skyservice_330
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Abortion Turns 20 In Canada

Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:00 pm

This week marked the 20th anniversary of the Supreme Court of Canada striking down Canada's abortion legislation. As it stands in Canada, abortion is neither legal nor illegal (if I understand it right) as the Progressive Conservative government at the time, nor any government since, has reintroduced the law. In some provinces it is available while in others there is not a hospital that will perform it and, if I remember correctly, the number of hospitals performing abortions is decreasing.

I am curious what my fellow Canadians think about all this? Is abortion going to come up as an issue in an election anytime soon? Are you satisfied with the way things are or do you think the government should clearly define its stance on the issue?

Thoughts? (and please, keep it civil  Smile )

A copy of the ruling:
http://csc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/1988/1988rcs1-30/1988rcs1-30.html
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Abortion Turns 20 In Canada

Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:54 pm

I'm for allowing it, but with limited time. Up to the end of the 1. trimester.
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skyservice_330
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RE: Abortion Turns 20 In Canada

Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:59 pm



Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Thread starter):

I stand corrected. Legislation was proposed after the decision but failed in the Senate.
 
Analog
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RE: Abortion Turns 20 In Canada

Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:34 pm



Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Thread starter):
As it stands in Canada, abortion is neither legal nor illegal (if I understand it right)

I'm confused. In a common law system, if something is not illegal, isn't it legal? How is abortion not legal in Canada?
 
skyservice_330
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RE: Abortion Turns 20 In Canada

Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:47 pm



Quoting Analog (Reply 3):
I'm confused. In a common law system, if something is not illegal, isn't it legal? How is abortion not legal in Canada?

It exists in a legal vacuum. I am not a lawyer, so I could be wrong, but from my understanding there is no law criminalizing it, but there is also no stipulation that there is a right to it or that it is a service that must be provided- the court struck it down on procedural grounds, leaving it open to Parliament to introduce restrictions if it wishes to do so under the current law. Again though, maybe a lawyer from Canada can clarify.
 
AF340
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RE: Abortion Turns 20 In Canada

Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:08 pm



Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 4):
It exists in a legal vacuum.

No pun intended right?  Wink


I am for it. I think, even though I am quite a conservative, it is all up to the mother. I don't think it will become illegal in Canada, we are, I think, just used to the idea of it. There is a clinic that does it right by my house actually.

Also, to my knowledge, it is legal (in Ontario at least).




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CF188A
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RE: Abortion Turns 20 In Canada

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:01 pm



Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Thread starter):
I am curious what my fellow Canadians think about all this? Is abortion going to come up as an issue in an election anytime soon? Are you satisfied with the way things are or do you think the government should clearly define its stance on the issue?

Thoughts? (and please, keep it civil )

It happens daily in Canada, and to be honest, there are far greater issues in this country and abroad which need to further awareness. It might not be morally acceptable , rather it is indeed a very disturbing process, however Canada's population is increasing rapidly every year. I think natural born Canadians should be future leaders of a country which gave them their opportunities. Canadian immigration is out of control, so all in all... it would be plausible for those considering abortion, to take into consideration other factors and possibilities before even considering . I am sure there are MANY alternatives, programs, etc which could be started. But unfortunately there are other concerns in this country at the present time.
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow~ RIP ... LJFM
 
connies4ever
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RE: Abortion Turns 20 In Canada

Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:55 pm



Quoting CF188A (Reply 6):
It happens daily in Canada, and to be honest, there are far greater issues in this country and abroad which need to further awareness. It might not be morally acceptable , rather it is indeed a very disturbing process, however Canada's population is increasing rapidly every year. I think natural born Canadians should be future leaders of a country which gave them their opportunities. Canadian immigration is out of control, so all in all... it would be plausible for those considering abortion, to take into consideration other factors and possibilities before even considering . I am sure there are MANY alternatives, programs, etc which could be started. But unfortunately there are other concerns in this country at the present time.

Canada's birthrate is barely at the replacement level, hence it is immigration that is the source of our 'rapid' population increase. Not so rapid actually, more like 300-350,000/year. On a base population of 32.6m that's not so much, so I would disagree that our immigration is 'out of control'. Besides, more immigrants leads to more good restaurants....

As for abortion, I recall the days when they were illegal and women, for whatever reason, had decided that they simply could not have the (future) child they were carrying -- too old, too young, too poor, wrong father, and on. So they sought out so-called 'back alley' abortions, and I am aware that a couple of my mother's contemporaries did just that. Sometimes these things had disastrous consequences, including sterility and even death.

