Flighty
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CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:25 pm

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...0127181914.e1z8r2hd&show_article=1

"They had small means and big hopes of owning a house. But African-Americans snared in the US mortgage crisis have seen the American dream turn into a nightmare many call "financial apartheid."

The storm triggered by risky "subprime" loans has left many in ruins, forced out of their modest homes and furious at falling victim to financial dealings that have taken a particular toll on minority families.

"People of color are more than three times more likely to have subprime loans," concluded the organization United for a Fair Economy in a recent report which estimated that minorities have seen between 163 billion and 278 billion dollars of their equity go up in smoke since 2000. "


This is complete hogwash IMO. Banks are the ones negatively affected by this crisis. If you can't pay your mortgage, don't buy a house. Go rent an apartment.

People want it both ways. They want super-low payments of exotic ARM mortgages, but they don't want to actually pay the mortgage adjustment. Any way you slice it, these people ("apartheid" shouters) are asking for homes without paying for them.

I feel sorry for the bankers who have lost tens of billions (approaching $100B) on this. Home prices got bid up to prices people cannot afford. In effect these ARM products raised home prices, even in poor neighborhoods. Bankers did NOT know this would blow up in their own faces, costing billions. Why blame them for putting people in houses?

Simultaneously, people are starting to whine that it is "too difficult" for poor people to win approval for home mortgages. Well gee, suddenly it's a human rights issue. Jesus H Christ. You want a cheap house, you want a mortgage, but you blame the BANK for selling you a house you could not afford. I just can't fathom it.

Banks should air some commercials on TV. "You may be mad about losing your home... well... SHUT THE HELL UP. We lost $18 billion dollars because of your sorry asses. You think we're happy? We're Citi Group (TM)."
 
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yowza
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Aparthei

Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:42 pm



Quoting Flighty (Thread starter):

This is complete hogwash IMO

I'm assuming you don't have a finance background. This issue is far more complex than your post suggests. It's an all round bad situation, both those of modest income and the lending institutions are suffering. So... where do you think this problem was born?

YOWza
 
JGPH1A
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:48 pm



Quoting Flighty (Thread starter):
I feel sorry for the bankers who have lost tens of billions (approaching $100B) on this.

Boohoo. 18bn is a drop in the bucket for banks, they probably took a while to even notice. Look at Societe Generale and their 4.9bn euro fraud - they just went out and raised 5bn in capital from other banks to cover it. Never ever feel sorry for a bank. Bankers never go hungry.

Quoting Flighty (Thread starter):
We lost $18 billion dollars because of your sorry asses

Again, I don't think any bankers actually lost their homes because of this loss. The ones who suffer are the ones sold these dodgy loans. Yes it takes two to make a bad or stupid loan, the lender and the borrower - the blame here does not lie solely with the homeowners.
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Flighty
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:17 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 2):
Again, I don't think any bankers actually lost their homes because of this loss.

Not one person lost "their" home over this. That would be robbery.

Instead, banks have bought many homes and been burned in the process. People lived in the bank's homes without paying for them.

The bankers essentially tricked each other. Some got away clean. Others got royally screwed (i.e., the shareholders of banks such as myself). I got screwed.

Do I feel sorry for people who got crap loans? Yes, sometimes. But if you are a fool, you will eventually spend your money foolishly. It is impossible to become financially secure if you are a complete fool. That is the problem for them. Preying on grandmothers is an age-old activity. There is absolutely nothing new about ARMs. They have always been a bad idea, but now we have the data to prove it.

Banks won't make the same mistake again.

And indeed, banks really did screw up. The over-valued these mortgages to the extent that it was too enticing to loan to the wrong people. That was wrong. Instead, those loan applicants should have been rejected. And in turn, prices in bad neighborhoods would have fallen. Then people would have been approved at cheaper prices, and this "crisis" would have been avoided. But banks got greedy, and screwed each other.

I am not sure any regulation of the "sub-prime" market is necessary. There is no motive to "trick" people into mortgages they cannot afford because banks pay dearly for it. Banks hate to foreclose. It is truly the last resort. Banks get virtually nothing for these bad-neighborhood houses. They go on the auction block and banks cut loose for far under fair value.

One innovation we may potentially see is banks actually writing off part of the debt of the borrower in lieu of actual foreclosure. Although it sets a horrible precedent for further abuse / lawsuits against banks, such negotiations would keep people in "their" homes since, although they can't pay the original loan, they are still better than the (catastrophic) losses associated with foreclosure. Those are essentially a 100% writeoff. Most of these people live in houses worth next to nothing. Bank labor / paperwork costs can equal the value of these homes, at $30k in some cases. So banks may prefer to avoid the hassle and cut the mortgage by 1/2. Very sticky situation however.

Lastly, for every "poor soul" who gets kicked out of "their" house, another "lucky person" will move in. Generally. The real estate market will clear up. It always does. And all those houses will be lived in once again. There is nothing wrong with evicting a squatter. You get a lot of notice before the bank forecloses. And another, more deserving person will take your place.

So what is the solution... naturally, banks will place lower value (and higher expected default risk) on these ARM assets going forward. So, they will be disinclined to make these loans ever again. So, the problem is already solved. Lesson learned. We could outlaw ARM mortgages outright, that is another possibility. But it will hardly be necessary now.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:21 pm



Quoting Flighty (Reply 3):
the shareholders of banks such as myself). I got screwed.

