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nighthawk
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Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:03 pm



Quote:

Microsoft has offered to buy the search engine company Yahoo for $44.6bn (£22.4bn) in cash and shares.

The offer, contained in a letter to Yahoo's board, represents a 62% premium above Yahoo's closing share price on the Nasdaq on Thursday.

It is an attempt by Microsoft to improve the online services that it offers to its customers.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7222114.stm

that should give google a run for its money! But $44bn? jesus!
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:09 pm

Nooooo! I don't want Micorosft to run Yahoo. I like it how it is.
Blue
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ZakHH
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:07 pm

Why you think Yahoo is a cool company?
 Wink
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ltbewr
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:13 pm

NO NO NO NO. This should be denied on anti-trust grounds by US and EC regulators. It would destroy 1000's of good paying jobs in the USA and the rest of the world, it would give MS too much power in the computer world, where the already monopolise as to operating and other critical software and it would destroy and discourage competition and innovation in tech.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:35 pm



Quoting ZakHH (Reply 2):
Why you think Yahoo is a cool company?

Yahoo provides at least a relatively spam free email system, compared to Microsift's Hotmail.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
futurecaptain
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:46 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4):
Yahoo provides at least a relatively spam free email system

 rotfl 
I get 5-10 spam messages a day. Ever since moving over to the new and improved yahoo mail I can't block e-mail addresses anymore so spam pours into my inbox.
AirSO. ASpaceO. ASOnline. ASO.com ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO.
 
Ps76
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:36 pm

Wow $44Bn! You could probably buy quite a few countries for that amount of cash(!)

Maybe they could just do that instead - Microsoftland!

P.
 
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yowza
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:04 pm



Quoting Nighthawk (Thread starter):

that should give google a run for its money! But $44bn? jesus!

Wow this dwarfs the $20M they paid to buy some of my company's IP last year.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 3):
NO NO NO NO. This should be denied on anti-trust grounds by US and EC regulators. It would destroy 1000's of good paying jobs in the USA and the rest of the world, it would give MS too much power in the computer world, where the already monopolise as to operating and other critical software and it would destroy and discourage competition and innovation in tech.

That's completely wrong. The main purpose of this deal from MS's perspective would be to bolster their offerings in an effort to combat the booming Google.

At this stage there is now way to know that 1000s of jobs would be lost. As far as having too much power in the computer world that is also wrong. One must understand that though they have achieved OS dominance the Web (an entirely different entity) is still wide open with the biggest and most dominant player being Google.

YOWza
 
aace24
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:31 pm

There goes my Yahoo e-mail account down the drain.

I'm glad I use Gmail as my primary one.

Microsoft can go to Hell.
 
aace24
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:32 pm



Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 5):
I get 5-10 spam messages a day. Ever since moving over to the new and improved yahoo mail I can't block e-mail addresses anymore so spam pours into my inbox.

It might pay off to read his whole post.

He said compared to Hotmail, which I got nearly 15-20 spammers a day when I had it.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:43 pm

I doubt the EU and US antitrust authorities will allow this deal to happen. The only reason Microsoft is even considering it is because Yahoo is losing money, which probably makes it cheaper for them to buy out Yahoo and make their applications their own. But still, I doubt the antitrust authorities will allow this deal, Yahoo and Microshaft are too big for it and it would create the possibility of a monopoly.
 
Pope
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:04 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 10):
I doubt the EU and US antitrust authorities will allow this deal to happen.

Why? What part of the market does MS gain a monopoly in as a result of this transaction?
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
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yowza
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:15 pm



Quoting AAce24 (Reply 8):
There goes my Yahoo e-mail account down the drain.

I'm glad I use Gmail as my primary one.

Microsoft can go to Hell.

Wow such disdain. Care to elicit exactly what MS has done to breed such hatred in you? Or are you just like 90% of MS haters, who hate just because they are on top?

YOWza
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:16 pm



Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 5):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4):
Yahoo provides at least a relatively spam free email system

rotfl
I get 5-10 spam messages a day. Ever since moving over to the new and improved yahoo mail I can't block e-mail addresses anymore so spam pours into my inbox.

