AR385
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Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:50 pm

For the first time since the Concilium Vaticano II a mass has been oficiated with the priest, in this case the Pope, giving his back to the curchgoers. The way I see it, any hope of Catholic Church reform is going to wait a few years with this character at its helm. Sad.

[Edited 2008-01-13 13:51:13]
 
EvilForce
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Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:53 pm



Quoting AR385 (Thread starter):
in this case the Pope, giving his back to the curchgoers.

May I ask why this is sad? Why would a religious leader turn his back on his flock? I'm not Catholic so maybe I'm missing something?
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AsstChiefMark
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Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:54 pm

Quoting AR385 (Thread starter):
Catholic Church reform

Isn't that an oxymoron?

[Edited 2008-01-13 13:55:04]
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sw733
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Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:18 pm

Reform of the Church isn't Benedict XVI. He never pretended to be for change...in fact, he was ALWAYS about keeping (and in some cases returning to) strict Catholic rules and doctrine. Yes, reform will have to wait until the next Pope, or perhaps longer. But one cannot criticize a Pope who always preached on old-school Catholicism for not reforming...

(On a side note (self gloss, which I never do) - I was lucky enough to take Communion at the Vatican on New Years Eve...maybe I WILL go to Heaven after all...ok probably not  Wink)
 
wingnut767
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Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:22 pm



Quoting AR385 (Thread starter):
any hope of Catholic Church reform

What kind of reform are you looking for?

Quoting SW733 (Reply 3):
Reform of the Church isn't Benedict XVI. He never pretended to be for change...in fact, he was ALWAYS about keeping (and in some cases returning to) strict Catholic rules and doctrine

And why is that bad?

Quoting SW733 (Reply 3):
Yes, reform will have to wait until the next Pope

What reform are you looking for?
Yakum purkan min shmaya
 
sw733
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Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:30 pm



Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 4):
And why is that bad?



Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 4):
What reform are you looking for?

Did I ever say it was bad? Did I ever say I wanted reform? No. I was clearing up why there has been no reform (perhaps to make the Catholic Church more liberal), which apparently is what AR385 (not me) wants. I don't think major reforms will happen very often, but there will be nothing (I bet) in my current Holy Father's reign to make the Church very different in any way - especially more liberal.
 
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falstaff
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Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:21 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 1):
Why would a religious leader turn his back on his flock

I am an Episcopalian and it is very common for the priest to have his back to the crowd. Just happened yesterday while I was at church; St. John's Episcopal in Detroit.

It isn't as common now, but when the church uses the 1928 prayer book you see more old school stuff like that. I can't speak for Catholics, but turning away from the crowd is probably a very traditional thing to do.
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EvilForce
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Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:27 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 6):
It isn't as common now, but when the church uses the 1928 prayer book you see more old school stuff like that. I can't speak for Catholics, but turning away from the crowd is probably a very traditional thing to do.

Interesting. Is there a reason for this? What was the purpose originally for this?

It just seems odd to me, so I assume there must be some tradition to follow and that there was a reason at one point why it was done this way.

You learn something new everyday.  Smile I've never heard of this practice before.
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falstaff
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Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:46 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 7):
Is there a reason for this?

I don't really know because I have always gone to a church where it is done and I never thought twice about it. I think it may have something to do with that the priest is facing the alter in the same direction as the parishioners. That way everyone would be facing the alter. It is only done during the part of the mass. The readings and sermon are done facing the audience.
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kalakaua
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Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:50 pm



Quoting AR385 (Thread starter):
The way I see it, any hope of Catholic Church reform is going to wait a few years with this character at its helm. Sad.

I always thought the captain at the helm of ship looked in the same direction as his crew, and vice-versa?  Wink
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Beaucaire
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Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:04 pm

The position of women in catholic church has always been kind of a mistery and misery for me.
Female energy is systematically supressed in most religions -specifiacally in christian ans islamic religion.
Ratzinger continues the dark side of male-chauvinistic dominance within the Vatican.So if there is any reform he should atteck-it's this one ! (combined with the permission of priests to be married..)
Once you read the apocryphal Gospel of Mary Magdalene,you wonder where we male chauvinists dare to take control of christianity..
It's very interesting reading and highly recommended to all those to dare to speak in the name of the Catholic Church..
(like most gnostic textes are much more inetresting to read than the sa$nitized versions of the official Gospels..)

