EvilForce
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Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:28 pm

In the New York Times today, they have started a series of articles on the issues our veteran's face post deployment. Here's a quick excerpt from the 7 page story located here: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/us/13vets.html?pagewanted=1&hp

Quote:
The New York Times found 121 cases in which veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan committed a killing in this country, or were charged with one, after their return from war.

Of those murder cases the breakdown is as follows:

Quote:
Three-quarters of these veterans were still in the military at the time of the killing. More than half the killings involved guns, and the rest were stabbings, beatings, strangulations and bathtub drownings. Twenty-five offenders faced murder, manslaughter or homicide charges for fatal car crashes resulting from drunken, reckless or suicidal driving.

About a third of the victims were spouses, girlfriends, children or other relatives, among them 2-year-old Krisiauna Calaira Lewis, whose 20-year-old father slammed her against a wall when he was recuperating in Texas from a bombing near Falluja that blew off his foot and shook up his brain.

A quarter of the victims were fellow service members, including Specialist Richard Davis of the Army, who was stabbed repeatedly and then set ablaze, his body hidden in the woods by fellow soldiers a day after they all returned from Iraq. And the rest were acquaintances or strangers...

The article discusses how our soldiers who have been deployed for far longer than former troops receive little to no mental health help whatsoever upon return. All of this happening too while Walter Reed Veterans hospital was turning a blind eye to the suffering of its patients. Are we really "supporting our troops", or is it just a bumper sticker slogan? It's pretty clear to me that many of these guys are suffering. I have 2 friends that have returned from Iraq changed people. Why do you think soldiers are coming home and killing like this?

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fumanchewd
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:45 pm

Well, when you have hundreds of thousands of armed men in a violent and extremely tense environment for a year or more on end, I would suspect that a percentage could be a little highstrung on return.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:45 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Thread starter):
Are we really "supporting our troops", or is it just a bumper sticker slogan?

What have you done for the American Soldier today? This week? Last month?

When we get past that, then maybe this thread will warrant a response.

Quoting EvilForce (Thread starter):
It's pretty clear to me that many of these guys are suffering

Suffering what? Your two friends or everyone? You are somehow qualified to make this call?

Quoting EvilForce (Thread starter):
New York Times

 sarcastic 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
EvilForce
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:53 pm



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
What have you done for the American Soldier today? This week? Last month?

Since you are such a nice guy about it  Yeah sure I'll say that today, I'm bringing this to the attention of others who just might talk about it with their friends and/or relatives.

Last month I volunteered at the local Veteran's Hospital for 2 days over the Christmas break. Some of the things I saw prompted me to write a letter to my respective Congressan & Senators. I've volunteered before as well and contribute what I can to a local charity that supports the families of deployed soldiers.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
Suffering what? Your two friends or everyone? You are somehow qualified to make this call?

I said many, not all. I said 2 of my friends were changed people. I've known and met far more than that which led me to my statement of opinion.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
When we get past that, then maybe this thread will warrant a response.

Excellent. Please be careful you don't sprain an ankle when dismounting off your high horse. Perhaps you'll grace us with a response.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
RacingGreen07
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:59 pm

I think perhaps there may be psychological reasons behind these killings.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 1):
Well, when you have hundreds of thousands of armed men in a violent and extremely tense environment for a year or more on end

Perhaps those particular soldiers didn't have proper post psychological evaluations completed which would of discovered symptoms of violence or rage. Or there seething rages were hard to detect at the time...

Perhaps it was the fact that these soldiers were kept in a war (violent, dirty and grim) setting for such an extended period of time without a break.

I'm pretty sure the US has a system in place where psychologists and post-war support for these veterans is readily available without cost. Please enlighten me...

On the flip side, look how many veterans are coming back (after a year or longer) to the United States and living happily with their families (some of them members on A-net) DESPITE being in a war setting with guns, bombs and dead body parts strewn across the ground. You don't see them going out on murderous rampages. I think they have coped very very well either because they are sane or because they received the right psychological support when they needed it.

Personally, I don't think I could go through such psychological torture....but then again you never know until your in that situation.

Regards
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EvilForce
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:05 pm



Quoting RacingGreen07 (Reply 4):
On the flip side, look how many veterans are coming back (after a year or longer) to the United States and living happily with their families (some of them members on A-net) DESPITE being in a war setting with guns, bombs and dead body parts strewn across the ground. You don't see them going out on murderous rampages. I think they have coped very very well either because they are sane or because they received the right psychological support when they needed it.

