EvilForce
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Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:44 pm

In the other thread we started discussing immigration / illegal immigration. As I said there it may not be an ideal situation, but it certainly isn't a crisis, overwhelming issue, or even something the average voter should care about.

I've heard lots of the arguments of why people may think it's a big problem, yet never have I seen many people consider the flip side of the debate. I feel that it is used by politicians to keep the electorate inflamed about something trivial so their attention is drawn off the really important problems.

Consider:

Quote:
The widespread belief is that illegal aliens cost more in government services than they contribute to the economy. This belief is undeniably false. Every empirical study of illegals' economic impact demonstrates the opposite. Undocumenteds actually contribute more to public coffers in taxes than they cost in social services.



Quote:
Undocumented immigrants living in the United States are subject to the same income tax laws as documented immigrants and U.S. citizens. However, because of their status most unauthorized workers pay a higher effective tax rate than similarly situated documented or U.S. citizens. Yet, these workers and their families use fewer government services than similarly situated documented immigrants or U.S. citizens.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=881584

Quote:
There is one group of Americans that would benefit from a dramatic cut in illegal immigration: high-school dropouts. Economists speculate that for the average high-school dropout, that would mean about a $25 a week raise if there were no job competition from immigrants. Illegal immigrants seem to have very little impact on unemployment rates.



Quote:

Even in industries with high concentrations of illegal workers -- such as construction, restaurants and some parts of agriculture -- the impact isn't as great as many people think. If there weren't illegal immigrants working in construction in places like Chicago and Miami, then demand for legal workers would go up, which would mean wages would rise. But very quickly, legal workers from other parts of the country would move to those cities, and wages would go back down. The net impact on wages would be relatively modest.

Quote:
The economic impact of illegal immigration is far smaller than other trends in the economy, such as the increasing use of automation in manufacturing or the growth in global trade. Those two factors have a much bigger impact on wages, prices and the health of the U.S. economy.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5312900

Quote:
The estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/bu...353600&en=78c87ac4641dc383&ei=5090

As is shown here http://ksghome.harvard.edu/%7EGBorjas/Papers/w11281.pdf the average American's wages are actually increased rather than decreased, as many "wage depression" theorists say. The net additional gain in wages and wealth is not large but is a net gain nonetheless for the average Joe.

As far as education is concerned, in MN the report of the cost of K-12 additional expenditures (while not attributing any gain from taxes witheld) was approx. $ 138,000,000 as the mean estimate. (Source: http://www.state.mn.us/mn/externalDo...gal%20Immigration%20Brief%2026.pdf ) Minnesota is 5.1 million people. By comparison New Mexico with a population of 2 million (or 60% smaller) spent $ 63.1 million according to the 2004 New Mexico Fiscal Policy Project. So the "issue" really isn't horrific in one area of the country vs. another. In Minnesota it costs the average resident $ 2.26 per month, and New Mexico resident $ 2.63 per month in additional education expenditures. Or in other words, one less stop at Starbucks every 6 weeks.

Someone also mentioned in the other thread that Mexican nationals remit $15 billion back to Mexico. However, that includes all Mexicans both legal and illegal. Even if we assume on the high side that 60% of that total is from illegal aliens we are talking about $ 9 billion per year 0.07% of our $ 13 trillion annual GDP. Again that's not granting any positive credit to our GDP from local purchases while in country, plus the purchase of American goods and services as exports to Mexico.

So again I say.... illegal immigration isn't much to worry about at all. It's a boogey man meant to scare you into submission.

[Edited 2008-01-31 11:51:12]

[Edited 2008-01-31 11:53:16]
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MDorBust
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:55 pm

Quoting EvilForce (Thread starter):
So again I say.... illegal immigration isn't much to worry about at all. It's a boogey man meant to scare you into submission.

You might want to tell Parkland Hospital that illegal immigration isn't a problem..

http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/parkland.asp


As a side note, your studies are all flawed for one basic reason. They assume the ending illegal immigration means ending immigration.. As in, the people will be gone and not replaced. This is not what most people who want to end illegal immigration want. They want legal immigrants. As in. The people are here, legally. And fully paying members of the system.

[Edited 2008-01-31 11:58:16]
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PSA53
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:13 pm

In the article,"The Baby Factory,in effect."The politicians whose intentions were good at the time to write directives that
born in the USA, would make you eligible of all US social programs,including welfare, at the expense of the american taxpayer.Because of the abuse of the "baby factory" the system is overloaded and broken.
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EvilForce
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:15 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 1):
As a side note, your studies are all flawed for one basic reason. They assume the ending illegal immigration means ending immigration.. As in, the people will be gone and not replaced. This is not what most people who want to end illegal immigration want. They want legal immigrants. As in. The people are here, legally. And fully paying members of the system.