With Yahoo, 95% of the spam messages end up in the junk mail box, with maybe 2-3 aday in the inbox, but with Hotmail most end up in the inbox.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
aace24
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:17 pm



Quoting YOWza (Reply 12):
Wow such disdain. Care to elicit exactly what MS has done to breed such hatred in you? Or are you just like 90% of MS haters, who hate just because they are on top?

Nope, I'm actually a proud MAC user.

Just because they are on top, doesn't mean they offer the best product.

I never have any problems with my MacBook, can't say the same for past Windows machines I have owned....
 
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yowza
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:25 pm



Quoting AAce24 (Reply 14):
Nope, I'm actually a proud MAC user.

Just because they are on top, doesn't mean they offer the best product.

I never have any problems with my MacBook, can't say the same for past Windows machines I have owned....

Wow, you're a Mac user! Amazing! Do you power your Mac with you own sense of self satisfaction? Do you have enough knowledge to make a meaningful assessment or have you been so well hooked by kitschy marketing that you have this inexplicable, zealous fidelity to Mac? You failing to maintain and operate a PC is hardly the fault of MS. It boggles my mind how people can make such brash statements in domains they know nothing about.

YOWza
 
aace24
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:38 pm



Quoting YOWza (Reply 15):
Wow, you're a Mac user! Amazing! Do you power your Mac with you own sense of self satisfaction? Do you have enough knowledge to make a meaningful assessment or have you been so well hooked by kitschy marketing that you have this inexplicable, zealous fidelity to Mac? You failing to maintain and operate a PC is hardly the fault of MS. It boggles my mind how people can make such brash statements in domains they know nothing about.

How in the Hell would you know how much I know about computers?

Looks like you're the one making brash statements about something you know nothing about.

I'm sorry if you have a problem with me making negative statements about Microsoft, but trust me, I'm not the only one.
 
SBBRTech
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:57 pm



Quoting Ps76 (Reply 6):
Wow $44Bn! You could probably buy quite a few countries for that amount of cash(!)

Maybe they could just do that instead - Microsoftland!

Bill could go and buy Yahoo with his own money and become the only guy in the planet with a @yahoo mail account.
"I'm beginning to get the hang of this flying business" - C3PO
 
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yowza
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:36 pm



Quoting AAce24 (Reply 16):
How in the Hell would you know how much I know about computers?

Looks like you're the one making brash statements about something you know nothing about.

I'm sorry if you have a problem with me making negative statements about Microsoft, but trust me, I'm not the only one.

Age 16-20, so unless you're a child prodigy I'm assuming you don't have a Software Engineering degree. I on the other hand do. Nothing brash about that.

As for you not being the only one, well

Quoting YOWza (Reply 15):
It boggles my mind how people can make such brash statements in domains they know nothing about.

people is plural. Do you need some clarification?

YOWza
 
aace24
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:50 pm



Quoting YOWza (Reply 18):
Age 16-20, so unless you're a child prodigy I'm assuming you don't have a Software Engineering degree. I on the other hand do. Nothing brash about that.

I'm 20 and in college, I've been around computers pretty much my whole life.

It doesn't take a software engineering degree to know a lot about computers. I made the decision to switch to a MAC, and I haven't had any problems so far.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 18):
people is plural. Do you need some clarification?

I think I'll pass on the clarification.

But thanks anyway.  Yeah sure
 
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yowza
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:02 pm



Quoting AAce24 (Reply 19):
I'm 20 and in college, I've been around computers pretty much my whole life.

It doesn't take a software engineering degree to know a lot about computers. I made the decision to switch to a MAC, and I haven't had any problems so far.

Any 20 year old in the developed world has been around computers pretty much their whole life. Besides the last time I checked Microsoft's focus is not making computers, they make software, hence MicroSOFT. Since they make software, understanding of software design, implementation and maintenance is a huge factor.

Would you value the opinion on a a manual transmission design from somebody who can't drive standard?

YOWza
 
aace24
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:08 pm



Quoting YOWza (Reply 20):
Besides the last time I checked Microsoft's focus is not making computers, they make software, hence MicroSOFT.

