LHStarAlliance
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Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:26 pm

Hi Guys ,

Let's discuss here about the Elections in Hessen and Niedersachsen !

I presume Koch will able to keep governing , what do you think ?

Will the Left pass the 5% ? I doubt it ! Way too chaotic there ...big mistakes have been done there .

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HT
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Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:24 am



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
Elections in Hessen and Niedersachsen !

For Niedersachsen (Lower Saxony) anything but the continuation of the current CDU/FDP-coalition would be a big surprise.
One important factor will be the weather as bad weather will keep even more people away from the ballots. Forecasts of noshows are rather high - even higher than last time.
This will be a major factor whether left-wing party "Die Linke" will make it into the Landtag in Hannover or not.

Having missed not a single election in the last 22 years, I will make my two crosses around noon on Sunday.
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DAL767400ER
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Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:42 am



Quoting HT (Reply 1):
For Niedersachsen (Lower Saxony) anything but the continuation of the current CDU/FDP-coalition would be a big surprise.

Fully agreed.

As for Hessen, I'd expect a victory for Koch. Granted, it looks like a close race, but at the same time in recent poll like half the people asked said they hadn't made up their mind. And IMHO, quite a few of them are "closet Koch votes", people who agree with Koch's views but don't publically speak about it. So I expect another victory for the CDU.

Personally, I'm more worried about the upcoming Senatswahl in Hamburg anyway.
 
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LTU932
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Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:23 am



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
Will the Left pass the 5% ?

The only "constituency" the SED Linkspartei has is in the Eastern states, because there are still people who either trust them for some reason or are still living in political Ostalgie. Nobody in the Western states trusts them, and if they do get over 5%, it would be a miracle. In a nutshell, chances of the Linkspartei making it to both the Landtag of Hessen and Niedersachsen are slim at best.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 2):
Personally, I'm more worried about the upcoming Senatswahl in Hamburg anyway.

I'm personally hoping that von Beust gets re-elected and keeps the absolute Mehrheit, and it seems that given his recent term, chances are high for that to happen. I simply don't want to see the Bürgerschaft have another fiasco like the SPD-GAL coalition under Runde or the ill-fated von Beust led CDU coalition with the Schill-Partei. After all the political turmoil in the early 90's and in early 2000, we need to keep stability. If it ain't broken, don't fix it.
 
TransIsland
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Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:55 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3):
The only "constituency" the SED Linkspartei has is in the Eastern states,

That's not quite accurate. Don't forget that the reason Germany now has "Die Linke" - rather than the PDS - is that under Schroeder the SPD disgruntled many who traditionally voted for them, who were now looking for a Wahlalternative left of the Neue Mitte.

I for one hope that Koch gets ousted. As far as I'm concerned, I don't care whether it's the NPD running on a fascist agenda or whether the CDU runs a xenophobic campaign (supposedly to keep the right wing vote in the "democratic spectrum") - that strategy however contradicts the very essence of being a democratic party, thus the CDU is, partly, a party of the radical right wing.

And from the same point of view, von Beust disqualified himself for all eternity as a democratic candidate when he had himself elected Regierender Buergermeister with the votes of Schill and his lot. No matter what he claims now.
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Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:15 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3):
chances are high for that to happen.

Actually no, per recent polls the SPD has caught up with the CDU, although SPD/Grüne would still need the Sozi-Säue to rule Hamburg, but at least both parties have said they don't want that. Will definitely be interesting to see.

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 4):
xenophobic campaign

"Xenophobic camparign"? Well, pardon Koch for daring to actually say something negative about the criminal foreigners in this country, lord knows most of our politicians are kissing their a$$es anyway.
 
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Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:40 am



Quoting TransIsland (Reply 4):
That's not quite accurate. Don't forget that the reason Germany now has "Die Linke" - rather than the PDS - is that under Schroeder the SPD disgruntled many who traditionally voted for them, who were now looking for a Wahlalternative left of the Neue Mitte.

I still have faith in the German people that they see the Linkspartei for what it is: the successor party of the communist SED which operated under the name PDS for 15 years and during its brutal rule in the 40 years of existence of the so-called DDR, is responsible for many human rights violations and for killing people at the border, who simply wanted to live in freedom in the West.

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 4):
Regierender Buergermeister

That title belongs to the mayor of Berlin.  Wink

The mayor title in Hamburg is officially "Erster Bürgermeister und Präsident des Senats der Freien und Hansestadt Hamburg", or short "Erster Bürgermeister" or just "Bürgermeister".

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 5):
Actually no, per recent polls the SPD has caught up with the CDU, although SPD/Grüne would still need the Sozi-Säue to rule Hamburg, but at least both parties have said they don't want that. Will definitely be interesting to see.

I stand corrected. Having been out of town for the last 10 years sometimes gives me a bad perspective.  Confused

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 5):
"Xenophobic camparign"? Well, pardon Koch for daring to actually say something negative about the criminal foreigners in this country, lord knows most of our politicians are kissing their a$$es anyway.

Maybe the wording in his campaign can create the impression of xenophobia. It has certainly created that impresison on me, but since I didn't read all those reports fully, I'm not passing judgement. I do agree that we should do something about criminals from other countries in Germany, but in a way, this may also be a problem with the state and federal justice system as well, not just that many foreigners commit felonies including violent crimes in our country, plus we should be careful if we start considering deportation as an alternative.