This isn't true at all. Both McCain and Ted Kennedy along with their fellow bipartisan members were demonized by both parties as giving out "amnesty" in the last large attempt at an Immigration Reform bill, of which Bush was in favor of as well. The guest worker program drew howls of anger and displeasure. You can't have it both ways.
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MDorBust
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:19 pm

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 3):
You can't have it both ways.

We don't want it both ways. You are right Amnesty is not an option in my opinion. The ones that came here illegally need to get kicked out. They broke the laws coming into our nation. They can go right back home for it. However, that doesn't mean that our current system of granting legal entry into the country and citizenship doesn't need to be overhauled. It does. Badly. But that doesn't mean we give free pass to the ones who broke the law to get here. There will be more to take their place. Legally.

[Edited 2008-01-31 12:19:58]
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:27 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Thread starter):
In Minnesota it costs the average resident $ 2.26 per month, and New Mexico resident $ 2.63 per month in additional education expenditures.

I have a question: How are they regarding "resident"? Because if the schools are paid for by property taxes then you need to look at the cost per property owner not resident.

Quoting EvilForce (Thread starter):
Someone also mentioned in the other thread that Mexican nationals remit $15 billion back to Mexico. However, that includes all Mexicans both legal and illegal. Even if we assume on the high side that 60% of that total is from illegal aliens we are talking about $ 9 billion per year 0.07% of our $ 13 trillion annual GDP. Again that's not granting any positive credit to our GDP from local purchases while in country, plus the purchase of American goods and services as exports to Mexico.

Actually the remittances are a complete straw dog as even if legal these people would still be sending the money back "home". In fact this is what makes the USA the largest provider of "foreign aid" in the world. I can't find the figures at the moment but maybe someone else here knows them.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 1):
As a side note, your studies are all flawed for one basic reason. They assume the ending illegal immigration means ending immigration.. As in, the people will be gone and not replaced. This is not what most people who want to end illegal immigration want. They want legal immigrants. As in. The people are here, legally. And fully paying members of the system.

To me the biggest problem is two fold:
1.) This is all theory and conjecture. We would need to be able to control immigration (i.e. legal immigration) and increase or decrease it and see what the affect is in order to have any real data. Right now its just guessing because we don't know how many people there really are in the country.
2.) If we make illegal immigrants suddenly legal with no other changes then the fear of deportation is gone and the now legal workers will demand a higher wage, which will create new opening at the lower "illegal" wage and new illegal person will then move in to fill that void. SO the real question is: How do you prevent this from happening?

Tug
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:34 pm

On this morning's Arizona Republic front page there is an article entitled; Apartments going empty as hiring law hits migrants. With the start of Arizona's employer-sanctions law (Jan 1, 2008) illegal immigrants are leaving Arizona for a state near you or going back to Mexico. (It should be noted only 1 of the 15 County Attorney's in the state, has said that they would aggressively enforce it). So the question becomes, with the labor force being reduced, how much are you willing to pay for your Big Mac, who's going to pick the crops that reach your dinner table and so on. What is does government do with the decrease in tax revenue (sales, income), I guess for cuts in services for everyone, perhaps that pothole on your street might not get fixed. Once more its not just Mexicans, but people from all over the world, you don't think Chinese aren't smuggled into this country,and then what about the students that have overstayed their student visas. Just points to ponder, no simple answers.
 
EvilForce
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:36 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 4):
You are right Amnesty is not an option in my opinion. The ones that came here illegally need to get kicked out. They broke the laws coming into our nation. They can go right back home for it.

And this is a perfect example of why immigration reform is simply never going to happen. What you propose is impossible to do. You will bark at the moon all night demanding an ideologically conforming stance with no compromise, so the issue continues to grow. *shrug*

Quoting Tugger (Reply 5):
I have a question: How are they regarding "resident"? Because if the schools are paid for by property taxes then you need to look at the cost per property owner not resident.

I just put it in some sort of relevant context. Residents have to live somewhere. Whether they rent or own a home, so in essence everyone who lives in a state pays property tax. You can slice & dice the numbers whichever way you want. It's just hard to put into context what $138 million is, ya know? A $ 138 million expenditure to the federal govt is a rounding error. To a single person it's a Lotto cashout.
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:39 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 7):
What you propose is impossible to do.

Why is deporting illegal immigrants impossible to do? No one has ever come up with a rational explanation why it is impossible to deport illegal immigrants... largely based I think on the fact that we do it by the bus load currently.
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:40 pm

To add a little fuel to the flame: (PLEASE NOTE THAT I MAKE NO OPINIONS...yet...)