You make a very good point. Obviously the vast majority aren't coming home and having this meltdown. I think these murders are good indicators that a lot of veterans aren't getting the mental help they need. Granted most won't murder but are they having hard times coping with violent behavior, drug addiction, PTSD, and other issues? Should we be doing more to make sure these vets are "ok" mentally and emotionally after rotation?
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ShyFlyer
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:12 pm



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 1):
Well, when you have hundreds of thousands of armed men in a violent and extremely tense environment for a year or more on end, I would suspect that a percentage could be a little highstrung on return.

Exactly. There was a series on the Discovery Military channel some time ago (I forget the name) that followed the members of an Arkansas Army National Guard unit from pre-deployment all the way until after thier return home. On of the soldiers mention that even after being home for a while, something as simple as someone standing beside the road as he was driving around town made him very nervous.

I don't remember any of the post deployment counseling being shown, save for a presentation to the troops along the lines of "if you need to talk, here's a phone number to call." The impression I was left with was that post deployment counseling for our troops is virtually non-existent. I hope I'm wrong about that.
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RacingGreen07
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:28 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 5):
Granted most won't murder but are they having hard times coping with violent behavior, drug addiction, PTSD, and other issues? Should we be doing more to make sure these vets are "ok" mentally and emotionally after rotation?

Well, in my personal opinion, I believe that we should be doing more to help veterans cope with their life post-war....

I don't know if I remember correctly but such programmes outlined by yourself (veteran support etc etc.) have been implemented within the United States. But my memory is a little bit vague on that one.

I also think that the general population of the United States would like to see after care for veterans. Because if they can support their troops during the war, surely they can support the same troops AFTER the war. But if they can't support their troops after the war then you are correct in saying that a bumper sticker saying "we support the troops" is just a bumper sticker and means nothing...

It's a fact, war does change people, its not your average 9-5 office day. These troops aren't robots, they are humans and therefore will suffer great mental trauma as a result of what they see and do in Iraq, Afghanistan or whatver country they are fighting in and as a result they need care when they get back or else they'll fall apart mentally..

Regards.
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JRadier
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:29 pm



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):

What have you done for the American Soldier today? This week? Last month?

Besides being a complete fallacy, what does this matter? He asked if you (as Americans) really 'support your troops' or if it's just a claim. What does that have to do what he has done for the American Soldier and why should that limit your involvement in this discussion? I for one haven't done a thing for the American Soldier (perhaps gave the US some tax dollars that might go to the troops) or for the Dutch. Does that make me less of a person?
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cfalk
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:35 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Thread starter):
In the New York Times today, they have started a series of articles on the issues our veteran's face post deployment. Here's a quick excerpt from the 7 page story located here: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/us/13vets.html?pagewanted=1&hp

Quote:
The New York Times found 121 cases in which veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan committed a killing in this country, or were charged with one, after their return from war.



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 1):
Well, when you have hundreds of thousands of armed men in a violent and extremely tense environment for a year or more on end, I would suspect that a percentage could be a little highstrung on return.

This is typical, NYT putting stuff out as a "story", which really isn't.

Quote:
From the October 1, 2001 start of the Afghanistan war, that's about 26,000 troops/month. To date (Jan 2008) that would give about 1.99 million.

That means that the NY Times 121 murders represent about a 7.08/100,000 rate.

Now the numbers on deployed troops are probably high - fewer troops from 2001 - 2003; I'd love a better number if someone has it.

But for initial purposes, let's call the rate 10/100,000, about 40% higher than the calculated one.

Now, how does that compare with the population as a whole?

Turning to the DoJ statistics, we see that the US offender rate for homicide in the 18 - 24 yo range is 26.5/100,000.For 25 - 34, it's 13.5/100,000.

See the problem?

So the rate of murders committed by returning troops is anywhere from one half to a quarter of what it is for the general population.

NYT didn't mention that, eh? Wonder why...

http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/the_media_does_it_again.php

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/homtrnd.htm
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yowza
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:40 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 3):

Excellent. Please be careful you don't sprain an ankle when dismounting off your high horse. Perhaps you'll grace us with a response.

classic!

I was going to start a thread about gangs in the military after seeing a report on TV (I bring that up because killings and gangs seem to go hand in hand) but I refrained from doing so because I knew that even just starting the thread would draw the ire of the military/far right contingent. Who would then do the following:

-Question what I had done for the military or had ever served.
-Discredit the source
-Question my motivation behind bringing up the topic.