For example, if someone commits an "honour" killing in Germany, we should lock him up and throw away the key, because otherwise, if we trust the people in his homeland too much with them punishing him for that crime, and we either deport him or allow him to flee, we may get fooled and the guy or guys may get off the hook if they are back home, being free to do whatever they please and remain unpunished. One example is the case of Hatun Sürücü, who got killed by her brothers, of which two of them fled Germany and are still in Turkey, which doesn't extradite its own citizens, or in that other discussion, where it was suggested that the Pakistani man in Canada, who killed his daughter for refusing to wear more traditional Muslim clothes, should be deported. We have to see two sides of the coin. What I suggest is that, unless they're sentenced to life without parole, that upon the end of their sentence, they get deported and, depending on the severity of the crime, get either banned from Germany for either 10 or 20 years, or banned for good.
 
TransIsland
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Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:42 am



Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 5):
Well, pardon Koch for daring to actually say something negative about the criminal foreigners in this country

And I suppose the reason that he changed his campaign posters from warning about SPD and GRUENE to warning about Ypsilanti and Al-Wazir is not xenophobic? Or are the two of them actually criminal foreigners and the Landeswahlleiter hasn't been made aware of this???

Sure, there are criminal foreigners in Germany. There are also criminal Germans. There are also criminal Germans abroad, so they are criminal foreigners themselves. However, Koch's campaign suggests that there is such a thing as a quick fix for the SYMPTOMS and completely fails to address the CAUSES.
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TransIsland
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Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:48 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 6):
That title belongs to the mayor of Berlin.

My apologies to Wowi. As a former Berliner I should've known better.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 6):
I still have faith in the German people that they see the Linkspartei for what it is: the successor party of the communist SED which operated under the name PDS for 15 years and during its brutal rule in the 40 years of existence of the so-called DDR, is responsible for many human rights violations and for killing people at the border, who simply wanted to live in freedom in the West.

And both the CDU as well as the FDP merged with the East German Blockfloeten who supported this regime and its human rights violations.
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Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:18 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 6):

I still have faith in the German people that they see the Linkspartei for what it is: the successor party of the communist

The "Linke" is not the successor of the SED., they are the same. The SED never ceased to exist. They just renamed themsleves a couple of times. Thank God, the NSDAP never had the chance to rename itaself to "Partei des Demokratischen Nationalsozialismus". Imagine, there wouel be a party called "Die Rechte" today. Kotz.

.  vomit 

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 7):
Sure, there are criminal foreigners in Germany. There are also criminal Germans. There are also criminal Germans abroad, so they are criminal foreigners themselves. However, Koch's campaign suggests that there is such a thing as a quick fix for the SYMPTOMS and completely fails to address the CAUSES.

Exactly. And Koch never made a distinction between these groups. Koch argued against young crininals and he highlogujhted, that the number of youth weith an immigration background is over proportiuonal. That is a fact. Since when is it xenophobia, calling out facts?

What happened here is that the media put words in Koch's mouth he never said. Famous one is the sentence where he said, that one must THINK abvout extending the juvenile crime paragraphs to children between 12 and 14 years. (for those not familiar - children under 14 cannot be punished for anything) . The media translated this into "KOch wants to put 12-14 years old in jail" He never said that and he never meant that. Even 14 or 16 year olds have to committ 100+ crimes before a judge even considers to put them into jail Judges are indeüpendent in Germany BTW.



Quoting TransIsland (Reply 8):

And both the CDU as well as the FDP merged with the East German Blockfloeten who supported this regime and its human rights violatio

BS -the so called "Blockfloeten" were part fo the SED but never ever an independent party in East Germany. They had no political power, no saying whatspever. The DDR was owned and run by the SED, there was no other polticalpower in that dictatorship.

.

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 4):

I for one hope that Koch gets ousted. As far as I'm concerned

It is your good right to have that opinion, however, if you don't live in the State of Hesse, leave that decision to the residents.

As we are discussing in an aviation forum here, I find it interesting that no one so far highlighted the result of the election concerning the airport (FRA) . If Koch is defeated today, that will be the end of the airport extension for the next five years, there will be no new runway, no Terminal 3 and trafficnfigues will stagnate at best. I do not hope for this result, but it will be interesting to watch what LH decides int hat case. My prediction is, that MUC and LEJ would be the clear winners.LH would be forced to switch the primary hub to MUC.
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Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:53 am



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 9):
BS -the so called "Blockfloeten" were part fo the SED but never ever an independent party in East Germany. They had no political power, no saying whatspever. The DDR was owned and run by the SED, there was no other polticalpower in that dictatorship.

If you want to look at it that way, then CDU and FDP merged with parts of the SED. C'mon, you can't possibly have forgotten that aspect of history... it's only been 18 years.

Organisations only hold the power that the people in them exercise. The Blockfloeten chose to play a certain tune, and if you say that they were forced to in a dictatorship, then so were millions of SED members.

As for the NSDAP becoming "Die Rechte," no need to. Kiesinger and Filbinger and countless others were very happy in the CDU.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 9):
It is your good right to have that opinion, however, if you don't live in the State of Hesse, leave that decision to the residents.