We simply cannot put women back into that situation. It's their body, and their choice to make. Yes, there are consequences, both physical and psychological, and there is the moral dimension to consider. And in a free society, morality is not legislated, it is decided at a personal level. What's moral for you is not necessarily for me, and one woman's personal choice does not necessarily impact another woman. So let her make it.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
vaporlock
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RE: Abortion Turns 20 In Canada

Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:37 am



Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Thread starter):
I am curious what my fellow Canadians think about all this? Is abortion going to come up as an issue in an election anytime soon? Are you satisfied with the way things are or do you think the government should clearly define its stance on the issue?

Skyservice.....I am a female and my view is that abortion should be legal.

My question is.....how the hell are all these young girls getting knocked up? They are way better educated in methods of birth control and there are all kinds of precautions that they can take including the morning after pill.

Females these days are having sex at much younger ages than when I grew up. Of course you always had the "ho's" that were popular because they'd spread their legs for anything....but where are there moral values?

Quoting CF188A (Reply 6):
Canadian immigration is out of control

I agree with you 100%....I live in the City of Toronto and I'm a white Canadian....I am also a minority now. The city has become run down and dirty. I hate it here now.....and yes, it is the Canadian Government's fault for opening the flood gates and letting everyone and their brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. etc. in the country. Our health care system, rental housing and every other government program is out of control. Trust me I think it is great that all people should be welcome, it's just that too many people have landed in Toronto too fast and the city wasn't prepared for it. Just think, our Welfare system currently supports 72% of the immigrants who live here? There is definately something wrong with that. My view is that if you come to Canada....you live like a Canadian, you work and support yourself and if not....you should be sent home.

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 7):
so I would disagree that our immigration is 'out of control'. Besides, more immigrants leads to more good restaurants....

Connies4ever, I know you live in the "Great White North".....dam, I'd give my right & left arm to live up there. I was born in Chapleau, Ontario...which is pretty far north and believe me there are not too many immigrants up there due to the cold weather. And as far as "more immigrants leads to more good restaurants"......I dunno about that.. hehe

Just my 2 cents.

Vaporlock  bouncy 
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: Abortion Turns 20 In Canada

Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:42 am

Quoting Vaporlock (Reply 8):
Skyservice.....I am a female and my view is that abortion should be legal.

My question is.....how the hell are all these young girls getting knocked up? They are way better educated in methods of birth control and there are all kinds of precautions that they can take including the morning after pill.

Females these days are having sex at much younger ages than when I grew up. Of course you always had the "ho's" that were popular because they'd spread their legs for anything....but where are there moral values?

Part of the problem Phyllis is that many young girls these days think "oh well I can just have an abortion". This was even evident when I was in high school.

I'm not against abortion, but there's gotta some control put on it. It shouldn't be freely available for every little slut to use as a form of birth control.

[Edited 2008-01-31 17:04:16]
 
connies4ever
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RE: Abortion Turns 20 In Canada

Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:14 am



Quoting Vaporlock (Reply 8):
Connies4ever, I know you live in the "Great White North".....dam, I'd give my right & left arm to live up there. I was born in Chapleau, Ontario...which is pretty far north and believe me there are not too many immigrants up there due to the cold weather. And as far as "more immigrants leads to more good restaurants"......I dunno about that.. hehe

Hi Vapor....Chapleau, eh ? I'm actually not too far from there right now, but planning to go back West fairly soon.

I work in a group of 20: 8 ethnic Chinese, a German, a Turk, an Egyptian, a Zambian, an English-born Canadian, and a Mexican. Oh,yeah, 6 native-born Canadians, too. I hear as much Mandarin spoken at work as English, esp. at coffee/tea break.

In the town I work in (pop. ~ 4,500) there is a Chinese, an Indian, and a Korean restaurant, as well as your Timmy's, Burger King, and Subway, and they do good business. I'll be with the Chinese Cultural Association on Feb 9 to celebrate the arrival of the Year of the Rat. I'm looking forward to it as it's a pot luck: I'm doing prawns in chilies and garlic.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
vaporlock
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RE: Abortion Turns 20 In Canada

Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:29 am



Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 12):
I'm doing prawns in chilies and garlic.

Yummy!!!

Vaporlock  bouncy 
 
greasespot
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RE: Abortion Turns 20 In Canada

Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:41 am



Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 9):
I'm not against abortion, but there's gotta some control put on it. It shouldn't be freely available for every little slut to use as a form of birth control.

Have you ever tried to get an abotion? They are avaliable but not freely. Some places in this country women have to travel to other provinces to get one. And only a very small percentage get a second abortion. More than likely that "slut" as you call her ends up with multiple kids and is a baby machine...

Why does it matter to you....Unless your the one getting her pregnant...

