be bothered by recruiting christians but have no problem with the koran being read to an entire city over a loud speaker.

The Adhan's words aren't particularly religion specific, other than the reference to Mohammad being the messenger. Further, I wasn't stating that someone should be bothered by one and not the other. I was bringing up the comparison. I personally ignore both.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 33):

A bell is a bell. Words from the koran are words from the koran. Big difference.

A church bell is religious speech. The Adhan is religious speech. No difference.
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AsstChiefMark
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:08 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
But from a church, we all know what they mean.

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fumanchewd
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:11 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
The Adhan's words aren't particularly religion specific, other than the reference to Mohammad being the messenger. Further, I wasn't stating that someone should be bothered by one and not the other. I was bringing up the comparison. I personally ignore both.

BS. They are in Arabic and most contain phrases not contained in the torah or bible but only in the koran. According to this link..

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 15):
, I never though of that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adhan

[edit] Text (Sunni)
Recital Arabic Transliteration Translation
4x الله اكبر Allah u Akbar God is The Greatest*
2x اشهد ان لا اله الا الله Ash-hadu allā ilāha illallāh I bear witness that there is no lord except God
2x اشهد ان محمدا رسول الله Ash-hadu anna Muhammadan rasūlullāh I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of God
2x حي على الصلاة Hayya 'alas-salāt Make haste towards prayer
2x حي على الفلاح Hayya 'alal-falāh Make haste towards welfare [success]
2x الصلاة خير من النوم** Aṣ-ṣalātu khayru min an-naūm** Prayer is better than sleep **
2x الله اكبر Allah u akbar God is greatest
1x لا اله الا الله Lā ilāha illallāh There is no lord except God

* Followers of the Maliki madhab say this line twice instead of four times.

** The line "Prayer is better than sleep" is used only for the first prayers of the day at dawn (fajr salat).


[edit] Text (Shia)
Recital Arabic Transliteration Translation
4x الله اكبر Allah u Akbar God is the Greatest
2x اشهد ان لا اله الا الله Ash-hadu allā ilāha illallāh I bear witness that there is no lord except God
2x اشهد ان محمدا رسول الله Ash-hadu anna Muhammadan rasūlullāh I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of God
2x اشهد ان عليا ولي الله Ash'hadu anna 'alīyan walī'ul-lāh "I bear witness that Ali is the vicegerent of God"
2x حي على الصلاة Hayya 'alas-salāt Make haste towards prayer
2x حي على الفلاح Hayya 'alal-falāh Make haste towards welfare
2x حي علی خير العمل Hayya 'alā Khair al-'amal Make haste towards the best thing
2x الله اكبر Allah u Akbar God is the Greatest
2x لا اله الا الله Lā ilāha illallāh There is no Lord except God

According to Shi'a scholars, "Ashhadu ana Alian waliullah" ("I testify that Ali is the associate of God") is not a part of Adhan and Iqamah but it is recommended (Mustahab) to say that.[1]


Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
A church bell is religious speech.

That's absolutely ridiculous. Equating a bell (a musical instrument) to words of the koran is equally as ridiculous. A bell is not a religious message while the Adhan is.

Both yourself and I would both have problems with phrases of the bible or torah read over loudspeakers in my neighborhood. Bells have been used for a multitude of purposes (time keeping, warning of attack, commerorating the dead, etc.) and the Adhan has one purpose.

[Edited 2008-01-13 12:41:34]
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avt007
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:17 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
Well then, do you support Christian evangelism?

Respecting the local customs does not mean you have to support them. When I was in a Muslim country, I respected their religion by not complaining about the early morning calls. That does not mean I "support" Islam. And frankly, if my local church decided they wanted to put up a loudspeaker and call everyone to Mass, I wouldn't be happy about that, either. A good compromise here may be that they could have the call to prayers, as it would have been done in Mohammed's day- without loudspeakers.
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:23 pm



Quoting Avt007 (Reply 37):
A good compromise here may be that they could have the call to prayers, as it would have been done in Mohammed's day- without loudspeakers.

There you go. How about a bell?  Smile

No koran would be read and it is equivalent to the churches.

Fair enough.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
mandala499
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:33 pm

All I can say to this one is... "What the...?"
While it is good on one side to have diversity and enjoy it, on the other side, if this is not done correctly, it can lead to problems down the line.

