wingnut767
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Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:28 pm

Al-Qaida commander in Afghanistan killed By PAUL SCHEMM, Associated Press Writer


CAIRO, Egypt - Abu Laith al-Libi, a top al-Qaida commander in Afghanistan who was blamed for bombing a base while Vice President Cheney was visiting last year, has been killed, according to a militant Web site.

Al-Libi was a key link between the Taliban and al-Qaida and was one of the Americans' 12 most-wanted men with a bounty of $200,000 on his head.

The Web site, which frequently carries announcements from militant groups, said al-Libi had been "martyred" but did not say where he was killed.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080131/...p_on_re_mi_ea/al_qaida_afghanistan




They are saying that they got him with a drone and Maverick.




Yakum purkan min shmaya
 
Queso
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:33 pm

AWESOME!!! Great job, guys!

Quoting Wingnut767 (Thread starter):
They are saying that they got him with a drone and Maverick.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h56/kmaf/Crap/2008_01_17reaper.jpg
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:36 pm

That's great! But I'm afraid another one will just take his place and the cycle will continue.
 
wingnut767
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:59 pm



Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 2):
That's great! But I'm afraid another one will just take his place and the cycle will continue.

We have a large stock of mavericks
Yakum purkan min shmaya
 
NWA742
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:02 pm



Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 2):
That's great! But I'm afraid another one will just take his place and the cycle will continue.

So? Then we'll kill him too, and the next one, and the next one. We have more missiles, bombs, and bullets than they do applicants.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:04 pm



Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 2):
That's great! But I'm afraid another one will just take his place and the cycle will continue.

I'm reminded of a Bill Maher segment where he pointed out that we've killed "the No. 3 guy in Al Qaeda" about twelve times now.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
FighterPilot
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:10 pm



Quoting Wingnut767 (Thread starter):
Al-Qaida commander in Afghanistan killed By PAUL SCHEMM, Associated Press Writer

I never thought the news people were that involved with the war!  Wow!  Wink

Cal  airplane 
*Insert Sound Of GE90 Spooling Up Here*
 
Klaus
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:41 pm



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 4):
So? Then we'll kill him too, and the next one, and the next one. We have more missiles, bombs, and bullets than they do applicants.

Thus far it has worked exactly the other way around if you cared to check.
 
NWA742
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:52 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
Thus far it has worked exactly the other way around if you cared to check.

Gee, what a mistake on our part - I mean, history has shown us that ignoring rather than killing them is the better direction....right.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
Queso
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:24 pm



Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 3):
We have a large stock of mavericks



Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
Thus far it has worked exactly the other way around if you cared to check.

I actually agree with you on this one. Considering how the economy of scale concept works, we should consider going with a nuke. Much better bang for the buck.
 
RJdxer
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:55 pm



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 8):
Gee, what a mistake on our part

Yes, Klaus is upset because that man lived a very green lifestyle. As does OBL and all of his friends.

Quoting Queso (Reply 9):
Much better bang for the buck.

Yes but the fallout is a killer.  wink 
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
MDorBust
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:57 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 10):
Yes but the fallout is a killer.

Isn't that a bonus?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
zTagged
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:45 am



Quoting Wingnut767 (Thread starter):
Al-Qaida commander in Afghanistan killed By PAUL SCHEMM

I read that as "Terrorist leader killed by AP writer", not Killed - Written by ..

I'm tired, aren't I?
Something awful.
 
Klaus
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:47 am



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 8):
Gee, what a mistake on our part - I mean, history has shown us that ignoring rather than killing them is the better direction....right.

That's never been the alternative, as discussed many times before.

Quoting Queso (Reply 9):
I actually agree with you on this one. Considering how the economy of scale concept works, we should consider going with a nuke. Much better bang for the buck.

Mass murder on the odd chance of maybe(!) hitting one or two terrorists? Well, your thinking is already difficult to distinguish from theirs, that much is certain.

Remind me again - what was it, again, that made you one of the good guys...?  eyebrow 
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:17 am



Quoting ZTagged (Reply 12):
I read that as "Terrorist leader killed by AP writer", not Killed - Written by ..