First of all, I used the word "computer" loosely. As in the whole general aspect of things. I'm fully aware that Microsoft makes software, not computers.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 20):
Would you value the opinion on a a manual transmission design from somebody who can't drive standard?

Second of all, just because someone isn't a "software engineer" means they can't have an opinion on whether they think Microsoft sucks? My opinion was based solely on first hand experience with Windows, it had lots of security problems, too much junk you don't need.
 
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yowza
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:22 pm



Quoting AAce24 (Reply 21):
First of all, I used the word "computer" loosely. As in the whole general aspect of things. I'm fully aware that Microsoft makes software, not computers.

That in itself displays a lack of understanding.

Quoting AAce24 (Reply 21):

Second of all, just because someone isn't a "software engineer" means they can't have an opinion on whether they think Microsoft sucks? My opinion was based solely on first hand experience with Windows, it had lots of security problems, too much junk you don't need.

You are entitled to your opinion. I have never said otherwise. All I've been trying to get out of you since the first post was on what basis you made your assertion that they suck. It took till now for you to name reasons. Security wise I would agree there are some vulnerabilities, but nothing glaring. If you think you are home free on the Mac you are wrong. As for the "junk" everything that is non-essential can be disabled.

Don't get me wrong I'm not shitting on the mac. In fact I am contemplating getting one to fiddle with.

YOWza
 
ORFflyer
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:27 pm



Quoting YOWza (Reply 18):
I'm assuming you don't have a Software Engineering degree. I on the other hand do.

And like most software engineers, you have the tact of a freight train running through a glass factory.  Yeah sure


Personally, I don't give a crap about who MS buys, or how much money Bill Gates makes. Until someone else takes over market share - Microsoft will stay on top. And to take over market share, someone will have to build a better mousetrap.
 
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nighthawk
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:37 pm



Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 23):
Until someone else takes over market share - Microsoft will stay on top

ever considered a career as a business consultant? Companys will pay a fortune for such words of wisdom  Silly
 
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yowza
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:07 pm



Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 23):
And like most software engineers, you have the tact of a freight train running through a glass factory.

Well normally I have a tremendous amount of tact but if you follow the thread you will see that I was challenged in such a way that necessitated that response that you have quoted.

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 23):
Personally, I don't give a crap about who MS buys, or how much money Bill Gates makes. Until someone else takes over market share - Microsoft will stay on top. And to take over market share, someone will have to build a better mousetrap.

Already happening. Google is the most dynamic software company in the world. With the cost of reliable, high bandwidth internet connections plummeting their model is pushing them to migrate applications to central installations local computers to servers. The next step being a stripped down OS that require very little maintenance, and has very low overheads. The impetus is set to shift to the remote server and to the internet connection supplying the client. It is exactly for this reason that MS are pursuing Yahoo, to take on Google.

YOWza
 
Pyrex
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:24 pm



Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 23):
And to take over market share, someone will have to build a better mousetrap.

Not only that, but also an open mousetrap, not one that only works with Mac (&?) cheese.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:26 pm



Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 23):
And to take over market share, someone will have to build a better mousetrap.

Alternatives exist, e.g. I have been using Linux since years on my desktop ( I moved over after I had repeated problems with Windows 1998) and I'm quite happy with it. But unregulated capitalism doesn't favour the one who can build a better product, but the one who has better sources of cash to use dumping to prevent any smaller competitor with a better product from emerging. Once the, even less capable, product has a certain market share, and Mircosoft acts like a monopoly, they can push any other competiror out off the market. Most customers go by the price and not by quality.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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yowza
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:00 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 27):
I have been using Linux since years on my desktop

Unfortunately most people are too lazy or inept to do make this change. It's fair enough really, Linux is (or at least was) harder to get off the ground. Through the years I've had Slackware and RedHat boxes. these days I run an Ubuntu box. It's pretty solid but again to be viable to the masses the impetus must come from manufacturers. This year will be important in this regard, some are already dubbing 2008 the year of the wireless tablet, many of which run various flavors of Linux.

YOWza
 
aace24
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:00 pm



Quoting YOWza (Reply 25):
Well normally I have a tremendous amount of tact but if you follow the thread you will see that I was challenged in such a way that necessitated that response that you have quoted.