This happens without fail in every US military thread.

As for the topic at hand, high stress for relatively low pay will screw people up irrespective of their profession.

YOWza
 
EvilForce
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:42 pm

The Times stated that the basis for the article was the fact that the murder rate committed by vets/soldiers increased 89% during this "War on Terror" period. It stated as its disclaimer on page 2 of the story:

Quote:
This reporting most likely uncovered only the minimum number of such cases, given that not all killings, especially in big cities and on military bases, are reported publicly or in detail. Also, it was often not possible to determine the deployment history of other service members arrested on homicide charges.

The Times used the same methods to research homicides involving all active-duty military personnel and new veterans for the six years before and after the present wartime period began with the invasion of Afghanistan in 2001.

This showed an 89 percent increase during the present wartime period, to 349 cases from 184, about three-quarters of which involved Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans. The increase occurred even though there have been fewer troops stationed in the United States in the last six years and the American homicide rate has been, on average, lower.

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fumanchewd
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:48 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 9):
So the rate of murders committed by returning troops is anywhere from one half to a quarter of what it is for the general population.

Good point. But, out of (I am pulling this out of my a$$) 500,000 troops, 121 killings does seem to be a large number for a city of comparable size. Correct me if I'm wrong. But even in a city of 1 million that would seem to be high.

I think that this is nothing new or shocking though. This isn't a new syndrome. Its been documented since WWI and has been around much longer than that.

I agree that we should insure that our troops are mentally fit upon return, but I don't think that it is plausible to expect the numbers to be anywhere near 0.

After all, war is hell (so I've been told).
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EvilForce
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:48 pm



Quoting YOWza (Reply 10):
This happens without fail in every US military thread.

Oh? I've only recently started posting / reading in the non-av section so didn't realize that. I used to only post on the civilian av section.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 10):
As for the topic at hand, high stress for relatively low pay will screw people up irrespective of their profession.

I think it would be interesting to see how the deployed folks of firms like Blackwater do upon return. I'm not sure if pay would affect you one way or the other regarding mental health, but I suppose its possible. I wonder if the Blackwater type firms have a more rigorous mental health evaluation? Not sure what kind of health insurance those firms have for their employees. Anyone have any experience with this?
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cfalk
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:53 pm



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 12):
Good point. But, out of (I am pulling this out of my a$$) 500,000 troops, 121 killings does seem to be a large number for a city of comparable size

If you read the article I linked, you'll see that we passed the 1 million mark back in 2005.

And as discussed, the RATE is significantly lower than the general population in the 18-34 age range, indicating that veterans have a BETTER ability than the rest of us to control themselves.
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MDorBust
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:56 pm

Does anyone have a comparative anlysis to compare the rates of incidents amongst returning soldiers to that of incidents amongst the general populace? No of course not. That uncover the fear mongering on the part of the Times


General population: 299,398,484
General population murders 17,034
The general population murder rate 5.7

Pretty straight forward. However, here's where things get sideways.

Soldier population in Iraq/Afghanistan: 200,000
Soldier related Murders 79
Soldier murder rate 39.5

Seems shocking right? Higher than even DCs crazy murder rate? Or is it? No, it's not. That's just the troops IN theater. It doesn't count troops who have rotated through. If we add in all the guys who have rotated in and out of theater we get more than half a million soliders.

Soldier murder rate now at: 15.8

Still scary high right? Well, no. The study sample of soldier murders is flawed in that it takes all samples of murderds by returning soldiers since the war started, not just an annual sample like a proper crime study does.. so it's inflated. That's four years of crimes... so 79/4= 19.75 homicides annually. A murder rate of 3.95 for veteran soldiers. Lower than the general population murder rate by almost two full points.

Yes, soldiers coming back from a war zone have problems that need dealing with, and our government is doing (and has always done) a pretty shitty job of it. To pretend it's a crime issue though, is pure BS.
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JRadier
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:00 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 15):
Does anyone have a comparative anlysis to compare the rates of incidents amongst returning soldiers to that of incidents amongst the general populace? No of course not.

You might want to read reply 9 and rethink that comment  Wink.
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EvilForce
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:03 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 14):
And as discussed, the RATE is significantly lower than the general population

But the general population has repeat offenders, previous felons, and other criminals that the military doesn't allow amongst its ranks.