That's the way it's written, that's why, I thought the same.

Good that another asshole has left this world, unfortunately another will just step up and take his place though, but at least a significant amount of knowledge and experience has been extinguished. He was a commander because he was extremely good at being an asshole.


Dan Smile
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
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yowza
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:30 am



Quoting Queso (Reply 9):
I actually agree with you on this one. Considering how the economy of scale concept works, we should consider going with a nuke. Much better bang for the buck.

1) The USA would not in this day and age DARE take this action without the express support of the EU. Support it would never get.
2) Even if it did, the rest of the Muslim world would not stand by idly. In all likelihood US entities would endure a shit storm.
3) If you managed to level the whole of West and North Africa, the middle east, Indonesia, Malaysia and all other Muslim dominated spots then what? Birmingham, UK? Where would it stop?

With all of the above in mind not only is your idea ridiculous in its arrogance, it's not something that will ever happen and even if it did that too would only serve to further escalate the problem.

As far this "victory" goes, as long as it's not Osama Bin Laden it is meaningless.

YOWza
 
dl021
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:30 am



Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 2):
I'm afraid another one will just take his place and the cycle will continue.

Probably, but the quality of the replacements has to get worse as you keep proving that its a "killer" job...eventually smart guys won't take the job if they believe that we wont stop killing them.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 5):
I'm reminded of a Bill Maher segment where he pointed out that we've killed "the No. 3 guy in Al Qaeda" about twelve times now.

Yeah....let's keep getting the replacements and make it tougher for them to find competents who are interested in the job.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 4):
So? Then we'll kill him too, and the next one, and the next one. We have more missiles, bombs, and bullets than they do applicants.

I worry that we don't have the national will to stay with the fight long enough to allow political and economic changes to make life sufficiently better in the regions that the terrorists run out of people sufficiently hopeless to become terrorists.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 13):
Remind me again - what was it, again, that made you one of the good guys...?

Defeating Germany in the Second World War for one thing?
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
RJdxer
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:01 am



Quoting YOWza (Reply 15):
) The USA would not in this day and age DARE take this action without the express support of the EU.

You're kidding right?

Quoting YOWza (Reply 15):
If you managed to level the whole of West and North Africa, the middle east, Indonesia, Malaysia and all other Muslim dominated spots then what?

Not that we would use them but there are plenty of nukes that have a yield that is far below that of the city busters loaded on boomers.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
Mir
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:18 am



Quoting DL021 (Reply 16):
Probably, but the quality of the replacements has to get worse as you keep proving that its a "killer" job...eventually smart guys won't take the job if they believe that we wont stop killing them.

Somehow I get the feeling that smart guys aren't taking the job regardless. Either you don't care about being killed (or at least say so), or you don't rise that far in a terrorist organization.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
davestanKSAN
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:24 am



Quoting DL021 (Reply 16):
I worry that we don't have the national will to stay with the fight long enough to allow political and economic changes to make life sufficiently better in the regions that the terrorists run out of people sufficiently hopeless to become terrorists.

But haven't we (the US) done enough for the Iraqi (as one of the regions the terrorists run out of) people? When will the Iraqi government step up and do its part? We have written them a blank check so to speak, and its time they step up to the plate. If not, the time frame for us to be in Iraq (according to some) could be decades away. How long are we willing to let the Iraqi government go without serious pressure on them to step up and change? I realize the transformation won't happen overnight, but has there been any significant benchmarks met by the Iraqi government? How long can we keep up Troop levels (post surge) without significantly thinning our military?

To further that point, what about the Iraqi people? Is there willingness on their part to accept democracy as we have imposed upon them? A viable solution has to be met by both the Iraqi people and by their government.

And haven't we lost track of Afghanistan? President Bush recently said he would add 3,200 Marines there in his State of the Union address. But is it too late? Hasn't President Bush's Iraq War cost us dearly in the fight against terrorists in Afghanistan? I believe it has. How long can we keep fighting two wars with the current Troop levels? How will our Military cope with that?

Just some questions that I feel have been left unanswered.