Really?

Might want to go back and look at who started the challenge.
 
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yowza
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:08 pm



Quoting YOWza (Reply 15):
You failing to maintain and operate a PC is hardly the fault of MS. It boggles my mind how people can make such brash statements in domains they know nothing about.



Quoting AAce24 (Reply 16):
How in the Hell would you know how much I know about computers?

Looks like you're the one making brash statements about something you know nothing about.

So by asserting that I have an software engineering degree and that you don't I was validating my intial pointin response to your defensive jab. Really not that complicated.

YOWza
 
bagpiper
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:40 pm



Quoting AAce24 (Reply 8):
Microsoft can go to Hell.

Wow, how mature! How about you go to hell, too? Just a suggestion.  Wink

Could you give some reasons MS should go to hell?

"If you're catching flak, you're over the target" - so I guess MS is over the target, eh?
 
SBBRTech
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:15 pm



Quoting YOWza (Reply 28):
2008 the year of the wireless tablet, many of which run various flavors of Linux.

I hear you. I'd love to flash my Qtek's ROM with a "LinuxMobile"....but the last linux based smartphone I tried (Motorola A1200i ) seemed too underdeveloped still. That was one ago, don't know what's up now.
M$ has been pushing that same old Win CE/Mobile for years while even Symbian has shown more improvements towards the PDA + cellphone equation.
"I'm beginning to get the hang of this flying business" - C3PO
 
Klaus
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:57 pm



Quoting YOWza (Reply 15):
Do you have enough knowledge to make a meaningful assessment or have you been so well hooked by kitschy marketing that you have this inexplicable, zealous fidelity to Mac?

That's one of the primary mistakes many people make about Apple - underestimating the impact their products have by their own merits.

Even "civilians" can very well realize which system gives them a harder time and which one leaves them more time and nerves for other things; I could toggle in an operating system in binary code if I really had to (actually, I basically did more than once), but my soft- and hardware insight and experience are not central to my system preference.

Give Macs to some random Windows users to own, and you'll notice that within a few hours most of them will be crossing over in amazement and a few days later most of them would bite your head off if you tried to force them back on Windows.

The effect of better or worse usability and impression of quality are often difficult to explain or quantify, but the resulting appreciation (or disdain) cannot just be explained away by a lack of qualification.

Most developers severely underestimate these aspects and it shows - and Microsoft is a prime example of that underestimation.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 15):
You failing to maintain and operate a PC is hardly the fault of MS.

Actually, the severe design mistakes made early on and the shoddy work on usability have a lot to do with most people's problems with Windows. It is not by accident that by far most people who actually have experience with both platforms prefer the Mac by a wide margin.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 20):
Besides the last time I checked Microsoft's focus is not making computers, they make software, hence MicroSOFT. Since they make software, understanding of software design, implementation and maintenance is a huge factor.

At least it should be.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 22):
Security wise I would agree there are some vulnerabilities, but nothing glaring.

Tens of thousands active Windows threats in the wild vs. one or two (debatable ones) for MacOS X would indeed justify the qualification as "glaring" in my book.

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 23):
Personally, I don't give a crap about who MS buys, or how much money Bill Gates makes. Until someone else takes over market share - Microsoft will stay on top. And to take over market share, someone will have to build a better mousetrap.

That already happened. And it is telling that private users are switching over in droves - those people who are paying their own money for machines which they would then use themselves, not IT departments securing their own jobs by keeping maintenance-intensive Windows machines in place in a corporate structure.


Microsoft has been falling behind even more than usual in recent times; MS has always primarily been about market position, not about products. Products have always been an afterthought with MS to achieve or maintain a certain market position. And it shows.

In this current situation, Steve Ballmer has apparently decided that buying Yahoo now would be his best/last chance to counter the still rising Google. Ballmer is on the record to viscerally loathe Google's success - the infamous chair-tossing episode exemplifies it most vividly:
John Battelle's Searchblog: Ballmer Throws A Chair At "F*ing Google"

We all know how rarely complex mergers like that actually work out even under the best of circumstances, and with an almost total duplication (in some cases even triplication!) of both company's offerings the risk of major complications looks larger than the chances of a rousing success, especially when looking at Micorosoft's marginal prowess at making things actually work in the first place.