It's like saying employees of airlines who have undergone full FAA background/security checks are less likely than the general public to murder someone. Apples and oranges.

As I pointed out the murder rate within the group itself rose 89% vs. the same period of time otherwise.
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MDorBust
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:04 pm



Quoting JRadier (Reply 16):
You might want to read reply 9 and rethink that comment .

Hey, you gotta give me some time to type up my replies. I actually stop and take time to do the proper research and math...  Wink
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
JRadier
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:07 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 18):
Hey, you gotta give me some time to type up my replies. I actually stop and take time to do the proper research and math... Wink

Age: 26-35
You're just getting old. You had 21 minutes  Wink.
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MDorBust
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:07 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 17):
As I pointed out the murder rate within the group itself rose 89% vs. the same period of time otherwise.

Not definatively. The Times, by it's own admission did research by delving through newspapers for headlines. Awfully odd method considering the information they wanted could easily have been gained on request from the DoD. Yes, convictions are available under FOIA requests. Now why wouldn't the Times want that rock solid information?
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EvilForce
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:11 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 20):
Not definatively. The Times, by it's own admission did research by delving through newspapers for headlines. Awfully odd method considering the information they wanted could easily have been gained on request from the DoD. Yes, convictions are available under FOIA requests. Now why wouldn't the Times want that rock solid information?

Did you read the NYT article? It said:

Quote:
To compile and analyze its list, The Times conducted a search of local news reports, examined police, court and military records and interviewed the defendants, their lawyers and families, the victims’ families and military and law enforcement officials.

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MDorBust
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:15 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 21):
Did you read the NYT article? It said:

Yes I did. And no where in there does it say they ever saw any DoD convictions fiqures.

Do not assume that "examined.. military records" refers specifically to military justice files. It could just as easily refer to discharge papers, enlistment papers, or a request for GI issue whity tighties. The way the article was written clearly indicates that the Times had to compile thier fiqures from multiple sources instead of going directly to the definative source.
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EvilForce
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:20 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 22):
The way the article was written clearly indicates that the Times had to compile thier fiqures from multiple sources instead of going directly to the definative source.

Maybe the reporter didn't want to exclusively rely on the use the DoD records. Besides the 121 are actual, confirmed cases. As it said that number is quite likely to be higher, and perhaps much higher.

The thing is the reporter is trying to put a human face on a problem. If the murder rate was 321 people, or 221, or 121, or 21 the question I asked is still valid. Are we doing enough to "support our troops", and their respective mental and emotional health issues upon their return home? Should we be doing more? Can we help prevent more of these murders?
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
MDorBust
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:24 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 23):
Maybe the reporter didn't want to exclusively rely on the use the DoD records.

My bet is that they didn't actually have any DoD justice records or they would have directly mentioned them, much less referanced them at some point.

This report was straight from the Department of Pulling Numbers Out Of Our Bums.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 23):
Are we doing enough to "support our troops", and their respective mental and emotional health issues upon their return home?

Not by pretending that they are a criminal threat as the Times has just done...

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 23):
Can we help prevent more of these murders?

And you just did.

What part of them having a lower murder rate than the average citizen is bad to you?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
skyservice_330
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:25 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 15):
Yes, soldiers coming back from a war zone have problems that need dealing with, and our government is doing (and has always done) a pretty shitty job of it. To pretend it's a crime issue though, is pure BS.

You're right, it isn't a crime. That said, it is still awful that men and women put their life on the lines for their country and suffer personally/mentally as a result and the country they served for does a, as you put it, "shitty job" of helping them deal with their "issues."

Of any government employee, military personnel should be at the top of the list for benefits relating to work related issues.
 
EvilForce
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:42 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 24):
Not by pretending that they are a criminal threat as the Times has just done...

They are pointing out that these people need help. The article mentioned the problems we suffered by ignoring the mental health of the vets from Vietnam.

Do you disbelieve any of the facts the NYT has presented? Perhaps a recap from the U.S. Department of Defense's Task Force on Mental Health would convince you there is a problem? The DoD's task force said:

Quote:
An estimated 50% of the returning National Guard members, 38 percent of soldiers and 31 percent of marines reporting mental health problems, according to a Pentagon task force.