Dave
Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
 
bagpiper
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:39 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 10):
Yes but the fallout is a killer.

Just detonate higher up then  Wink

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 14):
He was a commander because he was extremely good at being an asshole.

nice one!

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 19):
How long can we keep up Troop levels (post surge) without significantly thinning our military?

You can thank Clinton for that problem.

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 19):

I agree with you - while we need to keep fighting the war, I'm starting to wonder about the $$ issue and the troops. However, I have a feeling that if we don't deal with the "assholes" right now, then it'll be a bigger problem in the future.

Turning a blind eye to the problem doesn't solve it, folks. I learned that in 2nd grade  Wink
 
NWA742
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:01 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 13):
That's never been the alternative, as discussed many times before.

And yet the world in which we've seemingly pissed off so much over Iraq/Afganistan has offered no alternatives other than surrendering and/or negotiation with extremists. Thumbs up to you guys!

Quoting Klaus (Reply 13):
Remind me again - what was it, again, that made you one of the good guys...?

What made us one of the bad ones? I'm not surprised you feel that way, just curious.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 16):
I worry that we don't have the national will to stay with the fight long enough to allow political and economic changes to make life sufficiently better in the regions that the terrorists run out of people sufficiently hopeless to become terrorists.

Yes, I agree. People don't have the stomach for it anymore. We've become a nation of politically correct pussies, and we will pay for it harshly, I'm afraid. I just hope we prevail again.

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." John Stuart Mill.


 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:32 am



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 5):
I'm reminded of a Bill Maher segment where he pointed out that we've killed "the No. 3 guy in Al Qaeda" about twelve times now.

Then #4 had better hope he isn't promoted or ask to be promoted directly alongside #2. In the end, it wouldn't matter, though, if they make the obits - if so, they're all just posturing for rank in their obit headlines.
Living the American Dream
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:07 am

Ever see the movie Traffic? It was about drugs but a lot of things are similar.. not that Afghanistan doesn't have plenty of drug lords.

Anyway, there was a scene almost at the end of Traffic where a witness explains to the cops guarding him how they indirectly work for the drug cartels.

Just like here. We probably got a tip from another bad guy about where this douchebike was hiding. We go blow up the douchebike. Now the army the douchebike commanded is without a leader, and his territory is up for grabs. Who is most likely going to take it over? The guy who gave us the tip. It's a constant game of chasing our tail. I just wonder how many decades are we going to keep playing it for. Yes, we have Al-Queada and the Taliban, and all the other bad guys on the run and going underground. Do people honestly believe we can stop them by killing all of them? They will always be there.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
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RJAF
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:27 am

Good riddance..these people only understand death and violence!
Chance favors the prepared mind
 
baroque
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:47 pm



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 4):
So? Then we'll kill him too, and the next one, and the next one. We have more missiles, bombs, and bullets than they do applicants.

Care to bet?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
Thus far it has worked exactly the other way around if you cared to check.

Just so.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 15):
With all of the above in mind not only is your idea ridiculous in its arrogance, it's not something that will ever happen and even if it did that too would only serve to further escalate the problem.

As far this "victory" goes, as long as it's not Osama Bin Laden it is meaningless.

 checkmark  Except that OBL seems to have done such an excellent job on succession planning that getting OBL would achieve about the same.

Exploding nuclear (or even nucular for all I know) weapons at higher altitudes is not going to cut the radiation very much, but it will make sure it is more rapidly distributed, mostly to the east. So odds on, China will be very unhappy, very soon after.

Since someone asks about what to do, and because killing top terrorists, satisfying at it may be to some, is not exactly bringing excellent overall results you could try negotiating. While I accept that OBL will be a very difficult party with whom to negotiate, the odds are that his replacement will be even more difficult.

Time to at least slow down on bombing and start thinking. The cowboy solution simply does not work. Check on Iraq today!
 
Klaus
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:47 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 16):
Probably, but the quality of the replacements has to get worse as you keep proving that its a "killer" job...eventually smart guys won't take the job if they believe that we wont stop killing them.