Making abortion illegal will not stop abortions...They will resort to back alley abortions and such.

I for one am proud that we have no law....

Oh and for i do not think there is a doctor would would even do a 3rd trimester abortion unless the mothers life was precarious and about to die....Just because it is legal does not mean it takes place.

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
LH423
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RE: Abortion Turns 20 In Canada

Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:20 pm



Quoting Vaporlock (Reply 8):
I agree with you 100%....I live in the City of Toronto and I'm a white Canadian....I am also a minority now

I don't agree that immigration is out of control in the country, but I do think that the Canadian government should be doing more to stop everyone from settling in Toronto.

Unfortunately, so many ethnic groups have established communities in the GTA that immigrants will feel more comfortable moving there. I don't think, being a liberal democracy, that Canada can or should restrict where immigrants move, but I think we may need to revisit some of the past practices that entices immigrants to move elsewhere in the country. Obviously, with a modern take on it (I'm not recommending we go back to giving free land in Saskatchewan to those that want to farm it). I do believe the gov't may have some incentives (for instance, when I graduate university I will have the option of converting my visa to a work permit which is valid for two years, but only one year if i choose to settle in the CMM, the GTA, or the GVRD) but, I don't think whatever they're doing is working, and long-term, I don't think the GTA can continue to handle the influx of new residents.

Anyway, Calgary is where the money's at. Even an immigrant working at a Timmy's will make $12/hour.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Abortion Turns 20 In Canada

Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:55 pm



Quoting LH423 (Reply 13):
I don't think, being a liberal democracy, that Canada can or should restrict where immigrants move,

We are waaaay off topic here, but I bite: Why not? Look, immigration is a privilege, not a right. The applicants already have to adhere to certain conditions, nothing is easier than add another one: live in certain area for for a certain time. There could be a set of conditions allowing for moving out before the time limit - getting a better job comes to mind.

Quoting LH423 (Reply 13):
but I think we may need to revisit some of the past practices that entices immigrants to move elsewhere in the country.

Well, I would start with incentives for businesses to move out from the GTA. People would follow.

Quoting LH423 (Reply 13):
I don't think the GTA can continue to handle the influx of new residents.

See above.

Quoting Vaporlock (Reply 8):
Just think, our Welfare system currently supports 72% of the immigrants who live here?

Now that's a shocker for me. I'm an immigrant myself (though you wouldn't know until I open my mouth) and I'm basically working since the first moment. So do all my friends and we do quite well. Moreover, if you go anywhere, you can see people of different backgrounds working there. So who are those on welfare?
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VonRichtofen
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RE: Abortion Turns 20 In Canada

Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:07 pm

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 14):
So who are those on welfare?

Mostly 3rd world refugees. If you're a refugee from Eastern Europe though, say a refugee from the mess that is the former Yugoslavia then don't count on any help from government. It's a nice little double standard with Canadian immigration.

I don't have a problem with immigration, but when full fledged- born and raised in Canada- citizens are being denied student loans or a legitimate refugee can't get any help because they're not a "visible minority" while somebody who's been here 2 weeks can go on welfare and get money for school then something is wrong.

[Edited 2008-02-01 11:10:25]

[Edited 2008-02-01 11:11:57]
 
N1120A
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RE: Abortion Turns 20 In Canada

Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:22 pm



Quoting Vaporlock (Reply 8):
They are way better educated in methods of birth control and there are all kinds of precautions that they can take including the morning after pill.

Perhaps, perhaps not. It seems that there has been a decline in the really strong sex education that was going on 10-15 years ago.

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 9):

Part of the problem Phyllis is that many young girls these days think "oh well I can just have an abortion".

I have never heard someone say that.

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 9):
It shouldn't be freely available for every little slut to use as a form of birth control.

Oh it isn't and you should know that.

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 10):

I work in a group of 20: 8 ethnic Chinese, a German, a Turk, an Egyptian, a Zambian, an English-born Canadian, and a Mexican. Oh,yeah, 6 native-born Canadians, too. I hear as much Mandarin spoken at work as English, esp. at coffee/tea break.

And?

Quoting Vaporlock (Reply 8):
Just think, our Welfare system currently supports 72% of the immigrants who live here? There is definately something wrong with that. My view is that if you come to Canada....you live like a Canadian, you work and support yourself and if not....you should be sent home.

For all those with these views on Canadian immigration, perhaps you all should read this.

http://www.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idUSN0959757220080109
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: Abortion Turns 20 In Canada

Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:42 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
For all those with these views on Canadian immigration, perhaps you all should read this.

