Falcon84
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The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:10 am

I guess the fire-eathing conservatives are now burying Reagan Republicanism. Rush, Ann, Sean-all of them are hell-bent on taking down John McCain as not 'conservative" enough for their liking.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2008/02/04/AR2008020402798_pf.html

Well, maybe they all should read this article, chill a little, and SUPPORT the man who looks like will be the Standard-Bearer for the GOP this fall.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/06/roland.martin/index.html

A look at some of what McCain stands for:

-Extremely pro-life, a conservative position.

-Extremely pro-military, a conservative position.

-Extremely pro-gun, a conservative position.

-He supported the "Surge" in Iraq.

So, why do all of the anti-McCain conservatives hate him? Listening to Rush in a snippet on the news tonight, it's because he DARES even try to compromise with the other side, in part. Or it's because he doesn't walk, in lock-step with them on EVERY position? Or a combination of both?

I don't personally understand the mindset-which is prevalant among extremists on both sides-of not compromising. Our government works best when common ground is sought-everyone gets some of what they want, and everyone doesn't get everything they want. It's the only way to move forward and serve ALL the people. But extremists on both sides, liberal and conservative, think this is selling out.

Since we're talking about the conservative side in this instance, what is accomplished by not compromising with the Democrats when it is necessary? All that ends up happening, especially with such an equally divided nation, is, well......nothing. Nothing gets done.

What is more important? Towing strict party docrtine, or doing what is ultimately best for the nation? Is party or country more important when all is said and done.

Republicans have the most important choice they've made since Ronald Reagan was elected in 1980-to support John McCain or not to support him. If they do support him, they have the chance for an honorable man to be president, and one that will have the nerve to do what's right for ALL Americans, not just conservatives. If they don't, then they'll be wailing for the next 4 to 8 years, as either President Clinton or President Obama control the agenda in the White House, and pick at least 3 new Supreme Court justices that will decide for the next 20 years how the court goes.

It's up to them. Support what they see as an imperfect candidate, or sit and cry for the next 1 or two terms.

So, ultra-conservative Republicans: why do you hate him so much, and what now are you going to do, not that he isall but guaranteed the nomination?
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jetjack74
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:25 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
I guess the fire-eathing conservatives are now burying Reagan Republicanism. Rush, Ann, Sean-all of them are hell-bent on taking down John McCain as not 'conservative" enough for their liking.

Well, they're upset becuase of his unwillingness in the past to support making the Bush taxcuts permanant or the McCain/Feingold campaign finance reform, McCain/Kennedy Guest worker program that even Bush supported. Or the fat that McCain and the gang of 14 led to the almost filabuster of the Federal Appeals Court Appointments. He's pissed off alot of people, but that's just politics. And I tink that notion of Huckabee on is ticket my rile conservatives as well. I think McCain should ask Romney since Romney was supported by conservatives, but that won't happen since the recent attacks in the debates and in the press

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Well, maybe they all should read this article, chill a little, and SUPPORT the man who looks like will be the Standard-Bearer for the GOP this fall.

He's not my first choice, but I will vote for him if he's the nominee becuase of the Supreme Court Justices that maybe retiring.
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aloha73g
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:36 am

Conservatives problems with McCain include:

1. Immigration.....LOTS of BIG difference here
2. Campaign Finance Reform (he supported a lawsuit AGAINST a Pro-Life Group related McCain Feingold)
3. His votes against Tax Cuts (in the 1980s, and present); admittedly not fluent in economics
4. His temperment (called other Senators "F-ing Assholes;" says "F You" on the Senate Floor)
5. Contemplted leaving Republican Party in 2001
6. Approached John Kerry in 2004 about being his VP nominee
7. Said that Hillary would be a good president
8. Judges....said Alito was too conservative. Fears of another "Souter"

I have some issues with McCain, but like my favorite Talk Show host (Laura Ingraham) I will support him whole heartedly if he is the nominee. Laura Ingraham seems to be a little more "rational" about him than the other hosts. She has her issues, but can keep it all in perspective.

My biggest concern about McCain is his temper....one outburst and hes through! If someone pulls out video of his antics in the Senate and it could doom him.

-Aloha!
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Pope
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:44 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Extremely pro-life, a conservative position.

Yet he supported the nomination of several anti-life justices to the Supreme Court.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
they have the chance for an honorable man to be president, and one that will have the nerve to do what's right for ALL Americans, not just conservatives.

There are very many honorable men and women who aren't qualified to be president why should McCain be different?

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 2):
His temperment (called other Senators "F-ing Assholes;" says "F You" on the Senate Floor)

Wasn't Falcon84 going absolutely apeshit when Cheney used the f*word on the Senate floor? Didn't Falcon use that as an argument about why Cheney wasn't proper to be President?

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 2):
I will support him whole heartedly if he is the nominee. Laura Ingraham seems to be a little more "rational" about him than the other hosts. She has her issues, but can keep it all in perspective.

I don't know. It sickens me to have to vote for McCain. My current thought are that if he runs against HRC then the lesser of the two evils is McCain. But if he runs against Obama, then I really don't see much of a difference.
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RJdxer
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:58 am

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of the writer.
That about says it all right there.

He voted against the tax cuts but now says he would vote to keep them permanently. Sound eerily familiar? BTW he is in favor of a BTU type tax on energy, can anyone say Kyoto? Supreme Court justices? He helped put together the gang of 14 which effectively cut off debate on conservative nominees. He has made it clear he will sign an amnesty bill for illegal aliens which I couldn't be more against. No doubt he is an honorable man but that in and of itself means nothing. There are lots of honorable men that have run for President.

As to your assumptions

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Since we're talking about the conservative side in this instance, what is accomplished by not compromising with the Democrats when it is necessary? All that ends up happening, especially with such an equally divided nation, is, well......nothing. Nothing gets done.

And when Democrats controlled the Senate from 2000-2002 how much compromising were they willing to do? I find it funny that democrats always talk about how conservatives have to compromise when they are in charge but while in the minority say that it is their duty to oppose the majority? Remember how they claimed that there should be co-chiars on the committees? I haven't heard this suggestion since they regained the majority. Frankly, I hope McCain does win since the Congress will most likely remain in Democratic party hands. Sometimes gridlock is the best thing the average taxpayer can hope for.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Towing strict party docrtine, or doing what is ultimately best for the nation?