MS is past its prime and clearly in the defensive (as is Yahoo!), with painful failures on many important fronts. I may be wrong, but to me it looks like a desperate breakout attempt to turn the tide again after all.

Well, good luck with that.
 
Elite
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:26 pm

Apple's operating system is clearly on top after the release of Microsoft Vista. Vista has basically become a major failure for Microsoft, with users, businesses, schools, and retail stores choosing to equip new computers with Windows XP over Vista. Vista has also failed to attempt to copy Apple, with many features and styles similar to Apple. Microsoft was great and I had a great time with 95 and XP, but I believe that Vista shows us that Microsoft is declining. And even the Microsoft fanboys will have to admit that Apple is gaining ground - Microsoft is slowing down. Yes, most computers still use Windows, but it is only because people are used to it and they do not want to change, not because Windows is better. Correct me if I am wrong, but the percentage of PCs that use Windows are decreasing each year.

Now they are trying to increase their online services, but it is a pretty crowded field. Microsoft is still extremely powerful, with Hotmail and MSN Messenger, a stake in Facebook and now possibly buying Yahoo!. While it would be a good move against Google, I am not sure if they will be able to overtake Google. Google is the owner of YouTube, AdSense + AdWords and GMail. AdSense and AdWords are so popular almost all sites have them - just check the top of this thread!

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4):
Yahoo provides at least a relatively spam free email system, compared to Microsift's Hotmail.

Maybe that's true, but I wouldn't know, as I don't use either. But I do know that GMail has a better spam feature than either Yahoo's and Hotmails, and it has other great features such as in-built chat. Of course, both Yahoo and Hotmail scrambled to copy GMail to try to keep up the competition, but it shows who is really in the lead.

In my opinion, Microsoft needs to focus on originality and releasing a better operating system. They are copying competitors, and it is not working. Firefox is gaining on Explorer. Apple OS is gaining on Windows. The iPod beat the Zune and GMail is better than Hotmail. Microsoft needs to work on it's operating system, where a lot of people still put hope in them. They have a huge lead, and they need to take advantage of it before it slips away.
 
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yowza
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:10 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 33):
That's one of the primary mistakes many people make about Apple - underestimating the impact their products have by their own merits.

Please don't get me wrong, I have said throughout this thread that Mac's offer a good experience and for the most part push out solid products. I was more contesting the fan boy nature of AA's comments because he was not really able to give me a reason for his preference. Then when he finally did they were very cliche and I doubt they were his own (more on that later) All of that said if you think the marketing is not the catalyst for Mac's ascendancy we are at odds there.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 33):
The effect of better or worse usability and impression of quality are often difficult to explain or quantify, but the resulting appreciation (or disdain) cannot just be explained away by a lack of qualification.

Most developers severely underestimate these aspects and it shows - and Microsoft is a prime example of that underestimation.

I agree with you that usability is something that many in the development community don't address properly, just because you and I could get by with command lines doesn't mean everyone else can. I personally am very acutely aware of this problem. These days my development duties are very much left to managing developers and doing very little coding of my own. Since our next big project is web-based, one of the initiatives I started was the development of a UI toolkit. Although this toolkit will provide a series of default and template layouts every action and visual element will remain 100% customizable allowing us to emulate settings users are used to, settings we will assign by default depending on their browser/OS combination. I've even boxed out any right click driven actions to keep the Maccies happy.  Smile (Yes I know Mac key and click achieves the same thing)

Quoting Klaus (Reply 33):

Actually, the severe design mistakes made early on and the shoddy work on usability have a lot to do with most people's problems with Windows. It is not by accident that by far most people who actually have experience with both platforms prefer the Mac by a wide margin.