[Edited 2008-01-14 08:12:51]
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kalakaua
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Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:12 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 10):
The position of women in catholic church has always been kind of a mistery and misery for me.

You're talking about the religion where many believe Catholics "WORSHIP" the VIRGIN MARY?!
Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion.
 
AsstChiefMark
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Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:13 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 10):
Ratzinger continues the dark side

Nice! Was that done intentionally?

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Beaucaire
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Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:19 pm

The issue with the bible is that it is a sanitized text based on assumptions by people who wrote it long time after Jesus died.
Mary Magdalena and other apocryphal texts (who are not neccessarily Gnostic ) who have been suppressed by the church( becaus they don't fit their doma..) are the true core of the Christian religion.
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707CMF
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Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:22 pm

Much a fuss over really... not much.

First of all, this is not the first time a priest celebrates a mass while turning his back to the attendants. It happens, from time to time, usually when the configuration of the church in question mandates it.

Check this picture of the Sixtine Chapel :



Masses are seldom celebrated there, and as you can see, the only altar in it makes it impossible to celebrate the Mass while facing the people.

Another note : the Pope yesterday celebrated the Paul VI ("Vatican II") mass. Not the 'controversial' St Pius V mass.

Cheers,

707
 
kalakaua
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Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:35 pm



Quoting 707cmf (Reply 16):
Masses are seldom celebrated there, and as you can see, the only altar in it makes it impossible to celebrate the Mass while facing the people.

Actually, there is a movable smaller altar that JPII has used in the past that does face the congregation.
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Klaus
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Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:36 pm



Quoting Kalakaua (Reply 11):
You're talking about the religion where many believe Catholics "WORSHIP" the VIRGIN MARY?!

And at the same time treat women as second-rate human beings. Not a rare combination in any way.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 12):
Nice! Was that done intentionally?

Uncanny! Big grin
 
dl021
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Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:38 pm

Oft times when leading a flock you must walk the direction you wish them to follow. They will see your back then, and it is no disrespect.

Many who wish to find fault with the new Pope would do so at any opportunity, and the effort to diminish his authority as Pope by referring to him by his birth name rather than his new title are the same who get offended when one refers to a transgendered individual by their birth sex. I find this somewhat hypocritical, and disrespectful.

Opinions will vary, and I'm not Catholic, but until the Pope starts acting like a warmongerer calling for the destruction of nations and ethnicities then he doesn't deserve the level of disrespect shown by many here.....who would probably wilt in the presence of the man and show nothing but deference and politesse. If he continues to disallow women in the pulpit or to decry birth control then I've got grievances with him, but there's a difference. Until he really does something about the sexual abuse problem in the Catholic church (other than sweep it up and cover it up), like become more realistic and allow priests to marry, then I've got real issues with the Church in general (you cannot live in this day and age celibate, and in the old days they never bothered to do so unless it was voluntary anyway).

The ones who mock and show open disrespect generally do so because they feel powerless to do anything else. If you really want to make your points, then do so without the invective or silly comparisons. All you're going to do is rile up the faithful and focus the argument on your use of mockery rather than the points you really have.
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kalakaua
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Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:44 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 18):
And at the same time treat women as second-rate human beings. Not a rare combination in any way.

What a cheap shot. And you're saying that only the Catholic Church does that? Over-generalize much?
Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion.
 
Klaus
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Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:54 pm



Quoting Kalakaua (Reply 21):
What a cheap shot. And you're saying that only the Catholic Church does that? Over-generalize much?

I have not claimed that the catholic church was the only religious group to act that way. Many muslims appear to have the same combination of disparate attitudes towards women, or patriarchal societies in general all over the world.
 