On one hand I am happy this is being suggested, on the other, I am worried that Oxford will end up as the front line in petty religious issues as a result. I agree with both Bishop Pritchard and Bishop Nazir-Ali (strange huh?). This needs to be carefully regulated in order to prevent this being an excuse to open the floodgates to requests of the Muslim communities in non-Muslim countries, to become demands under the claim of "it is our right to do so."

Where I am, the loudest Adhans are the 1st one of the day... not because everything else is quiet, but because it IS the loudest. I can barely hear the noon and afternoon prayer calls... but that 4am one... *yikes*

What next? Blaring prayers over the megaphones on the English countryside?

There needs to be a volume monitor as well as other measures to prevent abuse on this if it's gonna be done right... otherwise, scrap the plan !

We Muslims don't have to have it our way over others all the time! In Bali, prayer calls are regulated after concerns of religious problems, because the Balinese Hindus holiest day of the year is the "Nyepi", ie: Quiet day... which is like the strictest Sabbath, but this is from the sundown, to the next sundown, to the next sunrise. No prayer calls allowed from Mosques during that time, no church bells... heck, U can be arrested for honking! LOL. So one day, Eid happened on the same day as Nyepi... in the end, everyone agreed that it's best to respect the requirements of the majority on the island.

Our cathedral is across the street from our national mosque. This being a Muslim majority country, the cathedral's bells can only be rung on significant days of the catholic calendar. So, I don't expect Adhans in Oxford to go on unregulated.

There's a thin difference between enjoying diversity and having it shoved down one's throat. Looks like my concern years back of the UK becoming the Great Islamic Republic of Britain is still valid, albeit not a significant one.

Is Bishop Pritchard playing foolish PR on this?
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Pyrex
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:50 pm



Quoting Banco (Reply 32):
given that Britain really isn't a Christian country at all

Given the fact that the Head of State is the head of the Church of England as well, and that to aspire to become the head of state you have to profess a specific religion that statement is really up to debate.
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IFEMaster
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:19 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
They didn't choose a different religion, however.

That's completely irrelevant. I couldn't give damn whether the call to prayer was for Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Hare Krishnas, or those from The Church of Religious Consciousness. ANY blaring call to prayer will negatively affect the feel and culture of the city.
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halls120
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:25 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 33):

A bell is a bell. Words from the koran are words from the koran. Big difference.

A church bell is religious speech.

It is? Somebody better tell the Supreme Court.

Quote:
The Milford Central School has invited the public to use its facilities for educational and recreational purposes, but not for “religious purposes.” Speech for “religious purposes” may reasonably be understood to encompass three different categories. First, there is religious speech that is simply speech about a particular topic from a religious point of view. The film in Lamb's Chapel v. Center Moriches Union Free School Dist., 508 U.S. 384, 113 S.Ct. 2141, 124 L.Ed.2d 352 (1993), illustrates this category. See id., at 388, 113 S.Ct. 2141 (observing that the film series at issue in that case “would discuss Dr. [James] Dobson's views on the undermining influences of the media that could only be counterbalanced by returning to traditional, Christian family values instilled at an early stage”). Second, there is religious speech that amounts to worship, or its equivalent. Our decision in Widmar v. Vincent, 454 U.S. 263, 102 S.Ct. 269, 70 L.Ed.2d 440 (1981), concerned such speech. See id., at 264-265, 102 S.Ct. 269 (describing the speech in question as involving “religious worship”). Third, there is an intermediate category that is aimed principally at proselytizing or inculcating belief in a particular religious faith.

Good News Club v. Milford Central School, 533 U.S. 98, 121 S.Ct. 2093 U.S.,2001.

So which category does a bell fall into?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:40 am



Quoting Kmh1956 (Reply 1):
If you had to move to a Muslim country with a small but devout Christian community, wouldn't you expect the Muslim community to respect YOUR diverse beliefs?

Not likely. I'd either keep my clapper shut or expect fierce replies, at the least.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 10):
if I'm not mistaken England just like the USA is a multicultural society which means each person has the right to maintain his or her own identity

I'm not exactly how sure the UK parallels the US, but change comes in society when individuals band together to effect it, mainly where they live - in this case, Oxford. Change is resisted in society when other individuals group together and successfully repel the change brought by the aforementioned. Assuming both have the same freedom of speech, it's not wrong for the majority's opinion to continue as the status quo even if the feelings of the minority get hurt.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 16):
But then there are solutions to tackle them.