Yes, you did. That is the other half of this whole mess. It's not just the homeowners, the shareholders take it in the shorts too - but no doubt the CEO of Citi Group will be taking his multi-squillion dollar performance bonus this year same as usual. It's not HIS money, after all - it's yours. That's capitalism, baby. Those in charge seldom suffer if they screw up.
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Falcon84
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:26 pm



Quoting Flighty (Thread starter):
Banks are the ones negatively affected by this crisis.

Banks aren't losing in the long run, Flighty. People are losing. Banks will simply get more money from the government, and they'll write off all this subprime bullshit they've been feeding us. PEOPLE will get hurt the most. People who trusted banks and lending institutions that they would not deliberately put them in a bad situation.

You want ME to cry for the banks, who made billions on that bullshit banking bill that passed a few years back, that gave them windaflls? Sorry, pal, you're barking up the wrong tree.

You got screwed, because you're a shareholder, but you don't obviously give a shit about the thousands upon thousands who lost more than you EVER could in this banking crisis.
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RJdxer
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:30 pm

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Flighty
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:31 pm



Quoting YOWza (Reply 1):
'm assuming you don't have a finance background. This issue is far more complex than your post suggests. It's an all round bad situation, both those of modest income and the lending institutions are suffering. So... where do you think this problem was born?

My background has its strengths and weaknesses. As I understand it, small banks discovered a thriving market for poor quality mortgage assets. They proceeded to link many of our country's poorer people into these high-risk-for-banks loans. It was also "high risk" for customers in the same way drinking and driving is high risk. That's why normal people try not to do that.

Americans are well known for taking on as much debt as possible. This is risky and carries consequences. Now we are hearing complaints about those consequences, whereas the customers are actually not bearing the capital loss. They are running away, while the banks ought to throw them in debtor's prison. It is impossible for banks to pursue damages against these scofflaw people. Instead, banks must divest of these houses at a loss. That's no good for banks.

People who re-financed their homes to get $50k to spend on trinkets and vacations are also getting burned. As they should. They bet their homestead on a very iffy proposition.

Local bankers didn't care about the long term risk because they knew they could flip these loans to Citi or Deutche Bank. So that was the disconnect. If the big holding banks really knew how crappy these assets were (which they ought to have known), then this viscious circle wouldn't have happened.

Ultimately I do blame those large banks for not doing proper simulations of the effects of interest rates on the ARM population. They were trusting that uneducated people were somehow wise enough to make sure their loans were sensible in the face of future risks. Meanwhile, the borrowers (generally also inept) trusted that the bank was being street smart. Ultimately, nobody was street smart. The banks made a mistake in not digging into their derivatives.

Greenspan gave a famous speech in 1999 about the dangers of opaque derivatives that were not properly understood. It seems he was right. Banks have always known the risk profile of ARMs. You can't let people stretch their way into an ARM because they will default when rates rise. But by consolidating these puppies, I guess banks tricked each other. Deutche Bank assumed banks in Cleveland had done their due diligence. But nobody had. So Cleveland got away clean, while banks in NYC and worldwide paid the price.

CLE borrowed a lot of money that they don't intend to pay back. Instead, people like me, Germans, Japanese will pay the price. It was our money and our houses. Regards.
 
RJdxer
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:38 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
People who trusted banks and lending institutions that they would not deliberately put them in a bad situation.

Do you step off the curb without looking trusting that the bus driver won't run you down? Do you change lanes while driving trusting that the person in the other lane will let you in? Where does personal responsibility fall in the making of a home loan? When is it the buyers responsibility to say, I don't understand this and it's a lot of money, maybe I'd better ask for some advice?
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halls120
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:40 pm



Quoting YOWza (Reply 1):
This issue is far more complex than your post suggests. It's an all round bad situation, both those of modest income and the lending institutions are suffering. So... where do you think this problem was born?

In the greed of buyers, sellers, mortgage brokers and appraisers. They are all guilty.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Flighty
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:42 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
Banks will simply get more money from the government,

Yes and that's an absolute crime. I agree that banks should pay a heavy price for their stupidity. The Feds should not bail out these banks. Let them drown. The US banking sector is very strong and this is not 1929. A few of the dumbest banks should be allowed to quit.

By the same token, people should not be given a free house. Maybe a one-time amnesty on these ARMs, getting poeple into a more sensible type of loan. But don't go overboard. I do not want someone else getting a sweet deal just because they signed an insane ARM, can't afford to refinance, lost their job etc. Yes, they are people. People exist all over.

I am a person too and nobody is giving me a free house. And furthermore I don't call lendingtree.com or whatever. Enticing TV ads for refinances proved to be very unhealthy. People just don't have any idea. They are shocked that when you borrow a bunch of money, spend it on BS, and default youend up with nothing. Duh. Your assets are gone because you spent them. In retrospect banks were capitalizing on the most "senseless" people with those TV ads. And then selling those loans to Deutche Bank. Who got burned, basically just Deutche Bank in the end.

So Greenspan was right... haha
 
JGPH1A
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:51 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 6):
http://www.charliekeating.com/enquirer0206.pdf

Exactly. Even in prison they get fed.
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PPVRA
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Aparthei

Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:02 pm

Quoting Flighty (Thread starter):

Banks get billion-dollars bail-outs from the Federal Reserve and other central banks when they should be going bankrupt for poor decisions. People don't get them. [edit: just read your last post and I see you agree with this]

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 4):
That's capitalism, baby. Those in charge seldom suffer if they screw up.

They would, by going bankrupt. And since they aren't and they know they will get bail-outs I think Flighty is wrong in saying the following:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 3):
Banks won't make the same mistake again.