I agree Windows' usability is not flawless, far from it but it still provides more than enough to be productive. As for the early design flaws, yes I agree there are some but slowly these are being pushed out. Ever looked at the code base to Outlook, I have and it's a real kick in the nuts. It was this clumsy stuff that was really holding Outlook back. However, 07 has made some major strides in this regard. OS-wise the same hold true some early shortcuts are proving costly.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 33):

Tens of thousands active Windows threats in the wild vs. one or two (debatable ones) for MacOS X would indeed justify the qualification as "glaring" in my book.

This is a little bit of scare tactics, you make it sound as if all of the tens of thousands will steal all of your information, steal your identity and wipe your HD. In reality most of these threats are minor nuisances. 75% of these can be avoided with a modicum of common sense.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 33):
In this current situation, Steve Ballmer has apparently decided that buying Yahoo now would be his best/last chance to counter the still rising Google. Ballmer is on the record to viscerally loathe Google's success - the infamous chair-tossing episode exemplifies it most vividly:
John Battelle's Searchblog: Ballmer Throws A Chair At "F*ing Google"

This is very well known in MS circles. I work very closely with the SQL Group, with guys like Jason Carlson and Brian Welker, they love telling stories about Ballmer's latest eruptions.

I have nothing against Apple, as I mentioned above I'm contemplating a Mac for my secondary laptop, although it's more likely to be tertiary as I have an EEE PC on the way. I got into this debate because of a childish statement with no justification, not even a bad one. People need to understand different things work for different people and one ignorant user's bad experience should hardly determine the value of a multi-billion dollar corporation.

YOWza
 
Klaus
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:20 am



Quoting YOWza (Reply 35):
Please don't get me wrong, I have said throughout this thread that Mac's offer a good experience and for the most part push out solid products. I was more contesting the fan boy nature of AA's comments because he was not really able to give me a reason for his preference.

That's what I was getting at - good usability and an overall positive user experience is quite difficult to describe and argue, even if it is immediately obvious to anybody actually experiencing it. But that still does not nullify it as a valid reason for a platform decision.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 35):
Then when he finally did they were very cliche and I doubt they were his own (more on that later) All of that said if you think the marketing is not the catalyst for Mac's ascendancy we are at odds there.

Is your conclusion that if the difference is difficult to describe, it must by necessity be due to the user just being hoodwinked by clever marketing?

No, that is not the only possible explanation. There is a much simpler explanation: The products just don't suck as hard as most people have come to expect from many years of having their expectations frustrated and lowered to the point of open cynicism.

The reactions can vary from a simple sigh of relief to the kind of exuberance you obviously find so irritating.

But it has very little to do with marketing. It works just the same with people who've never seen a single Apple commercial.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 35):
I agree with you that usability is something that many in the development community don't address properly, just because you and I could get by with command lines doesn't mean everyone else can. I personally am very acutely aware of this problem. These days my development duties are very much left to managing developers and doing very little coding of my own. Since our next big project is web-based, one of the initiatives I started was the development of a UI toolkit. Although this toolkit will provide a series of default and template layouts every action and visual element will remain 100% customizable allowing us to emulate settings users are used to, settings we will assign by default depending on their browser/OS combination. I've even boxed out any right click driven actions to keep the Maccies happy.   (Yes I know Mac key and click achieves the same thing)

That's actually a pretty good illustration of the problem:

- Your information is outdated. The days of the single-button mouse are long over and all MacBooks support secondary clicks directly without a key prefix as well. Even though contextual menus are present pretty much everywhere on a Mac, they are very rarely actually required to do anything, and that is A Good Thing.

- I don't know the specifics of what you're doing (so the following cannot specifically refer to your project), but in most systems and applications the problem is not really one of lacking feasibility but one of lacking obviousness. Most developers have a really hard time imagining how their users perceive a usage situation and which ways to use a system come naturally and obviously to them. Designing software in a way that makes it obvious and effortless for the user is incredibly difficult and is usually completely neglected.

Apple has been the first major manufacturer to actually put major effort into usability research, and they've never let up with that. Microsoft's problem is that they have never got the hang of it in that regard, and it shows. Their products are generally technically competent but pretty hopeless from a usability point of view - despite (and at least in part because of) all the candy colours and the colourful backgrounds and wizards. As a result, those products give the user the impression that they're increasingly suffocating under their own weight. That is one of the main weaknesses MS is really battling - they have no idea how to make things simple without breaking them.