What, in your opinion, would some of those be?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 9):

The difference is that nobody HAD to move from their country to England. They chose to. Thus, they chose the culture, tradition, and history

They didn't choose a different religion, however.

And religions has no right to infringe on the customs of others, if the others lawfully suppress change. Often, it seems, the law may be changed in favor of the minority simply to keep their feelings from getting hurt.
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Analog
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:42 am



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 42):


Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 33):

A bell is a bell. Words from the koran are words from the koran. Big difference.

A church bell is religious speech.

It is? Somebody better tell the Supreme Court.

As much as I detest church bells (we have magic devices called watches, pagers and telephones that can be used to delineate time and call people to church), has the US Supreme Court ever ruled that church bells are not religious speech? I really hope they have, but I'd be slightly surprised by it.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:17 am



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 43):
What, in your opinion, would some of those be

Meet up with the leaders of the communities concerned & reach a common ground.It happens out here.

regds
MEL
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Banco
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:20 am



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 40):
Quoting Banco (Reply 32):
given that Britain really isn't a Christian country at all

Given the fact that the Head of State is the head of the Church of England as well, and that to aspire to become the head of state you have to profess a specific religion that statement is really up to debate.

Not really. The opponents of disestablismentarianism include virtually all other religions, who like the idea of a spiritual part of the constitution, particularly one that bends over backwards to accommodate anything and everything. The C of E is unlike any other state religion in the world, it sits in the background and is safely ignored by just about everyone.

Most of the requirements for the C of E are historical rather than real. Perhaps one of the best illustrations of the public attitude to it came over 150 years ago when future Prime Minister Viccount Melbourne remarked "Things have come to a pretty pass when religion is allowed to invade the sphere of private life!".

Britain is essentially secular. There are more practising Catholics in the country than there are Anglicans. People put C of E on the census, but the vast majority pay virtually no attention to it. It is quite possibly the least religious country on earth. On the whole, people here greatly dislike overt religiosity, and distrust it.

To identify the C of E and presume that the country is religious is a great mistake.
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halls120
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:16 pm



Quoting Analog (Reply 44):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 42):


Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 33):

A bell is a bell. Words from the koran are words from the koran. Big difference.

A church bell is religious speech.

It is? Somebody better tell the Supreme Court.


As much as I detest church bells (we have magic devices called watches, pagers and telephones that can be used to delineate time and call people to church), has the US Supreme Court ever ruled that church bells are not religious speech? I really hope they have, but I'd be slightly surprised by it.

I don't believe the Supreme Court has ever ruled on the issue of whether ringing church bells is or is not "religious speech." Which is why I challenged the OP's that bells = a vocal call to prayer.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
kmh1956
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:24 pm

And religious intolerance is alive and well....on A.net......
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:05 pm



Quoting Banco (Reply 46):
It is quite possibly the least religious country on earth.

According to the most recent relevant Eurostat Eurobarometer poll, in 2005, 52% of European Union citizens responded that "they believe there is a God", whereas 27% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" and 18% that "they do not believe there is a spirit, God, nor life force". Results were widely varied between different countries, with 95% of Maltese respondents stating that they believe in God, on the one end, and only 16% of Estonians stating the same on the other.[10] Several studies have found Sweden to be one of the most secular countries in the world. According to Davie (1999), 85% of Swedes do not believe in God.[11] In the Eurostat survey, 23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a God", whereas 53% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" and 23% that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force". This, according to the survey, would make Swedes the third least religious people in the 25-member European Union, after Estonia and the Czech Republic. In 2001, the Czech Statistical Office provided census information on the ten million people in the Czech Republic. 59% had no religion, 32.2% were religious, and 8.8% did not answer.

The percentage of people in European countries who said in 2005 that they "believe there is a God".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Europe_belief_in_god_upd.png

Quoting Banco (Reply 46):
On the whole, people here greatly dislike overt religiosity, and distrust it.

Then I'm sure they will just looove the muezzins screaming over the English countryside. Islamization of UK is well on it's way.

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