Fighting terrorism with blunt force very rarely works, if ever.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 16):
Defeating Germany in the Second World War for one thing?

That was an entirely different generation fighting an entirely different fight. Not realizing the differences is one of the greatest problems the current american generation appears to have.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 21):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 13):
That's never been the alternative, as discussed many times before.

And yet the world in which we've seemingly pissed off so much over Iraq/Afganistan has offered no alternatives other than surrendering and/or negotiation with extremists. Thumbs up to you guys!

Utter nonsense. The media you may be watching may have told you so, but nothing could be further from the truth.

Several european countries have extensive experience with the fight against terrorism, and some of them have actually won that fight. You may be interested to hear that it has never been won with blunt force, though.

And those experiences and the knowledge was and is freely shared - your glorious Bush administration just knew everything better, of course, so they own the resulting disaster just as surely and as thoroughly.

Key in a successful fight against terrorism is to understand how the extremists recruit from their surrounding population, to decisively counter their political strategies and at the same time never letting up with the prosecution pressure by the police (only resorting to military means where absolutely necessary - as against the Taliban).

Mass murder of civilians on the odd chance to hit the occasional terrorist as well may satisfy the bloodlust of a few americans, but it would be an utter failure on its main objective and severely counterproductive on top of that.

If you want terrorism to strengthen and multiply, confirm the (formerly!) nonsensical claims the extremists make by - for instance - needlessly invading another country like Iraq.

Or by indiscriminately detaining and torturing people, even regardless of any actual criminal or terrorist implications as in Abu Ghraib and apparently to this day in Guantanamo Bay.

Stupidity of the highest order - and some of the strongest recruiting drivers for terrorist cells in history.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 21):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 13):
Remind me again - what was it, again, that made you one of the good guys...?

What made us one of the bad ones? I'm not surprised you feel that way, just curious.

I was talking to Queso in response to his delight in imagining mass murder of civilians. Take Iraq, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, "rendition" of "suspects" to be tortured externally on behalf of the USA and some other recent developments on top of it and then try to explain how this US government and its operations, which you and a shrinking number of americans still support to those extremes, were actually striking arguments for you being the "good guys".

And trying to decorate yourself with the medals of your ancestors only makes matters worse again.
 
baroque
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:00 pm

Good grief, joined at the second joint of the typing fingers again it seems. The three secs must be the delay on the circuits to Germany.
 
Queso
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:00 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 13):
Mass murder on the odd chance of maybe(!) hitting one or two terrorists?



Quoting Klaus (Reply 13):
Remind me again - what was it, again, that made you one of the good guys...?



Quoting YOWza (Reply 15):
your idea ridiculous in its arrogance

Wow, tough crowd! I guess I should stick to the squirting flower next time.  Yeah sure

Quoting YOWza (Reply 15):
it's not something that will ever happen



Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
I was talking to Queso in response to his delight in imagining mass murder of civilians.

Aw man, c'mon! "Murder" is such an ugly word. And you don't use the biggest thing in the arsenal, just a small one will do. I'm sure we would get more than one or two terrorists and it would give us something to talk about here other than the sick/dead cat threads.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 13):
Remind me again - what was it, again, that made you one of the good guys...?

Who ever said I was a good guy?  hyper 
 
RJdxer
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:01 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 25):
Since someone asks about what to do, and because killing top terrorists, satisfying at it may be to some, is not exactly bringing excellent overall results you could try negotiating. While I accept that OBL will be a very difficult party with whom to negotiate, the odds are that his replacement will be even more difficult.

Where do you start the negotiating process when their opening position is "you are the devil and we want to kill you"?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
Fighting terrorism with blunt force very rarely works, if ever.

And negotiating with terrorists never works, that's been proven time and again.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
Several european countries have extensive experience with the fight against terrorism, and some of them have actually won that fight. You may be interested to hear that it has never been won with blunt force, though.

You're right, what defeated them was the fall of the eastern block and the loss of their financial support.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
miamiair
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:12 pm

He died of natural causes.

Lead and copper are found in nature are they not?
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:12 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 16):
Probably, but the quality of the replacements has to get worse as you keep proving that its a "killer" job...eventually smart guys won't take the job if they believe that we wont stop killing them.