I don't hear Senator Reid or Speaker Pelosi talking about not towing the party line. Why should an conservative? Democrats don't talk about compromising their beliefs. Any program that they support that does not get all the funding they think it should get, gets labeled as having had it's budget cut by Republicans. Now that's working together! I'm sorry, I've seen too many examples of Democrats in general, not just extremists, say one thing to get their way and then turn around and do something else or criticize Republicans about how it could have been so much better if only they had compromised. Beliefs have to be about something, especially core beliefs and Senator McCain does not share conservatives core beliefs. He has proven that several times over.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
If they do support him, they have the chance for an honorable man to be president, and one that will have the nerve to do what's right for ALL Americans, not just conservatives.

So in other words, the conservatives should just roll over? Resistance is futile? I couldn't disagree more. Senator McCain is winning the primaries with the support of moderates and crossover voters, but he is losing the conservative vote by a large margin.
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jetjack74
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:05 am

The thing about McCain, is that he is being hyped so much by the media as the Phoenix(no pun intended)who will rise out of the ashes to make the world of politics a happy and friendly place. But their only setting him up to to tear him apart becuase they believe that he is the one Hillary and Obama can defeat the easiest. The last thing Democrats want is for the GOP to nominate someone like Romney or Thompson becuase they could easily unite the party more than McCain can. McCain's nomination will have a negative affect on the party, becuase McCain is so divisive amongst conservatives, and adding Huckabee to the ticket will make it even more divided. I'm not going to be holding my nose when and if I end up having to vote for McCain, becuase I don't think he's that bad of a guy, but the conservatives might do what they did in the last midterm election by staying home, simply becuase they don't want McCain's victory in their name. The Republican party will only solidly get behind someone who is a Reagan conservative or close to it, while the Democrats have shown that they will elect ANYONE with charisma who makes a great speech or has the name Clinton attached to it.
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RJdxer
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:05 am



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 1):
the McCain/Feingold campaign finance reform,

I don't know how that slipped my mind.

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 2):
will support him

I will vote but will be wearing a self contained hazmat suit when I do.
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Falcon84
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:15 am



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 1):
Well, they're upset becuase of his unwillingness in the past to support making the Bush taxcuts permanant or the McCain/Feingold campaign finance reform, McCain/Kennedy Guest worker program that even Bush supported.

Fair enough. But on the tax cuts, he wanted some spending limits in place as well. A good idea. Instead, Bush and the GOP spent like kids in a toystore. On the guest worker prgram, again, he's looking for compromise that will work. What's best for the nation, not for the party line, in other words.

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 2):
5. Contemplted leaving Republican Party in 2001

Never verified as far as I can tell.

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 2):
6. Approached John Kerry in 2004 about being his VP nominee

Other way around, Aloha. Kerry allegedy approached him.
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GuitrThree
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:20 am



Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 2):
Conservatives problems with McCain include:

1. Immigration.....LOTS of BIG difference here
2. Campaign Finance Reform (he supported a lawsuit AGAINST a Pro-Life Group related McCain Feingold)
3. His votes against Tax Cuts (in the 1980s, and present); admittedly not fluent in economics
4. His temperment (called other Senators "F-ing Assholes;" says "F You" on the Senate Floor)
5. Contemplted leaving Republican Party in 2001
6. Approached John Kerry in 2004 about being his VP nominee
7. Said that Hillary would be a good president
8. Judges....said Alito was too conservative. Fears of another "Souter"

And lets not forget his $1.2trillion per year Global Warming McCain-Leiberman bill...

I love it when Liberals try to tell Conservatives who we are.

Sorry, but McCain is NOT CONSERVATIVE. Falcon, you are Pro-life too, are you saying you're conservative? I think not. Just because McCain is right on a few issues, doesn't make him perfect.

If I had to vote TODAY (if McCain was the GOP nomination), I would honestly vote for Clinton or Obama. Why? I look at it this way, McCain not only will destroy this countries economy, healthcare system, give amnesty to millions who broke into our country, and lead us down the world of high taxes, but he would destroy the Republican/Conservative party for years in doing so all for the quest of his self-centered power grab. Thats just the way it is.

Clinton and Obama will lead this country even worse down the path of economic failure that will make Jimmy Carter's economy look like a picnic. I know you libs can't see it, but add up all the programs they promise, add taxes, add Global Warming taxes, add fuel taxes, etc, etc, etc, and we will in two years get back the Congress and in 4 years hopefully get a real conservative back in office.

The biggest risk to voting for them of course is the Supreme Court.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
It's up to them. Support what they see as an imperfect candidate, or sit and cry for the next 1 or two terms.

Hah. Sit around and cry? Isn't that what the Democrats have been doing the last 7 years? I mean even today, we still hear people crying about the so-called stolen election. I, for one, certainly won't be crying. I'll accept the win of the Democrats as the voice of the people and just point out the issues they bring. And trust me, that won't take much. The first time middle income people start paying higher taxes when they repeal the tax breaks it will all go down hill from there fast...

Look at it this way, I'll ENJOY the next four years of watching Clinton or Obama in the Presidential office. It will be like the 2006 House and Senate on crack... a bunch of liberals doing nothing but reaching into the pockets of hard working Americans, handing it back out to illegals and Oprah watching (or whatever daytime show they watch, like the Jerry Springer show, Montel, MTV) couch warming losers. All this while providing job approval ratings of the low teens... and you say Bush's numbers are low. Just wait for the 20% interest rates, double digit inflation hits, unemployment thru the roof... just wait.. I'll enjoy the hell out if it because thats what its going to take to show the public-school-educated voting block who continue to think government run health care is "free" that Socialism just doesn't work.
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GuitrThree
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:25 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
But on the tax cuts, he wanted some spending limits in place as well.

Thats what he is saying NOW. When he voted against them, he said "McCain correctly noted that it didn't make sense to cut taxes in a time of war, especially in ways that benefited the wealthy to such a large degree.

Look it up, its in this Newsweek Article:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/108374

Again, yet another example of McCain NOT being a conservative. AND being a flip-flopper.

I just CAN'T vote for this man. I cannot, after bashing John Kerry for being a huge flip-flopper, can I ever vote for one that is actually bigger than him. He can claim all he wants about being a conservative. But its just not true.
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aloha73g
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:36 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
Other way around, Aloha. Kerry allegedy approached him.

Laura Ingraham has played a soundbite from John Kerry on her show numerous times in which Kerry says that McCain's people engaged him in serious talks about a Kerry/McCain ticket. If you want to say that Kerry is a liar, I won't disagree.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
Never verified as far as I can tell.

I forget who confirmed it, but apparently he was going to do it but decided not to after "Jumpin' Jim" Jeffords did as he didn't want to be perceived as a "follower."