Does that bode well for "MicroHoo"? I seriously doubt it. Structural problems can't be overcome by dumping more mass onto them.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 35):
I agree Windows' usability is not flawless, far from it but it still provides more than enough to be productive.

That is the whole problem: Productivity is not supported by the sheer amount of functionality, it is supported by the ease to get where one wants to go. 500 theoretical functions are pointless when most users won't ever bother to use more than 20 because it's so damn hard to use the rest of them. Most people will simply discard what's not in relatively easy reach.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 35):
As for the early design flaws, yes I agree there are some but slowly these are being pushed out. Ever looked at the code base to Outlook, I have and it's a real kick in the nuts. It was this clumsy stuff that was really holding Outlook back. However, 07 has made some major strides in this regard. OS-wise the same hold true some early shortcuts are proving costly.

When I'm looking at Vista, it simply takes the same mistakes just to a new level. The kind of thinking has not changed.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 35):
This is a little bit of scare tactics, you make it sound as if all of the tens of thousands will steal all of your information, steal your identity and wipe your HD. In reality most of these threats are minor nuisances. 75% of these can be avoided with a modicum of common sense.

25% of (assumed very conservatively) 20000 would still leave 5000 serious threats.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 35):
This is very well known in MS circles. I work very closely with the SQL Group, with guys like Jason Carlson and Brian Welker, they love telling stories about Ballmer's latest eruptions.

Yeah, he's building quite a reputation with those...  mischievous 

Quoting YOWza (Reply 35):
I have nothing against Apple, as I mentioned above I'm contemplating a Mac for my secondary laptop, although it's more likely to be tertiary as I have an EEE PC on the way. I got into this debate because of a childish statement with no justification, not even a bad one. People need to understand different things work for different people and one ignorant user's bad experience should hardly determine the value of a multi-billion dollar corporation.

The problem for Microsoft is that
a) his personal opinion has not necessarily (or even probably) to do with "ignorance" - it is simply the result of vastly different user experiences
b) he is part of a rapidly growing part of the overall customer base which agrees on this view.

I can see how AAce24's exuberance rubs you the wrong way, but I think you're underestimating the severity of the development behind it.

As I said above: Microsoft has never been about their products, and that is increasingly becoming a problem for them.

With Linux as an increasingly viable alternative in the corporate space at zero licensing cost on one side and on the other Apple's MacOS X as an increasingly attractive alternative for users who can choose for themselves, Microsoft is getting squeezed - still relatively gently at this point, but as a manufacturer with "inevitability" as its main selling point in the absence of actual product attraction this is not a good place to be for the long haul.

In this perspective I see the Yahoo takeover attempt as a defensive move to at least stave off Google on the crumbling online front. But to create a winner from two former losers takes actual original ideas - the old bundling tactic is not just increasingly problematic (the EU commission has been far less permissive than the US anti-trust regulations) but it is also plagued by progressively diminishing returns.

I doubt that Ballmer really knows what he's doing there - without new ideas of his own he's just running out of options.
 
Springbok747
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:10 am

Has Microsoft already bought Yahoo? This was the first thing I saw when I went to the Yahoo page today...hmm interesting..they're already badmouthing the Macbook air.

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bagpiper
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:30 am



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 37):
they're already badmouthing the Macbook air.

CNN has done the same thing - "badmouthing" Mac.


Oh noes, MS must own them too!!  Wink



They're just reporting the news in the typical media fashion.... make something look horrible just to get those extra clicks on their website.
 
Klaus
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:35 am



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 37):
Has Microsoft already bought Yahoo? This was the first thing I saw when I went to the Yahoo page today...hmm interesting..they're already badmouthing the Macbook air.

I see nothing really out of the ordinary... many people (and especially journalists) are complaining about real or imagined shortcomings of the Air - as is by now to be expected for a new and unusual model. Very similar to the first iPod, the iPhone, the iMac and other products running askew of conventional expectations.
 
a380us
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:24 am

Highly doubt this will happen
Yahoo just seems to big to be purchased
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andz
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:43 am

Sky News just reported that Yahoo are going to reject the offer, calling it "massively undervalued".