You get rid of market accountability and you screw up how the capitalist system is supposed to work. Big banks know they operate with a safety-net and thus are willing to take bigger risks than they probably should.

[Edited 2008-01-27 15:06:10]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Falcon84
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:43 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 8):
Do you step off the curb without looking trusting that the bus driver won't run you down?

That means nothing. That's just rhetoric. You can read all the fine print in the world, but there's a certain level of trust that people have to put into bankers, into airline pilots, into anyone who is allegedly an expert in a given field. You're trying to absolve the banks of wrongdoing, and putting it all on the little guy. Sorry, but the little guy isn't the bank expert. The bank expert is the one who knows the true risk of what is going, and, in my view, the deliberately misled the public over sub prime, simply to make extra bucks. Now, you can sit there and suck on the collective coin rolls of the banks, but they're the ones who offered the product, and they're the ones who should be held accountable for this mess, not the average Joe.
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Falcon84
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:50 pm



Quoting Flighty (Reply 10):
By the same token, people should not be given a free house.

They weren't. They paid mortgages on it. It's not their fault the banks deliberately put out a product they knew would be risky, and could bring the whole market down.

Which is why when I hear Rudy Giuliani and Ron Paul speak of less regulation on industries like banks, I have to laugh my head off. They nead MORE, not less. They obviously cannot be trusted with the public trust, as they're too fucking greedy to do so. Less regulation? After this fiasco?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 10):
And furthermore I don't call lendingtree.com or whatever.

Too bad. I do. I've done it before-I just did it today, in fact. What the hell is wrong with calling them anyway?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 10):
People just don't have any idea.

That's right-they don't! And that's why, in the end, they have to put their trust in a professional who supposedly won't steer them wrong, and won't deliberately put them out on a limb over a cliff, like these banks did to these people.
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RJdxer
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:40 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
That means nothing.

It means everything. When does personal responsibility begin?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
You can read all the fine print in the world, but there's a certain level of trust that people have to put into bankers, into airline pilots, into anyone who is allegedly an expert in a given field.

That's why you get the opinion of a third party, like a lawyer. If you can't afford the lawyer, you probably can't afford the house. An airline pilot is different. That takes physical skill as well as the understanding of a complicated machine. Totally different.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Sorry, but the little guy isn't the bank expert.

Nor should he or she be expected to be. That is why you get a lawyer.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Now, you can sit there and suck on the collective coin rolls of the banks, but they're the ones who offered the product, and they're the ones who should be held accountable for this mess, not the average Joe.

So the average Joe has no personal responsibility to make sure they can afford the loan at the beginning, as well as at ARM adjustment time? There should be no consequence for them taking out a loan without understanding exactly what the terms were? So no accountability for the average Joe, that makes sense.
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PPVRA
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Aparthei

Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:24 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):

That means nothing. That's just rhetoric. You can read all the fine print in the world, but there's a certain level of trust that people have to put into bankers, into airline pilots, into anyone who is allegedly an expert in a given field. You're trying to absolve the banks of wrongdoing, and putting it all on the little guy. Sorry, but the little guy isn't the bank expert. The bank expert is the one who knows the true risk of what is going, and, in my view, the deliberately misled the public over sub prime, simply to make extra bucks. Now, you can sit there and suck on the collective coin rolls of the banks, but they're the ones who offered the product, and they're the ones who should be held accountable for this mess, not the average Joe.

You know I agree with this. But you need to understand what led banks to this, because it is the FED who put banks in this position with artificially low interest rates. Regulation will only tinker with symptoms not fix the disease, and won't apply to other possible scenarios, possibly even hurt. What is needed is the other 'R'--reform.

[Edited 2008-01-27 17:51:34]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
EvilForce
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:26 am



Quoting Flighty (Thread starter):
"They had small means and big hopes of owning a house. But African-Americans snared in the US mortgage crisis have seen the American dream turn into a nightmare many call "financial apartheid."

The storm triggered by risky "subprime" loans has left many in ruins, forced out of their modest homes and furious at falling victim to financial dealings that have taken a particular toll on minority families.

 laughing   laughing  Somebody call the hyperbole police to ship this reporter off to Exageration-traz.

I love how these morons don't report on the 95% of sub-prime borrowers that haven't defaulted on their mortgage. Also, they act as if the homeowner was blameless in this entire dealio. These deadbeats quit paying their mortgages, thereby lost the rights to the house. Had they kept paying the mortgage, they'd still be able to live there. Give me a break.
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Pyrex
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:51 am

If they don't give out loans to people who are doubtful creditors they are being racist, an obstacle to their empowerment, yada yada, if they do give out these loans and they end up defaulting it's the bank's faults for creating an apartheid? Damn, they just don't seem to get a break.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 9):
In the greed of buyers, sellers, mortgage brokers and appraisers. They are all guilty.

 checkmark 

Speakinf of greed, a few weeks ago, while we are knee-deep in this mess, TLC or one of those reality TV channels was airing a program called "Flip It" or something like that about people who buy a run-down house (on borrowed money, of course), renovate it and sell it for a small fortune a few months later, glorifying this behavior. Unqualified "investors" spending tons of money on very expensive, very illiquid assets is what caused this trouble.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 12):
Banks get billion-dollars bail-outs from the Federal Reserve and other central banks

Hasn't happened yet - yes the FDIC is there as a last resort but when they do intervene generally they seize up the bank, the shareholders get nothing.
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cwapilot
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:52 am

The sections of a mortgage document explaining the costs, the payments that will be due and the payments that will be due after it adjusts (including the maximum the adjusted payments could be) are NOT in small print at all. In looking at ours, it is in very HUGE letters and set off in a box. It is in 3 different places and we had to initial in each of those places, in addition to the bottoms of the pages that had to have signatures. THAT is where personal responsibility should begin. Gee, if your payment is going to FREAKIN DOUBLE in 3 or 5 years, are you going to be able to afford it? If all your payments are going towards INTEREST in those first 3 to 5 years, is that really a deal you should take?