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 8):
And lets not forget his $1.2trillion per year Global Warming McCain-Leiberman bill...

Oh My God! Don't remind me!!

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 8):
I love it when Liberals try to tell Conservatives who we are.

DING, DING, DING, we have a winner!!

-Aloha!
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PA110
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:06 am

I must admit, I'm glad that the McCain nomination will marginalize the conservatives, because that's exactly where they belong... along with the ultra liberals, neither group represents mainstream America. The values of the nation as a whole lie somewhere in between, where McCain seems to feel most comfortable, and has succeeded in building bridges in the Senate in order to get work done.

I hope to see Obama in the White House, but can probably live with McCain if necessary.
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:22 am

Well what about Joe Lieberman?

A lot of Democrats can't stand him... he's too "conservative." And they abandoned him in the last election, forcing him to run as an independent, which he won resoundingly.

Don't make it sound like it's just Republicans who are too politically motivated! Speaker Pelosi had liberals protesting outside her home, because they think she was being too conservative on issues! This is the woman who went to Syria... Syria for god's sake!!!!

Face it, there are freakin' losers on both sides of politics, who see politics as war, and stop at nothing in order to destroy the other side. It's pathetic.

-UH60
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GuitrThree
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:25 am

Wow.. first you say....

Quoting PA110 (Reply 11):
the conservatives, because that's exactly where they belong... along with the ultra liberals, neither group represents mainstream America.

then you say....

Quoting PA110 (Reply 11):
I hope to see Obama in the White House,

Really? You do know that for the last two years, Obama's voting record puts him at the NUMBER 1 spot for the most liberal voting Senator? How can you say "ultra liberals (along with conservatives)" don't represent the mainstream American public but you pull for the most liberal Senator? Looks like yet another job of Obama Smoke-and-Mirrors has grabbed another victim, I mean voter... If you were true to your word, you would be supporting Hillary since she is more moderate than Obama...

Besides that, why do you say on one hand "conservatives" don't represent mainstream Americans, but it takes being an "ULTRA Liberal" before getting out of the mainstream? I find it amazing that liberals still, after two bitterly close elections that you can claim that "conservatives" aren't even close to mainstream. But then again, this is coming from someone who thinks the number one liberal senator is mainstream so it shouldn't surprise me at all.
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Falcon84
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:28 am



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 12):

Well said, UH60. I see taking care of twins hasn't dulled your mind.  Big grin
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Mir
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:57 am

It's a fantastic position for ultra-conservatives to be in, if you dislike ultra-conservatives.

They can either support McCain against whoever the Democrats put up, or they can concede the election to the Democrats. McCain may get support from independents, but he needs a decent percentage of the conservative base to support him in order to win.

It's not going to be Romney, and it's not going to be Huckabee.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 13):
You do know that for the last two years, Obama's voting record puts him at the NUMBER 1 spot for the most liberal voting Senator?

Says who? Such rankings are generally pretty subjective.

-Mir
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threeifbyair
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:23 am



Quoting Pope (Reply 3):
I don't know. It sickens me to have to vote for McCain. My current thought are that if he runs against HRC then the lesser of the two evils is McCain. But if he runs against Obama, then I really don't see much of a difference.

McCain and Obama are almost the same? What did I miss? Except for both being men, I can't think of anything.

McCain as President could end up being more conservative than he appears (which is funny, since he is a fairly conservative guy in reality). GOP members of Congress wouldn't let him get away with most of the things they disagree on, anyways, and most Democrats don't support much of his platform either. He'd need to pick a side, and I can't see that being with the Dems.

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 2):
1. Immigration.....LOTS of BIG difference here
2. Campaign Finance Reform (he supported a lawsuit AGAINST a Pro-Life Group related McCain Feingold)
3. His votes against Tax Cuts (in the 1980s, and present); admittedly not fluent in economics
4. His temperment (called other Senators "F-ing Assholes;" says "F You" on the Senate Floor)
5. Contemplted leaving Republican Party in 2001
6. Approached John Kerry in 2004 about being his VP nominee
7. Said that Hillary would be a good president
8. Judges....said Alito was too conservative. Fears of another "Souter"

Immigration - well, do conservatives hate Bush too? It was his idea...

Campaign Finance Reform - that is old news, and I don't see anyone having trouble raising money

Tax Cuts/Economics - McCain wants a balanced budget, oddly enough, and supports cutting spending. That seems to be a fiscal conservative position. How much did Bush or Reagan know about economics?

Temperment - he and Dick Cheney have that in common, then. And that isn't conservative or liberal, just bad manners.

Leaving the party - well, he's still there

John Kerry - I heard that the Kerry campaign asked him, not the other way around.

Hillary - hmm, I wonder if he actually believes that...

Judges - Stevens will probably retire soon, but McCain supported Roberts, who is pretty conservative himself.
 
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aloha73g
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:43 am



Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 16):
Immigration - well, do conservatives hate Bush too? It was his idea...

On immigration yes, I would venture that most conservatives do hate Bush's position on the issue.

Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 16):
Campaign Finance Reform - that is old news, and I don't see anyone having trouble raising money

The issue isn't so much with raising money, but the prohibition of "issue" ads within 30 or 60 days of an election.

Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 16):
Tax Cuts/Economics - McCain wants a balanced budget, oddly enough, and supports cutting spending. That seems to be a fiscal conservative position. How much did Bush or Reagan know about economics?

Reagan & Bush both supported spending cuts, however with the way Congress likes to fund their "pet projects" (earmarks) it will probably never happen. Either way, both did not do enough to cut spending.....veto something Mr. Bush....ANYTHING.

Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 16):
Temperment - he and Dick Cheney have that in common, then. And that isn't conservative or liberal, just bad manners.

Agreed, but it doesn't make it right, or a valuable personal trait.

Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 16):
John Kerry - I heard that the Kerry campaign asked him, not the other way around.

Quotes from an interview with Mr. Kerry:
Jonathan Singer: There's a story in The Hill, I think on Tuesday, by Bob Cusack on the front page of the paper talking about how John McCain's people -- John Weaver -- had approached Tom Daschle and a New York Congressman, I don't remember his name, about switching parties. And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about what your discussions were with him in 2004, how far it went, who approached whom... if there was any "there" there.

John Kerry: I don't know all the details of it. I know that Tom, from a conversation with him, was in conversation with a number of Republicans back then. It doesn't surprise me completely because his people similarly approached me to engage in a discussion about his potentially being on the ticket as Vice President. So his people were active -- let's put it that way.

Singer: Okay. And just to confirm, you said it, but this is something they approached you rather than...