This is real problem, but I don't think it's the welfare system at fault. I think it's Canadian employers for the most part. They either say "you're education isn't recognized here" or even if they have a Canadian education they'll pull the BS line "You don't have any Canadian experience". This happens all the time to a good friend mine from Dubai. He's quite educated (degree from Colorado) and a diploma from BCIT.

It's bullshit. Especially with the "labour shortage" out West. If Canadian employers would actually recognize their skills we probably wouldn't need much of a welfare system in the first place.
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: Abortion Turns 20 In Canada

Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:45 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):

I have never heard someone say that.

I've heard it, mostly from your typical early 20's slut when she finds out she's pregnant from one of the several strangers she's slept with over the last few weekends.
 
N1120A
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RE: Abortion Turns 20 In Canada

Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:09 pm



Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 18):

I've heard it, mostly from your typical early 20's slut when she finds out she's pregnant from one of the several strangers she's slept with over the last few weekends.

Wow, that is a terribly messy generalization. Further, it goes to show that perhaps education about contraception is not as strong as it should be.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
skyservice_330
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RE: Abortion Turns 20 In Canada

Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:09 am



Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 18):
I've heard it, mostly from your typical early 20's slut when she finds out she's pregnant from one of the several strangers she's slept with over the last few weekends.

A friend of mine used to volunteer at a Planned Parenthood office in SW Ontario. She used to tell me that it wasn't unusual to have girls come in to have their 6th or 7th abortion...some of them younger than 20. Some people really do see it as a method of birth control.
 
jamincan
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RE: Abortion Turns 20 In Canada

Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:06 am

I think it's sometimes hard for us to understand how, but I think sometimes people are just not very bright and mature and just make bad decisions. I know a young teenager, who got pregnant, decided to carry the baby to term, and then a few months after giving birth found out she was once again several months pregnant. She opted to abort the second pregnancy, but I happen to know that it wasn't an easy decision and that it frightened her a great deal. It's hard for me to understand how she wouldn't have learned her lesson from the first pregnancy, and yet she had gotten pregnant again almost immediately after giving birth to her first baby.

I highly doubt that most people view abortion as an easy out for irresponsible behaviour. Obviously getting pregnant is irresponsible on both the guy and girl's part; however, I doubt the consequences of unsafe sex occur to them at the time. All sorts of factors - education, social pressures, fear, and yes, irresponsible promiscuous behaviour - play into the equation. I don't think it's as simple as dismissing those people as sluts leaning on abortion as an "easy" means of birth control. It's a bit more complicated then that.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Abortion Turns 20 In Canada

Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:06 am



Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 20):
A friend of mine used to volunteer at a Planned Parenthood office in SW Ontario. She used to tell me that it wasn't unusual to have girls come in to have their 6th or 7th abortion...some of them younger than 20. Some people really do see it as a method of birth control.


"Co

Ya know, I am close to several families in my community where I work, and I am not aware of _any_ young lady who has had an abortion. But that's only within my social circle.

OTOH, I went with a woman in the 80s who had had one. She cried many times a night. There _is_ a price to be paid.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
greasespot
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RE: Abortion Turns 20 In Canada

Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:57 am



Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 20):
A friend of mine used to volunteer at a Planned Parenthood office in SW Ontario. She used to tell me that it wasn't unusual to have girls come in to have their 6th or 7th abortion...

I am going to call bullshit on that. It is very unusual. Also because Planned Parrenthood does not do abortions. You have to go to a hospital or a Morgantaler clinic in Ontario.

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
Analog
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RE: Abortion Turns 20 In Canada

Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:37 am



Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 20):

A friend of mine used to volunteer at a Planned Parenthood office in SW Ontario. She used to tell me that it wasn't unusual to have girls come in to have their 6th or 7th abortion...some of them younger than 20.

As rare as these women are, who here wants to subsidize these women raising their kids? Anyone?
 
skyservice_330
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RE: Abortion Turns 20 In Canada

Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:04 pm



Quoting Greasespot (Reply 23):
I am going to call bullshit on that. It is very unusual. Also because Planned Parrenthood does not do abortions. You have to go to a hospital or a Morgantaler clinic in Ontario.

GS

Call BS if you would like, but I have no reason to think she is lying as she has always been truthful with me in the past. And, yes, I should have been more clear...Planned Parenthood does not perform abortions, it is a referral service/guidance service. My post should have read "She used to tell me that it wasn't unusual to have girls come in who have had 6 or 7 abortions...some of them younger than 20"

I don't think this is the norm by any stretch and I don't think most people view it as a form of birth control, but there are some- a very small minority- who I would bet do. Those with the mentality of, "Oh well, I can always get an abortion."

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