SBBRTech
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Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:57 pm



Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 12):

Nice! Was that done intentionally?

LOL, Chief, even our resident "bible thumpers" had a laugh at it.
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Confuscius
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Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:04 pm

And at the same time treat women as second-rate human beings. Not a rare combination in any way.

Paying for their brothers' sin...


Thursday, October 4, 2007
Sisters can't live near church

BY COLBY FRAZIER
DAILY SOUND STAFF WRITER

Three nuns who were evicted from their Nopal Street convent in August by the Archdiocese of Los Angeles will be allowed to continue living and working in Santa Barbara city limits, according to a letter delivered to the nuns by their superior general on Oct. 1.
The only catch: they can’t live “near” Our Lady of Guadalupe Catholic Church, which their current convent is directly next to, said Ernie Salomon, a spokesman for a group called Support our Sisters of Bethany in Santa Barbara, which is trying to raise money to relocate the nuns.

The convent is one of several properties owned by the Archdiocese that have they claim will be sold to help pay a $650 million priest sex abuse settlement.


http://sbdailysound.blogspot.com/200...sisters-cant-live-near-church.html
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lowrider
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Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:12 pm

[

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 24):
And at the same time treat women as second-rate human beings. Not a rare combination in any way.

Now how is the church selling a piece of property they own treating women as second rate human beings. It didn't say they were throwing them out on the street. The article also does not give a reason that the next residence cannot be near the church, but I would think it has something to do with property values and the need to profit from the sale. Would you rather the church simply declare bankruptcy and not pay? Wait, then they would be an airline...
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andessmf
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Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:24 pm

For those who did not know, the Catholic Church only recently introduced mass in the language of the region. Prior to this, it was only in Latin.

At the same time, priests would give masses giving their backs to their flock, as they would always face the altar. The altar was moved to allow the priest to face their flock and altar at the same time.
 
Confuscius
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Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:25 pm

but I would think it has something to do with property values and the need to profit from the sale. Would you rather the church simply declare bankruptcy and not pay?

There's a brand new cathedral in downtown L.A. that would fetch a lot more.

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lowrider
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Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:06 pm



Quoting Confuscius (Reply 27):
There's a brand new cathedral in downtown L.A. that would fetch a lot more.

And displace hundreds or even thousands of (donating) church goers in the process, vs 3 people. I am not a fan of the Catholic Church, but I don't want to see them unfairly smeared either.
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AsstChiefMark
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Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:15 pm



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 28):
And displace hundreds or even thousands of (donating) church goers

That's their fault. It's like volunteering time and/or donating (or loaning) money to the OJ Simpson's defense fund. It's a gamble with high odds from the start. And there's no payoff even if you "win." That is, unless you think donating money will earn you brownie points toward getting into Heaven.  duck 
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andessmf
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RE: Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:46 pm



Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 26):
That is, unless you think donating money will earn you brownie points toward getting into Heaven.

There are some that have some hope of getting in still. Others, like you and I, are lost causes already.
 
Confuscius
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RE: Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:49 pm

That is, unless you think donating money will earn you brownie points toward getting into Heaven.

Good ole Indulgence, eh?
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JGPH1A
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RE: Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:19 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 17):
he doesn't deserve the level of disrespect shown by many here.....

And how much respect do we feel he actually deserves ? He's the leader of a cult. Big whoop. So is Sun Yung Moon. Even President Bush at least had the common decency to get democratically* elected. Ratzinger didn't even have to suffer that indignity. He's just one old warped 75 year-old virgin in a VERY pretty dress voted for by 100 or so other 75 year-old virgins in slightly less pretty dresses. The world's oldest, ugliest Prom Queen.

(* well more or less  Wink )
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KLM685
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RE: Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:35 pm

I don't see anything wrong. We just went back to tradition and his job was to do what he did. It's not about not being polite, he's showing his respects to Christ anyway.
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AR385
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RE: Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:57 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 29):
He's just one old warped 75 year-old virgin in a VERY pretty dress voted for by 100 or so other 75 year-old virgins in slightly less pretty dresses. The world's oldest, ugliest Prom Queen.