Problem is that only works on people who haven't made becoming a martyr their lifelong ambition. At some point you need to start thinking bigger than simply killing them off and start eliminating the political and social environments that allow these scum to spawn in the first place. Completely cutting off nations that fund madrassas which churn out future terrorists would be a good start. Except that, ya know, some of the same are supposedly our "allies."
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Queso
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:15 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 30):
He died of natural causes.

Lead and copper are found in nature are they not?

Yeah, but they're not normally used as a suppository at 3,200 fps.
 
RJdxer
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:17 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 31):
Except that, ya know, some of the same are supposedly our "allies."

Then you have to explain how you deal with a Timothy McVeigh. Just because a particular portion of a populace decides they want to be terrorist does not mean that the entire populace or the government wants to be.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
JakeOrion
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:20 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
Several european countries have extensive experience with the fight against terrorism, and some of them have actually won that fight. You may be interested to hear that it has never been won with blunt force, though.

Who? How? When?

I want news articles, facts and links.
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:23 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 33):
Then you have to explain how you deal with a Timothy McVeigh. Just because a particular portion of a populace decides they want to be terrorist does not mean that the entire populace or the government wants to be.

We're not talking about outliers like McVeigh. Curiously, your second sentences has also negated any practical use for nuclear weapons in this fight as well.

Getting back to my point - can you honestly say that we shouldn't be picking more bones with the likes of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
miamiair
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:25 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
Several european countries have extensive experience with the fight against terrorism, and some of them have actually won that fight

I wouldn't say anyone has won that fight yet. That many EU countries have coped and adapted to it, yes. But the US is a larger target for terrorism.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
Not realizing the differences is one of the greatest problems the current american generation appears to have.

Just like the current generation of Euorpeans forget the sacrifices the previous American generation made.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:35 pm



Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 34):
Who? How? When?



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 36):
I wouldn't say anyone has won that fight yet. That many EU countries have coped and adapted to it, yes.

Not to slam my fellow countrymen too hard, but this is part of the reason Americans end up looking like uneducated simpletons on these issues at times. Did ya'll forget about a couple relatively well-known organizations, like I dunno, Sinn Fein and the IRA, and a little country they had a spat with called the UK? Just a minor multidecade campaign characterized by hundreds of bombings, blunt reactionary force that accomplished little more than further terror, and several shitty Hollywood movies.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
miamiair
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:43 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 37):
Did ya'll forget about a couple relatively well-known organizations, like I dunno, Sinn Fein and the IRA, and a little country they had a spat with called the UK?

Do elaborate, I am a dumbass that I don't know my ass from my elbow.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:46 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 37):
and several shitty Hollywood movies.

Then we are in the clear!! I don't think any movies have yet been made about Afghanistan- shitty or otherwise.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
RJdxer
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:02 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 35):
We're not talking about outliers like McVeigh.

A terrorist is a terrorist no matter whether they are one or many. On a strictal numerical basis, McVeigh killed more per person than the 9/11 hijackers did. Then there are the likes of Eric Rudolph. You can't just dismiss them because they are from this country.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 35):
Curiously, your second sentences has also negated any practical use for nuclear weapons in this fight as well.

Except I did not advocate the use of nuclear weapons only to point out that there are weapons that are more discreet than city busters.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 35):
Getting back to my point - can you honestly say that we shouldn't be picking more bones with the likes of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia?

Again, are the governments sponsoring the terrorists? Like Iran is? Or is it a minority of their citizens?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 37):
Just a minor multidecade campaign characterized by hundreds of bombings, blunt reactionary force that accomplished little more than further terror, and several shitty Hollywood movies.

And keeping Northern Ireland as a part of the UK which would mean that one half of the terrorists did not get what they wanted. On top of that, none of the terrorists in northern Ireland has proclaimed the U.S. the great Satan and called for its destruction.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
RJdxer
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:06 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
Stupidity of the highest order - and some of the strongest recruiting drivers for terrorist cells in history.