Well, doh.... I kinda have to, don't I? They're out and about voting right now, I just got up and have the first cup of coffee of the day at the other end of the world. Nonetheless, their seem to be German-flag-displaying members who are allowed to have opinions on the political affairs of several Bundeslaender, why can't I?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 9):
Koch argued against young crininals and he highlogujhted, that the number of youth weith an immigration background is over proportiuonal. That is a fact. Since when is it xenophobia, calling out facts?

1. Because he still only wants to "fix" the symptoms, rather than alleviate the causes, even though any sociological research clearly shows that it is the society as a whole who breeds crimes which then happen to committed by those who are the underprivileged.

2. Because you all still chose to ignore how Koch focused his campaign on the SPD's and Green's candidates Ypsilanti and Al-Wazir and their foreign-sounding names, instead of on political issues. Honestly, Clement said more about issues than Koch.
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columba
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Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:08 pm

I don´ t care for Koch but I don´t want the SPD to win so they have more power in the Bundesrat.
Koch was right in so far that in the big cities in Germany we have a problem with juvenile crime - not only commited by foreigners but to a large percentage. I worked for the D.A. as an Referendar and every prosecuter I spoke with said the same: There has been an increase in the crime rate and juveniles who commit crimes have less scupeles on using a knife then 10 years ago.
So I was really wondering that in the media many so called experts were downplaying this matter. So I hope for a CDU/FDP coalition with a strong FDP that can control Koch a bit and the CDU/FDP still having the majority in the Bundesrat and Beck and Struck don´t having much to say !!
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Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:06 pm



Quoting TransIsland (Reply 10):

If you want to look at it that way, then CDU and FDP merged with parts of the SED. C'mon, you can't possibly have forgotten that aspect of history... it's only been 18 years.

A very cynical way to twist reality. After the reunification, people had a choice for the first time in their lives., you must not forget that ditactorship ruled in that part of Germany since 1933. A party memnbership in the SED/Die Linke was, for many, the only way to maintain a saomewhat liveable life. With the reunification and the freedom of choice, it was up to the individual which party he wanted to join and all parties in Germany took new members. That includes the SPD as well.

Fact is, organisations like the Ost CDU and the Ost FDP had no own power,could not make own decisions and had to do what the few people who owned the GDR forced them to do. I doubnt, that most of the GDR dissidents joined the CDU if that what you say here would hold up to the truth.



Quoting TransIsland (Reply 10):
As for the NSDAP becoming "Die Rechte," no need to. Kiesinger and Filbinger and countless others were very happy in the CDU.

You are making the same mistake here. You equal a dictorship with democracy. If you had some historical background, you couldhave mentioned other names, serving in high positions under Adenauer. but you totally forget that Adenauer, like most deeply religiuous Catholics, had also a deept contempt for the Nazis.Adenauer was picked by the Allies to compete for the office of Chancellor. The Allies would not have OK'd people like Globke if there would have been a choice. Germany had only partial sovereignty then. But these people served under the rule oif the law and democracy, That goes for Kiesinger and Filbinger as well BTW.

Modrow and others still would rather run the GDR dictatorship, they have not changed their opinion and the goal of Die Linke is to defeat democracy and the pluralistic spociety.

.

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 10):
to have opinions on the political affairs of several Bundeslaender, why can't I

Just read my sentence. I said that you have the right to your opinion.


.

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 10):

1. Because he still only wants to "fix" the symptoms, rather than alleviate the causes, even though any sociological research clearly shows that it is the society as a whole who breeds crimes which then happen to committed by those who are the underprivileged.

I take it that you cannot receive ZDF in your neck of the woods. If you could and if you had seen "Hart aber Fair" 2 weeks ago, you'd know that you are talking rubbish. Framnk Plasberg interviewed a Truksih guy, the typical macho with muscles, former bully boy with manyconvictions and now on "the right track" . Plasberg asked him how society treated and this moron answered - well good, no problem, he had vereything he needed, just didn't take it. Plasberg was a bit shocked and told him -well, but you are mow in an appreticeship - no the guy said, I just dropped out, I will go into the protection business now. .

The Justice Minister, on the panel, went pale and asked her "Green" neighbour - a Berlin Senate MP with Turkish background - "Wasn't he briefed" The answer was "Yes", .

The answer for the German people and the Immigrants living here is, you have all the chances, but you have tpo grab them Nobody in politcs can and will force anybody to integrate himself into our society. But of you don't, you may have to make some decisions for yourself. Nobody is "underprivileged" here, but if don't make yourwself fit for the society you live in, don't learn the language properly and whatever it takes, you make sure for yourself that the options you have are becoming scarce.

Don't blame this on Koch or any other politician, regardles which colour.

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 10):
2. Because you all still chose to ignore how Koch focused his campaign on the SPD's and Green's candidates Ypsilanti and Al-Wazir and their foreign-sounding names, instead of on political issues. Honestly, Clement said more about issues than Koch

Rubbish again. Don't blame Mr. Koch for the fact that Ms. Dill choose to keep the name of her diverced Greek husband. Don't blame Mr. Koch for the fact that Ms.Knirsch, who is Al Wazir's mother, took that name. If Mr. Al Wazir would feel that he is udnerprivileged with that name, he could change it any time to Knirsch.