I have to love you for the above!
 
AR385
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RE: Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:10 pm



Quoting KLM685 (Reply 30):
I don't see anything wrong. We just went back to tradition

The Concilio Vaticano II reformed the church by, among other things:

1. Allowing women to go to mass with their heads uncovered
2. Allowing mass to be given facing the flock
3. Allowing mass to be given in languages other than Latin
4. Allowing music
5. Allowing mass at many hours of the day so churchgoers with busy schedules could find it easier to go.

Pope John XXIII did this to bring the Catholic Church up with the times

What Ratzinger (or Pope Benedict XVI, so I don't get accused of being disrespectful) is doing is regressing. Let's bring the crusades back, the inquisition, after all, it would only be "going back to tradition" right?
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:15 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 29):
Ratzinger didn't even have to suffer that indignity. He's just one old warped 75 year-old virgin in a VERY pretty dress voted for by 100 or so other 75 year-old virgins in slightly less pretty dresses.

Are you sure they didn't have sex with each other? Picture it in your mind.

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Flighty
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RE: Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:43 pm

His ability to make things more conservative is limited by his lifespan. He will be gone in 10 years or less probably, as he himself has said. Therefore, his changes are being done strategically to have some effect, but willingly upon the masses. If they did not come to accept it, they could reverse it when he is dead. He knows that, so he will only do things people will like. That is my 2c.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:46 pm



Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 33):

Are you sure they didn't have sex with each other?

No - that's the Islamic version of the 75 virgins.

And besides - have you ever seen a Cardinal up close ?  yuck 
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AsstChiefMark
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RE: Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:02 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 35):
have you ever seen a Cardinal up close ?

Loads of them. The feeder's full of 'em in the winter.

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EvilForce
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RE: Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:06 pm



Quoting AR385 (Reply 32):
What Ratzinger (or Pope Benedict XVI, so I don't get accused of being disrespectful) is doing is regressing.

If I'm not mistaken it's in conservative parts of the world like Latin America and Africa where the Catholic church is thriving and growing especially with adding preists. In the more liberal areas of western Europe and America attendance is dwindling or stagnant and priest recruitment is way down. Stands to reason that the group you reach out to is the ones driving your growth. *shrug*
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JGPH1A
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RE: Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:09 pm



Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 36):
Loads of them. The feeder's full of 'em in the winter.

And you'd sleep with that ? My my, standards are way down in Wisconsin ! Must be the cold winters  Smile
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
andessmf
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RE: Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:19 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 38):
And you'd sleep with that ?

Did you not indirectly answer your own question?

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 38):
Must be the cold winters

 
lowrider
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RE: Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:30 pm



Quoting AR385 (Reply 32):
Allowing

Different from requiring. The way I read it is that it is at the option of the priest.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 32):
What Ratzinger (or Pope Benedict XVI, so I don't get accused of being disrespectful) is doing is regressing. Let's bring the crusades back, the inquisition, after all, it would only be "going back to tradition" right?

Glad your not prone to histrionics.
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dl021
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RE: Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:55 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 16):
And at the same time treat women as second-rate human beings. Not a rare combination in any way.

I'd say that the Church's treatment of women is less than as equals, but you seem...oh wait....

Quoting Klaus (Reply 19):
Many muslims appear to have the same combination of disparate attitudes towards women, or patriarchal societies in general all over the world.

Yeah...ok....there's the comparison I was waiting for. There is no real comparison to the denial of the pulpit to women (against which I stand, although I'm not Catholic...family past notwithstanding) and the encouragement of battering and mutilating women, and treating them as property and punishing them for being raped. Catholic women get to drive and don't have to wear veils.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 29):
how much respect do we feel he actually deserves ?

Entirely up to you.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 29):
He's the leader of a cult.