Consider this:

Most illegal immigrants here have no problem obtaining a fake SSN. Last I read, the US government holds about 9 million 'suspect' SSNs. You have plenty of illegals with fake paperwork out there, able to do the same thing US citizens are able to do.

An employer gets the social security # from the worker. They have no requirement to verify whether it is correct or not. A lot of these illegal immigrants then hold 'real' jobs, AND PAY ALL REQUIRED TAXES.

Uncle Sam DOES NOT return any of this money, the extra money these illegals bring into the system is SURPLUS.

Plus, they spend money while here, adding to the taxes paid to municipalities. And are 'allowed' to own homes, adding to the tax base.

There are many financial incentives for governments to talk tough about illegal immigration while doing NOTHING about it.
 
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:44 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Thread starter):
it certainly isn't a crisis, overwhelming issue, or even something the average voter should care about.

That's almost funny coming from someone living on the East Coast.

Tell ya what, come on down here to West Texas and I'll take you out spotting with my Minuteman buddies for a while. And you can see the damage they do to the land, you can see them fill the ER of the local hospital, you can stand in line behind them at the grocery store while one legal one among a group of 10 illegals pays for their groceries with a food stamp card, and you can watch them through night-vision goggles carrying drugs across the border.

Quoting EvilForce (Thread starter):
Illegal Immigration

The operative word here is ILLEGAL. Do you turn a blind eye when you see people commit other crimes too?
 
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:01 pm

Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Please tell that to the victims of crimes committed by illegal aliens, including the Chandler Rapist here in the metro Phoenix area - a man who had been deported and then illegally crossed back into the U.S. AGAIN to commit his crimes.
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EvilForce
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:03 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 1):
You might want to tell Parkland Hospital that illegal immigration isn't a problem..

Did you read the link you provided? Did you notice these small factoids they listed?

Quote:
Because of large payments from the Medicaid system, Parkland still ended 2004 with a $7.9 million surplus in obstetrics. Under a 2002 amendment to federal regulations, the births are covered by federal taxes through Medicaid because their children automatically become American citizens.



Quote:
At both institutions (Parkland Hospital), they (illegals) have a better record of paying their bills than low-income Americans do, the administrators said.



Quote:
Most illegal immigrants who go to major hospitals in Texas can show that they have been living here for years, said Ernie Schmid, policy director at the Texas Hospital Association. Many immigrant families have mixed status; often a patient with no documents has a spouse or children who are legal.

By law emergency rooms have to provide adequate care regardless of ability to pay, regardless of insurance coverage, regardless of Medicare, and regardless as to immigration status. If they fail they are find $ 50,000 per violation, in addition to the punishment that Medicare can seek. (Source: http://library.findlaw.com/2001/Jan/1/126650.html )

In Texas Harris County District Attorney Chuck Rosenthal has made the problem worse. He started criminal investigations into doctors treating illegal immigrants back in 2001. He said that any doctor providing care for any illegal immigrant that wasn't deemed "emergency" in nature, that they could face criminal charges. So now you have a set of illegal immigrants that can't get preventative treatment while paying full price for said care. Instead, they were then forced to go use the ER facilities where it's illegal to deny care.

And yes this is the same Harris County District Attorney Chuck Rosenthal that has been exposed to having an affair with his assistant. Misusing govt. property. Sending 900 emails of inappropriate nature. "The e-mails released this week included video clips of nudity and sex acts and a racist joke forwarded by Rosenthal that compares former President Clinton and black men". (Source: http://www.krgv.com/News/Other/98496...er-Harris-County-district-attorney ) Also he is being investigated for criminal interference with an ongoing investigation.

As a side note Mr. Rosenthal is a Republican elected in 2000, that ran as a religious conservative and presides over an office that sends more convicts to death row than any other prosecutors' office in the nation. A lawbreaker himself working to send people to death row at the highest rate of ANY office in the nation. Hypocritical & incompetent to boot.
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EvilForce
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:12 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8):
Why is deporting illegal immigrants impossible to do? No one has ever come up with a rational explanation why it is impossible to deport illegal immigrants...

Um.... I said it cannot be done. How can you prove a negative? If you believe it's "easy" or "achievable" I would certainly be interested to hear your ideas. How exactly, and specifically do you dislodge 12 to 13 million people? That's the size of the population of Ecuador, and almost as large as the entire population of Chile or the Netherlands.

How do you "unscrew" a pregnant lady so to speak?
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Delta767300ER
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:12 pm



Quote:
Tell ya what, come on down here to West Texas and I'll take you out spotting with my Minuteman buddies for a while. And you can see the damage they do to the land, you can see them fill the ER of the local hospital, you can stand in line behind them at the grocery store while one legal one among a group of 10 illegals pays for their groceries with a food stamp card, and you can watch them through night-vision goggles carrying drugs across the border.