Of course, evidently so is living in Hamburg.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
baroque
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:25 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 29):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 25):
Since someone asks about what to do, and because killing top terrorists, satisfying at it may be to some, is not exactly bringing excellent overall results you could try negotiating. While I accept that OBL will be a very difficult party with whom to negotiate, the odds are that his replacement will be even more difficult.

Where do you start the negotiating process when their opening position is "you are the devil and we want to kill you"?

Well you start at the beginning. The first thing you need to do is to disregard their extreme statements and try to stop from making them yourself (the two starter ones from GWB were the Crusade and "with us or against us", but then Axis of Evil, and many more since then).

Experience to date suggests that you need the two parties and a third related party that in theory has some sympathy with the weaker party. You also need disinterested assistance from ALL your friends. A lack of pre-conditions also helps.

The matter is complex and there is a huge literature. At the end of this post, I cite some of it. As I do have a day job, there are probably better articles and books had I the time. There are also a number of major research institutions, many in the US, that specialize in the field. You can find those too without too much trouble.

As Aaron suggests you might start with the IRA as an example.

Of course even there you will find dissenting views, such as this one:
http://www.opendemocracy.net/conflict-hostage/article_2132.jsp

However, the basic sequence was a civil war based on a demand for Union of N Ireland with the Republic from the 1920s. The British army was sent in to try to protect the Catholic minority, but soon came into conflict with the IRA as well as having a complex relationship with the Loyalists who opposed the IRA. Heavy security, military force, jailing under harsh conditions, bombs, starvation to death by some IRA prisoners, numerous bombs. Eventually a settlement has been negotiated, For quite a part of that contest, according to a number of posters on this and similar threads, the UK would have been justified in placing a few nuclear explosions over NE US as that is where a large part of the financial support for IRA originated. Aside from other reasons, that would have been rather dumb as a certain US President was of considerable assistance in arranging the negotiated settlement, and had he been nuked, he might not have been so helpful???!!

Happily, in the end, GoUK with the assistance of GoI negotiated a settlement that at present appears to have lead to the lion and the lamb at least sitting at the same table for a vegetarian meal.

The Malayan emergency also involved the military, but most agree that the solution there was political rather than achieved by force.


In terms of the general theory of negotiating with terrorists there is a substantial literature.

Theory of Negotiations with terrorists 78,100 hits

Terrorism: Theory and Applications -
W Enders, T Sandler - Handbook of Defense Economics, 1995 - elsevier.com
Handbook of Defense Economics Volume 1, Chapter 9. Terrorism: Theory and Applications.
Walter Enders and Todd Sandler Iowa State University.

Political Terrorism: Theory, Tactics and Counter-Measures
G Wardlaw - 1989 - books.google.com
... TERRORISM Theory, tactics, and counter-measures SECOND EDITION REVISED AND EXTENDED
GRANT WARDLAW Senior Criminologist Australian Institute of Criminology

http://www.stanford.edu/group/sjir/3.2.09_urrutia.html
Negotiating with Terrorists
A Reassessment of Colombia's Peace Policy by Nicolas Urrutia

http://interneg.org/interneg/referen...rnals/in/volumes/8/abstracts3.html
In part:
"Abstracts Vol. 8, no. 3 2003

Negotiating with Terrorists
tI. WILLIAM ZARTMAN
School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS), The Johns Hopkins University, 1740 Massachusetts Avenue, NW, Washington DC 20036 USA (E-mail: izartma1@jhu.edu)
tNegotiating with terrorists is possible, within limits, as the articles in this issue show and explore. Limits come initially in the distinction between absolute and contingent terrorists, and then between revolutionary and conditional absolutes and between barricaders, kidnappers and hijackers in the contingent category. Revolutionary absolute are nonnegotiable adversaries, but even conditional absolutes are potentially negotiable and contingent terrorists actually seek negotiation. The official negotiator is faced with the task of giving a little in order to get the terrorist to give a lot, a particularly difficult imbalance to obtain given the highly committed and desperate nature of terrorists as they follow rational but highly unconventional tactics. Such are the challenges of negotiating with terrorists that this issue of the journal explores and elucidates.
Key words: negotiation; terrorism; terms of trade; hostages; suicide.
Negotiating the Non-Negotiable: Dealing with Absolutist Terrorists
t