Teaming up with the communists is a political issue and calling it out is not a taboo. The CDU would have posted "Dill, Knirsch and the communists", but the CDU has to use the names the candidates are using.

If you'd been as close to this campaign as I am, you would know that the CDU has taken up all issues. Before Koch won office 9 years ago, all of Germany laughed about the Hessen Abitur (High School diploma). The Hessen Abitur was a malus. Mrs Y wants to roll back to the old times, but she does not say that clearly.

She does not say how she wants to push the new landing runway through the courts, she does not say where energy is coming from once this lunatic guy she has appointed as Economics Minuster puts his phantasies at work. Sjhe does not tell people that their energy bill will at least double in that case.

She does not say who she will finance all her phantasies, which will cost at least 1 Billion Euro annually. Hesse does not have that money. All Mrs Y answers are vague promises.

Koch has not only a clear statement for all these issues, he also has a proven record over the past nine years.

Ypsilanti wants to roll back Hesse with her program and she needs the Greens and the Communists to do that.,
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Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:08 pm

The first "Hochrechnungen" will be starting 17:30 in Hessen Rundfunk ...

I can't wait to know the results  bouncy   hyper   hyper 


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PanHAM
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Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:16 pm



Quoting Columba (Reply 11):
So I was really wondering that in the media many so called experts were downplaying this matter. So I hope for a CDU/FDP coalition with a strong FDP that can control Koch a bit and the CDU/FDP

So do I, I want the FDP in the State Giverment and I would have preferred that over the past 5 years as well, Koch invited them, but they passed the option because Koch had an absolute majority then.


If you'd know Koch personally, you'd change your mind BTW. Coming back to the main issue concerning aviation fans, only a CDU/FDP coalitiuon will bring the airport extension and even then it will be tough to get it done., If this fails Hesse and the city of Frankfurt and its metro area will fall behind.
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columba
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Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:26 pm

It speaks for itself that a former SPD Minister of the Federal Goverment and Prime Minister is giving the advice not to vote his own party because of the candidate. I believe Clement that he did not do that because he is a member of the board of RWE.
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TransIsland
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Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:36 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
A very cynical way to twist reality.

You are twisting it, too. By admitting that many members of the SED only joined that party in order to avoid being penalised in the GDR (and in the next paragraph issuing Persilscheine to Kiesinger and Filbinger, whom you cannot seriously consider Mitlaeufer for they were two of Hitler's "willing executioners"), you say it's okay if they join other parties in the new system, even if those party organisations already existed and supported the GDR regime. However, if those members aren't happy with the West German political buffet and want to campaign for a left agenda, then they're Alt-Kommunisten. Realitaetsfremd.

As far as "historical background" (BTW, I have a history degree from a German "Eliteuniversitaet") is concerned, I would suggest you read up on the East German political system including the role of the Blockparteien.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
Modrow and others still would rather run the GDR dictatorship, they have not changed their opinion and the goal of Die Linke is to defeat democracy and the pluralistic spociety.

Yawn. Care to back this up... for instance with quotes from the party's platform? Even representatives of the Grosse Koalition and the president of the Verfassungsschutz are suggesting that an observation of "Die Linke" ought to end. http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,531243,00.html (sorry, German only)

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
Just read my sentence. I said that you have the right to your opinion.

Oh, I read your sentence. And between the lines it essentially told me to shut up and let the Hessians talk. Erbarmen. Zu Spaet.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
I take it that you cannot receive ZDF in your neck of the woods.

No, I can't. However, I read German newspapers daily (online) and talk to friends and family there almost daily. I also haven't been gone for that long, and return almost every year. We also have a fairly good percentage of immigrants over here and similar crime problems (dare I say worse). And they always have socio-economic roots. And one dumba$$ talking rubbish on national TV does not invalidate countless scientific studies, no matter how much the conservatives would like you to believe it.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
. Don't blame Mr. Koch for the fact that Ms. Dill choose to keep the name of her diverced Greek husband. Don't blame Mr. Koch for the fact that Ms.Knirsch, who is Al Wazir's mother, took that name. ... The CDU would have posted "Dill, Knirsch and the communists", but the CDU has to use the names the candidates are using.

Now you're the one talking rubbish. I don't blame Koch for the candidates' family history. I blame him for abusing it in HIS election campaign, on HIS posters. And if the names were Knirsch and Dill or Schmidt and Mueller or Koch and Gemuese, he would not have used their last names, but would've used their parties' names instead.... After all, he chose to say "Kommunisten" and not "van Ooyen," admittedly foreign-sounding, but not really suggesting a darker skin complexion.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
Before Koch won office 9 years ago, all of Germany laughed about the Hessen Abitur (High School diploma).

Just a tad exaggerated.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
She does not say how she wants to push the new landing runway through the courts, she does not say where energy is coming from once this lunatic guy she has appointed as Economics Minuster puts his phantasies at work. Sjhe does not tell people that their energy bill will at least double in that case.

She does. You only choose to either ignore it or flaty dismiss it without seriously checking the proposals' feasibility. Hey, that's what political campaigning is all about.