Significant findings include:

1.) Mental health care stigma remains pervasive and is a significant barrier to care.
2.) Mental health professionals are not sufficiently accessible to service members and their families.
3.) There are significant gaps in the continuum of care for psychological health.
4.) The military system does not have enough resources, funding or personnel to adequately support the psychological health of service members and their families in peace and during conflict.

http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=11015
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greasespot
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:46 pm

I read the article and I did not see it as "returnig vets are criminals" I read it as "perhaps with more resources avaliable to the vets maybe 121 of them would not be dead/facing jail/ or in jail for murder".

Maybe, i know it cannot be proven, but the military sent them to war. Now the military, the people in general OWE them the resources to make sure that they are not coming back volitile and ready to explode.

Is there an easy fix? Who knows. But on the other hand..

Maybe because there are some programs avaliable there are ONLY 121 people facing murder charges or dead...Maybe this is the best that can be expected that due to the horrrors of war some people are going to come back unable to be repaired psychologically.

(notice the excelent way I sat on the fence  Smile ).


I know a Canadian Soldier who was in Khandahar at the beginning. This person came back "fucked up" . there is no other term for it. The only thing that I believe saved his life is his wife is a cop in Toronto and she was able to get him the outside help that he required...

Gs
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
skyservice_330
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:55 pm



Quoting Greasespot (Reply 27):
I did not see it as "returnig vets are criminals" I read it as "perhaps with more resources avaliable to the vets maybe 121 of them would not be dead/facing jail/ or in jail for murder".

 checkmark  Thats how I read it. The article is raising the fact that there is a group of people committing crimes that are, essentially, preventable if the government would initiate the necessary preventative measures, like proper mental health care.
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:56 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 14):
And as discussed, the RATE is significantly lower than the general population in the 18-34 age range, indicating that veterans have a BETTER ability than the rest of us to control themselves.

With all due respect, that is an unfounded supposition from these numbers.

I don't think that this article means anything, I think we should be proud of veterans. But I doubt that 121 murders among 1 million is any better than civilians.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 14):
indicating that veterans have a BETTER ability than the rest of us to control themselves.

To balance your bias, we could discuss certain Marines hiding out in North Carolina.

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 27):
I know a Canadian Soldier who was in Khandahar at the beginning. This person came back "fucked up" . there is no other term for it

Thats correct. These guys aren't superheros. They come back needing some help. What's the problam Cfalk?
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
wrighbrothers
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:00 pm

Well, people react to war in one way or another, it's just that people react to it differently.

Some come back from it dissilusioned with the world and life in general.

Some come back so mentaly scared that they can't cope with normal life, they've simply seen so many horrible things and been under certain way of living for so long, that their minds can't re-adjusted to a life where they aren't on full alert 24/7, where not every object on the side of the road is an IED and not every person is the enemy. It's almost as if their mind adjusted to 'war mode' but can't switch back to 'normal mode'. These are the ones who need the most care and attention.

Some however, see it as a positive experiance, it makes them more thankful for what they have, and having basic things like water, shelter, air-conditioning etc.

So it doesn't surprise me that ex-veterans have come back and killed, it's what they are trained to do, and went out to war and no doubt had to do, so they come back and we somehow expect them just to re-adjust to normal civilian life,having your mates blood and guts sprayed at you isn't the same as an average day at the office and sometimes the mind can do strange things, in a way, it wasn't them that killed, it was something that had taken control of them and ripped 'them' out of the body after the war. As I said, was is a life changing experiance one way or another, just because one guy comes back perfectly normal doesn't mean everyone will.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:28 am

After every war there are veterans, who can't fit into civilian society. Sometimes there are outlets, like e.g. after WW2 many German veterans joined the French Foreign Legion (a big part of the Legionaries fighting in the French Vietnam War were Germans), but if you look back into the late 1940s and also the 1920s, ALL involved countries had a problem with criminal gangs made up out of former soldiers, who brought home "souvenier" weapons.
Hell, just look back at the gangs, which terrorised the American west after the civil war, like the Jesse James gang.

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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:36 am

121 out of how many deployed since.. 2003?

Seems like a pretty useless statistic. There have probably been 121 cases of UPS drivers flipping their lid and killing their wife or another family member- and there are a lot fewer UPS drivers.
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:24 pm



Quoting Captoveur (Reply 32):
Seems like a pretty useless statistic.

Perhaps, but I think you missed the point. If there had been a sudden increase in murder of 89% committed by UPS drivers don't you think that would indicate a problem?