In your opinion any organized religion is a cult, which sort of makes you out there a little on this issue.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 29):
Ratzinger didn't even have to suffer that indignity. He's just one old warped 75 year-old virgin in a VERY pretty dress voted for by 100 or so other 75 year-old virgins in slightly less pretty dresses.

Which puts you further out there on this issue. He did get elected by the democratic means of the Church. He is elected for life and the absolute ruler of his tiny nation, but he's elected. And he doesn't issue fatwahs like some theocratic rulers we know (and some misplaced African froggies).

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 29):
The world's oldest, ugliest Prom Queen.

You just wish. I think you've got a crush on him.  Wink

Quoting AR385 (Reply 32):
What Ratzinger (or Pope Benedict XVI, so I don't get accused of being disrespectful) is doing is regressing.

There's an opinion that may hold some validity. But is a tightening up on enforcement of existing standards regressing? If the rules haven't been changed?

Quoting AR385 (Reply 32):
Let's bring the crusades back, the inquisition, after all, it would only be "going back to tradition" right?

And there's the overreach that follows and makes it more difficult to discuss the original point. Why don't you bring up the Islamic Caliphate expansion which gained more territory than the Crusades did, and preceded the Crusades, which began to regain lost territories (like it or not). Comparing the dark aged induced inquisition to the current practices of the Church is like screaming murder when someone asks you to remove your shoes at the door.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 37):
If I'm not mistaken it's in conservative parts of the world like Latin America and Africa where the Catholic church is thriving and growing especially with adding preists.

I think your definition of conservative needs fleshing out. There are some seriously socialist nations in Latin America, and the African nations churches are fairly under siege, and they reflect their societies.
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LH498
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RE: Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:14 am



Quoting AR385 (Reply 32):
The Concilio Vaticano II reformed the church by, among other things:

1. Allowing women to go to mass with their heads uncovered
2. Allowing mass to be given facing the flock
3. Allowing mass to be given in languages other than Latin
4. Allowing music
5. Allowing mass at many hours of the day so churchgoers with busy schedules could find it easier to go.

Pope John XXIII did this to bring the Catholic Church up with the times

What Ratzinger (or Pope Benedict XVI, so I don't get accused of being disrespectful) is doing is regressing. Let's bring the crusades back, the inquisition, after all, it would only be "going back to tradition" right?

Actually what Pope Benedikt XVI is doing, is simply Allowing the celebration of the mass in the old way, it is not an edict ordering regression to the old times. As a catholic myself, I see nothing wrong with it too; I rather find it really interesting to attend mass celebrated in the old fashion way and even more in Latin, just by pure curiosity. The best part of it is that I still have the liberty to decide what kind of mass, and in what language, to attend.
 
Confuscius
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RE: Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:51 am

The best part of it is that I still have the liberty to decide what kind of mass, and in what language, to attend.

Agree, as long as it's short. I usually arrive late (after homily) and leave early (during communion).
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JGPH1A
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RE: Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:13 am



Quoting DL021 (Reply 41):
He did get elected by the democratic means of the Church. He is elected for life and the absolute ruler of his tiny nation, but he's elected.

You and I seem to have different views on what constitutes "democratic". "Selected by people nominated to their positions by his dead predecessor" is not normally considered in the same light as "of the people, by the people, for the people". Mind you, it is how GWB got "elected" in 2000, so maybe I'm wrong (  Wink )

Quoting DL021 (Reply 41):
In your opinion any organized religion is a cult, which sort of makes you out there a little on this issue.

In the strictest definition of the word, any organised religion IS a cult. That's what cult means.
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RE: Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:14 am



Quoting AR385 (Reply 32):

The Concilio Vaticano II reformed the church by, among other things:

1. Allowing women to go to mass with their heads uncovered
2. Allowing mass to be given facing the flock
3. Allowing mass to be given in languages other than Latin
4. Allowing music
5. Allowing mass at many hours of the day so churchgoers with busy schedules could find it easier to go.

Mmmmm.