I would like to do that to. If I lived in one of those areas I would join the Minuteman Organazation. I've seen films online showing how the illegals trash up the land and stuff. Its disgusting.

-Delta767300ER
 
EvilForce
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:19 pm



Quoting Queso (Reply 10):
Tell ya what, come on down here to West Texas and I'll take you out spotting with my Minuteman buddies for a while.

I'm not real interested in vigilante justice thank you. Besides, Texas is a perfect example of what you get in a low tax, right wing state. Personally, I'd be happy to cut you guys loose. 49 states works just fine by me.  Wink

Quoting Queso (Reply 10):
And you can see the damage they do to the land,

Wait a minute. You, the anti-environmentalist, global warming isn't real guy, NOW all of a sudden cares about the land and mother Earth?  laughing 
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MDorBust
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:25 pm

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 12):
Did you notice these small factoids they listed?

I don't consider it a perk that someone in the government gave them $70 million instead of $63 million.. $49 Million of that which was spent on illegal immigrants.

That would be $49 million per year from a single hospital.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 12):
And yes this is the same Harris County District Attorney Chuck Rosenthal....

This is relevant how?

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 13):
Um.... I said it cannot be done. How can you prove a negative?

You could prove why it can't be done. Logistics? Econonomics? There has to be a reason why it can't be done, or it can be done.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 13):
If you believe it's "easy" or "achievable" I would certainly be interested to hear your ideas.

Easy, no. Achievable, yes. It is done everyday.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 13):
How exactly, and specifically do you dislodge 12 to 13 million people?

One bus load at a time.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 13):
That's the size of the population of Ecuador, and almost as large as the entire population of Chile or the Netherlands.

A group of people the size of other nations entire populations... and somehow that's not a problem?

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 13):
How do you "unscrew" a pregnant lady so to speak?

Didn't I see you advocating abortion in another thread?

She can go on a bus too.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 15):
Texas is a perfect example of what you get in a low tax, right wing state.

A booming economy? Several of the fastest growing cities in the nation? Yeah, it sucks.

[Edited 2008-01-31 13:26:27]
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Queso
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:25 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 15):
I'm not real interested in vigilante justice thank you. Besides, Texas is a perfect example of what you get in a low tax, right wing state. Personally, I'd be happy to cut you guys loose. 49 states works just fine by me.



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 15):
Wait a minute. You, the anti-environmentalist, global warming isn't real guy, NOW all of a sudden cares about the land and mother Earth?

Well, I'll give you a C+ on your reply and an F on actually responding to the points I made. Typical though, since there is no way to dispute them.
 
EvilForce
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:37 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 11):
Please tell that to the victims of crimes committed by illegal aliens, including the Chandler Rapist here in the metro Phoenix area - a man who had been deported and then illegally crossed back into the U.S. AGAIN to commit his crimes.

Auto accidents cause 42,000 deaths and 2.9 million cases of injury every year, yet we don't seriously consider banning autos. Yes, families and people victimized by crime is a tragedy. It's very unfortunate. But to blame illegal immigration is simply human nature at work I believe. Humans tend to justify or explain tragedy so as to minimize the risk in their own minds. It's similar to victim blaming. Blaming a woman for being at a bar, therefore she set herself up for rape. If she hadn't been there, she wouldn't have gotten raped. It's the way some deal with the fear of uncertainty and the realization that "it could happen to anyone".

So if that criminal was never in the USA he couldn't have killed a citizen. Um... ok. But seriously, how is that of any relevancy beyond that? If there were no gangs, we'd have no gang violence. Again.... true... but what else can you say?

[Edited 2008-01-31 13:55:24]
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EvilForce
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:54 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 16):
This is relevant how?

You're the person concerned with "legality" of everyone. You said; "They broke the laws coming into our nation", "granting legal entry...", "...broke the law to get here". "Legally."

I find it curious you don't find the illegal behavior of the District Attorney that is part and parcel of this issue as "relevant".

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 16):
Achievable, yes. It is done everyday.



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 16):
Quoting EvilForce (Reply 13):
How exactly, and specifically do you dislodge 12 to 13 million people?

One bus load at a time.

And how is that "one bus load at a time" thing working out for you down there in Texas? As far as dislodging a population integrated into a country, is simply unheard of on that size. I suppose the closest anyone ever came was the Nazi's in eliminating 6 million Jews. Personally I don't think "the final solution" would work in America. Certainly not in an America I want to live in. Even then, 6 million isn't even half of the population we are talking about. There's no political will to do it. Nor should there be.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 16):
Yeah, it sucks.

At least we can agree on something.  Smile
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Halcyon
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:59 pm

So there IS a problem right now with illegal immigration. It shuts down hospitals. You're advocating letting the problem become worse, because it's not "too bad." How do you define what is "bad" then?