RICHARD E. HAYES, STACEY R. KAMINSKI and STEVEN M. BERES
Evidence Based Research, Inc., 1595 Spring Hill Road, Suite 250 , Vienna , VA 22182 USA (E-mail: rehayes@ebrinc.com)
tTerrorism has taken on a new form in which loss of life is par for the course and where terrorist demands are often impossible to meet. To combat these new absolutist terrorists, the US government has developed innovative approaches to defend national security, including negotiating with state sponsors of terrorism with the threat of force for noncompliance, isolating the violent actors by offering financial rewards for assistance in combating terror, and offering and employing international intelligence assistance. Each of these approaches, whether it results in a reward or punishment, involves some form of negotiation with the terrorists or those who support them to gain the information necessary to disrupt terrorist networks and convict those responsible.
Key words: terrorism, Al Qaeda, government, negotiation, security, Taliban
Negotiating with Terrorists: The Hostage Case
tGUY OLIVIER FAURE
Université de Paris V -- Sorbonne, Paris , France (Email: go.faure@free.fr)
tThis article provides an overview of hostage negotiations, drawing upon historical cases and analyzing them from the perspective of negotiation theory. Various situational factors are studied, including the parties involved, hostage taker motivations and profiles, negotiator objectives and what is considered to be negotiable, the issue of legitimacy, and the negotiation context. The article also analyzes the dynamics of the negotiation process, addressing the different phases, hostage attitudes, information gathering, and the role of the media and public opinion. The intercultural and psychological dimensions of hostage negotiation are also addressed. The final section of the article considers end-game scenarios, and assessing the negotiation outcome of such complex and uncertain processes.
Key words: Negotiation, terrorists, hostages, kidnapping, power, ideology, political militants, legitimacy, culture, uncertainty, high stakes, hostage-barricade incidents, fishbowl theory, psychotic behavior, Stockholm syndrome, cognition, values, ethics, "chicken" paradigm.

Contrasting Dynamics of Crisis Negotiations: Barricade versus Kidnapping Incidents
tADAM DOLNIK
WMD Terrorism Project, Chemical and Biological Weapons Nonproliferation Program, Center for Nonproliferation Studies, Monterey Institute of International Studies, 460 Pierce Street, Monterey, CA, 93940 USA (E-mail: adam.dolnik@miis.edu)
tOver the past several decades, crisis negotiation has become the primary method of dealing with hostage incidents in many countries of the world. This article uses the analytical framework of interest-based negotiation to provide a comparative analysis of the negotiation dynamics involved in barricade versus kidnapping incidents. The primary difference between the two scenarios is that the location of the victim(s) as well as that of the perpetrator(s) is unknown in kidnappings. As a result, many of the components of crisis negotiation that have been so successful in resolving barricade situations are inapplicable to kidnappings. This article should help the reader understand the critical differences between the two scenarios, and the implications of those differences for the likelihood of success of different crisis negotiation strategies. Central focus is devoted to premeditated incidents perpetrated by organized groups with a political, criminal, or religious motivation.
Key words: negotiation, hostage, terrorist, kidnapping, crisis, barricade, criminal.

Testing the Role Effect in Terrorist Negotiations "
 
Klaus
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:27 pm



Quoting Queso (Reply 28):
Wow, tough crowd! I guess I should stick to the squirting flower next time.

Probably...

Quoting Queso (Reply 28):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
I was talking to Queso in response to his delight in imagining mass murder of civilians.

Aw man, c'mon! "Murder" is such an ugly word.

A suitably ugly word for a decidedly ugly thing.

Quoting Queso (Reply 28):
And you don't use the biggest thing in the arsenal, just a small one will do.

Just a tiny little mass murder, right?

Quoting Queso (Reply 28):
I'm sure we would get more than one or two terrorists and it would give us something to talk about here other than the sick/dead cat threads.

At the cost of how many civilian casualties?