And do not forget, before you lay this all at the feet of George Bush (hell, if some of you trip over your own shoe lace, you blame him for not regulating the length of shoe laces, so why not?) that the incentives in place to offer these risky loans have their roots in a feel-good liberal social program of the Clinton administration which was claiming to "spread the stability of home ownership" to everybody. Incentives for institutions, and several enabling regulations for those who shouldn't get loans, like allowing them to use an "alternate credit history" to qualify for a loan. (i.e. submitting pay stubs and phone and utility bills instead of a credit report among other things, and not having to have any cash on hand) It sounded great at the time, didn't it...the nasty Republicans wanted to keep poor people from owning houses and St. William of Little Rock wanted to get everyone a house (...and a car, and a computer...). Well, it created a lot of "stability" didn't it? Banks previously had little or no incentive to grant these loans, and that was labeled as discrimination. It's kind of a slap in the face to those who were actually REALLY discrimintated against when red lines on maps were part of lending practice to call not being able to afford something discrimination.

Finally, where did these loans originate? Certainly not in the front offices of the most reputable banks. They were either in other companies specializing in this sort of loan, or offshoots or departments of the "reputable" banks. It takes a certain amount of sleaze to push people who wouldn't qualify for a loan to begin with, into loans that they obviously wouldn't be anywhere near able to pay after the various adjustments. What is also being missed are the people who qualify under normal conditions, but who have second and third mortgages because they can't stop using their credit cards...living beyond their means, and these same institutions providing them with and encouraging them to accept the means to do so.

So, as I see it, there are a lot of dirty hands in this: politicians, banks and irresponsible people. Yeah, the banks engaged in sleaze, but it was encouraged by the government, and I am sorry, but I am tired of people being able to blame others, especially the easy targets like the evil bankers, and claim that they didn't understand. If you can't understand, you have no business completing such a complex transaction in the first place. I could be sitting in a house that cost twice the one I settled on...I qualified based on alternate loan programs and tax abatements for an amount much higher than what I would qualify under normal conditions, and the payments would have been the same...until 5 years was up and the ARM adjusted and tax abatements ran out at the same time. It was right there, in black and white, what my payment would be...noting a lawyer would need to decipher. I got the "your income will be greater by then, you could refinance, etc, etc" speech, but I had the sense to say NO. So, I get to continue paying my mortgage while the people without the intelligence and self control to buy what they can afford, get to keep their giant homes they can't afford (or small homes they can't afford in any case) compliments of my taxes, and my (an every other responsible person's) banking costs going up in the long run...not to mention 401ks and IRAs losing value because of what these people have done to the market and property values plunging in areas where there are many foreclosures.

And, of course, where does everyone look for the solution? Back to the beginning: the government! Instead of letting the market correct itself, and because it's an election year, we have to prop up the collapsing house and enable peope to keep on living beyond their means. What happens 5 years from now when these same groups of people are in another hole? The government solution should be to close the floodgates...there should be no such thing as C rated loans in the housing markets. I have a hard time feeling sorry for anyone in this mess. I am pissed off at the banks for mismanaging our money and allowing this to happen.
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Falcon84
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:21 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 15):
It means everything. When does personal responsibility begin?

Where does the responsiblity of the LENDERS begin, RJ? They're putting out this crap that they KNOW is risky, but could make them tons of money up front. You seem to want to exonerate them completely.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 15):
Nor should he or she be expected to be. That is why you get a lawyer.

Bullshit. We shouldn't HAVE to have lawyers for everything. And you tell me how many Average Joe's can even afford a lawyer to look over everything? Give me a break.

You a right, they should not be expected to. Maybe then, just maybe, the lending institutions should take THEIR responsibility a little more seriously in not misrepresenting?
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ltbewr
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:25 am

In particular to Black and Hispanics being dispropotionaly hurt by the sub-prime mortgage crises, there are several key issues.
Many banks and other mortgage lenders were under pressure to make sure they didn't discriminate as to non-white mortgage applicants so may have been less strict on qualifications and ended up with a larger number of higher risk borrowers.
Many non-white and borderline qualifed borrowers might tend to purchase older homes in less desirable urban areas or older suburbs (higher proportion of lower income residents, higher crime, poorer quality schools, higher property taxes) that would be more quickly affected by downturn of market prices.
Many high risk borrowers may have had uninsured medical costs, jobs that are less stable as to income, are subject to drops in income or have benefits cost more out of pocket, or of higher risk of being shipped off to China or lower cost areas of the USA.

As to all high risk borrowers there were acts of deliberate fraud by applicants, mortgage brokers, and some banks just to make the quick buck on the fees, some didn't do their homework, got inflated valuations/apprasials/comparables.

What to do with the current crises? I do believe that for true mortgaged home residents some deals ought to be made to either transfer them to lower interest rates or allow them to rent the house at a reduced rate but still some mininum and a regular income status until the market improves in 1-2 years, and reapply for a mortgage then. That means more stability for the neighborhoods, property taxes will get paid, people have a place to live and the mortgage company will save money vs. forcloure. The Federal bankruptcy laws as to individuals should be returned to in part the previous laws so more can file for it.
Speculators and 'flippers' - screw them, they were highly responsible for the run up in home prices that is a part of this crises.
 
halls120
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:27 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 20):
Quoting RJdxer (Reply 15):
Nor should he or she be expected to be. That is why you get a lawyer.