This according to the WSJ.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
LASoctoberB6
Posts: 1936
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:26 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 36):



Quoting YOWza (Reply 35):



Quoting Klaus (Reply 33):

I really hate it when you guys make these big long posts. I really want to be able to understand where you're coming from, but looking at those just turn me away. Maybe I'm just tired.  Smile
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Klaus
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:49 am



Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Reply 42):
I really hate it when you guys make these big long posts. I really want to be able to understand where you're coming from, but looking at those just turn me away. Maybe I'm just tired.

Sorry!  Smile
 
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yowza
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:01 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 36):
That

Well Klaus, I know that you are a champion of Apple and that's OK because you do make valid points with sound reason. This is more than can be said for the bulk of Mac aficionados. We could hash through the debate many times but for me personally the Mac can never be my number on machine because I work heavily in .NET and the idea of MONO for developing does not sit well at all!

As for AA, I will wager that he's not a lifelong convert  Wink

Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Reply 42):
I really hate it when you guys make these big long posts. I really want to be able to understand where you're coming from, but looking at those just turn me away. Maybe I'm just tired.

Sorry man I know I know where you're coming from.

YOWza
 
Klaus
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:21 am



Quoting YOWza (Reply 44):
Well Klaus, I know that you are a champion of Apple and that's OK because you do make valid points with sound reason.

At least I'm trying to...

Quoting YOWza (Reply 44):
This is more than can be said for the bulk of Mac aficionados.

It may sometimes appear that way; But once you take a closer look at the issue, the reason why so many Mac users seem to have a problem defining what exactly it is that makes the difference for them is also the reason why Apple's competition for the most part fails to grasp it either!

Much of the difference is intangible but nevertheless undoubtedly real...

Quoting YOWza (Reply 44):
We could hash through the debate many times but for me personally the Mac can never be my number on machine because I work heavily in .NET and the idea of MONO for developing does not sit well at all!

As far as I can see there is no reason why you couldn't run your favourite .NET development framework within Windows while the rest of your applications still run under MacOS X - that's the beauty of the seamless integration across different operating systems with Parallels Desktop or VMWare

The greatest thing is that on a Mac, you simply don't have to choose one or the other any more - you simply get all of it!

Quoting YOWza (Reply 44):
As for AA, I will wager that he's not a lifelong convert

That would be a contradiction in terms anyway, if you think about it...!  mischievous 


To the topic: Apparently Yahoo has officially rejected the offer from Microsoft - at least for now...
 
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yowza
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:24 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 45):

To the topic: Apparently Yahoo has officially rejected the offer from Microsoft - at least for now...

Ya they did, I'm in San Jose right now and it's all people seem to be talking about.

YOWza
 
Klaus
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:30 am



Quoting YOWza (Reply 46):
Ya they did, I'm in San Jose right now and it's all people seem to be talking about.

And looking at the way the two stocks have developed, investors appear to believe as well that it would be a great opportunity for the Yahoo owners to cash out, but a bad idea for Microsoft.

I would not really disagree on that. Not that I couldn't derive at least a little bit of cruel fascination for the sinking of the Titan(ic)...  mischievous 
 
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yowza
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:47 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 47):
And looking at the way the two stocks have developed, investors appear to believe as well that it would be a great opportunity for the Yahoo owners to cash out, but a bad idea for Microsoft.

I would not really disagree on that. Not that I couldn't derive at least a little bit of cruel fascination for the sinking of the Titan(ic)...

hehe at least you're coming clean.

The way I see it this deal will happen one way or another. On its own Yahoo is vulnerable it needs cash and other backing to remain a player. These things can only happen under a merger or an acquisition. Now that the news of this buyout not happening is out Yahoo stock will fall again MSFT will pick up whatever they can and will chip away till they get what they want. That is unless another suitor jumps out of the wings but I dunno about that.

YOWza
 
Soku39
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RE: Microsoft Wants To Purchase Yahoo For $44bn

Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:24 am

I just hope that nothing would happen to flickr if this were to go through... I love that site.  Sad
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