Kerry: Absolutely correct. John Weaver of his shop...
from http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/4/3/11936/97033

Again, if you want to assert that Kerry is a liar, I won't fight you.

Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 16):
Hillary - hmm, I wonder if he actually believes that...

Considering everything else on this list, I wouldn't be surprised if he did. Sad

Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 16):
Judges - Stevens will probably retire soon, but McCain supported Roberts, who is pretty conservative himself.

True, but many conservatives are worried that McCain would choose a justice who agrees with him on important issues like Campaign Finance Reform, Enemy Combatants/Inerrogation (torture?), etc.
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threeifbyair
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:00 am



Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 17):
Again, if you want to assert that Kerry is a liar, I won't fight you.

He very well could have been. You know how political spin works - Kerry doesn't want to be seen as being "desperate" by asking McCain to be his VP, so he claims McCain's people were talking to him. Regardless, McCain obviously turned him down.

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 17):
True, but many conservatives are worried that McCain would choose a justice who agrees with him on important issues like Campaign Finance Reform, Enemy Combatants/Inerrogation (torture?), etc.

If someone won't support McCain because he doesn't approve of torture, maybe they should try out the cattle prod for a bit and see how much fun it is.  Yeah sure

On most conservative issues, McCain's Supreme Court choice would probably fit right in. On issues like abortion, private property rights (please, someone stop eminent domain abuse), etc., conservative values would not be in danger.
 
EvilForce
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:17 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
McCain may get support from independents, but he needs a decent percentage of the conservative base to support him in order to win.

Actually that isn't the case at all. The punditry says that, but it's simply not true. Let the whack jobs sit the election out and be exposed as really quite irrelevant to the process. You don't need em. I've never understood why you bother trying to placate them, (Either extreme right or left) as they will never be happy anyway. Screw em.

But it is amusing to hear all the cries that McCain isn't a "Reagan Republican". Hmmm......let's review shall we:

1.) Reagan grew the size of government considerably after claiming he was going to axe the entire Dept of Energy, and Dept of Education. Instead he created an entirely new one, called Dept. of Veterans Affairs. In fact the number of workers on the federal payroll rose by 61,000 under Reagan. (By comparison, under Clinton, the number fell by 373,000.)

2.) The right's desire to have Reagan outlaw abortion was never seriously pursued or even attempted.

3.) Reagan broke with the hardliners in his administration and compromised with the Soviets on arms control.

4.) Reagan when faced with the terrorist bombing of Lebanon, tucked tail and withdrew our troops.

5.) His assault on entitlements never materialized; instead he saved Social Security in 1983 by raising taxes.

6.) Reagan raised taxes a grand total of four times just between 1982-84. In 1986 under the guise of "Tax Reform", Reagan raised corporate taxes by $120 billion over five years (that's in 1986 dollars too) and closed corporate tax loopholes worth about $300 billion. Conservatives in his own administration were apoplectic. In addition, Reagan under his "Reform Act" initiated the horror that conservatives can't stand; the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC).

And before I have to hear the inaccurate "yeah but Congress didn't cut the budget" excuse (Which I've never understood the illogical leaps conservatives make. Reagan gets all the credit for cutting taxes and no blame for not cutting spending, and the Congress gets all the blame for spending. Bizarre.) In many years in fact Reagan submitted budgets that had every bit as much spending in them, as what Congress actually approved. In fact in one, if not two years Congress approved a budget SMALLER than Reagan submitted overall. As an example in 1989, Reagan submitted a budget for $ 1.1 trillion. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...940DE7D91138F931A25751C0A96E948260 The final budget that Congress approved? $ 1.14 trillion. http://origin.www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy09/pdf/2009_tab_hist-1.pdf

7.) The Reagan Amnesty bill of 1986. Nuff said.

And I could go on and on and on. But it's these very things that helped make him a popular and "great" President. He knew when it was time to compromise, and get the people's work done.

So if you don't consider McCain a "Reagan Conservative", you are simply wrong. Facts are stubborn things ya know.

[Edited 2008-02-06 22:19:51]
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
mham001
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:21 am

I wouldn't vote for him solely on his immigration stance. Anti immigration feelings are not solely a conservative issue. I don' much care about the other points listed, but all I really want to see the current laws enforced, and the immigration problem will go away. We are seeing signs of that now.
I would vote for Hillary over McCain, Obama I'd have to think about. I'd really need to see how the Congressional races are going.
 
pwm2txlhopper
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:38 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
So, why do all of the anti-McCain conservatives hate him?

A lot him them dislike him because of his stance on the southern border and "ILLEGAL" immigration. This is a serious issue, as serious as any other issue facing our country, and a lot of voters want somebody tough on this. Where he's lacking on this issue is something people don't want to compromise on. Particularly large populations of Republican voters who've either been directly or indirectly affected by illegal immigration. One example of indirect results of illegal immigration that we've all experienced is exorbitant health care expenses,unaffordable insurance, and loss of health insurance being provided by employers.. These increase in large part because of all the illegals skipping out on hospital bills everytime they go to the ER. To make up lost money, hospitals, doctors and insurance agencies charge higher prices for services. At the same time, a lot of Democrats want universal health care, and this is impossible for the US to do because simply put, we just can't afford it in a country of our size! We don't live in places like Norway, Sweden, or even Canada that can afford to pay for universal health care because they only have ten million people.

I'm a right leaning, registered Independent with a few liberal tendencies thrown in the mix. I'm pretty much neutral on my opinion of McCain, but I can't say any of this years candidates are particularly attractive to me.

[Edited 2008-02-06 22:41:14]
 
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PA110
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:38 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 13):
Besides that, why do you say on one hand "conservatives" don't represent mainstream Americans, but it takes being an "ULTRA Liberal" before getting out of the mainstream? I find it amazing that liberals still, after two bitterly close elections that you can claim that "conservatives" aren't even close to mainstream. But then again, this is coming from someone who thinks the number one liberal senator is mainstream so it shouldn't surprise me at all.

Blah blah blah... For the record, I want to see Obama, because he stands for a fundamental change in attitude and tone of government. It's time that we stop electing morons who can't do anything other than tell us what to fear and who's to blame. Obama brings the promise of inspiring the best and brightest to come serve the public, instead of the rampant cronyism the last 8 years have brought us.

And ya know what? I don't really care what you think. At the end of the day, I'm just enjoying the discomfort you feel with your choices. And that gives me no end of joy! With Huckadoodle and Romney out of contention, I can live with with "any of the above".