Bullshit. We shouldn't HAVE to have lawyers for everything. And you tell me how many Average Joe's can even afford a lawyer to look over everything? Give me a break.

Well, when you are talking about spending six figures in the purchase of a home, spending a few hundred dollars for the services of a lawyer ought to be a no-brainer.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Falcon84
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:31 am



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 22):
Well, when you are talking about spending six figures in the purchase of a home, spending a few hundred dollars for the services of a lawyer ought to be a no-brainer.

Disagree. It shouldn't even be necessary.

Again, where is the responsibility for the lenders? Many of you, mostly the conservatives, put almost ALL the blame on those who simply want a decent life, and who were taken advantage of by these lenders with a product that wasn't what it seemed. They offered the product, the buck stops with them, I believe.
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EvilForce
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:02 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 20):
We shouldn't HAVE to have lawyers for everything. And you tell me how many Average Joe's can even afford a lawyer to look over everything? Give me a break.

We shouldn't need lawyers for anything. But we do. Plain and simple. Don't be a fool. If you can afford $ 250,000 for a house you can afford $ 300 or $ 400 for a lawyer. Those fees can be rolled into the closing costs / loan. Too stupid, too lazy, too cheap to get a lawyer? Tough shyte.
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halls120
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:07 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 23):


Quoting Halls120 (Reply 22):
Well, when you are talking about spending six figures in the purchase of a home, spending a few hundred dollars for the services of a lawyer ought to be a no-brainer.

Disagree. It shouldn't even be necessary.

Well, that's your choice. Not a wise one, IMHO.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 23):
Again, where is the responsibility for the lenders? Many of you, mostly the conservatives, put almost ALL the blame on those who simply want a decent life, and who were taken advantage of by these lenders with a product that wasn't what it seemed. They offered the product, the buck stops with them, I believe.

I don't put ALL the blame on the buyer. I think everyone bears a share of the blame for the current economic debacle.

But why you continually proclaim the "poor buyer" cry is puzzling. These are adults who are making arguably the most important financial decision of their lives, and to simply expect the other party to do the right thing is absurd.

Let me ask you a question. When you go down to the car lot to buy a car, do you place absolute trust that the dealer is going to treat you fairly?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Flighty
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:29 am



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 21):
Many non-white and borderline qualifed borrowers might tend to purchase older homes in less desirable urban areas or older suburbs (higher proportion of lower income residents, higher crime, poorer quality schools, higher property taxes) that would be more quickly affected by downturn of market prices.
Many high risk borrowers may have had uninsured medical costs, jobs that are less stable as to income, are subject to drops in income or have benefits cost more out of pocket, or of higher risk of being shipped off to China or lower cost areas of the USA.

That is correct. Calling something "racist" in America is strong language. Here, it is not really backed up by the facts. Blaming a bank for not lending you money is sort of ridiculous. If you are a qualified home buyer, any bank will lend you money. It hasn't been a problem. No bank refuses to loan to qualified black people. That would be extremely illegal. Practically a war crime in this country.

Lendingtree.com for what it's worth is probably fine. But those ads we used to see on television -- "Would you like $50,000 to spend on home repairs, massages or a long alcoholic vacation? Call this number!" Those ads are no longer seen on TV so much. They were home equity strippers who would give you money in exchange for refinancing plus new debt. Sometimes with ARM devices. Uh-oh....
 
PPVRA
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Aparthei

Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:30 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 18):

Hasn't happened yet - yes the FDIC is there as a last resort but when they do intervene generally they seize up the bank, the shareholders get nothing.

The ECB opened a $500 bi line of credit. It's a form of bail out. The Fed also did back in august.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/08/10/markets/rate_futures/index.htm

A lot of analyst that day were on TV calling it a bail out.

[Edited 2008-01-27 20:40:08]
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Falcon84
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:44 am



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 25):
These are adults who are making arguably the most important financial decision of their lives, and to simply expect the other party to do the right thing is absurd.

If the 'other party", i.e. the banks, can't do the right thing, they should be out of business. That's part of their job.
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Pyrex
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:50 am



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 27):
The ECB opened a $500 bi line of credit. It's a form of bail out. The Fed also did back in august.

Well, I wouldn't consider it a bail-out since in practice it is just injecting liquidity into a market (the money market) which had basically dried out due to investor fears. For the most part this is just short-term financing that was/will be repayed with interest when it matures. When I think of a bank bail-out I think about the Asian financial crisis of the 1990s (when half the banks went into government control) or the Savings&Loans crisis, but I guess this could be just terminology.

Now whether the interest rate cuts are a bailout for banks and other investors or a necessary measure to stimulate a declining economy, that is another (and interesting) discussion.
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RJdxer
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:59 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 20):
Where does the responsiblity of the LENDERS begin, RJ? They're putting out this crap that they KNOW is risky, but could make them tons of money up front. You seem to want to exonerate them completely.

They were offering a completely legal and legitimate loan. If you can show where anything they were doing was illegal, please do. Risk has nothing to do with it. If it did 401k's would not be legal.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 20):
We shouldn't HAVE to have lawyers for everything. And you tell me how many Average Joe's can even afford a lawyer to look over everything? Give me a break.

If you can't afford to have a lawyer look over loan papers and explain everything you don't understand about them, you probably can't afford the house. 2x I've said this.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 22):
Well, when you are talking about spending six figures in the purchase of a home, spending a few hundred dollars for the services of a lawyer ought to be a no-brainer.