But allow me one small correction. She hasn't appointed anyone yet - she may have designated people to positions, but even that is open to negotiation, because the "tree huggers" and "communists" would have to have some say in that if the "Linksblock" you so dread became reality.
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columba
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RE: Hessen/Niedersachsen Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:43 pm



Quoting TransIsland (Reply 16):
And one dumba$$ talking rubbish on national TV does not invalidate countless scientific studies, no matter how much the conservatives would like you to believe it.

A good read about the "foreigner" situation:

http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/gesellschaft/0,1518,529487,00.html

I like this part best:

"Also gehen wir zum Point of departure zurück, schauen uns die allererste Matroschka aus der Nähe an, besagten Video-Blog bei der "Zeit": Wir sehen einen Herrn mittleren Alters an seinem Arbeitsplatz, noch ganz benommen von den "Aussagen über kriminelle ausländische Jugendliche, die ganz entschieden die Grenze zum offenen Ressentiment, wenn nicht versteckten Rassismus überschritten haben", die Aussagen sind gemeint, nicht die kriminellen Jugendlichen. Der Herr findet, man müsse den Blick einmal umdrehen und sich fragen: "In welcher Atmosphäre wachsen ausländische Jugendliche auf?"

Nicht der Täter, das Opfer ist schuld!

Auf diese Frage könnte man antworten: Umgeben von Sozialarbeitern, Bewährungshelfern und Integrationsbeauftragten, die den Jugendlichen zuerst einreden, dass sie diskriminiert werden, um ihnen dann als Reha-Maßnahme eine Ausbildung zum Rapper zu ermöglichen. Aber der Herr gibt eine andere Antwort: Der Rentner in der Münchner U-Bahn, "der sich das Rauchen verbeten und damit den Auslöser gegeben hat zu einer zweifellos nicht entschuldigbaren Tat", war nur das letzte Glied in einer langen Kette von Gängelungen, Ermahnungen, Anquatschungen, die der Ausländer ständig zu erleiden hat. "Und nicht nur der Ausländer. Letztlich zeigt der deutsche Spießer ... überall sein fürchterliches Gesicht". Das sei "die Atmosphäre der Intoleranz, vor deren Hintergrund man Gewalttaten spontaner Natur beachten muss"."
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RE: Hessen/Niedersachsen Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:53 pm



Quoting Columba (Reply 17):
Nicht der Täter, das Opfer ist schuld!

Bloedsinn. Of course the Taeter ist schuld.

However, a criminal is not just the result of his DNA but of his life experiences. I lived in (West-)Berlin for approximately three decades, and I see that most of my friends (many of whom have a Migrationshintergrund) are law-abiding tax payers (some have even become citizens); and the only Sozialarbeiter we ever saw were the few of us who chose that career, and that usually meant working with Neonazis in Lichtenberg.

In fact, the only friends from my childhood who ever came into conflict with the law were ethnic Germans, born and raised in the Bundesrepublik. That, however, is an aspect we are blissfully ignoring in the debate as white-collar-crime is sooo unspectacular, as there isn't blood splattered all over the subway walls... who wants to talk about such boring stuff over the fifth Molle am Stammtisch?
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PanHAM
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:22 pm



Quoting TransIsland (Reply 16):
By admitting that many members of the SED only joined that party in order to avoid being penalised in the GDR

You had to be a member of the SED just to get the chance of higher education for your children or a better job for yourself.
Blame the people who signed and became "Mitlaeufer" but in that respect the GDR was worse than the National Socialists, they had more time as well, admitted. You know as well that there are other opinions on Kiesinger and Filbinger as well and that both have been defamed over the years. But that would go too far off topic.

Now, when you have a history degree, why do you use undemocratic methods of putting something into poeples mouth that they haven't said? How can you figure out what Roland Koch thinks?

Did you ever meet him? Did you talk to him? Did you listen to what he said? I guess not. I live in his constituency, I am active in the CDU and I met him many times over the past 12 or so years. The person is completely different than his publicised image.

He is one of the best assets we have in German politics. He outclasses most of the active SPD brass by lenghts and that is exactly his proplem. He is too good and he is not on the left, so he has to be put down by all means.

The defamation campaign that started against Koch when he dared to start a debate about juvenile crime in Germany (not by juvenile immigrants) was - to make an understatement - unfair.

Mrs Yps could tell lies at random -. the number of Policemen she claimed where on the paper but never a reality. och added 1231 policemen in the past 9 years - still - the media never transpoirted this and kept to Ypsilantis lies. Just to menton one.

Or - back to the runway
.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):

She does. You only choose to either ignore it or flaty dismiss it without seriously checking the proposals' feasibili

No, she did not. She again did not give a clear answer in Thursday's Elephanterunde on HR3. She doies not have a clear answer on anything including that she does not say how to finance her prgram.

Those are facts. If she had clearly said that she supports the building permitt for the new runway and ould make sure that her potential coalition partners ahgree as well, I would applaud her.. Instead, she navigates in shallow waters, or to say it in German - sie eiert rum.
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TransIsland
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:30 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
Now, when you have a history degree, why do you use undemocratic methods of putting something into poeples mouth that they haven't said? How can you figure out what Roland Koch thinks?