[Edited 2008-02-06 23:08:02]
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
EvilForce
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:52 am



Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 21):
One example of indirect results of illegal immigration that we've all experienced is exorbitant health care expenses,unaffordable insurance, and loss of health insurance being provided by employers.. These increase in large part because of all the illegals skipping out on hospital bills everytime they go to the ER.

Nope, you're wrong.

As we discussed in the other thread on that very subject, even the administrators of the hospitals in question admitted the "illegals" were better at paying their bills than the regular Joe Citizen.

Also, the hospitals that are being "crushed", like the one so many like to use as an example in Houston, actually ran almost an $ 8 million SURPLUS in the maternity ward alone.

But it's simply easier to blame everything on those "darned illegal Mexicans". After all the Germans had the Jews to blame for all their economic problems too. The Germans now blame the Turks. The central Europeans blame the Gypsies. The Mexicans blame the El Salvadorans.

As the other thread also proved, even for all the "costs" of illegal immigration added, their respective taxes paid, etc... that illegal immigration actually ADDS almost 1% to the yearly income of the average Joe American.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:13 am



Quoting PA110 (Reply 22):
esides that, why do you say on one hand "conservatives" don't represent mainstream Americans, but it takes being an "ULTRA Liberal" before getting out of the mainstream?

This is one of those issues where the liberals are out of touch with reality! The fact that they truly believe most of the country's population is progressive, secular and liberal. Now it's true most young people under 35 tend to lean to the left, as well as the population in urban areas of the Northeast or places like Seattle and San Francisco. However, the reality is 60-65% American identify themselves as being Traditional, and non-secular. (Meaning they practice a religious faith, believed in a higher power, or were spiritual in some other sense) Also, America has the highest percentage of citizens from a Western country who still regularly or occasionally attend religious services.

Then you have the success of Fox news, which the libs love to go postal about. They like to say how inaccurate it is, but yet they usually have never even watched it more then a minute. But anyway, FOX news ratings have blown CNN, MSNBC, and all the other network's ratings out of the water! They've only been on the air half the amount of years as these others, and simply put, more people choose FOX than any other network because it's from a perspective they can relate to! There's also talk radio.... For years, right leaning talk radio has enjoyed success and profit, but Left leaning talk radio always fails! Air America only lasted as long as it did because the founder was pouring in tons of money to finance it and keep it on the air. Left leaning talk radio doesn't work for the same reason liberal news doesn't work. The overwhelming majority of the population in the USA are traditional conservatives, and they don't buy the oppositions kooky outlook on things. That's the same reason modern Democrats loose presidential elections, because they are out of touch with who mainstream Americans are, and they tend to pander to those with liberal politics or the younger generation. Sure this is a lot of people, millions, but the numbers don't out number those of traditional mainstream America.

Sure in places like NYC, San Francisco, Los Angeles there's a secular left leaning society and culture that makes ups millions, and gives those people in it the false impression that's the way everybody thinks in America, but they don't outnumber those in smaller cities, and towns around the country, or even other larger cities that hold a more traditional and conservative view. Especially large areas of the Midwest, and South. You'll often hear libs just dismiss these as the uneducated, the ignorant, close minded , and the non civilized simpletons. Probably a lot are, but I bet it doesn't outnumber those who are just down home conservatives with and traditional views, morals, and values? Just look at how quick non-southerner's often jump to the conclusion somebodies a redneck just because of their accent, when in fact they might be doctor or somebody else that's highly educated. Assumptions without merit. In turn this all comes back to Lib's being completely out of touch about who mainstream America is.
 
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:37 am



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 23):
As the other thread also proved, even for all the "costs" of illegal immigration added, their respective taxes paid, etc... that illegal immigration actually ADDS almost 1% to the yearly income of the average Joe American.



I don't see them paying any income tax. Who cares about sales tax, that's nothing in comparison! I also don't see them paying car insurance for their shit box cars without valid inspection stickers, or paying any compensation to other drivers who they hit. I also see their kids getting free education financed out of my tax dollars that are intended to fund legal American children's education. The only thing I do see is them getting pulled over for driving without a valid license and then getting off with a warning or summons they'll never show up for. I, as a legal American would be cuffed and sent to jail for the night if I were caught driving with a suspended license or with no license at all!

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 23):
Nope, you're wrong.

As we discussed in the other thread on that very subject, even the administrators of the hospitals in question admitted the "illegals" were better at paying their bills than the regular Joe Citizen.



If that's what you want to believe, than go ahead and don't let me stop you. But you might also want to research all the hospital's within 100 miles of the border, many of which are the only medical facilities for communities for miles, who've been forced to close due to illegals jumping out on paying for services. There's plenty of press releases out there with those same hospitals Administrator's directly attributing abuse of illegals for the closures. It's not right for legal Americans to skip out either, but at least they're suppose to be here and covered by laws stating they must receive emergency care. Illegals aren't suppose to be here in the first place. Same with drunk driving deaths, more people per year are killed by illegals on our roads than are soldiers in Iraq. Sure, happens with legal Americans too, but regardless, the illegals aren't suppose to be here and in turn there would be thousands of lives saved on the roads each year if they weren't.

If they want to come to America than I have no problem with that, but until then, get on the list of people that have been waiting penitently to enter the country legally for years. Not only is it not fair for me as an American for you to be here, but it's not fair to your fellow Central Americans who've applied to come here the right way.
 
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:58 am

The way I see it I as a real conservative I have 2 options in the general election should Mccain get the nomination. Write in a candidate or vote for one of the fringe parties (I lean libertarian but need to do more research). Not casting a ballot or voting for a candidate I do not belive in is not an option for me. As a LEGAL immigrant I value my citizenship with all its privaleges and responsibilites too much. I've voted in every election local, state and national, I've been eligible for since getting my citizenship.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
andessmf
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:24 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
and SUPPORT the man who looks like will be the Standard-Bearer for the GOP this fall.

Why the hell do you care? Your opinion will not change regardless of what is stated here.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:33 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
A look at some of what McCain stands for:

-Extremely pro-life, a conservative position.

-Extremely pro-military, a conservative position.

-Extremely pro-gun, a conservative position.

-He supported the "Surge" in Iraq.



Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 2):
Conservatives problems with McCain include:

1. Immigration.....LOTS of BIG difference here
2. Campaign Finance Reform (he supported a lawsuit AGAINST a Pro-Life Group related McCain Feingold)
3. His votes against Tax Cuts (in the 1980s, and present); admittedly not fluent in economics
4. His temperment (called other Senators "F-ing Assholes;" says "F You" on the Senate Floor)
5. Contemplted leaving Republican Party in 2001
6. Approached John Kerry in 2004 about being his VP nominee
7. Said that Hillary would be a good president
8. Judges....said Alito was too conservative. Fears of another "Souter"



Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 8):
And lets not forget his $1.2trillion per year Global Warming McCain-Leiberman bill...