Correct.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 23):
Disagree. It shouldn't even be necessary.

Yes it should, that way a disinterested third party can give advice to the "average" Joe that might make them stop and think about what they are about to do.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 23):
They offered the product, the buck stops with them,

Key word is "offered". No one forced the buyer to sign the papers.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 24):
Don't be a fool.

We can agree.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 28):
That's part of their job

And as Cwapilot attested to, they do. In LARGE letters in several different places. Plus they evidently make you initial that you understand just exactly what it is you are signing for. If that isn't a huge red flag warning for the buyer, then nothing is going to stop and make them think twice.
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jetjack74
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:28 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 20):
Where does the responsiblity of the LENDERS begin, RJ? They're putting out this crap that they KNOW is risky, but could make them tons of money up front. You seem to want to exonerate them completely.

It's buyer beware. Yes there does need to be some oversight, but you are the responsibility for what you sign. Many of those who're of disadvantaged finances, were eagar to sign something to get into a house. It's a temptation. For those who run up thousands in credit card debt, they're responsible for what they charge.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 23):
Many of you, mostly the conservatives, put almost ALL the blame on those who simply want a decent life, and who were taken advantage of by these lenders with a product that wasn't what it seemed. They offered the product, the buck stops with them, I believe.

Blaming everyone else again I see but those who signed for the loan. Glad to see you're in keeping with with left-wing tradition, blame everyone else but yourselves. Lovely Falcon, lovely.


This is nothing but some left-wing pandering bandwagon that Clinton, Obama and Edwards will no doubt jump on to with, ie; moratorium on foreclosures, adding another racial component. Gov't sticking their hands in something else. Why not halt trading at the NYSE to stop stocks from going down?
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EvilForce
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:02 am



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 31):
This is nothing but some left-wing pandering bandwagon that Clinton, Obama and Edwards will no doubt jump on to with, ie; moratorium on foreclosures, adding another racial component. Gov't sticking their hands in something else. Why not halt trading at the NYSE to stop stocks from going down?

Oh, you mean like this:

Quote:
The Bush administration has hammered out an agreement with industry to freeze interest rates for certain subprime mortgages for five years in an effort to combat a soaring tide of foreclosures, congressional aides said Wednesday.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/12/05/business/main3579673.shtml

Nice attempt to push your agenda with no basis in fact.
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jetjack74
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:13 am



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 32):
Nice attempt to push your agenda with no basis in fact.

I never said Bush was right. I reject the idea that this will do ANYTHING for the economy. A "bipartisan" stimulus package is nothing more than a handout.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 32):
Oh, you mean like this:

Actually, I was thinking something more like this:
Quoted from the Hillary08 website:
Hillary will challenge lenders and financial institutions to take three immediate steps today: 1) Voluntarily support a moratorium of at least 90 days on home foreclosures; 2) freeze the fluctuating rates on subprime loans for at least 5 years until they can be converted into fixed rate, affordable loans; 3) Require regular status reports on the progress they’re making in converting unworkable mortgages into loans families can afford so we have real accountability.

Call me evil for wanting the market to work itself the way economics were intended, but after all, you're the one with a username like "Evilforce".
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EvilForce
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:38 am



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 33):
Call me evil for wanting the market to work itself the way economics were intended, but after all, you're the one with a username like "Evilforce".

No, my point was to call you on your b.s. about trashing "the left" and pandering when the right wing has been every bit as populist regarding this.

Your attempt at making this an opportunity to spew your bile towards the left was noted, and challenged.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
checkraiser
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Aparthei

Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:00 am

The Truth In Lending Act requires full disclosure of all fees, worst case scenarios, etc... When I bought my place 20 months ago I remember the fees being VERY clearly explained, both verbally and in writing. I didn't need a lawyer to tell me what I was getting into.

Like Cwapilot, I remember both the Realtor and the broker trying to steer me into a more expensive house, by saying I didn't need 20% down, an ARM is more affordable, etc...

It sucks that those with no self-control are getting a pass. The government's meddling in these matters is giving Americans less and less incentive to be responsible.
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jetjack74
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:02 am



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 34):
Your attempt at making this an opportunity to spew your bile towards the left was noted, and challenged.

And i'm calling Falcon and his band useless disciples on his unoriginal blather by casually blaming everyone except those who signed their names on the dotted lines. The subprime lenders were well within their rights, (it is preditory lending) as there were no laws at the time. But none of these people can be held responsible for their own actions? So from now on, when a person commits a murder and is convicted, shall we put the town where Person X lives behind, while the murderer walks free? Becuase after all, in yours and Falcon's logic, it's everyone else to blame for this person commiting the murder. Had these people taken a few more minutes to READ what was on the documents they were signing, they might"ve been spared the foreclosure/repossesion. That's been my only point from the get-go.
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andessmf
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:33 am



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 36):
And i'm calling Falcon and his band useless disciples on his unoriginal blather by casually blaming everyone except those who signed their names on the dotted lines.

For those who don' t know, there is a website that has been covering this debacle for years:

http://thehousingbubbleblog.com/index.html

I have been a follower for 2.5 years, you guys are late to the party.

Falcon, perhaps in Ohio there are few greedy people since the price runup was not so bad. But in other places, fraud was rampant. Here is a good story to read about this, when individuals pick up several homes with no money down. When these idiots go down, I cheer.

http://bubbletracking.blogspot.com/2...or-downtown-san-diego-renters.html
http://bubbletracking.blogspot.com/2...alert-for-downtown-la-renters.html
 
N1120A
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:48 am



Quoting Flighty (Reply 7):
As I understand it, small banks discovered a thriving market for poor quality mortgage assets.