I find it interesting that the only disagreements people had with this was to attack the source or discredit me. Not a single person said they think that the military is doing a great job of reintegrating the troops back into American society. Not a single person said they themselves felt that they got the help they needed post Iraq rotation. No one provided any links or articles on the resources the military devotes to veterans post-rotation. Why is that?

Are we as a country really putting our money where our mouth is when we say "support our troops" when there is evidence that we as a country are doing a piss poor job of ACTUALLY supporting our troops once they come home? Our soldiers have died in Iraq and Afghanistan, and that's tragic. But we also have tens of thousands of maimed, and disabled we need to care for as well. We asked these men and women to put their lives on the line, we need to make sure we are doing everything we can to help them rebuild their lives.
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:33 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 33):
Perhaps, but I think you missed the point. If there had been a sudden increase in murder of 89% committed by UPS drivers don't you think that would indicate a problem?

There is still no support anywhere for the 98% increase figure.

Even if it is true (which I highly doubt) then it's an increase in homicides from 10.4 per year to 19.7. Given the population sample, and increase of nine homicides is a statistical blip.
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:40 pm



Quoting YOWza (Reply 10):
I was going to start a thread about gangs in the military after seeing a report on TV

That's an interesting subject. Do you mean gangs formed later in the war zone?
There's a video showing some USMC soldiers, mostly black, smashing an Iraq cab with their Tank. I read somewhere that those soldiers were in fact members of a gang back in the US that ended up serving together in the same division....i can't believe shit like that would be accepted by the Corps, but the guys on the vid actually displayed some "gangish" body language.
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:41 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 34):
There is still no support anywhere for the 98% increase figure.

It's 89%, not 98%, and the support is in reply 11. It's straight from the article.
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:44 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Thread starter):

Well, judging by the map, looks like soldiers from West Texas are some of the most well-adjusted. Maybe it's because we really appreciate our soldiers here and we let them know it! http://www.odessawelcomehome.zoomshare.com/
 
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:44 pm



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 36):
It's straight from the article.

Which has already been shown to be BS...
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:31 pm



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 36):
It's 89%, not 98%,

Typo on my part. I used 89% in the calculations then mistyped it in my post.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 36):
It's straight from the article.

Because it is in the article, does not make it true. Especially for articles in the Times. The number is completely unsupported.
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:39 pm

It is a very narrow group to have such a high rate of murder, especially as to family members, and much higher that other groups of soldiers since the Vietnam War era. I would suggest that the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan these soldiers faced and upon their return home may be factors, including:
They are organized, uniformed soldiers fighting civilians, including women and children - not uniformed soldiers.
They are attacked at what seems to be random, not in organized battles.
You are at hair trigger at all times outside of certain secure areas. That can cause very long term mental health changes.
Often the enemy had killed or maimed our uniformed soldiers uses IED's and other remote devices or suicide bombs, not conventional guns or like weapons
Questions of the why this war (especially in Iraq). This has been made worse by beiefs that the reasoning used to justify going into Iraq
Questions as to how this war is conducted. Many soldiers thought they would be going after al-Queda, not a wide range of people unrelated to 9/11.
War front involving disorganized governance, including tribal societies and religion unfamiliar to many in the USA.
Their being deployed in places where Americans are not wanted and indeed hated for being there.
Terrible decisions and poor discipline allowing the attacks of prisoners in Abu Garath prison, the existence of Gitmo prison, the well known actions of 'black prisions' and torture of alleged enemies, and of innocents.
A lack of 'decompressinon' time upon return to families. Quite literally, a week could pass by between being in country at risk and being with family.
A lack of enough psychological help and staff to help decompress returning soldiers
Many, especially NG forces facing long, very stressful, and even multiple deployments they never really trained for.
Many have families that end up on poverty due to the low pay during their deployment, putting financial stress on them and family members.
Many have been forced to return or stay (stop-loss orders) from expected and anticipated ending their military careers.
Many have lost their pre-deployment employment and income despite protective laws, putting huge financial stress from their families. They may face difficulties in returning to employment as may have limited education, fears of them being redeployed again, the mental health problems, their jobs eliminated due to productivity changes or shipped out to other areas of the USA or the world.
Perhaps spouses left at home who comitted adultry, made poor financial or other decisions that had to be dealt with upon return.
A lack of experience by them and their families to deal with people who have such stressful situations.

To me there is a nasty combo of issues that are at play with these soldiers that may explain their high rate of comitting murder that need to be dealt with.
 