Senator McCain is no conservative...................

Let's not forget he wants to close Gitmo, and give the terrorist US Constitutional, as well as Geneva Convention Rights.

No, no, no, no, no.  banghead 

Governor Romney is the one man who is truely conservative here, not Senator Mccain, and certinately not Governor Hickabee.

While I honor McCain's US Naval service, that is where the line ends with me, for him.

Clearly the NVA wacked him one to many times in the head with that baseball bat.

If it is McCain vs. Obama, I will vote for Obama.

If it is McCain vs. Clinton, I will not vote for the POTUS.

In other words, if the country is going to get screwed over the next four years, I don't want a Republican doing it. I can "kill" two birds with one stone (vote) here. I don't vote for McCain, and the Democrats get blaimed for all that will go wrong.
 
Mir
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:13 am



Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 24):
The overwhelming majority of the population in the USA are traditional conservatives, and they don't buy the oppositions kooky outlook on things.

If that's the case, then why is McCain running away with the GOP nomination? He's not the one who appeals most to those "traditional conservatives", yet he's very clearly in the lead.

The USA is moving away from the "traditional conservative" fad just like any other fad once its time is up. Fun for a bit, but in retrospect we look back and wonder how we ever found it attractive.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
andessmf
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:29 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 29):

Again, why do you give a rat's ass? Are YOU going to vote for him?

Quoting Mir (Reply 29):
If that's the case, then why is McCain running away with the GOP nomination?

Three-way races have a tendency to split the votes, where the two favorite candidates get the overall majority of the vote together, but less alone than a less desired candidate.

Quoting Mir (Reply 29):
"traditional conservative" fad

Wow...
 
Mir
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:32 am



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 30):
Again, why do you give a rat's ass? Are YOU going to vote for him?

If it's between him and Hillary, yes I probably would. If it were between him and Obama, I still might.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
andessmf
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:49 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 31):

You don't have to justify your choices to me, and neither do I have to justify my choices to you. Though I'm pretty certain that if Obama gets the nod, I'd vote for him.
 
Mir
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:00 am



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 32):
neither do I have to justify my choices to you.

I don't believe I asked you to.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Falcon84
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:47 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 4):
Senator McCain is winning the primaries with the support of moderates and crossover voters, but he is losing the conservative vote by a large margin.

Maybe that's an indication of just how impotent the extreme conservative "base" of the party really is. If McCain is winning despite losing so many ultra-conservative voters, maybe that tells you how much of a true minority that bloc is. And if he's winning those moderates in the primaries, there's a good bet he'll win some more come the fall, and may not need the conservative vote.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 8):
a bunch of liberals doing nothing but reaching into the pockets of hard working Americans, handing it back out to illegals and Oprah watching (or whatever daytime show they watch, like the Jerry Springer show, Montel, MTV) couch warming losers.

Which shows that your characterization of "liberals" far off base as to be void of any reality. Tell me, GT, who are the couch-warming losers sitting at home all day who call Rush Limbaugh all the time, and stroke his microphone? A bunch of ultra-conservatives who can't see the center if they had the hubble telescope at the ready?

Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 16):
McCain and Obama are almost the same? What did I miss? Except for both being men, I can't think of anything.

That's what is funny. Some of these guys are so far to the right that they can't see a difference, or don't even try, even though there's a huge difference.

Problem is, some of our so-called "conservatives" on here, are to the right of real conservatives, like McCain, and if someone doesn't agree 100% with them, or dare even think of compromise with "the enemy", i.e., liberals, they're vilified.

That's what needs to be determined here-what IS conservative? McCain IS a conservative. Those to the right of him, who hate him, are extremists. McCain has been conservative long before any of them were sucking on their mommy's tits.

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 24):
This is one of those issues where the liberals are out of touch with reality! The fact that they truly believe most of the country's population is progressive, secular and liberal.

While you believe most are conservative, evangelical. Neither is true. Most are somehwere towards the center-some a little to the left, some a little to the right. The fact McCain is trouncing his "conservative" rivals despite not getting what you call the "conservative" vote is testament to that. Most ARE towards the middle.

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 24):
However, the reality is 60-65% American identify themselves as being Traditional, and non-secular. (Meaning they practice a religious faith, believed in a higher power, or were spiritual in some other sense)

Which includes a lot of people you would define as "liberal". The fact that you and others think liberals are Godless people shows just how out-of-touch you are.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 27):
Why the hell do you care? Your opinion will not change regardless of what is stated here.

As someone interested in politics, and the future of this nation, I care, and I'm interested. You make it sound like I have no right to ask. I'm not looking for my opinion-i'm looking for that of those who call themselves "Conservative", and why they don't like John McCain. If you don't want to participate, Andes, that's fine, but don't tell me I can't ask, or that I don't care.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 28):
Let's not forget he wants to close Gitmo, and give the terrorist US Constitutional, as well as Geneva Convention Rights.

Mercy! Human rights in America! What will we stoop to next. Get a grip, dude.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
EvilForce
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:10 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 28):
While I honor McCain's US Naval service, that is where the line ends with me, for him.

Clearly the NVA wacked him one to many times in the head with that baseball bat.

What a disgusting sentiment. What a complete lack of respect you show a veteran and a patriot. John McCain spent 5 years in the Hanoi Hilton being tortured and fighting for his country. A man who knows what torture is. But because you disagree with him, you claim that the man is mentally ill from "being whacked in the head by the North Vietnamese one too many times". I don't agree with the man's politics, but I respect him greatly. You've claimed to be a military supporter KC135. Show a little respect!

I must say I do find it amusing that no one has bothered to refute the facts of my post above showing that Reagan wasn't the end all, be all, of the Republican party. Too funny.  laughing   laughing 

[Edited 2008-02-07 05:16:37]
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:19 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 35):

Oh calm down. No need to get hysterical over the issue... I highly doubt that KC135 -- a man who has served for many years in the USAF -- was truly trying to show disrespect towards John McCain.

You don't need to flip out over everything, you know.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
mham001
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:20 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 23):
Nope, you're wrong.

As we discussed in the other thread on that very subject, even the administrators of the hospitals in question admitted the "illegals" were better at paying their bills than the regular Joe Citizen.