I wouldn't exactly call Countrywide small.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 7):
That's why normal people try not to do that.

"Normal" people? Are you insinuating that those with smaller incomes are not normal?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 15):

So the average Joe has no personal responsibility to make sure they can afford the loan at the beginning, as well as at ARM adjustment time?

The main problem here is two fold. First, in several highly populous parts of the country, housing prices raced up at many, many times the rate of inflation, while wages remained stagnant. That means having to take out loans at a significantly higher debt to income ratio and a significantly larger number of jumbo loans, which go out at a higher rate. The second is that adjustables were sold to people mostly under the impression that rates wouldn't climb through the roof on them.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 18):

Speakinf of greed, a few weeks ago, while we are knee-deep in this mess, TLC or one of those reality TV channels was airing a program called "Flip It" or something like that about people who buy a run-down house (on borrowed money, of course), renovate it and sell it for a small fortune a few months later, glorifying this behavior

Absolutely terrible. The rampant speculation in housing is the key to most of this mess.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 18):
Unqualified "investors" spending tons of money on very expensive, very illiquid assets is what caused this trouble.

I disagree. Those hurt by this mess are people who are buying houses to live in.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 20):
And you tell me how many Average Joe's can even afford a lawyer to look over everything?

Any person who can afford even an inexpensive 2 bedroom house can afford a lawyer to look over the papers.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 23):
It shouldn't even be necessary.

Um, so everyone should go to law school and specialize in real estate law? I would venture to say that every law school graduate on this site, including both Halls120 and I, would hire a real estate expert to take a look at the paperwork in any real estate purchase or loan we were taking on.
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miamiair
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:54 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 28):
If the 'other party", i.e. the banks, can't do the right thing, they should be out of business. That's part of their job.

This type of apathy and lack of ethics in corporate America is a sign of the times. People are greedy, they just want the $$$.

I caught the tail end of the segment 60 minutes last night. I don't know if I heard right, but the guy running the citi group bailed out with 29 million and the the guy at Merril Lynch took 161M as his compensation package. These crooks need to hung by the short hairs.

And so should the idiots that bought too much house/debt knowing they would struggle at best to make the payments.
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RJdxer
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:59 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
The main problem here is two fold.

I don't see either of those as a "problem". If the prices were rising tha fast, then the person taking out this type of loan should have had pause at just what they were getting into. As to the rate climbing, if the person taking out the loan didn't assume the worst, then shame on them. Just because someone offers a product doesn't necessarily mean you have to buy it.
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baroque
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:13 pm



Quoting Flighty (Reply 3):
Not one person lost "their" home over this. That would be robbery.

Instead, banks have bought many homes and been burned in the process.

So how are the robbery charging matching those for arson? How long do you get for burning a bank?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
You can read all the fine print in the world, but there's a certain level of trust that people have to put into bankers, into airline pilots, into anyone who is allegedly an expert in a given field. You're trying to absolve the banks of wrongdoing, and putting it all on the little guy.

Hopelessly idealistic Falcon84, wanting a world in which the fine print is not there to deceive you. As to the lawyers advice, ho hum. The only major mortgage fiasco where I have personal knowledge, it was the bloody lawyer for a (not for profit) school who triply mortgaged school properties and sent the school bankrupt. I was on the council of another school that felt obliged to take over and salvage what could be saved from the disaster.
 
N1120A
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:22 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 40):
If the prices were rising tha fast, then the person taking out this type of loan should have had pause at just what they were getting into.

Most had no other choice if they wanted to buy a house, which most people generally think is a good thing.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 40):
As to the rate climbing, if the person taking out the loan didn't assume the worst, then shame on them.

I don't think it is so much about assuming the worst as it is about getting sold on something they didn't know they couldn't pay for.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
halls120
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:55 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 28):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 25):
These are adults who are making arguably the most important financial decision of their lives, and to simply expect the other party to do the right thing is absurd.

If the 'other party", i.e. the banks, can't do the right thing, they should be out of business. That's part of their job.

No, it isn't. Banks are a business, not a public service. If the buyer can't take the time to read all the documentation that goes along with a home loan, or get someone to assist them in that task, they get what happens if things turn sour.

Again, these are adults who are making arguably the most important financial decision of their lives, and to simply expect the other party to do the right thing is absurd.

You didn't my question. When you go down to the car lot to buy a car, do you place absolute trust that the dealer is going to treat you fairly?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
The main problem here is two fold. First, in several highly populous parts of the country, housing prices raced up at many, many times the rate of inflation, while wages remained stagnant. That means having to take out loans at a significantly higher debt to income ratio and a significantly larger number of jumbo loans, which go out at a higher rate.

So who held the gun at the heads of the buyers and forced them to take on loans they couldn't afford?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
The second is that adjustables were sold to people mostly under the impression that rates wouldn't climb through the roof on them.

Given the history of adjustable loans in the seventies and eighties, anybody who didn't expect the same thing might happen again was simply ignorant.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
767Lover
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:15 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
The second is that adjustables were sold to people mostly under the impression that rates wouldn't climb through the roof on them.

If that is the case, then they sure as hell aren't aware that their property taxes will likely increase on them in the future, in many cases by a large margin. Or that the entire heating system might go out on them the next winter. Or that some type of development might go up next door that lowers their ability to sell the property in the future.