Quoting Queso (Reply 28):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 13):
Remind me again - what was it, again, that made you one of the good guys...?

Who ever said I was a good guy?

Okay. Thank you for the clarification; Just brace for the consequences.  mischievous 

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 29):
And negotiating with terrorists never works, that's been proven time and again.

Pretty much, yeah. Negotiations or other constructive interactions with the parts of society which would otherwise fund and support the terrorists can work, however, and are often the only thing that does in the long run.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 29):
You're right, what defeated them was the fall of the eastern block and the loss of their financial support.

False. The german terrorists had already been defeated long before that.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 31):
Problem is that only works on people who haven't made becoming a martyr their lifelong ambition. At some point you need to start thinking bigger than simply killing them off and start eliminating the political and social environments that allow these scum to spawn in the first place.

 checkmark 

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 31):
Completely cutting off nations that fund madrassas which churn out future terrorists would be a good start. Except that, ya know, some of the same are supposedly our "allies."

 checkmark 

Which is just one indication that things are not as simple as some make them out to be. No reason the USA could not succeed against the islamists, just not by defiling itself as it has in recent years.

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 34):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
Several european countries have extensive experience with the fight against terrorism, and some of them have actually won that fight. You may be interested to hear that it has never been won with blunt force, though.

Who? How? When?

I want news articles, facts and links.

Look up terrorism in Germany, for instance, keyword "Rote Armee Fraktion" (RAF).

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 36):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
Several european countries have extensive experience with the fight against terrorism, and some of them have actually won that fight

I wouldn't say anyone has won that fight yet. That many EU countries have coped and adapted to it, yes. But the US is a larger target for terrorism.

We've already fought against terrorism for years when americans still thought themselves to be immune against that threat. And even supported various groups engaged in it - just ask the britons or look at Afghanistan or Nicaragua!

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 36):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
Not realizing the differences is one of the greatest problems the current american generation appears to have.

Just like the current generation of Euorpeans forget the sacrifices the previous American generation made.

We don't. You're just not the same guys any more.
 
Klaus
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:30 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 41):
Of course, evidently so is living in Hamburg.

Most hamburgers can bear their dire fate with dignity without becoming terrorists, so that's most probably not it.

Although there's that other kind of hamburgers which probably kills more people every year than all the islamists combined...!  mischievous 
 
miamiair
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:36 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 43):
You're just not the same guys any more.

In your opinion, to which you are entitled.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
Klaus
Posts: 20594
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:40 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 45):
In your opinion, to which you are entitled.

I'm not nearly the only one to see a vast gulf of difference between the former bringers of hope and freedom and the current purveyors of torture, lawlessness and illegitimate warfare.

An increasing number of americans sees it that way as well, so at least some hope remains.
 
baroque
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:45 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 44):
Although there's that other kind of hamburgers which probably kills more people every year than all the Islamists combined...!

Reminds me of the TV program Sleek Geeks http://www.abc.net.au/tv/guide/netw/...rams/ZY8971A006D7022008T200000.htm
where Carl K and Adam Spencer ask which is the most dangerous of five options. The benchmark is a shark attack with 4 other options each time. Visit from girl scouts was the winning option a couple of weeks ago, their trans fat cookies being many times more dangerous than a shark attack on a fatality basis. And we all know which is the most dangerous sport - lawn bowls.
 
Queso
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:47 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 46):
I'm not nearly the only one to see a vast gulf of difference between the former bringers of hope and freedom and the current purveyors of torture, lawlessness and illegitimate warfare.

Klaus, what would peaceniks like you do without war mongers like me? You'd be in chains (or worse) right now. Truth is, you appreciate our existence far more than you'd ever care to admit- even to yourself.
 
Klaus
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RE: Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed

Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:51 pm



Quoting Queso (Reply 48):
Klaus, what would peaceniks like you do without war mongers like me? You'd be in chains (or worse) right now. Truth is, you appreciate our existence far more than you'd ever care to admit- even to yourself.

There is a world of difference between warmongers and war winners.

You, Bush and Cheney could take a few lessons to learn what that difference actually entails.

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