As the other thread also proved, even for all the "costs" of illegal immigration added, their respective taxes paid, etc... that illegal immigration actually ADDS almost 1% to the yearly income of the average Joe American.

You conveniently dismissed the LA hospital system.

Nothing was "proved" in the other thread.
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:23 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 35):
I must say I do find it amusing that no one has bothered to refute the facts of my post above showing that Reagan wasn't the end all, be all, of the Republican party. Too funny.

I think what is amusing is, that as time goes by, the legend of Reagan is really different from the reality. They talk about 'Reagan Conservatives", but what did Reagan do?

-He spent through the roof.

-He did so by raising taxes.

-He was willing to compromise with those on the other side of the aisle, and didn't see them as "the enemy".

-He wasn't and ideologue.

-He increased greatly the size of government.


Now, all these years, we've been led to believe the "conservatives" have been for fiscal responsibility, lower taxes, not compromising with liberals on anything, ideologically towing the line, and for smaller government, yet under the last THREE Republican presidents, spending has gone through the roof, government has been getting bigger and bigger, and, with two of them, there was willingness to compromise.

Maybe it's the "conservatives" who brand themselves as such are the ones out of touch.

And if the Reagan Revolution is truly dead, it's has to be "Morning in America", because it wasn't all it was cracked up to be.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
EvilForce
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:31 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 38):
I think what is amusing is, that as time goes by, the legend of Reagan is really different from the reality. They talk about 'Reagan Conservatives", but what did Reagan do?

Yup, I think it's part and parcel to their identity. They can't admit to themselves that George W, embodied everything they wanted in an uber-conservative, yet the policies have failed greatly. So they need to recreate a mental image that the very conservative views DO WORK, by air-brushing Reagan. They have always blamed Democrats for the shortfalls of any of their ideas. That their ideas would have worked "if only" the Democrats had done ________________. For them to admit, that for 6 years while they held the majority in the House, the Senate, and the White House their leaders spent like drunken sailors, passing legislation increasing the size, responsibility, and intrusiveness of the very thing which they claim they are opposed to.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
Pope
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:58 pm



Quoting PA110 (Reply 11):
I must admit, I'm glad that the McCain nomination will marginalize the conservatives, because that's exactly where they belong.

If McCain wins the presidency then your statement about conservatives being marginalized is 100% correct. But if McCain wins the nomination and looses the general election because conservatives don't show up to support him, your statement completely wrong and in fact the conservative edge of the party is strengthened.

Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 16):
Immigration - well, do conservatives hate Bush too? It was his idea...

Repeat after me. GWB is not a conservative and has never been one. He confuses religion with conservatism. The only things W has been conservative on is social issue because of his religious pandering and defense/national security. Even on social issues what is characterized as conservative is actually an affront to true conservatives who don't believe in government intervention the lives of the individual. He pays lip service to fiscal conservatism but is very much for an activist Fed policy, uncontrolled spending, and doesn't have the balls to really support true supply side tax cuts.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
EvilForce
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:00 pm



Quoting Pope (Reply 40):
He confuses religion with conservatism.

He's not the only one. A large contingent of the right wing feel as GW does.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:14 pm



Quoting Pope (Reply 40):
If McCain wins the presidency then your statement about conservatives being marginalized is 100% correct. But if McCain wins the nomination and looses the general election because conservatives don't show up to support him, your statement completely wrong and in fact the conservative edge of the party is strengthened.

 rotfl 

How does being a minority in both branches-and most likely, the third branch, strengthen the party? That's absurd, Pope. It'll mean that Conservatism as we've known it-as you've known it since the Reagan days, is no longer the force in the party. Maybe, just MAYBE, true conservatives-you know, the kind that don't want to spend us into oblivion and who actually think it's a good idea to compromise when needed-are tired of having their party hijacked by political militants on the right who want to ignore everyone else, and vilify anyone who doesn't walk goose-step with them? Maybe after the way the GOP has acted since 1992, full of hatred and contempt towards everyone else, is coming to an end. That would be a good thing for the Grand Old Party, and for the nation as a whole.

I mean, don't you get a LITTLE tired of the hate-fest that the far right has bestowed on everyone else for the last 16 years?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
wingnut767
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:19 pm



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 1):
Well, they're upset becuase of his unwillingness in the past to support making the Bush taxcuts permanant or the McCain/Feingold campaign finance reform, McCain/Kennedy Guest worker program that even Bush supported. Or the fat that McCain and the gang of 14 led to the almost filabuster of the Federal Appeals Court Appointments. He's pissed off alot of people, but that's just politics.



Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 2):
. Immigration.....LOTS of BIG difference here
2. Campaign Finance Reform (he supported a lawsuit AGAINST a Pro-Life Group related McCain Feingold)
3. His votes against Tax Cuts (in the 1980s, and present); admittedly not fluent in economics
4. His temperment (called other Senators "F-ing Assholes;" says "F You" on the Senate Floor)
5. Contemplted leaving Republican Party in 2001
6. Approached John Kerry in 2004 about being his VP nominee
7. Said that Hillary would be a good president
8. Judges....said Alito was too conservative. Fears of another "Souter"



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 4):
BTW he is in favor of a BTU type tax on energy, can anyone say Kyoto?



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 4):
don't hear Senator Reid or Speaker Pelosi talking about not towing the party line. Why should an conservative?



Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 8):
And lets not forget his $1.2trillion per year Global Warming McCain-Leiberman bill...

I love it when Liberals try to tell Conservatives who we are.

Sorry, but McCain is NOT CONSERVATIVE. Falcon, you are Pro-life too, are you saying you're conservative? I think not. Just because McCain is right on a few issues, doesn't make him perfect.

If I had to vote TODAY (if McCain was the GOP nomination), I would honestly vote for Clinton or Obama. Why? I look at it this way, McCain not only will destroy this countries economy, healthcare system, give amnesty to millions who broke into our country, and lead us down the world of high taxes, but he would destroy the Republican/Conservative party for years in doing so all for the quest of his self-centered power grab. Thats just the way it is.