In fact, it seems that the likelihood of an adjustable rate mortage being adjusted in the future is really the only disclosed certainty in this whole transaction.
 
767Lover
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:26 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 39):
I caught the tail end of the segment 60 minutes last night. I don't know if I heard right, but the guy running the citi group bailed out with 29 million and the the guy at Merril Lynch took 161M as his compensation package. These crooks need to hung by the short hairs.

Countrywide's CEO is forfeiting $37.5 million of his package. Interesting how the concept of "personal responsibility" changes depending who you're referring to!

http://money.cnn.com/2008/01/28/news...p/index.htm?postversion=2008012803
 
miamiair
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:29 pm



Quoting 767Lover (Reply 45):
Interesting how the concept of "personal responsibility" changes depending who you're referring to!

Yes it is. Thanks for pointing that out.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
Pope
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:04 pm



Quoting Flighty (Thread starter):
People want it both ways. They want super-low payments of exotic ARM mortgages, but they don't want to actually pay the mortgage adjustment.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Quoting Flighty (Thread starter):
I feel sorry for the bankers who have lost tens of billions (approaching $100B) on this.

I disagree. Don't feel sorry for the bankers. They took a business risk and lost. That's the great thing about capitalism. With risk comes reward. The bankers got too greedy and thought that risk and reward had become disassociated. Eventually a free market corrects itself and that's exactly what happened.

Quoting Flighty (Thread starter):
We lost $18 billion dollars because of your sorry asses.

Wrong. Bankers lost because they incorrect analyzed the risk.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
They weren't. They paid mortgages on it. It's not their fault the banks deliberately put out a product they knew would be risky, and could bring the whole market down.

And how about the lawsuits that would have come if bank had not lended money to groups with traditionally higher default rates? Are you willing to give them blanket immunity from civil rights suit for redlining?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
They nead MORE, not less. They obviously cannot be trusted with the public trust, as they're too fucking greedy to do so. Less regulation? After this fiasco?

Banks aren't organs of the state? They are private enterprises. As for your regulation argument, can't you see that regulation is the root of these problems. Liberals praises Sarbanes-Oxley as the cure for dishonest corporate behavior in the post Enron world. As we've seen every rule can be broken. The banks are now paying for their stupidity. The more technical the regulation the easier it is to find a loophole.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 20):
Where does the responsiblity of the LENDERS begin, RJ? They're putting out this crap that they KNOW is risky, but could make them tons of money up front. You seem to want to exonerate them completely.

I for one don't exhonerate the banks at all. See above. A free market corrects itself. But all parties have to bear personal responsibility for their own shortcomings.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 20):
Bullshit. We shouldn't HAVE to have lawyers for everything. And you tell me how many Average Joe's can even afford a lawyer to look over everything? Give me a break.

First of all, when spending around $250,000 (the median house cost in the US), can you afford not to hire an attorney?

Second, forget attorneys, how many of these borrower even read the paperwork they signed. Are you saying that people shouldn't even read what they sign? Remember the Fair Housing Act already has a one page closing statement that is pretty straight forward.

Third, how many of these people even tried simple math. Take $250,000. Divide by 30 (30 year loan). That results in $8,333/year just for principal. Multiply $250,000 by the interest rate on the loan call it 6.5% that's $16,250 of interest in the first year for a total of $24,583 or $2,048 per month. Add in your taxes and insurance along with a couple hundred dollars for maintenance and you're easily at $3,000+/month or over $36,000. No attorney needed there.

Now, what percentage of the median household income is $36,000 a year. According to the US Census Bureau the median household income (2006) was $48,201. Meaning that the median family buying the median home was spending 74.46% of their gross earnings on housing if they bought a home with no or little money down. You don't need an attorney to figure that out. But people didn't want to do the math because they didn't want to see the result.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Pope
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:55 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
Most had no other choice if they wanted to buy a house, which most people generally think is a good thing.

Saving for retirement is also "a good thing". But since when does the end (a good thing) justify an abrogation of personal responsibility?

Under your logic someone who took out a home equity loan to invest in the stock market in order to fund retirement (a good thing) shouldn't be responsible for the consequence of their action as long as they didn't have any other choice toward funding their retirement. It's just nonsense.

Your argument also highlights a major error in the liberal thought process. The concept that one has no other choice at a particular point in time as an excuse for justifying bad decisions. Many people have no other choice at a particular moment precisely because of the bad decision they made earlier in their lives. The bad decision could have been to not study harder in school. To forego the XBox in order to save money. To not buy the nicer car when the older one they had could have kept running just fine. The fact of the matter is that most people are in the situation they are in because of the sum total of the decisions they have made in their lives.

With every decision comes a consequence. Liberals love to speak of freedom to chose but want to ignore the consequence of those decisions.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Flighty
Topic Author
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RE: CLE: US Subprime Crisis Is "Financial Apartheid"

Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:30 pm



Quoting Pope (Reply 47):
Wrong. Bankers lost because they incorrect analyzed the risk.

You are right. I take it back. I don't feel sorry for the bankers. This thread has convinced me their incompetence basically caused this problem. But it is fair to point out... the banks are suffering dearly for their mistakes! The people are not suffering that much. They can get another mortgage when they can afford it. Which may be soon, thanks declining property values.

Quoting Pope (Reply 48):
an excuse for justifying bad decisions.

People are piling onto this and saying every foreclosure is a result of "injustice" and "crisis." A foreclosure is part of daily life. In our system, foreclosures do happen. It is not evil. It is part of the beautiful system that lets us own homes in the first place.

That sleazy denial of responsibility is getting old.

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