Even in the 'traditionalist' churches (where mass is celebrated in Latin every sunday without authorisation of the official Church), most women have their heads uncovered, and a lot of music is played (granted, you will find mainly classical music.).

As for the 'hours' of the mass, here are the hours you can go to mass on a sunday in an 'integrist' church of Paris : 8am, 9am, 10.30am,12.15 pm and 18.30 pm . And yes, there, they celebrate the mass in Latin while turning their back to the churchgoers.

Also, Vatican II did not allow mass to be given in languages other than Latin, that was already a reality for several Catholic rites other than Roman (Maronites, Uniates...). The concil allowed the mass to be celebrated in vernacular (means everyday language).

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RE: Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:07 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 41):
Catholic women get to drive and don't have to wear veils.

They're just like the vast majority of Muslim women then.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 41):
In your opinion any organized religion is a cult, which sort of makes you out there a little on this issue.

It's not like he's alone in that opinion though, is it?
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RE: Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:57 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 29):

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RE: Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:34 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 44):
You and I seem to have different views on what constitutes "democratic".

Not really....I did qualify my point by adding that it was the churches mechanism for democracy.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 46):
They're just like the vast majority of Muslim women then.

Not in a significant portion of the non-western world. The relative percentages and degrees of freedom of women who live within the boundaries of the two religions is vast when you think about the number of women in one who range from totally oppressed to partially, and then in the other who range from totally equal to slightly degraded. Doesn't make the slightly degraded part fair or right, but it does show a real difference that people seem to be unwilling to acknowledge.

If the people who were really out for fairness in the world were serious they'd be picketing the statehouses of the nations that allow the religion to encourage beating the women and treating them as cattle.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 46):
It's not like he's alone in that opinion though, is it?

Perhaps not...but in the minority worldwide. You do forget that this interpretation is not the rule worldwide....and it's easy to do when one's circle of friends doesn't include many who are openly religious. I don't know your personal situation, but if this forum is an indication of your circle, then it's skewed to the left a little and perhaps therefore skewed against organized religion (Christianity mostly....as many of these same people exhibit much more respect for Buddhism and other Eastern religions) in a bit more militant fashion. Perhaps because Christian religions don't generally issue fatwahs and riot in the streets burning down embassies and such. It's easier and closer to home.
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RE: Ratzinger Showing His True Colors (again)

Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:57 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 48):
Not in a significant portion of the non-western world.

Which "non-Western" Muslim countries force women to wear veils and don't allow them to drive? I can only think of one of the many Muslim countries I've visited and worked in where this is true. The vast majority of Muslim women are not subjected to those restrictions. I'm certainly not defending the extremists who chose to interpret their religious scripts to suite their own agendas (regardless of which religion it is).

A devout Muslim friend of mine and I have debated these issues on many occasions, and, as always, the reasonable interpretation is generally acceptable. His interpretation is that Islam teaches respect for women and it is only the twisted interpretation of a minority that causes the problems of oppression and misogyny.

BTW, his wife doesn't wear a veil and is free to drive, so he's obviously very enlightened. However, neither of them drink alcohol, so maybe I need to work on them a bit more!  wink 

Talking of alcohol, that's another area where the vast majority of Muslims are not subject to any restrictions on its consumption. Indonesia (the World's most populous Muslim state) is very fond of beer and wine, and several Muslim countries have long traditions of wine-making. So one can hardly paint all Muslims with the non-alcohol brush.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 48):
You do forget that this interpretation is not the rule worldwide....and it's easy to do when one's circle of friends doesn't include many who are openly religious.

CULT
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cult
Definition 1

Quote:
a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

I have many friends who are openly religious. Some of them are not even Christians!  Wow!

Quoting DL021 (Reply 48):
If the people who were really out for fairness in the world were serious they'd be picketing the statehouses of the nations that allow the religion to encourage beating the women and treating them as cattle.

Or those that condone murder by the state and imprisonment without trial? Or those that recruit local help in a war situation, then abandon those helpers when they decide to cut and run.  scratchchin 
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