I will leave your gross simplifications of the SED and Nazi eras alone. It is apparent that you are not prepared to question your party line.

As for the latter... you have got to be joking. The man is running for PUBLIC office and is therefore making PUBLIC statements. If he doesn't want to be interpreted, he ought to retire to private life.

But why don't you explain why it's "Ypsilanti, Al-Wazir & Kommunisten" instead of "SPD, Gruene & Linke"?
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:11 pm



Quoting TransIsland (Reply 20):
But why don't you explain why it's "Ypsilanti, Al-Wazir & Kommunisten" instead of "SPD, Gruene & Linke"?

 checkmark   checkmark  way to go ! I usually try to have in some way the same discussions as you have with this guys , but it's a bit difficult for me to get all my arguments in English and "on Paper" ...  Wink


Wenn einem die Felle davon schwimmen kommt man mit solch absurden Argumenten !

You will never see Lafontaine or Gysi discussing on such a low level as the other Parties are doing , always the same crap : Communists ! SED ! NPD=Linke ! etc etc , this is how people react when there are no logical Arguments anymore on your side .


Constantin
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HT
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:21 pm



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 13):
The first "Hochrechnungen" will be starting 17:30 in Hessen Rundfunk ...

Do the polling stations close in Hessia half an hour earlier than in Lower Saxony ?
First forecasts for Lower Saxony will be published at 1800h sharp (based on interviews conducted with voters), as it is illegal to post any forecast on the election day before the poll stations are closed.
-HT
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columba
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:46 pm



Quoting TransIsland (Reply 18):
However, a criminal is not just the result of his DNA but of his life experiences. I lived in (West-)Berlin for approximately three decades, and I see that most of my friends (many of whom have a Migrationshintergrund) are law-abiding tax payers (some have even become citizens); and the only Sozialarbeiter we ever saw were the few of us who chose that career, and that usually meant working with Neonazis in Lichtenberg.

Nobody said that all immigrants are criminals or that they are no foreigners who are law-abiding tax payers or that german teenagers don´t robe or steal and commit battery but sadly it is fact that most juvenile criminals in Berlin have either a turkish or arabic background.
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:58 pm



Quoting Columba (Reply 23):
Nobody said that all immigrants are criminals or that they are no foreigners who are law-abiding tax payers or that german teenagers don´t robe or steal and commit battery but sadly it is fact that most juvenile criminals in Berlin have either a turkish or arabic background.

I agree with you on this , whether you like it or not reality is reality and most of this Teenagers are of an Immigrant background , but this is not the main Problem , an Immigrant background won't make you criminal , the reality is that immigrants have a far lower standard of living , and low standard of living produces this teenagers , if this guys had really prospects for live and they would feel needed they'd not act like this

On the other side I've a very conservative way of thinking : If you don't have a German Passport and you hit a Teacher into his face , you've to go to turkey with the next Plane and never be allowed to come back ... eine Gratwanderung !


Constantin
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:59 pm

30 Minutes for the first Numbers !



Poor polling .. just 34,6 until 14:00 ... maybe it get's until 17:30 to ~65%



Constantin

[Edited 2008-01-27 08:02:56]
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Rara
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:36 pm

Looking forward to remove the Koch scum from the fair state of Hesse!  Smile My money is on a red-yellow-green coalition in Hesse with the socialists in the parliament, and no changes in Niedersachsen.

Everyone have a suspenseful election night!
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TransIsland
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:44 pm



Quoting Columba (Reply 23):

You're still not listening. I am not saying that this isn't the case, however, the socio-economic background has to be taken into consideration, and that is something that is also the responsibility of society as a whole.

But if you want to enter into this debate, please...

"In der neunjährigen Regierungszeit der CDU kennen wir nur Mittelkürzungen und Stellenstreichungen, insbesondere im Bereich der schulischen und der außerschulischen Jugend- und Sozialarbeit, des Sicherheitsdienstes und der Justiz." ("In the nine years of the CDU's government, all we've experienced are cuts in the budgets and personell, especially in the area of youth and social work programmes in as well as outside the schools, the security services and the justice system.") http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,531266,00.html

It's not like Law-And-Order-Roland hasn't already had nine years to shape Hessian policy. The crime statistics, however, are not in his favour (http://www.polizei.hessen.de/internetzentral/nav/455/45570ee1-825a-f6f8-6373-a91bbcb63046&uCon=d20603c2-d2fb-fffa-4684-51611142c388&uTem=bff71055-bb1d-50f1-2860-72700266cb59.htm).

They also show that, while foreigners are represented disproportionately high, the majority of these foreigner already have no legal status in Germany (residency permits, "Aufenthaltsgenehmigung").

However, I am not willing to build an argument on that right now, I am certainly not going to pretend that I am an expert on Hessian crime, and we all know that there are lies, damn lies and then they're statistics.

Aber bitte, lasst doch die Kirche im Dorf.

Quoting Columba (Reply 23):
but sadly it is fact that most juvenile criminals in Berlin have either a turkish or arabic background.