If some politician passes some pork worth $20 million dollars, that's not "much bad at all" compared to our economy...but I don't like it.
 
EvilForce
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:00 pm



Quoting Halcyon (Reply 20):
It shuts down hospitals.

Which hospitals? Where?
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MDorBust
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:07 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 19):
You're the person concerned with "legality" of everyone. You said; "They broke the laws coming into our nation", "granting legal entry...", "...broke the law to get here". "Legally."

I find it curious you don't find the illegal behavior of the District Attorney that is part and parcel of this issue as "relevant".

So any illegal act is now relevant to the conversation of illegal immigration?

Sorry, Mister Fantastic can't even make that stretch.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 19):
I suppose the closest anyone ever came was the Nazi's in eliminating 6 million Jews.

Yay, Godwin'd. That didn't take long.

You lose. Personally though, I was expecting "Racist", or "Bigot" first.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 19):
At least we can agree on something.

Don't worry, when the company you work for moves to Texas... Oh wait, you should worry.
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Halcyon
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:07 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 21):

Yeah, just keep the tin foil hat on...

Do you know what happens when we pick up a drunk illegal (And often ones that are here on special permits for work.) or one that's having some sort of medical problem?

I don't get paid for that time. If often wastes the time of three EMTs, a cop, and an ER staff. All for nothing.

And that's a problem to me.

Your argument is that the problem is not "bad" enough to justify a response.

My argument is that, if it's bad, it can use fixing.


Send them back, streamline the process so that they can come here and contribute in an observable way and help pay for our roads, and it'll be good. But while they're coming here, getting money, and then sending it to Mexico...yeah, I think not.
 
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:15 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 22):
Yay, Godwin'd. That didn't take long.

You lose. Personally though, I was expecting "Racist", or "Bigot" first.

Actually, Godwin's Law doesn't come into play here. EvilForce was looking for any historical precedents to the proposed roundup and extradition of 12 million illegal aliens, and the Nazi roundup of the Jews is indeed the most salient example of an operation of that type and scale. And if you are discussing an issue that actually does relate to the Nazis (in this case, the act of rounding up large subgroups of a population), then drawing the comparison is in fact valid.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:15 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Thread starter):
illegal immigration isn't much to worry about at all.

As long as I fork out $1 to benefit a single illegal immigrant, then it IS a problem, it IS something to worry about, period.

Every illegal immigrant needs to be sent packing - right now. No 30 days in a processing center, no free meals, no nothing . . . back to where ever you came from without recourse . . .
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Dougloid
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:17 pm

There you go again, Force. Stirrin' up shit.

All kidding aside, I look at it this way. Anyone who ever took Intro to economics in college should be able to answer this question:

What happens in a market when you introduce a competing product at a lower price?
The product that was there lowers its price or folds its tent.

The second question is this:

Will it last forever?
No.

In practice what this means is that a large influx of people who can be exploited and abused tends to depress wages in a relevant market. That means that all the people who used to work in it and find themselves out of a job have to find another line of work.

Root, hog, or die, in other words. Darwinism

But those low cost workers can't be expected to be happy with the status quo forever. Once they're citizens or their kids are, they start wanting the same things the rest of us want, and then your wages go ahead on up again.

So. Is illegal immigration a problem? Yes.
Is it a show stopper? Only if you're losing your job.

Can any of us do anything? I don't mean stupid and futile Minuteman schtick, but anything of significance?
Probably not.

In particular because we bought into the Walmartization of America instead of supporting local people-that need for a screaming deal like a junkie needs heroin is our undoing.

In the words of Pogo: We have seen the enemy, and He is Us.
Or as the Bard had it: The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars but in ourselves, that we are underlings. Julius Caesar, Act I Scene 2.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
EvilForce
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:17 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 22):
So any illegal act is now relevant to the conversation of illegal immigration?

Sorry, Mister Fantastic can't even make that stretch.

So you think that the illegal behavior of the very same District Attorney who started a criminal investigation into doctors at the very same hospitals you linked me to originally, that issued the legal pronouncements on what services those hospitals can and cannot provide to illegal aliens, or face charges is "a stretch"?  Confused  Confused

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 22):
Yay, Godwin'd. That didn't take long.

You lose. Personally though, I was expecting "Racist", or "Bigot" first.

Really? Because this now makes the 3rd time I've asked how you would dislodge 13 million people to which you have no answer, and I lose? LOL. I see you have a mind like a steel trap.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 22):
Don't worry, when the company you work for moves to Texas... Oh wait, you should worry.