Because of all of the above I would do the same as GuitrThree. It is not about the republican party line but about the Conservative philosophy and what we think is best for this country. Compromise or comprehensive mean one thing in DC, and that is that we all are getting screwed. I do not see any Libs jumping over the Aisle to support conservative plans. This whole we need to reach across is only going one way. The Republican party needs to get its A$$ handed to them and then maybe they will clear out all of these RINO's. I would rather lose with a candidate that has my beliefs than win with one who is watering down our party and swinging it more to the right. We are in danger of letting it become a one party system. If that happens then we are finished as a country. The apathy of the American voter will be the end of this great experiment.
Yakum purkan min shmaya
 
EvilForce
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:28 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 42):
How does being a minority in both branches-and most likely, the third branch, strengthen the party? That's absurd, Pope. It'll mean that Conservatism as we've known it-as you've known it since the Reagan days, is no longer the force in the party. Maybe, just MAYBE, true conservatives-you know, the kind that don't want to spend us into oblivion and who actually think it's a good idea to compromise when needed-are tired of having their party hijacked by political militants on the right who want to ignore everyone else, and vilify anyone who doesn't walk goose-step with them? Maybe after the way the GOP has acted since 1992, full of hatred and contempt towards everyone else, is coming to an end. That would be a good thing for the Grand Old Party, and for the nation as a whole.

I mean, don't you get a LITTLE tired of the hate-fest that the far right has bestowed on everyone else for the last 16 years?

Yup. Many on this site would consider me a left wing loon. I voted for Reagan in my high school mock election. I was 18 to vote for George Bush Sr, both the first time, and the 2nd time. I did vote for Bill Clinton the 2nd term. Bill Clinton was only the 2nd Democrat in any office I voted for. I voted for the 1994 Newt Gingrich plan of Contract With America. What those Republicans did made my stomach turn.

Instead of keeping their focus on making government smaller, and less intrusive, they spend tons of political capital placating the single issue voters of guns and abortion. They wanted to defund social programs, while increasing the reach of the radical Christian agenda. Religion IMO has no place, (zero, none, nadda, zip, zilch) in govt. It was the zeal which they pursued Clinton at every turn blasting him about his "morality" and brining govt to a standstill, while (as usual) being hypocrites in their own life. Newt Gingrich's own immoral ways coming to light made me laugh.

So I consider myself a pro-business Democrat. Since the 1994 take over, I have voted for one, and only one Republican in any office, anywhere. The past 3 election cycles I have voted str8 Democratic tickets. Period. I have seen what Republican's really are about once they get in power. It's scary. It would take a complete reformulation of the party for them to win me, and people like me back.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
Pope
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:43 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 42):
How does being a minority in both branches-and most likely, the third branch, strengthen the party?

Again, in your haste to ridicule, you didn't even take the time to read. I never said the party was strengthened. I said the conservative wing of the party is strengthed by showing that a candidate cannot win under the GOP banner unless s/he carries the base.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 42):
I mean, don't you get a LITTLE tired of the hate-fest that the far right has bestowed on everyone else for the last 16 years?

First of all what hate fest? I'll admit that there are some religious conservatives who have (as I said above) confused religious extremism with conservativism. That is clearly wrong and I 100% disavow their actions and positions. But there is a tremendous number of fiscally conservative / libertarian on social issues members of the GOP that feel that the party has left us not the other way around. The mainstream member of the GOP is not an extremist but we have allowed that segment of the party to have too much control. Focusing too much on social issues at the expense of our true conservative values. What you're seeing now is a rebirth of the conservative party. Like a forest that must undergo the savages of wildfire from time to time, the GOP is being tested. But I'm 100% confident that the party that emerges after this (and it's quite possible that it will require that we hit rock bottom first) will be stronger.

Secondly, aren't you tired of being miserable all the time? Of living life feeling sorry for yourself instead of taking the reigns of your life and making a better future for yourself and your family? The unifying theme of liberals on this forum is that they blame everyone else in life for their own failures - for their lack of success (be that personal or financial). Hatred consumes you. Just go back and read some of the absurd things you wrong during the 2004 campaign. It really is so sad. I think you know how sad it was in that you self-deleted Alpha1 and came back as Falcon84 in a feeble attempt to distance yourself from the very hatred you criticize - sort of hypocritical in a very ironic way. If anyone has posted hatred and pure venom on these boards over the past 5+ years I've been around, it's you. I bet we could could 5 or 10x as many insults and personal attacts on conservatives and have been posted the other way. You alone probably make up a good 10-20% of these types of posts.

While the GOP is in trouble, I would caution you about counting anyone out. As late as June / July of 04 "anybody but Bush" was leading the candidate George Bush by a 3 and almost 4 to 1 ratio. You were laughing your ass off with plenty of little smilies and emoticons all over your posts. Well we all know how that turned out.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
EvilForce
Posts: 974
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:12 am

RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:57 pm



Quoting Pope (Reply 45):
The unifying theme of liberals on this forum is that they blame everyone else in life for their own failures - for their lack of success (be that personal or financial). Hatred consumes you.

LMAO. Is that the Drug Limbaugh flavored Kool Aid they are passing around these days?

Given the Senate race in 08, even if McCain wins the White House, it looks like the Dems will pick up at least another 6 Senate seats, if not 8 or more. The House quite likely will pick up another 20 to 30 Democrats as well. Also, in the Gubernatorial races the Dems will probably pick up 1 new state, possibly 2.

I'm ok with that.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
Pope
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:17 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 46):
LMAO. Is that the Drug Limbaugh flavored Kool Aid they are passing around these days?

I think you really should take some time reading what people like Falcon84 and TedTAce write all the time about their life. It seems that whether times are good or times are bad the blame always falls on somebody else.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 46):
Given the Senate race in 08, even if McCain wins the White House, it looks like the Dems will pick up at least another 6 Senate seats, if not 8 or more. The House quite likely will pick up another 20 to 30 Democrats as well. Also, in the Gubernatorial races the Dems will probably pick up 1 new state, possibly 2.

That's very likely.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
EvilForce
Posts: 974
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:12 am

RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:21 pm



Quoting Pope (Reply 47):
I think you really should take some time reading what people like Falcon84 and TedTAce write all the time about their life. It seems that whether times are good or times are bad the blame always falls on somebody else.

Well you said "liberals on this forum", so I thought you were talking about all of us. I can't say I know what the two posters you mention usually post, so I'm not sure if that's an accurate representation or not.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
ltbewr
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RE: The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives

Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:23 pm

Perhaps one factor for the Conservatives being against McCain is they fear they will not be able to manipulate him like they do with GWB or were able to do with Reagan.
I think we are seeing a splintering of the Conservatives as some may want to be more moderate to get the votes for the Republicans to win, thus keep their power positions, but others who would lose their power positions in a McCain administration. Some of the so-called Conservatives may feel they will lose their ability to influence on critical issues including the war in Iraq, the military, business deregulation, lower taxes, lower government spending especially as to entitlements, immigration, fewer worker protections, values issues. There may also be fears of McCain being more pragmatic as to key issues, appoint more moderate persons in his cabinet and the courts.

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