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:52 pm



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 40):
To me there is a nasty combo of issues that are at play with these soldiers that may explain their high rate of comitting murder that need to be dealt with.

.... Except that analysis shows there isn't a "high rate of comitting murder".
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:05 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 39):
Typo on my part. I used 89% in the calculations then mistyped it in my post.

So you are saying you think everything is hunky dory and that our post rotation troops are well adjusted, mentally and emotionally adjusted well enough and the military is doing its job regarding post-rotation mental health evaluations and support?
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:06 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 42):
So you are saying you think everything is hunky dory and that our post rotation troops are well adjusted, mentally and emotionally adjusted well enough and the military is doing its job regarding post-rotation mental health evaluations and support?

No, now go back and read the last part of post #15.
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:15 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 43):
No, now go back and read the last part of post #15.

Ah, my bad. You said "Yes, soldiers coming back from a war zone have problems that need dealing with, and our government is doing (and has always done) a pretty shitty job of it."

Then why do you have such an issue with the source/statistic? As I have said on more than one occasion that it was an indicator that we have a problem. If the figure is 89% or 139% or 59% it is just an indicator. I took this indicator and my own personal exposure to the issue via close friends, and my contact with other vets to come to the conclusion that we should do more, and seek the whys and wherefores of the indicated problem.

Is there something that the UK is doing for their post-rotation troops that is better? Worse? Same thing for the Blackwater type organizations. Are they doing something better, unique or worse than our military? I assume we have some employees of private contractors that have done rotations in Iraq on Anet. Hence my questions.

[Edited 2008-01-14 09:17:50]
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:30 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 44):
As I have said on more than one occasion that it was an indicator that we have a problem.

Well, from a criminological point of view, it's just the opposite. It's a very strong indication that this particular group is less violent, and less criminally inclined than the general public and we could do well to figure out why that is.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 44):
If the figure is 89% or 139% or 59% it is just an indicator.

It's an unsupported, and therefore meaningless number... and also just happens to be related to a number so minuscule that it's statistically insignificant. A jump of nine homicides is indicative of nothing.

As I said before, critical analysis of the NYT article clearly demonstrates that criminal conduct by soldiers is not out of proportion with that of the general public, but is in fact much better than the general public. The NYT article is little more than thinly veiled fear mongering. We do need to do a whole heck of a lot more for our veterans (based not on conjecture or second hand stories, but on personal experience) but attacking the situation on a crime based angle is pure poppy cock and  redflag .
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:36 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 3):
Excellent. Please be careful you don't sprain an ankle when dismounting off your high horse. Perhaps you'll grace us with a response.

I love it.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 3):
20 hours 39 minutes 45 secs ago

Nothing yet....
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:10 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 38):
Which has already been shown to be BS...

Really now? Show me the right statistics, then. Or are you just pulling out of thin air this claim that the NY Times did it's math wrong? Look, you can disagree with the significance of the numbers, and that's fine. If that's what you mean by "shown to be BS," I'll disagree with you, but I would understand where you're coming from. But you seem to be claiming that you know for a fact that the number of troop-related homicides did not increase from 184 in the six years before the WOT to 349 in the six years that the WOT has been going on. Which, pending you showing research countering the NYT's claims, you don't.
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:26 pm

You go to war; you kill; you see buddies killed; you see atrocities most people only have nightmares about.....it's going to change you. I think prior to deploying back home, everyone who has been in combat should be evaluated (and treated when necessary) by a mental health professional. But in reality, can anyone see the US Government spending money on that?
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RE: Why Are Soldiers Coming Home To Kill Others?

Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:26 pm

a very good friend of mine (an ex sia girl too), recently returned to s'pore after divorcing her american soldier husband. i've known her for years and from keeping in touch with her ever since she left singapore in the late 90s, she did have a really good marriage. her husband was sent to war overseas and when he returned home, she told me that he came back as a "darker" person, meaning on the inside. first there were a couple road rage incidents, then one day their dog had an accident on their living room's rug and he punched (not hit, punched) the poor animal repeatedly. he did seek treatments from the military but she said that it didn't really help him that much. for her the last straw was when they got into an argument, he grabbed her by the neck and said that he would kill her. i really hope that he's going to be ok. i've personally met the guy a few times, actually i went to their wedding, and he really was a nice guy. i feel bad for my girlfriend but i'm just glad that she did the right thing by leaving him. one should never tolerate physical abuse in a relationship. once you tolerate it, it will happen over and over again.
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