First they'd have to move to the United States to begin with. For some reason I have a hard time picturing our European and Asian owners deciding to move to Texas. But it is a funny mental picture I assure you.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
EvilForce
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:30 pm



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 25):
Every illegal immigrant needs to be sent packing - right now. No 30 days in a processing center, no free meals, no nothing . . . back to where ever you came from without recourse . . .

ANC you certainly have a point, and yes you're entitled to feel that way. But do you send in a nuke, when a sharpshooter on a roof would be just as effective?

But let's be honest. Your "solution" is NEVER going to happen. Ever. I find this debate to be similar to the abortion debate with conservatives. Yes, you can have an unmovable ideological stand with no compromise, but aren't you losing in the process? With the abortion issue there simply is no compromising with conservatives. Conservatives by in large would walk away from a compromise that would save let's say, 100,000 babies a year from abortion and call it a good day, or a good start. By "winning the ideological battle" you lose the war, or the very thing you were fighting for in the first place. Instead of averting a portion of the total abortions, they end up getting nothing, hoping they will some day get everything they want.

The same goes for immigration. You're never going to dislodge those people. And every politician that tries to at least address the issue and work on "fixing" the issue gets skewered in the process. I mean, why bother at all? Somewhere along the line we've forgotten that if you can get 75% of what you want, that's a win. That if you can get 1/4 of the way to your goal by compromising, that's a good start.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
MDorBust
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:31 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 27):
So you think that the illegal behavior of the very same District Attorney...

No, I think this is a pointless distraction technique.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 27):
Really? Because this now makes the 3rd time I've asked how you would dislodge 13 million people to which you have no answer, and I lose? LOL. I see you have a mind like a steel trap.

Try again.

I answered, and you Godwin'd. Yellowstone doesn't think so, but that was a solid Godwin... Unless you think repatriation and extermination are valid comparissons.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 27):
For some reason I have a hard time picturing our European and Asian owners deciding to move to Texas.

Then you must really know nothing about Texas.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
mham001
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:34 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Thread starter):
Quote:
The widespread belief is that illegal aliens cost more in government services than they contribute to the economy. This belief is undeniably false. Every empirical study of illegals' economic impact demonstrates the opposite. Undocumenteds actually contribute more to public coffers in taxes than they cost in social services.

Well, I stopped reading right there because that statement is patently false.

You live on the east coast? you need to get out more and see the long term effects of illegal employment in California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, and now migrating to a state near you.
Fortunately, there are signs of a migration back. Attrition is how this will get settled, all they have to do is plug the paperwork holes with SS and jail a few employers and this won't be a hot button item for those of us who have SEEN and FELT wage stagnation and deflation. Don't tell me its not a problem from your ivory tower.
 
EvilForce
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:38 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 29):
Try again.

Ok, for a 4th time. How do you dislodge 13 million people? It can't be done in any pragmatic sense of the word. You haven't provided any enlightenment on the logistics of your proposal. Why is that?

Shall we discuss how many dump trucks it would take to move Mt. Shasta 500 miles? Shall we discuss how many angels can stand on the head of a pin? Or how much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? Because those are all about as realistic as your claim of displacing 13 million people. *shrug*
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
lobster
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:41 pm

Cost of Illegal Immigration




This really pissed me off when I heard about it. Thank you Mr. Brossard




Another incident in California



I don't know where to begin with these scum bags in Oklahoma.



Crime Victims Of Illegal Aliens



There IS a problem in this country of ILLEGAL immigration. We need to round em' up and ship their asses back to whatever country they came from.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:42 pm

EvilForce will you or someone answer my question (or at least give some insight):

Quoting Tugger (Reply 5):
If we make illegal immigrants suddenly legal with no other changes then the fear of deportation is gone and the now legal workers will demand a higher wage, which will create new opening at the lower "illegal" wage and new illegal person will then move in to fill that void. SO the real question is: How do you prevent this from happening?

Well?

Tug
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
MDorBust
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:43 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 31):
Ok, for a 4th time. How do you dislodge 13 million people? It can't be done in any pragmatic sense of the word. You haven't provided any enlightenment on the logistics of your proposal. Why is that?

*cough*

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8):
largely based I think on the fact that we do it by the bus load currently.



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 16):
One bus load at a time.

Want to start reading now? Wait, I don't really mean for you to answer that. Of course you read it, how else could you play the Nazi card. Now, want to admit that I wrote it?

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 31):
Shall we discuss how many dump trucks it would take to move Mt. Shasta 500 miles?

One.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 31):
Because those are all about as realistic as your claim of displacing 13 million people. *shrug*

The thing western society most lacks. Patience.

Did you assume I meant a bus with thirteen million seats?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
mham001
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:44 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 31):
Ok, for a 4th time. How do you dislodge 13 million people?

for the umpteenth time, that argument is a canard. Stop the employment spigot and they go away. They are not here because they love America, they are here for one reason only, economic opportunity.