Can't find anything in the official Berlin crime statistics to verify that.

http://www.berlin.de/imperia/md/cont...iken_2006/lagebild_bln_bb_2006.pdf
http://www.berlin.de/imperia/md/cont...taetsstatistiken_2006/pks_2006.pdf

1. In organised crime, German suspects outnumber Turkish suspects by a factor greater than 5x.

2. "Intensivtaeter" (10 or more criminal offenses during the calendar year):
Germans 69.1%
Turks 18.9%
Poles 14.5%
Vietnamese 8.4%

"Arabs" don't appear in this list.

3. juvenile group violence

Ethnic & National Germans 55.3%
German Citizens of Non-German Ethnic Origin 24%
Turkish Nationals 11%
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Rara
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:27 pm

And thus endeth the reign of Koch!!

 bigthumbsup   bigthumbsup   bigthumbsup 

What a relief... a good result for Hesse and an even better result for Germany. Let this be clear to all: in Germany, you don't win an election with xenophobia and racism.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
aloges
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:30 pm



Quoting Rara (Reply 28):
And thus endeth the reign of Koch!!

Just hold your horses until the official results are in.  Wink I wish for that as much as you do, but it's not definite yet.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
TransIsland
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:35 pm



Quoting Rara (Reply 28):
And thus endeth the reign of Koch!!

I take it you're watching ARD? My mother is, and she just phoned sounding rather euphoric. However, their Internet stream is too unstable, so I'm stuck on ZDF, and here we currently have a stalemate. I'm reasonably hopeful, though, that there will be a Hessian Ministerpraesidentin soon.
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racko
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:00 pm

No matter how it ends, this won't change: Hesse gave Roland Koch a huge punch in his damn face!
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:22 pm

Yeahhh !! 5% in Hessen and 7.2 in Niedersachsen ! That's great !!

And Koch is away !!! This is a good day for Germany !

Next Minister in Hessen : Ypsilanti ! Way to go !!

Constantin  hyper   hyper 
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LTU932
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:43 pm



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 32):
Yeahhh !! 5% in Hessen and 7.2 in Niedersachsen

So much for my faith in the German people. Goddamn communists.  Yeah sure

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 32):
Next Minister in Hessen : Ypsilanti ! Way to go

Wrong. According to current Hochrechnungen, it's a dead heat. Koch can still manage to get re-elected. As they say in the US, the result is too close to call.
 
TransIsland
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:50 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 33):
So much for my faith in the German people. Goddamn communists.

Please do us all a favour, and arrive in the 21st century. The Cold War is over, the "commies" lost... nobody denies that, but there still are - and always be - people who believe in a democratically presented left agenda.
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DAL767400ER
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:56 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 33):
So much for my faith in the German people

I gave up faith in German people when the SED was first voted into Berlin's Senate. Shows that despite people supposedly not believing politicians anymore, a good percentage still believe the utter bullcrap and impossible-to-finance promises the SED is making.

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 34):
people who believe in a democratically presented left agenda.

An agenda such as "Adequate financial support for everyone", "standard minimum wages", "free education for everyone" and stuff like that? Just so you know, that's what the SED promised folks in the GDR as well, and look where that led them.
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:03 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 33):
So much for my faith in the German people. Goddamn communists. Yeah sure

Believe me , the last thing I would ever be is a Communist ! It's extreme Populistic who you and other are acting , I'm for a Social capitalism , but SOCIAL !


Constantin
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TransIsland
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:14 pm



Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 35):
An agenda such as "Adequate financial support for everyone", "standard minimum wages", "free education for everyone" and stuff like that? Just so you know, that's what the SED promised folks in the GDR as well, and look where that led them.

Oh, right, I forgot... Conservatives NEVER make empty promises.... "Wiedervereinigung ohne Steuererhoehungen," "bluehende Landschaften."

The problem isn't what the Left is saying, the problem is that nobody else is willing to even consider issues and problems that haunt the less fortunate part of Germany's society. "Free education" worked in West Germany for a very long time, too. How much do you think Helmut Kohl and Roland Koch paid for theirs? It's a question of political will.
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LTU932
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:16 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
Fact is, organisations like the Ost CDU and the Ost FDP had no own power,could not make own decisions and had to do what the few people who owned the GDR forced them to do. I doubnt, that most of the GDR dissidents joined the CDU if that what you say here would hold up to the truth.

Those parties were known as Blockparteien in the so-called DDR because they were part of the so-called Anti-fascist block. Basically, they were only there to consolidate the power, because they were forced to accept the SED dictatorship and were used by the SED to transmit certain parts of the SED to their particular groups. In a nutshell, the Ost-CDU and Ost-FDP were forced at gunpoint to accept the SED's Machtanspruch until they finally started to distance themselves from them in the late 1980's, when it was clear that the SED's stranglehold under Honecker was loosening, especially with Gorbachev in power and the policies of Perestroika and Glasnost taking a hold of all Soviet satellite states.

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 36):
It's extreme Populistic who you and other are acting

Populistic? Look who's talking, you also like a certain populist dictator somewhere in South America. Don't come with me with populist. I'm more someone who prefers a dose of common sense than to listen to the left wing movements that are surging all over the world.

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 36):
I'm for a Social capitalism , but SOCIAL !