Canard


1 a: a false or unfounded report or story; especially : a fabricated report b: a groundless rumor or belief

2: an airplane with horizontal stabilizing and control surfaces in front of supporting surfaces; also : a small airfoil in front of the wing of an aircraft that increases the aircraft's stability
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:45 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 28):
But do you send in a nuke, when a sharpshooter on a roof would be just as effective?

Depends . . . do I give a shit about collateral damage or not?

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 28):
Your "solution" is NEVER going to happen.

Certainly we'll never get them all . . . never. Only a fool would think otherwise. But those we DO catch, that's the answer. Send their asses packing. Bye bye.

Start there, then go after the employers . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
EvilForce
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:46 pm



Quoting Mham001 (Reply 30):
Well, I stopped reading right there because that statement is patently false.

Dude, those aren't my words. They are the findings of Chapman University - School of Business & Economics.

If it is patently false it should be quite easy to find the flaws in their statistical analysis then no? For over a thousand years men perceived the world to be flat. It didn't make it true. If you don't challenge your own perceptions from time to time, how do you know you right? If you are unwilling to even consider the possibility that your perception may not be reality, isn't that just an illogical response? Which is what I've said repeatedly here. Immigration is an emotional, scare tactic issue, without much basis in fact?
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:48 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 31):
Ok, for a 4th time. How do you dislodge 13 million people? It can't be done in any pragmatic sense of the word. You haven't provided any enlightenment on the logistics of your proposal. Why is that?

Shall we discuss how many dump trucks it would take to move Mt. Shasta 500 miles? Shall we discuss how many angels can stand on the head of a pin? Or how much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? Because those are all about as realistic as your claim of displacing 13 million people. *shrug*

Force, you may not be old enough to remember this but back in the day when I lived in Jersey Bob and Ray were on the radio doing comedy routines. Imagine! People listening to the radio.

One time they did this "Inquiring Reporter" schtick.

There they were asking people on the sidewalk with a straight face what they thought of Mayor Lindsay's plan to move the Empire State Building ten blocks south of where it is.

An awful lot of people said they thought it was going to snarl traffic, but yes, it was a good idea, or no, it wasn't a good idea.

The point is, an awful lot of people bought into a completely ludicrous proposition.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
EvilForce
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:52 pm



Quoting Tugger (Reply 33):
EvilForce will you or someone answer my question (or at least give some insight):

It's a good point. I'm not sure yet how to sum up how I think it "would" work or "could" work. I wanted to reread the guest worker provisions in the last few Congressional bills for some additional framework in which to answer you. Perhaps someone else will weigh in first. My reply to you on this will be later this evening or in the morning after I've had a chance to read the guest worker provisions.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:58 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 29):
Yellowstone doesn't think so, but that was a solid Godwin... Unless you think repatriation and extermination are valid comparissons.

I made no such comparison. EvilForce was discussing the rounding up of millions of people, the removal of those people from society. Whether you want to admit it or not, that is what the "send 'em all back" people are proposing, and that was also a key step in Hitler's policy toward the Jews. The next steps taken (extradition vs. extermination) are of course not comparable, but that's not what I or EvilForce were talking about. The way I interpret the point is this: history seems to indicate that roundups on this scale can only be carried out by dictatorial, inhumane governments (the Nazis being an extreme example). To carry out the roundup, America's government would probably have to become dictatorial and inhumane itself, which is not a sacrifice we should be willing to make.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
andessmf
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:02 pm

HELLOOOOO!!! ANYBODY THERE???

As the husband of a Mexican national, being a naturalized citizen myself, I perhaps can give you all a little more information about a very complex issue, instead of the 'talking points' a lot of you are going on about.

1. As I stated above, the MINORITY of illegal immigrants DO NOT carry (fake) paperwork. The majority of them carry fake papers that allow them to work and PAY TAXES. This means that governments are NOT interested in removing a tax base, regardless of what they say.

2. Whoever carries paperwork, has a FAKE Social Security #, at least 9 million. They PAY into the system, but the Federal government does NOT refund them. The Feds have no incentive to take them out.

3. (What I rant about) The native population of the US is stagnant. You need people for economic growth. Only immigrants are able to provide this, not only in the US, but Europe as well.

4. BUT...so many 'rights' have been granted to illegals, that many here in Cali. are getting up to $20-30/hr. for work. And now additional 'rights' are being demanded by them. US citizenship IS NOT A RIGHT, IT IS A PRIVILEDGE.

5. Whether we like it or not, illegal immigration from Mexico has been a part of the US for decades. My wife's grandpa crossed the border 50 years ago, and lost friends in the desert. His boss liked him and got him papers. My father-in-law did the same, and received a green card from his father being legal. We cannot eliminate this problem just like that.

6. The Mexican government needs to take responsibility for their own citizens. It is very hard for the US to send a criminal back, when in all probability that criminal will come right back and recommit. The US takes control over this problem by keeping them in jail HERE.
 
PSA53
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:04 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 31):

So,you're saying the flow of 1st generation illegal immigration can't be fixed and should be allowed to continue?The dam is broken?The numbers should be allowed to increase?By how much?

That is the problem.1st genrations crossing has not stopped and not for decades and there is no end in sight and that the first generation has not dissappeared or worked in with mainstream America because the flow continues.Is it in your budget that number can increase the flow for another two decades?It must be nice.

We looked away,as Americans, for decades and took care of people of many nations.I with the next guy.Let's get rid of poverty.But when the system is going broke,it's time to put up the stop sign.
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
EvilForce
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:06 pm



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 38):
An awful lot of people said they thought it was going to snarl traffic, but yes, it was a good idea, or no, it wasn't a good idea.

The point is, an awful lot of people bought into a completely ludicrous proposition.

Radio? What is this strange object of which you speak?  Wink

But I agree with both of your posts so far. I guess when I see others react in an over-emotional manner (from my perspective) or even when I myself react to something with strong emotions I try to understand why. If I can cut thru the emotional response, and get to the logical response I understand the situation better. So far I haven't seen much other than appeals to emotionalism and Bulverism. *shrug*
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
MDorBust
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:09 pm



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 40):
I made no such comparison.

Nor did I say you did.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 40):
the removal of those people from society. Whether you want to admit it or not, that is what the "send 'em all back" people are proposing

Yes, sending them back is exactly what is being proposed.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 40):
....and that was also a key step in Hitler's policy toward the Jews.

I must have missed that part of history... several million jewish people also missed out on the being sent back portion...

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 40):
... but that's not what I or EvilForce were talking about.

 redflag  Evilforce most likely knew exactly what he was doing when he played the Nazi card.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 40):
The way I interpret the point is this: history seems to indicate that roundups on this scale can only be carried out by dictatorial, inhumane governments

So, I guess you would also not like to admit that we currently are and have been for decades putting illegal immigrants on buses and sending them home?

What is it about this process that leads to being so vehemently ignored?

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 40):
To carry out the roundup, America's government would probably have to become dictatorial and inhumane itself, which is not a sacrifice we should be willing to make.

Or we could just process them as they pass through the legal system, like a great many do every year. Get picked up by the popos during the normal conduct of their duty, get sent home. There's no door kicking. There's no raids and tyranny. There's just what goes on every day in the US. Which is funny, since EvilForce mentioned scaremongering in his OP... but look who is doing the scaremongering now.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
EvilForce
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:17 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 44):
So, I guess you would also not like to admit that we currently are and have been for decades putting illegal immigrants on buses and sending them home?

Since your future plan of action is the exact plan the USA has been following "for decades" then nothing needs to change. So you are agreeing with me that it isn't a big problem that needs changing. Why didn't you just say "EvilForce I agree with you" at the outset?
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
EvilForce
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:21 pm



Quoting PSA53 (Reply 42):
But when the system is going broke,it's time to put up the stop sign.

Which system are you referring to? Social security? Medicare? I'm not entirely sure.

If you are speaking about SS/Medicare in my opening post there was some economic information listed that showed that illegal immigration is actually adding money to the coffers of the SS/Medicare trust fund. Not depleting it. Perhaps I'm addressing the wrong system though.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
MDorBust
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:22 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 45):
Since your future plan of action is the exact plan the USA has been following "for decades" then nothing needs to change.

Uh no, Not so much.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 45):
So you are agreeing with me that it isn't a big problem that needs changing

Uh no, not so much.

You are forgetting the one vital step. Cut off the flow of illegal immigrants coming into the nation. Currently we are bailing water, but we forgot to plug the hole.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:22 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 19):
As far as dislodging a population integrated into a country, is simply unheard of on that size. I suppose the closest anyone ever came was the Nazi's in eliminating 6 million Jews. Personally I don't think "the final solution" would work in America. Certainly not in an America I want to live in.

In consideration of your last post, exactly what kind of appeal to logic were you undertaking with this quoted nonsense?

Let's put everything aside for a moment EF, and start from a common point of reference. Do you support a secure southern border?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
PSA53
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RE: Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:34 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 46):
Quoting PSA53 (Reply 42):
But when the system is going broke,it's time to put up the stop sign.

Which system are you referring to? Social security? Medicare? I'm not entirely sure.

I guess you do have an open pocketbook.No budget.Must be nice,Part 2.
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.

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