We already have that, it's called Soziale Marktwirtschaft and was created by Ludwig Erhard, who is (you guessed) a CDU politician. What the SED is suggesting is to go back to a centralist, government controlled economy which, as history has shown, is a recipe for bankruptcy.
 
TransIsland
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:00 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 38):
Ost-CDU and Ost-FDP were forced at gunpoint to accept the SED's Machtanspruch

Is that the new, accepted version of conservative apologetics as far as the Aufarbeitung of GDR history goes? ROFL.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 38):
We already have that, it's called Soziale Marktwirtschaft and was created by Ludwig Erhard, who is (you guessed) a CDU politician.

"Have" is incorrect. "Had" is more like it. ("Is" is also wrong.. you really ought to learn about the past tense.) And just because any one party did something right a few generations ago, does not mean voters should blindly trust them for all time to come. The "buergerliche Lager" has long abandoned social justice.
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:11 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 38):

We already have that, it's called Soziale Marktwirtschaft and was created by Ludwig Erhard, who is (you guessed) a CDU politician. What the SED is suggesting is to go back to a centralist, government controlled economy which, as history has shown, is a recipe for bankruptcy.

I admire Erhard very much , but if he knew what's going on he " würde sich im Grab umdrehen !"


Constantin
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DAL767400ER
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:14 pm

Damn, Hessen really is a close call now. Per ARD, it's 36.6% (CDU) vs 36.9% (SPD), and per ZDF its 36.6% vs 37.2%.
Any coalitioning will be interesting to witness. The SPD had said they don't want to cooperate with Die Linke, but without them Red/Green wouldn't have the majority.
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:19 pm



Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 41):
The SPD had said they don't want to cooperate with Die Linke

Do you really believe that ? I'm pretty sure that at the end we'll see a red-red-green coalition ... Van ooyyen ( right written ?) has already said that he'll support Ypsilanti .


Constantin
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DAL767400ER
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:24 pm



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 42):
Do you really believe that ?

Just like I believe the Linke when they say that they can make all their promises happen  Wink .
 
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LTU932
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:35 pm



Quoting TransIsland (Reply 39):
And just because any one party did something right a few generations ago, does not mean voters should blindly trust them for all time to come. The "buergerliche Lager" has long abandoned social justice.

Of course now, but he doesn't realise that in his hate for the CDU, they must have done something right, otherwise we'd be a shadow of what we'd be today. It is he who blindly trusts the Linkspartei despite its prior history as Sozalistische Einheitspartei Deutschlands. Given my recent failure of electing a proper chancellor 6 years ago, I'm as untrusting with political parties as I can be.
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:05 pm

Good speech !

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Stratofish
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:46 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 44):
Of course now, but he doesn't realise that in his hate for the CDU, they must have done something right, otherwise we'd be a shadow of what we'd be today. It is he who blindly trusts the Linkspartei despite its prior history as Sozalistische Einheitspartei Deutschlands. Given my recent failure of electing a proper chancellor 6 years ago, I'm as untrusting with political parties as I can be.

So you realise in your blind hatred of anything "social" and "left" that some ppl dont fall for populistic bs of a guy who had his chance for a (far too) long time. Btw, remember how he got to power..?

And like it or not but the Lefties have a far grater member base and supporters than those who were in SED ranks. About time you return to your hometown and see just how badly the CDU has screwed and lied to the ppl here. ...now that I think of it, stay where you are, please.

And although I probably will not vote for them I don't like how The Linke is being treated by the other parties. By now they are just as democratic as the other parties (and if you aver had a look inside of the German parties you'd know they, in reality, are about as democratic as the Democratic Republic of Congo), and by just ignoring and denouncing them they put the political environment (our polity) at risk.
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DAL767400ER
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:51 pm



Quoting Stratofish (Reply 46):
About time you return to your hometown and see just how badly the CDU has screwed and lied to the ppl here.

Yeah, because we all know that the SPD has done such an excellent job in Hamburg. After all, there's nothing like leading a city for 44 years, and have the city bleed millions of Euros every single friggin year  Yeah sure . Has the CDU lied to the people? Of course they have, that's what politicians do, but at least they have managed to turn the financials of this city around, they have pushed ahead important projects, and they are putting a focus on making Hamburg a more globally known city.
 
TransIsland
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:03 pm



Quoting Stratofish (Reply 46):
Btw, remember how he got to power..?

Ah, I remember the lovely Unterschriftensammlung gegen die doppelte Staatsbuergerschaft. That made many people feel really welcome in Germany. (And like it or not, but without many, many foreigners the German economy would be 100% screwed.)
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LTU932
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RE: Hesse/Lower Saxony Elections Thread

Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:08 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 47):
Yeah, because we all know that the SPD has done such an excellent job in Hamburg. After all, there's nothing like leading a city for 44 years, and have the city bleed millions of Euros every single friggin year

Not to mention that during the 90's, Hamburg was literally on the verge of bankruptcy (or so said the media back in the day). Just imagine what would have happened if an entire city would have filed for Konkurs/Insolvenz.  Wow!

I join you by saying that I'd rather have our current mayor around and that the city has cash and a healthy city-state economy than be on the brink of bankruptcy again.

[Edited 2008-01-27 14:09:16]

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